It has been demonstrated that best Kangashkan set is the one that PUP/Return/SuckerPunch/Crunch, because it only has 2 or 3 counters. You can also make an argument about the SeismicToss/Wish one, but only because IT FEELS SO OUT OF PLACE that it catches a lot of players out of guard.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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in one day this thread is more convincing than the Gengarite thread, and that thread was the very definition of one sided.
I think think we are done here. if the council doesn't quick ban this thing i will be disappointed.
I think think we are done here. if the council doesn't quick ban this thing i will be disappointed.
You are Absol-utley right. It's obvious this thing should be banned and the anti ban side being crushed.
Well, looks like I got to the party when it's going full steam.
I think that Mega Kangaskhan should not be banned.
I have personally made at least 5 teams around this guy in Pokebank, and Mega Kanga far from guarantees a win. It operates similar to any other sweeper, and has just as many checks. Volcarona has Heatran, M-Kanga has Keldeo. Keldeo resits its only source of priority, and outspeeds and OHKOs it. All you have to do to stop a M-Kanga sweep is put in a Keldeo, and go for the Sacred Sword. STAB+ Super Effective will do Kanga in.
For non-anecdotal evidence, let me reference the last ban debate. Gengarite was banned for its capability to offer next to perfect support, without anything able to effectively oppose it. As the metagame has evolved up to this point, it seems to be leaning strongly towards physical defense. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, and others are becoming more and more prevalent than ever, while special cannons like Latios and special walls like Blissey are being substituted for things that can handle physical hits as well, like Heatran. This is due in no small part to the physical threats of this generation, like Talonflame, M-Luke, Char-X, M-Kanga, Aegislash, and others. This means that removing a physical threat like Kanga will not fix or alter the flow of the meta. It will simply be one less threat for teams to deal with, instead of something that can help shape the meta due to how teams prepare for it.
In reference to the "Portrait of an Uber" thread, this is what is listed as the qualities for an offensive Uber:
Kanga is also very susceptible to passive damage. With Drain Punch as it's only form of effective (offensive) recovery, it has a hard time staying the battle unless it can pull of a sweep. Priority, status (Esp. Burn), Stealth Rocks, and Spikes all keep Kanga's number of switch-ins limited. If it chooses to run Drain Punch it must give up one of the things that makes it such a potent sweeper: Priority, Strong STAB, Boosting, or Coverage. "But what about Wish/Seismic Toss?" By definition, that is not a sweeper. It hits hard, yes. However, it does not have the sweeping prowess of normal M-Kanga. Seismic Toss is also reasonably gimmicky, since it (again) cannot deal with Ghosts, anything with a reasonable amount of bulk that runs substitute (and let's be honest; most things with a large ammount of HP bulk love to run sub). It also has to 2HKO, since almost nothing in OU has less than 200 HP. This allows opponents to switch in Ghosts, Recover, or hit Kanga with status.
In closing, Kanga is good, but it is nothing new. I would support suspect testing it, but under no circumstances should it be insta-banned. It does not have the ability to sweep the Meta unopposed, and therefore does not fit the qualification for an Uber. It is not uncounterable. If it wants to live long enough to take advantage of its bulk, it has to diminish its sweeping capabilities. If it goes defensive, it becomes easier to counter, and only succeeds in changing its counters, not removing them.
I think that Mega Kangaskhan should not be banned.
I have personally made at least 5 teams around this guy in Pokebank, and Mega Kanga far from guarantees a win. It operates similar to any other sweeper, and has just as many checks. Volcarona has Heatran, M-Kanga has Keldeo. Keldeo resits its only source of priority, and outspeeds and OHKOs it. All you have to do to stop a M-Kanga sweep is put in a Keldeo, and go for the Sacred Sword. STAB+ Super Effective will do Kanga in.
For non-anecdotal evidence, let me reference the last ban debate. Gengarite was banned for its capability to offer next to perfect support, without anything able to effectively oppose it. As the metagame has evolved up to this point, it seems to be leaning strongly towards physical defense. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, and others are becoming more and more prevalent than ever, while special cannons like Latios and special walls like Blissey are being substituted for things that can handle physical hits as well, like Heatran. This is due in no small part to the physical threats of this generation, like Talonflame, M-Luke, Char-X, M-Kanga, Aegislash, and others. This means that removing a physical threat like Kanga will not fix or alter the flow of the meta. It will simply be one less threat for teams to deal with, instead of something that can help shape the meta due to how teams prepare for it.
In reference to the "Portrait of an Uber" thread, this is what is listed as the qualities for an offensive Uber:
Kanga has the "capable of sweeping through a signifigant portion of teams" part down pat, and that is where all of the adversion to it seems to be coming from. However, it is unable to follow through on the integral "little effort" section. As with most sweepers, certian threats on the opposing team must be dealt with before attempting a sweep. For Volcarona, it is Stealth Rocks, Rock Types, and Heatran. For Dragonite, it's status setters, Faries, Ice Shard carriers, and things like Vaporeon. For Aegislash, it's WoW carriers, Normal types, and faster mons with Earthquake. You get the point. For Kanga, the list is no shorter. Before you can get to sweeping, you need to get rid of the opponent's Sableyes, Quagsires, Ferrothorns, Rocky Helmet (and Roar) Skarmory, M-Lucario, Fighting types with priority (Read Mach Punch), and Ghost types. If there is a Ghost type still alive, Kanga CANNOT sweep (assuming it is played well). Many ghosts carry WoW, which cripples Kanga without PuP, and ones with it cannot use it on a ghost type. Jellicent, Sableye, Dusclops can all do this well. Then, their only fear is a Shadow Claw, but if Kanga is carrying that, it allows Ferrothorn to take it to meet its maker. If the opposing team is running any good form of physical defense on their team, a large ammount of effort is required for Kanga to sweep, which, by definition, makes it not Ubers.
Kanga is also very susceptible to passive damage. With Drain Punch as it's only form of effective (offensive) recovery, it has a hard time staying the battle unless it can pull of a sweep. Priority, status (Esp. Burn), Stealth Rocks, and Spikes all keep Kanga's number of switch-ins limited. If it chooses to run Drain Punch it must give up one of the things that makes it such a potent sweeper: Priority, Strong STAB, Boosting, or Coverage. "But what about Wish/Seismic Toss?" By definition, that is not a sweeper. It hits hard, yes. However, it does not have the sweeping prowess of normal M-Kanga. Seismic Toss is also reasonably gimmicky, since it (again) cannot deal with Ghosts, anything with a reasonable amount of bulk that runs substitute (and let's be honest; most things with a large ammount of HP bulk love to run sub). It also has to 2HKO, since almost nothing in OU has less than 200 HP. This allows opponents to switch in Ghosts, Recover, or hit Kanga with status.
In closing, Kanga is good, but it is nothing new. I would support suspect testing it, but under no circumstances should it be insta-banned. It does not have the ability to sweep the Meta unopposed, and therefore does not fit the qualification for an Uber. It is not uncounterable. If it wants to live long enough to take advantage of its bulk, it has to diminish its sweeping capabilities. If it goes defensive, it becomes easier to counter, and only succeeds in changing its counters, not removing them.
Agreed, there are little too no good arguments too keep this thing OU. And at this point, everything has been discussed already, so they might as well make their decision as soon as possible.
I can see why people think it should go to Ubers, but I believe it can stay in OU because it lacks the bulk to take many hits true it hits hard, but if you have a pokemon such as ferrothorn with a rocky helmet its almost dead already and can easily be stalled out by plenty of other pokemon in OU. That's why I believe it should stay in OU
This post was all right until you assumed that no Kanga is going to run PUP/Crunch/Sucker Punch. The calcs have been made and QUAGSIRE CANNOT EVEN SWITCH IN KANGA. Godamn Quagsire, the guy to go when you have problems with setup sweepers, cannot defeat Kanga one on one.
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Also, this thing is tremendously bulky. Not even Breloom Mach Punch OHKOes it! And it does, the only thing you should do is save it for last. I have played with my team that way and believe me, MegaKanga is indeed the best sweeper at the moment.
Lacks the bulk???!!!! IT CAN SURVIVE ONE ADAMANT TECHNICIAN BRELOOM MACH PUNCH! And it has been said a lot of times that Ferrothorn is no problem for MegaKanga, yeah, she's going to end very damaged, but you've just sacrificed two pokemons.
Do some damage calcs please. 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 267-315 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 69-82 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
Keldeo can't switch into a Return followed up by Sucker Punch. Keldeo isn't a counter, and is COMPLETELY different than Volcarona vs Heatran. If you want to talk about counters, start with something that can take on the typical Kanga-set.
I disagree. This thread is less "suspect test" and more "convince the OU tiering leaders to whatever you think is right". The poll in the last one was a farce, as the majority of "competitive" players (read: average ladderers) voted no and these outnumbered battlers who actually face decent opponents. And it was used so the leaders could check how the community felt overall about the quickban (though considering what happened, it wasn't particularly useful).
Finally, read my last post. This is a repeat of the last quick ban thread, where the arguments where all already mentioned when page 10 ended, if not earlier. There's no point to continue discussing if everything relevant has already been said and all that's left is the council's decision. At least imo.
Ha, name one Pokémon that can actually stall out Mega Kangaskhan. That's right, it's a trick question, because the answer is NOTHING. That's not even an exaggeration.
Also, Rocky Helmet isn't a good way to beat it. You're still taking tons of damage from a boosted base 212 Attack stat, the residual damage won't even KO Kangaskhan, and it'll fail anyways if it happens to run Fire Blast.
They're never going to ban strategies, they will ban the pokémon. That's 100% sure.
Many Kangaskhan do run Crunch though, and with the simplest of prediction (really I wouldn't call it "prediction", just OH LAWD IS THAT A JELLICENT I'LL JUST CRUNCH IT NOW KEK) it dies and you lost your bulky ghost. Or you could just do hilarious things like stay base form and one-shot Gengar, if that's your thing.
Also, passive damage is the least of Kang's worries since it can just stay in on anything not Sableye and kill all. This thing has more than Jirachi's bulk; I think there was a calc, that showed that LO Breloom can't OHKO with Mach Punch. (and with CB you can only OHKO with Stealth Rock) Sure, Keldeo checks it, but it's one of what, five viable checks? And only revenge-killers, that you have to do sacrificial rites to get in safely?
Here it's the calc for anybody that doubts it: 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 283-335 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, stop the argument of it "not being bulky enough"!!!!!!
What? That is what people are impressed with?
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 267-315 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The `khan is bulky as all hell. She'll do fine in Ubers. She can 1v1 Choice Band Ho Oh, and out-speeds and kills it... even if it gets burned by the Sacred Fire
You didn't read the whole thread, did you?
Personally, I just want to know why the anti-ban side wants to keep Mega Khan in OU. I get the feeling that many of her defenders just want to steamroll through the meta with a hax mode sweeper, and that is why I have no sympathy. I think most will agree that Kanga's Mega Design is the definition of lazy, and the Pokemon itself is on the same affection level as Garbador. So what I'm asking is, why such an attachment to a pokemon you probably never thought about once until now?
The ban side has given numerous examples of how Kanga is head and shoulders above the rest. That's all we need because we have no attachment to this pokemon. The anti-ban side counters with weak arguments that feel very artificial in my opinion. When Mega Gengar was up for exile, the gengarite thread was an e-version of a civil rights court case. But here, the anti-ban just seems to be spitting out half-assed responses with "sort of" checks and the classic "if you outpredict then she's not that threatening" argument.
What I'm saying is that the anti-side feels like a bunch of bandwagoners are rallying together so that they don't have to take a few hours (or 2 minutes on Showdown) to build a new pokemon that could fill the set-up sweeper role on their team. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like you guys don't like Kanga as a Pokemon. I feel like you're only using her because you want a trump card that can completely dominate the opponent in most circumstances.
Now I wouldn't bring this point up for nearly any other pokemon. But it's kangaskhan for heaven's sake.
The ban side has given numerous examples of how Kanga is head and shoulders above the rest. That's all we need because we have no attachment to this pokemon. The anti-ban side counters with weak arguments that feel very artificial in my opinion. When Mega Gengar was up for exile, the gengarite thread was an e-version of a civil rights court case. But here, the anti-ban just seems to be spitting out half-assed responses with "sort of" checks and the classic "if you outpredict then she's not that threatening" argument.
What I'm saying is that the anti-side feels like a bunch of bandwagoners are rallying together so that they don't have to take a few hours (or 2 minutes on Showdown) to build a new pokemon that could fill the set-up sweeper role on their team. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like you guys don't like Kanga as a Pokemon. I feel like you're only using her because you want a trump card that can completely dominate the opponent in most circumstances.
Now I wouldn't bring this point up for nearly any other pokemon. But it's kangaskhan for heaven's sake.
That's the thing- Keldeo isn't meant to switch into stuff. Just like last generation, it's a fabulous revenge killer. If you want to run it to survive Kanga's hits, you can change its EV spread. But, there's no point. Keldeo is a tried-and-true revenge killer. It will be switched in after Kanga has offed something, and it can force it out (someone higher up was arguing that that is what a "counter" is. If you truly want to switch Keldeo into Kanga, then use one of its frequent partners with it: Jellicent. Unless the opponent really has their prediction shoes on, they will most likely go for a crunch or sucker punch. You would then switch in, and kill it.
Volcarona doesn't compare to Megaskhan in the slightest. For starters, Volcarona's biggest Counter is its crippling 4X weakness to Stealth Rock, which means it has to be paired with a spinner at all times. As a result, Volcarona is often extremely difficult to switch in. Megaskhan doesn't need team support to do its job.
Plus, Volcarona has very poor physical defense and can't safetly switch in on a lot of physical attacks, even ones it resists. Volcarona is a fantastic Pokemon, but it is much more difficult to use compared to Megaskhan who has the bulk to switch into a lot of attacks and can easily grab a +2 with a damaging Power-Up Punch. Megaskhan is easier to set up than Blaziken. And how easily it can set up just makes it all the less painful should you decide to switch it to avoid a burn where as with Volcarona it is incredibly painful because you might not get that chance again.
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Trying to 2hko ferrothorn is a suicide for kangaskhan.
Oh, and about "reading the whole thread".
What is written here and what happens in showdown is in no way representative of how the meta works in the real game. So the arguments should come from the real experience, not from what is written here.
Get this thing out of OU it takes way too much to play around it and I have to carry atleast 2 things that can deal with it. It over centralizes the meta harder than MGengar imo because with literally no support it can blow out half a good team and with only a little bit of support it can straight up demolish entire teams (Dual Screens/a simple Speed boost past from scolipede/etc).
MKhanga is like the ultimate trump card, even with the rocky helmet strats he can still murder the likes of Ferrothorn and garchomp, and even then you can EASILY predict a switch in from them because nothing else can truly deal with it.
It takes little effort to win with Khanga and alot to deal with it. Ban it
MKhanga is like the ultimate trump card, even with the rocky helmet strats he can still murder the likes of Ferrothorn and garchomp, and even then you can EASILY predict a switch in from them because nothing else can truly deal with it.
It takes little effort to win with Khanga and alot to deal with it. Ban it
And is suicide for ferro as well. Heck, that's the best a "counter" can do against something as obnoxious as MegaKhan. And MegaKhan still has the option of switching out, eh? It's not like its hard to setup with MegaKhan.
Besides, if ferro is the only thing stopping my talonflame from sweeping, then sure I'll suicide MegaKhan and kill ferro as well
I suppose, a lot of it has to do with "previous NU garbage made from rags to riches", that's what's making it so popular? And maybe the concept of a mother and child kicking ass really catches on or something.
Still, quite a few of the megas that deserved the boost do that and not be as blatantly broken as this. As you see from my avatar, Mawile's one of my all-time favourites and it's great to see it being finally viable. But when I'm using or facing it, I think, "OK, so now Mawile is a 259 base attack monstrosity that breaks walls like they're nothing. But I need to find a way to work around its terrible speed, trying to get it in battle before transforming, and accounting for a few mons that stop it no matter what, when I'm building a team with it. I think I can work with this." I see that it can be a massive threat if played right, but never have I felt, that I'm cheapening myself to use it or that it's straining the opponent so much, that it's unreasonable. Kangaskhan is unreasonable.
And how it's supposed you're going to switch in Jellicent safely?
In Pokemon you're never going to play safely. If MegaKangashkan can kill Ferrothorn, she is going to take her chances and do it even if it survives at 47% health. That's what you have teammates for, right? For dealing with these kinds of situation. The only thing you need is a Wish/Heal Bell/Aromatherapy and MegaKanga can threaten again.
Mega Kangaskhan shouldn't be banned
Honestly, its not like Mega Kangaskhan is invincible. I use it and it gets countered just as many times as it doesn't. I think it just hasn't been in OU long enough for people to get 'used' to it enough to prepare their team for it so instead everyone just wants it banned just cause its hard to counter. Well there's a lot of other pokemon that's hard to counter too, but their still in OU because everyone makes their teams to be able to beat them.
Honestly, its not like Mega Kangaskhan is invincible. I use it and it gets countered just as many times as it doesn't. I think it just hasn't been in OU long enough for people to get 'used' to it enough to prepare their team for it so instead everyone just wants it banned just cause its hard to counter. Well there's a lot of other pokemon that's hard to counter too, but their still in OU because everyone makes their teams to be able to beat them.
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