Raikou probably gets destroyed by Secret Sword and Hydro Pump too, just like everything else. Although it could hit Keldeo with Thunder if it lives. And if nearly every Pokemon can get absolutely demolished by a pony that has a whole lot of positive attributes, I don't think it's hanging around in OU very long. :x Agreeing with Chou on that.
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Keldeo [available from June 23rd to August 31st]
- Thread starter Bloo
- Start date
But if Keldeo attacks first, Raikou is liable to drop just like nearly everything else. If it can survive the onslaught and strike back, it could beat it, at the cost of being horribly crippled itself.
OK, as someone who has played DW since early 2011, I can assure you that Keldeo is far from being broken. It certainly has checks that it just in general can't touch (I'm looking at Latias, Latios, and Celebi in particular) as well as the mindgames played vs. Scarf Rotom-W (and now Rotom-C, which seems to be steadily rising in usage), as well as like SubToxic Tentacruel (which is quite common), some Jellicent, and Psyshock Starmie. Even Dragons take it nicely if it lacks HP Ice.
In short, Keldeo is FAR from broken. Is it really, really good, especially at stallbreaking as Lum Keldeo? YES. But it has its counters which are very common and packed on many teams. It's like asking is Scizor broken. Obviously, it is the most used Poke in the game, but it has the obvious counters of Skarm, Tran, etc. yet still it is the most used Pokemon. This is about how I feel about Keldeo in DW and probably how it will carry over.
In short, Keldeo is FAR from broken. Is it really, really good, especially at stallbreaking as Lum Keldeo? YES. But it has its counters which are very common and packed on many teams. It's like asking is Scizor broken. Obviously, it is the most used Poke in the game, but it has the obvious counters of Skarm, Tran, etc. yet still it is the most used Pokemon. This is about how I feel about Keldeo in DW and probably how it will carry over.
Porii brings up a good point. In DW OU, you have things like ST Chandelure, Genesect, and Keldeo. Even the most powerful Pokes have some counters, and the three Psychics they mentioned for Keldeo seem pretty solid. A STAB Psyshock or Volt Switch would surely hurt, and nothing likes being burnt or Toxiced, although a Rain-fueled STAB Hydro Pump would still hurt unless they're doubly resistant or immune.
Perhaps. This is all just theorymonning about how we think it'll influence OU. Until it's actually released, we'll have to see if there are any hard counters to Keldeo or not.
It'll probably be a 'whoever can set an attack off first' counter, and even then, Keldeo could survive and hammer off a STAB attack to destroy whatever comes out.
It isnt theorymon for the DW players that have dealt with it for a good year and a half now. It really isn't all that broken. Nothing in DW bar Amoonguss really counters it (i mean nothing NEW, as in Gene, Chandy, etc.)
No...I JUST said theres nothing new in DW that really threatens it. Breloom kinda maybe does but not really, and then there is Amoonguss (although it isn't as popular). If Keldeo's performence in DW is nearly identical to its performence in Standard, as far as checks and counters go, and veteran DW players will tell you that it isn;t broken in DW, then therefore it probably won't be all that broken in standard.
Excadrill isnt really with Loom running around, Thundurus isn't as much with Amoonguss and Excadrill screwing it up a good portion of the time (in addition to the rise in Gastrodon usage), whereas Chomp can be countered more easily with Amoonguss running around, can be revenged easily by Scarf HP Ice Chandy, in addition to Skarm still screwing it up a good portion of the time (esp. in Rain, since we can obv assume weather in theorymon).
Excadrill can still mess shit up with Sand Rush and its' perfect coverage moves. It's got all it needs to be able to destroy, like Keldeo, in a sense.
What we do need to consider is that Keldeo will not be released in a metagame where many of the most popular Dream World Pokemon reside, and as such, OU's ablility to handle it will be greatly affected. We don't have any Breloom to Mach Punch it, Chandelure to trap it, Blaziken/Excadrill to sweep past it. Standard will essentially look the same + Keldeo. Dream World can give you an idea of what he'll do, but try to be more realistic about the environment he'll play in.
Hi I know I'm supposed to be promoting Dream World and all, but Dream World and BW OU are entirely separate metagames. The only safe assumption we can make is that Keldeo will exist in OU soon. We cannot say the same about Genesect, Technician Breloom, etc. If you want to bring up your experiences with it in Dream World, only do so in reference to Pokemon we know exist in OU. Latios is ok, Regernator Amoonguss is not; for the time being at least. If we get new spoilers for Black / White 2 revealing things like Shadow Tag Chandelure, then go nuts, but until then remember that this is an OU discussion, not a Dream World discussion.
It has counters... and?
I personally don't think Keldeo will outright break the metagame in half. That said, can you really say it will be less powerful than a Pokemon like Garchomp (who is already banned)? I doubt it (that said, I think the garchomp band is also kind of ...meh...). I'm just saying that Keldeo is definitely comperable in ability to Pokemon that are already banned.
I'd like to say that Dragonite is the opposite of a counter to Keldeo, as it cannot switch in and make Keldeo switch out by itself at all. Timid 252 Life Orb Keldeo will deal 39.2% - 46.3% with Hydro Pump not including Multiscale into the mix (which isn't ridiculous considering that sand is one of the most common weathers). So with Stealth Rock down that's a 100% chance to 2HKO on the switch in. If we want to put Keldeo in "the best possible situation" then we can even remove Stealth Rock from the equation and put it in rain. In rain STAB LO Hydro Pump deals 58.6% - 69.1% to Dragonite not including Multiscale. Factoring Multiscale in (though I don't know why, hazards are stupid easy to set up) LO Timid Keldeo deals 29.3% - 34.6% (just kinda halved the percents, so be it). There's still a reasonable chance to 2HKO even including Multiscale.
And Specs is even more deadly than that, but enough about Dragonite being a "counter."
252/4 Slowbro takes 60.4% - 71.1% from Timid LO's HP Ghost (the only HP Keldeo should really be running because it doesn't care about anything else), and takes 38.6% - 45.4% from a non-boosted rain Hydro Pump.
Slowking, on the other hand, can actually be 2HKOed by HP Ghost with SR down, but no one is perfect with prediction, so it's honestly a pretty solid check at least.
Actually out of that entire list nothing can really switch in on Keldeo to force it out bar Slowking, Toxicroak, Celebi, Amoongus (DW only), Jellicent and Lati@s. Even then more than half of that list (everything except Toxicroak) is risking getting 2HKOed on the switch in by LO HP Ghost. Keldeo is damn good, the best way to avoid losing to it is revenging it, and there are some really good revenge killers to Keldeo. But I really would hate people using Dragonite / Salamence as a sure-fire way to counter Keldeo because someone in this thread said it would.
And Specs is even more deadly than that, but enough about Dragonite being a "counter."
252/4 Slowbro takes 60.4% - 71.1% from Timid LO's HP Ghost (the only HP Keldeo should really be running because it doesn't care about anything else), and takes 38.6% - 45.4% from a non-boosted rain Hydro Pump.
Slowking, on the other hand, can actually be 2HKOed by HP Ghost with SR down, but no one is perfect with prediction, so it's honestly a pretty solid check at least.
Actually out of that entire list nothing can really switch in on Keldeo to force it out bar Slowking, Toxicroak, Celebi, Amoongus (DW only), Jellicent and Lati@s. Even then more than half of that list (everything except Toxicroak) is risking getting 2HKOed on the switch in by LO HP Ghost. Keldeo is damn good, the best way to avoid losing to it is revenging it, and there are some really good revenge killers to Keldeo. But I really would hate people using Dragonite / Salamence as a sure-fire way to counter Keldeo because someone in this thread said it would.
Posting this for reference.
Specs Keldeo's damage calcs outside of Rain:
"One of the best offensive typings" (for Rain) definitely gets brought down to Earth once you take the weather-boost away. You get walled by some of the most common Pokemon in OU and that's without the liberty to change attacks.
Specs Keldeo's damage calcs outside of Rain:
Jellicent (OU Utility Counter [Water Absorb]) Hydro Pump 0 - 0% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Jellicent (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 0 - 0% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Dragonite (OU Parashuffler [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 15.02 - 17.87% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain) [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 16.32 - 19.43% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 19.17 - 22.53% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Bulky Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 20.72 - 24.61% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Tank [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 20.77 - 24.67% (Secret Sword) 15.32 - 17.92%
Dragonite (OU Choice Band [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 23.66 - 28.1% (Secret Sword) 17.45 - 20.41%
Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 24.76 - 29.41% (Secret Sword) 18.26 - 21.36%
Celebi (OU Specially Defensive) Hydro Pump 29.2 - 34.4% (Secret Sword) 28.21 - 33.16%
Dragonite (OU Parashuffler) (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26% Hydro Pump 29.79 - 35.23%
Slowking (OU Tank) Hydro Pump 32.23 - 38.07% (Secret Sword) 27.66 - 32.74%
Slowking (OU Defensive Nasty Plot) Hydro Pump 32.23 - 38.07% (Secret Sword) 27.66 - 32.74%
Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Hydro Pump 32.64 - 38.6% (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26%
Amoonguss (OU Double Status) (Secret Sword) 33.33 - 39.35% Hydro Pump 31.94 - 37.5%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive [Marvel Scale]) Hydro Pump 33.5 - 39.59% (Secret Sword) 32.23 - 38.32%
Parasect (OU SubSeed) (Secret Sword) 35.18 - 41.35% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Latias (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 34.06 - 40.38%
Latias (OU Support) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 33.79 - 40.1%
Latias (OU Physically Defensive Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 24.45 - 28.84%
Latias (OU Dual Screens) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 33.79 - 40.1%
Milotic (OU RestTalk [Marvel Scale]) (Secret Sword) 36.04 - 42.63% Hydro Pump 29.94 - 35.53%
Suicune (OU CroCune) (Secret Sword) 37.12 - 43.81% Hydro Pump 34.9 - 41.33%
Slowking (OU Trick Room) Hydro Pump 37.56 - 44.16% (Secret Sword) 34.51 - 40.86%
Tentacruel (OU Toxic Spikes) Hydro Pump 37.63 - 44.5% (Secret Sword) 29.67 - 35.16%
Tentacruel (OU SubToxic) Hydro Pump 37.63 - 44.5% (Secret Sword) 32.41 - 38.46%
Latias (OU Life Orb Tank) Hydro Pump 37.75 - 44.54% (Secret Sword) 36.57 - 43.36%
Jellicent (OU Utility Counter) Hydro Pump 37.96 - 44.91% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 38.34 - 45.07% (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26%
Celebi (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 39.85 - 46.78% (Secret Sword) 20.79 - 24.5%
Celebi (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 39.85 - 46.78% (Secret Sword) 23.01 - 27.47%
Celebi (OU Tinkerbell) Hydro Pump 40.35 - 47.36% (Secret Sword) 28.57 - 33.58%
Celebi (OU Nasty Plot Sweeper) Hydro Pump 40.65 - 47.72% (Secret Sword) 28.78 - 33.83%
Latios (OU Dual Screens) Hydro Pump 40.65 - 47.8% (Secret Sword) 37.36 - 44.23%
Gyarados (OU RestTalk) Hydro Pump 40.6 - 47.96% (Secret Sword) 24.11 - 28.42%
Gyarados (OU Bulky Support) Hydro Pump 40.96 - 48.09% (Secret Sword) 24.17 - 28.49%
Dragonite (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 41.7 - 48.96% (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26%
Celebi (OU Navi (Non-Choice Attacker)) Hydro Pump 41.81 - 49.09% (Secret Sword) 29.61 - 34.8%
Dragonite (OU Tank) Hydro Pump 41.81 - 49.09% (Secret Sword) 30.64 - 36.36%
_____________________________2HKO Line______________________________
Latias (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 42.38 - 50% (Secret Sword) 41.05 - 48.67%
Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 42.93 - 50.4% (Secret Sword) 36.8 - 43.46%
Toxicroak (OU Bulk Up) (Secret Sword) 43.2 - 50.81% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Venusaur (OU SubSeed) Hydro Pump 43.83 - 51.57% (Secret Sword) 26.64 - 31.23%
Toxicroak (OU SubPunch) (Secret Sword) 43.75 - 51.63% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 46.66 - 54.78% (Secret Sword) 40 - 47.24%
Celebi (OU Choice) Hydro Pump 47.07 - 55.26% (Secret Sword) 33.33 - 39.18%
Roserade (OU Spikes) (Secret Sword) 47.22 - 55.55% Hydro Pump 37.96 - 44.75%
Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 47.63 - 55.91% (Secret Sword) 34.91 - 41.42%
Dusclops (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 47.53 - 56.33% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Dusclops (OU RestTalk) Hydro Pump 47.53 - 56.33% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Vaporeon (OU Wish Support) (Secret Sword) 48.16 - 57.01% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Vaporeon (OU Hydration Wall) (Secret Sword) 48.16 - 57.01% Hydro Pump 35.63 - 42.11%
Gyarados (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 48.64 - 57.09% (Secret Sword) 41.69 - 48.94%
Gyarados (OU Choice Scarf) Hydro Pump 48.64 - 57.09% (Secret Sword) 41.69 - 48.94%
Gyarados (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 48.64 - 57.09% (Secret Sword) 37.46 - 44.41%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive) (Secret Sword) 48.22 - 57.1% Hydro Pump 33.5 - 39.59%
Latios (OU Choice) Hydro Pump 49 - 57.61% (Secret Sword) 45.36 - 53.64%
Latios (OU Offensive) Hydro Pump 49 - 57.61% (Secret Sword) 45.36 - 53.64%
Latios (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 49 - 57.61% (Secret Sword) 45.36 - 53.64%
Salamence (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 24.36 - 28.68%
Slowbro (OU Physical Tank) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 19.28 - 22.84%
Slowbro (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 26.64 - 31.21%
Slowbro (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 19.28 - 22.84%
Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 49.53 - 58.51% (Secret Sword) 36.53 - 43.3
Jellicent (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 0 - 0% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Dragonite (OU Parashuffler [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 15.02 - 17.87% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain) [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 16.32 - 19.43% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 19.17 - 22.53% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Bulky Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 20.72 - 24.61% (Secret Sword) 15.28 - 17.87%
Dragonite (OU Tank [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 20.77 - 24.67% (Secret Sword) 15.32 - 17.92%
Dragonite (OU Choice Band [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 23.66 - 28.1% (Secret Sword) 17.45 - 20.41%
Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 24.76 - 29.41% (Secret Sword) 18.26 - 21.36%
Celebi (OU Specially Defensive) Hydro Pump 29.2 - 34.4% (Secret Sword) 28.21 - 33.16%
Dragonite (OU Parashuffler) (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26% Hydro Pump 29.79 - 35.23%
Slowking (OU Tank) Hydro Pump 32.23 - 38.07% (Secret Sword) 27.66 - 32.74%
Slowking (OU Defensive Nasty Plot) Hydro Pump 32.23 - 38.07% (Secret Sword) 27.66 - 32.74%
Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Hydro Pump 32.64 - 38.6% (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26%
Amoonguss (OU Double Status) (Secret Sword) 33.33 - 39.35% Hydro Pump 31.94 - 37.5%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive [Marvel Scale]) Hydro Pump 33.5 - 39.59% (Secret Sword) 32.23 - 38.32%
Parasect (OU SubSeed) (Secret Sword) 35.18 - 41.35% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Latias (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 34.06 - 40.38%
Latias (OU Support) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 33.79 - 40.1%
Latias (OU Physically Defensive Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 24.45 - 28.84%
Latias (OU Dual Screens) Hydro Pump 35.16 - 41.48% (Secret Sword) 33.79 - 40.1%
Milotic (OU RestTalk [Marvel Scale]) (Secret Sword) 36.04 - 42.63% Hydro Pump 29.94 - 35.53%
Suicune (OU CroCune) (Secret Sword) 37.12 - 43.81% Hydro Pump 34.9 - 41.33%
Slowking (OU Trick Room) Hydro Pump 37.56 - 44.16% (Secret Sword) 34.51 - 40.86%
Tentacruel (OU Toxic Spikes) Hydro Pump 37.63 - 44.5% (Secret Sword) 29.67 - 35.16%
Tentacruel (OU SubToxic) Hydro Pump 37.63 - 44.5% (Secret Sword) 32.41 - 38.46%
Latias (OU Life Orb Tank) Hydro Pump 37.75 - 44.54% (Secret Sword) 36.57 - 43.36%
Jellicent (OU Utility Counter) Hydro Pump 37.96 - 44.91% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 38.34 - 45.07% (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26%
Celebi (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 39.85 - 46.78% (Secret Sword) 20.79 - 24.5%
Celebi (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 39.85 - 46.78% (Secret Sword) 23.01 - 27.47%
Celebi (OU Tinkerbell) Hydro Pump 40.35 - 47.36% (Secret Sword) 28.57 - 33.58%
Celebi (OU Nasty Plot Sweeper) Hydro Pump 40.65 - 47.72% (Secret Sword) 28.78 - 33.83%
Latios (OU Dual Screens) Hydro Pump 40.65 - 47.8% (Secret Sword) 37.36 - 44.23%
Gyarados (OU RestTalk) Hydro Pump 40.6 - 47.96% (Secret Sword) 24.11 - 28.42%
Gyarados (OU Bulky Support) Hydro Pump 40.96 - 48.09% (Secret Sword) 24.17 - 28.49%
Dragonite (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 41.7 - 48.96% (Secret Sword) 30.56 - 36.26%
Celebi (OU Navi (Non-Choice Attacker)) Hydro Pump 41.81 - 49.09% (Secret Sword) 29.61 - 34.8%
Dragonite (OU Tank) Hydro Pump 41.81 - 49.09% (Secret Sword) 30.64 - 36.36%
_____________________________2HKO Line______________________________
Latias (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 42.38 - 50% (Secret Sword) 41.05 - 48.67%
Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 42.93 - 50.4% (Secret Sword) 36.8 - 43.46%
Toxicroak (OU Bulk Up) (Secret Sword) 43.2 - 50.81% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Venusaur (OU SubSeed) Hydro Pump 43.83 - 51.57% (Secret Sword) 26.64 - 31.23%
Toxicroak (OU SubPunch) (Secret Sword) 43.75 - 51.63% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 46.66 - 54.78% (Secret Sword) 40 - 47.24%
Celebi (OU Choice) Hydro Pump 47.07 - 55.26% (Secret Sword) 33.33 - 39.18%
Roserade (OU Spikes) (Secret Sword) 47.22 - 55.55% Hydro Pump 37.96 - 44.75%
Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 47.63 - 55.91% (Secret Sword) 34.91 - 41.42%
Dusclops (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 47.53 - 56.33% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Dusclops (OU RestTalk) Hydro Pump 47.53 - 56.33% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%
Vaporeon (OU Wish Support) (Secret Sword) 48.16 - 57.01% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%
Vaporeon (OU Hydration Wall) (Secret Sword) 48.16 - 57.01% Hydro Pump 35.63 - 42.11%
Gyarados (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 48.64 - 57.09% (Secret Sword) 41.69 - 48.94%
Gyarados (OU Choice Scarf) Hydro Pump 48.64 - 57.09% (Secret Sword) 41.69 - 48.94%
Gyarados (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 48.64 - 57.09% (Secret Sword) 37.46 - 44.41%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive) (Secret Sword) 48.22 - 57.1% Hydro Pump 33.5 - 39.59%
Latios (OU Choice) Hydro Pump 49 - 57.61% (Secret Sword) 45.36 - 53.64%
Latios (OU Offensive) Hydro Pump 49 - 57.61% (Secret Sword) 45.36 - 53.64%
Latios (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 49 - 57.61% (Secret Sword) 45.36 - 53.64%
Salamence (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 24.36 - 28.68%
Slowbro (OU Physical Tank) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 19.28 - 22.84%
Slowbro (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 26.64 - 31.21%
Slowbro (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 48.98 - 57.86% (Secret Sword) 19.28 - 22.84%
Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 49.53 - 58.51% (Secret Sword) 36.53 - 43.3
"One of the best offensive typings" (for Rain) definitely gets brought down to Earth once you take the weather-boost away. You get walled by some of the most common Pokemon in OU and that's without the liberty to change attacks.
Choice Specs isn't Keldeo's best set honestly. Calm Mind LO is where it really shines, since with one boost it hits like a truck, and without it it hits like a less big truck. All with the freedom of switching moves and that beautiful Speed stat it carries.
And you have to be joking yourself in some way if you don't find rain the easiest weather to keep up constantly. None of the other weather starters (or abusers for that matter) really want to switch in on STAB rain-boosted Hydro Pumps or Surfs.
And you have to be joking yourself in some way if you don't find rain the easiest weather to keep up constantly. None of the other weather starters (or abusers for that matter) really want to switch in on STAB rain-boosted Hydro Pumps or Surfs.
Well you don't switch weather starters in on him. You have PLENTY of chances to switch them in when Keldeo is forced out. I might as well get this impending rant out of the way now. (Side note: It's a damn shame OU hasn't caught into Calm Mind Ninetales like DW has. It really does a number on Rain.)
Instead of just a list of calcs, as someone who knows all the Musketeers inside and out and plays both OU & DW OU, here are my actual thoughts on Keldeo, specifically the over-hyped Specs Keldeo:
After doing the damage calcs for Keldeo, my opinion about Specs Keldeo changed a bit. Specs Keldeo is pretty scary...in Rain. Decent and entirely manageable outside of Rain but most threatening in Rain.
BUT
I'm well aware that Keldeo will be spending most of it's time in the Rain and for the rest of this post, I'm considering him to be in Rain, so don't think I'm taking him lightly because of that.
With that said, comparing Keldeo to Garchomp, Excadrill, or Thundurus as a few of you have is a piss-poor, ill-informed comparison. Keldeo is nowhere near those 3. Specs Keldeo anyway, but CM has it's flaws as well. I'll put it this way: There's a lot more Pokemon that can stop Keldeo than the amount that can stop +2 Garchomp, Excadrill, or Thundurus. I would say "open your eyes", but I'm going to point everything out regardless.
I'm taking Keldeo lightly (compared to most of you) because of one reason: he's easy to revenge. For all those fast Psychic-, Electric-, or Flying-types like Espeon, Lati@s, Starmie, Alakazam, Jolteon, & Tornadus, Keldeo is nothing more than a free Sub or a Calm Mind, and Espeon & Jolteon can Baton Pass that Sub if they choose to while Alakazam & Tornadus can sweep with theirs. 108 Speed one of Keldeo's biggest downfalls. At lot of Keldeo checks are right above his Speed Tier and a good number of them can abuse Rain right back at Keldeo.
To add on to that, there's a plethora of Scarf Pokemon that out-speed and take Keldeo for a ride; Rotow-W, Abomasnow, Magnezone, and Salamence for examples. If you think outside the box a bit, Pokemon like Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Metagross, or Scarf Victini, Pokemon Keldeo knows he can OHKO, can run Zen Headbutt or Fusion Bolt and revenge it while he thinks he's safe. Having 4 weaknesses that nearly any Pokemon can run and no immunities makes Keldeo a lot easier to stop than Garchomp, with his Dragon & Ice weaknesses (YacheChomp make's Ice mute) and Electric immunity, and Thundurus, with his only weaknesses to Rock & Ice & an immunity to Ground. Keldeo is not anywhere near that hard to take down in comparison to them.
But ironically, Specs Keldeo has trouble with Rain teams. Ferrothorn & Politoed, Keldeo's best chances to start doing damage against, more often than not, carry Protect, meaning Keldeo's forced to giveaway his attack against Pokemon he has a massive advantage against. After the Protect, it's just a matter of switching to a Pokemon that resists Secret Sword or absorbs Water. Not to mention that Protect eats up one of Hydro Pump's precious 8 PP.
Keldeo also has trouble against Hyper Offense, Keldeo's "amazing defensive typing" (Please.) leaves him vulnerable to Spikes as well as the STAB of Hyper Offense's hard-hitters. Keldeo needs to come in safely, so when powerful Dragon-, Fighting-, or Ground-STAB is constantly being thrown around, Keldeo can't just switch in as he feels. Hell, his typing doesn't even let him switch in on Stall since he's open to all status aliments.
But the biggest flaw Keldeo has is that it only 2HKOs resistant Pokemon and it's Choiced. Any Pokemon that resists a Choice-locked Hydro Pump or Secret Sword with reasonable bulk can revenge or status (Paralysis is best) Keldeo at the cost of some damage even if they're far slower than Keldeo. Specs Keldeo should never "sweep". He KOs one Pokemon and then runs away. (Or stays in like an idiot) Sound familiar?
Keldeo has to not only switch in safely on a Pokemon that he can wall or OHKO safely, but Keldeo has to make sure that they don't have Protect or a Pokemon that can switch into whatever move you lock yourself into. That's a TALL order for a Pokemon with absolutely no immunities and average Defenses to do.
Keldeo has pretty big flaws, you just have to think about it for a second. You guys are acting like it's the most broken thing ever, and while in terms of raw damage, it can be, but if you look past the calcs, Keldeo's flaws are kind of big, obvious, and easy to take advantage of.
BUT
Keldeo is coming out after Black 2 & White 2 so any number of things can happen for or against Keldeo in that time, so idle speculation about Keldeo is a tad pointless for now since we have no idea what B2 & W2 have in store for us. But for now, I don't foresee Keldeo being entirely unmanageable due to his considerable downfalls. Every team should have 2 or 3 Water-resists anyway since Rain is already kiiind of a big deal. Rain-Boosted Hydro Pumps existed before Keldeo, even though his is the strongest, I think we can manage.
tl;dr: Power isn't everything. Ask Darmanitan & Chandelure. Unlike Deoxys & Excadrill, Keldeo's too slow and unlike Kyogre & Garchomp, too many Pokemon can just take a hit & roll his ass over due to his average defenses, complete lack of immunities, and inability to change attacks. It sounds crazy, but he's not powerful enough even in Rain. For any Pokemon, 1HKOing the tier and 2HKOing like Keldeo in Rain is a big, big difference.
One thing I have to say even though this is an OU thread; Keldeo is a lot less threatening in DW OU because he does have a good amount of counters there. Ditto rapes CM sets, Raikou's actually good now because of Volt Absorb, Espeon is much more common because of Breloom, Thundurus laughs at Specs Keldeo, and you DARE bring a Water-type without Calm Mind into Contrary Serperior's battlefield?! You're ASKING to be swept if you do that in DW. So to DW players, don't discredit Keldeo because your favorite DW Pokemon beats him. OU doesn't have the luxuries of our weird-ass metagame where Choiced Pokemon not named Chandelure are the worst thing ever.
Edit: I just realized something, my damage calcs were done with MODEST Keldeo, not Timid. I'll run the calcs again for Timid and I'll have them posted in a few minutes. My bad~
Instead of just a list of calcs, as someone who knows all the Musketeers inside and out and plays both OU & DW OU, here are my actual thoughts on Keldeo, specifically the over-hyped Specs Keldeo:
After doing the damage calcs for Keldeo, my opinion about Specs Keldeo changed a bit. Specs Keldeo is pretty scary...in Rain. Decent and entirely manageable outside of Rain but most threatening in Rain.
BUT
I'm well aware that Keldeo will be spending most of it's time in the Rain and for the rest of this post, I'm considering him to be in Rain, so don't think I'm taking him lightly because of that.
With that said, comparing Keldeo to Garchomp, Excadrill, or Thundurus as a few of you have is a piss-poor, ill-informed comparison. Keldeo is nowhere near those 3. Specs Keldeo anyway, but CM has it's flaws as well. I'll put it this way: There's a lot more Pokemon that can stop Keldeo than the amount that can stop +2 Garchomp, Excadrill, or Thundurus. I would say "open your eyes", but I'm going to point everything out regardless.
I'm taking Keldeo lightly (compared to most of you) because of one reason: he's easy to revenge. For all those fast Psychic-, Electric-, or Flying-types like Espeon, Lati@s, Starmie, Alakazam, Jolteon, & Tornadus, Keldeo is nothing more than a free Sub or a Calm Mind, and Espeon & Jolteon can Baton Pass that Sub if they choose to while Alakazam & Tornadus can sweep with theirs. 108 Speed one of Keldeo's biggest downfalls. At lot of Keldeo checks are right above his Speed Tier and a good number of them can abuse Rain right back at Keldeo.
To add on to that, there's a plethora of Scarf Pokemon that out-speed and take Keldeo for a ride; Rotow-W, Abomasnow, Magnezone, and Salamence for examples. If you think outside the box a bit, Pokemon like Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Metagross, or Scarf Victini, Pokemon Keldeo knows he can OHKO, can run Zen Headbutt or Fusion Bolt and revenge it while he thinks he's safe. Having 4 weaknesses that nearly any Pokemon can run and no immunities makes Keldeo a lot easier to stop than Garchomp, with his Dragon & Ice weaknesses (YacheChomp make's Ice mute) and Electric immunity, and Thundurus, with his only weaknesses to Rock & Ice & an immunity to Ground. Keldeo is not anywhere near that hard to take down in comparison to them.
But ironically, Specs Keldeo has trouble with Rain teams. Ferrothorn & Politoed, Keldeo's best chances to start doing damage against, more often than not, carry Protect, meaning Keldeo's forced to giveaway his attack against Pokemon he has a massive advantage against. After the Protect, it's just a matter of switching to a Pokemon that resists Secret Sword or absorbs Water. Not to mention that Protect eats up one of Hydro Pump's precious 8 PP.
Keldeo also has trouble against Hyper Offense, Keldeo's "amazing defensive typing" (Please.) leaves him vulnerable to Spikes as well as the STAB of Hyper Offense's hard-hitters. Keldeo needs to come in safely, so when powerful Dragon-, Fighting-, or Ground-STAB is constantly being thrown around, Keldeo can't just switch in as he feels. Hell, his typing doesn't even let him switch in on Stall since he's open to all status aliments.
But the biggest flaw Keldeo has is that it only 2HKOs resistant Pokemon and it's Choiced. Any Pokemon that resists a Choice-locked Hydro Pump or Secret Sword with reasonable bulk can revenge or status (Paralysis is best) Keldeo at the cost of some damage even if they're far slower than Keldeo. Specs Keldeo should never "sweep". He KOs one Pokemon and then runs away. (Or stays in like an idiot) Sound familiar?
Keldeo has pretty big flaws, you just have to think about it for a second. You guys are acting like it's the most broken thing ever, and while in terms of raw damage, it can be, but if you look past the calcs, Keldeo's flaws are kind of big, obvious, and easy to take advantage of.
BUT
Keldeo is coming out after Black 2 & White 2 so any number of things can happen for or against Keldeo in that time, so idle speculation about Keldeo is a tad pointless for now since we have no idea what B2 & W2 have in store for us. But for now, I don't foresee Keldeo being entirely unmanageable due to his considerable downfalls. Every team should have 2 or 3 Water-resists anyway since Rain is already kiiind of a big deal. Rain-Boosted Hydro Pumps existed before Keldeo, even though his is the strongest, I think we can manage.
tl;dr: Power isn't everything. Ask Darmanitan & Chandelure. Unlike Deoxys & Excadrill, Keldeo's too slow and unlike Kyogre & Garchomp, too many Pokemon can just take a hit & roll his ass over due to his average defenses, complete lack of immunities, and inability to change attacks. It sounds crazy, but he's not powerful enough even in Rain. For any Pokemon, 1HKOing the tier and 2HKOing like Keldeo in Rain is a big, big difference.
One thing I have to say even though this is an OU thread; Keldeo is a lot less threatening in DW OU because he does have a good amount of counters there. Ditto rapes CM sets, Raikou's actually good now because of Volt Absorb, Espeon is much more common because of Breloom, Thundurus laughs at Specs Keldeo, and you DARE bring a Water-type without Calm Mind into Contrary Serperior's battlefield?! You're ASKING to be swept if you do that in DW. So to DW players, don't discredit Keldeo because your favorite DW Pokemon beats him. OU doesn't have the luxuries of our weird-ass metagame where Choiced Pokemon not named Chandelure are the worst thing ever.
I lol'd. Use Lefties. Various reasons.
Edit: I just realized something, my damage calcs were done with MODEST Keldeo, not Timid. I'll run the calcs again for Timid and I'll have them posted in a few minutes. My bad~