Keldeo [available from June 23rd to August 31st]

[Super Mario Bro]

By far, the best Keldeo counter is Double Powder SDef Regenerator Amoonguss. I really can't wait until DW Amoonguss gets released specifically for this reason.

I lol'd. Use Lefties. Various reasons.

There's nothing to "lol" about. Life Orb does have certain advantages over Leftovers, like being able to revenge things more easily and rivaling the power of Specs while being able to switch moves. It's all a matter of personal preference.

 

[Katakiri]

TIMID Specs Keldeo in Rain Damage Calcs:

Again, my bad~

Jellicent (OU Utility Counter [Water Absorb]) Hydro Pump 0 - 0% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%

Jellicent (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 0 - 0% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%

Dragonite (OU Parashuffler [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 20.46 - 24.09% (Secret Sword) 13.98 - 16.32%

Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain) [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 22.02 - 26.16% (Secret Sword) 13.98 - 16.32%

Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 26.16 - 30.82% (Secret Sword) 13.98 - 16.32%

Dragonite (OU Bulky Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 28.49 - 33.41% (Secret Sword) 13.98 - 16.32%

Dragonite (OU Tank [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 28.57 - 33.5% (Secret Sword) 14.02 - 16.36%

Parasect (OU SubSeed) (Secret Sword) 31.79 - 37.65% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Dragonite (OU Choice Band [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 32.54 - 38.16% (Secret Sword) 15.97 - 18.63%

Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance [Multiscale]) Hydro Pump 33.43 - 39.62% (Secret Sword) 16.71 - 19.5%

Toxicroak (OU Bulk Up) (Secret Sword) 39.13 - 46.46% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Celebi (OU Specially Defensive) Hydro Pump 39.85 - 47.02% (Secret Sword) 25.49 - 30.19%

Toxicroak (OU SubPunch) (Secret Sword) 39.94 - 47.28% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Dragonite (OU Parashuffler) Hydro Pump 40.67 - 48.18% (Secret Sword) 27.97 - 33.16%

Milotic (OU RestTalk [Marvel Scale]) Hydro Pump 41.11 - 48.47% (Secret Sword) 32.74 - 38.83%

___________________________2HKO Line____________________________

Amoonguss (OU Double Status) Hydro Pump 43.51 - 51.38% (Secret Sword) 30.32 - 35.87%

Slowking (OU Tank) Hydro Pump 44.16 - 51.77% (Secret Sword) 25.12 - 29.69%

Slowking (OU Defensive Nasty Plot) Hydro Pump 44.16 - 51.77% (Secret Sword) 25.12 - 29.69%

Vaporeon (OU Wish Support) (Secret Sword) 44.06 - 52.05% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Hydro Pump 44.3 - 52.33% (Secret Sword) 27.97 - 33.16%

Milotic (OU Physically Defensive) Hydro Pump 45.68 - 54.06% (Secret Sword) 44.16 - 52.03%

Suicune (OU CroCune) Hydro Pump 47.52 - 56.18% (Secret Sword) 33.41 - 39.6%

Suicune (OU Substitute + Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 48.01 - 56.43% (Secret Sword) 45.54 - 53.71%

Toxicroak (OU Swords Dance) (Secret Sword) 47.72 - 56.49% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Toxicroak (OU Nasty Plot) (Secret Sword) 47.72 - 56.49% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Latias (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 47.8 - 56.59% (Secret Sword) 31.04 - 36.53%

Latias (OU Support) Hydro Pump 47.8 - 56.59% (Secret Sword) 31.04 - 36.53%

Latias (OU Physically Defensive Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 47.8 - 56.59% (Secret Sword) 22.25 - 26.37%

Latias (OU Dual Screens) Hydro Pump 47.8 - 56.59% (Secret Sword) 31.04 - 36.53%

Vaporeon (OU Hydration Wall) Hydro Pump 48.81 - 57.66% (Secret Sword) 44.06 - 52.05%

Milotic (OU RestTalk) (Secret Sword) 48.98 - 57.86% Hydro Pump 41.11 - 48.47%

Vaporeon (OU Baton Pass) (Secret Sword) 50.64 - 59.74% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Slowking (OU Trick Room) Hydro Pump 51.01 - 60.15% (Secret Sword) 31.21 - 37.05%

Tentacruel (OU Toxic Spikes) Hydro Pump 51.09 - 60.43% (Secret Sword) 27.19 - 32.14%

Tentacruel (OU SubToxic) Hydro Pump 51.09 - 60.43% (Secret Sword) 29.67 - 35.16%

Latias (OU Life Orb Tank) Hydro Pump 51.32 - 60.76% (Secret Sword) 33.33 - 39.23%

Roserade (OU Spikes) Hydro Pump 51.85 - 61.11% (Secret Sword) 42.9 - 50.61%

Jellicent (OU Utility Counter) Hydro Pump 52.1 - 61.29% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%

Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 52.07 - 61.39% (Secret Sword) 27.97 - 33.16%

Ludicolo (OU SubSeed) (Secret Sword) 53.02 - 62.63% Hydro Pump 28.84 - 33.79%

Celebi (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 54.2 - 63.86% (Secret Sword) 18.81 - 22.27%

Celebi (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 54.2 - 63.86% (Secret Sword) 21.03 - 25%

Shaymin (OU Leech Seed) Hydro Pump 54.2 - 63.86% (Secret Sword) 51.23 - 60.39%

Celebi (OU Tinkerbell) Hydro Pump 54.88 - 64.66% (Secret Sword) 25.81 - 30.57%

Gyarados (OU RestTalk) Hydro Pump 55.07 - 64.97% (Secret Sword) 22.08 - 25.88%

Latios (OU Dual Screens) Hydro Pump 55.21 - 65.1% (Secret Sword) 33.79 - 40.1%

Celebi (OU Nasty Plot Sweeper) Hydro Pump 55.3 - 65.15% (Secret Sword) 26.01 - 30.8%

Gyarados (OU Bulky Support) Hydro Pump 55.72 - 65.64% (Secret Sword) 22.13 - 25.95%

Suicune (OU Offensive Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 56.3 - 66.56% (Secret Sword) 53.95 - 63.63%

Politoed (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 56.51 - 66.66% (Secret Sword) 46.35 - 54.94%

Dragonite (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 56.73 - 66.83% (Secret Sword) 27.97 - 33.16%

Celebi (OU Navi (Non-Choice Attacker)) Hydro Pump 56.88 - 67.01% (Secret Sword) 26.75 - 31.68%

Dragonite (OU Tank) Hydro Pump 56.88 - 67.01% (Secret Sword) 28.05 - 33.24%

Latias (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 57.61 - 68.21% (Secret Sword) 37.41 - 44.03%

Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 58.4 - 68.8% (Secret Sword) 33.6 - 39.46%

Vaporeon (OU Hydration Tank) (Secret Sword) 58.35 - 68.82% Hydro Pump 56.85 - 67.08%

Venusaur (OU SubSeed) Hydro Pump 59.31 - 69.91% (Secret Sword) 24.06 - 28.36%

Rotom-C (OU Support) (Secret Sword) 60.19 - 71.05% Hydro Pump 52.3 - 61.84%

Tentacruel (OU Offensive) Hydro Pump 62.2 - 73.24% (Secret Sword) 49.16 - 58.19%

Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 63.47 - 74.78% (Secret Sword) 36.52 - 42.89%

Celebi (OU Choice) Hydro Pump 64.03 - 75.43% (Secret Sword) 30.11 - 35.67%

Shaymin (OU Special Attacker) Hydro Pump 64.03 - 75.43% (Secret Sword) 60.52 - 71.34%

Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 64.79 - 76.33% (Secret Sword) 31.95 - 37.86%

Dusclops (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 65.49 - 77.11% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%

Dusclops (OU RestTalk) Hydro Pump 65.49 - 77.11% (Secret Sword) 0 - 0%

Gyarados (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 66.16 - 77.94% (Secret Sword) 37.76 - 44.41%

Gyarados (OU Choice Scarf) Hydro Pump 66.16 - 77.94% (Secret Sword) 37.76 - 44.41%

Gyarados (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 66.16 - 77.94% (Secret Sword) 34.13 - 40.18%

Kingdra (OU ChestoRest Dragon Dance) (Secret Sword) 66.36 - 78.28% Hydro Pump 33.33 - 39.44%

Latios (OU Choice) Hydro Pump 66.55 - 78.47% (Secret Sword) 41.05 - 48.67%

Latios (OU Offensive) Hydro Pump 66.55 - 78.47% (Secret Sword) 41.05 - 48.67%

Latios (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 66.55 - 78.47% (Secret Sword) 41.05 - 48.67%

Azumarill (OU Choice Band) Hydro Pump 66.75 - 78.68% (Secret Sword) 63.19 - 74.61%

Salamence (OU Defensive) Hydro Pump 66.75 - 78.68% (Secret Sword) 22.08 - 25.88%

Slowbro (OU Physical Tank) Hydro Pump 66.75 - 78.68% (Secret Sword) 17.76 - 21.06%

Slowbro (OU Choice Specs) Hydro Pump 66.75 - 78.68% (Secret Sword) 24.11 - 28.42%

Slowbro (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 66.75 - 78.68% (Secret Sword) 17.76 - 21.06%

Gastrodon (OU Tank) (Secret Sword) 66.9 - 78.87% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Hydro Pump 67.18 - 79.25% (Secret Sword) 33.43 - 39.62%

Gastrodon (OU Choice Specs) (Secret Sword) 67.37 - 79.43% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Feraligatr (OU Swords Dance) Hydro Pump 68.18 - 80.21% (Secret Sword) 55.34 - 65.24%

Politoed (OU 3 Attacks) (Secret Sword) 68.22 - 80.72% Hydro Pump 56.51 - 66.66%

Kingdra (OU Choice Specs) (Secret Sword) 68.67 - 81.01% Hydro Pump 36.07 - 42.4%

Quagsire (OU Curse) Hydro Pump 69.54 - 82.23% (Secret Sword) 40.35 - 47.46%

Quagsire (OU Specially Defensive) Hydro Pump 69.54 - 82.23% (Secret Sword) 40.35 - 47.46%

Virizion (OU Dual Screens) (Secret Sword) 70.2 - 82.64% Hydro Pump 45.33 - 53.62%

Kingdra (OU Special Rain Dance) (Secret Sword) 72.33 - 85.33% Hydro Pump 38 - 44.66%

Venusaur (OU Special Growth) Hydro Pump 72.51 - 85.43% (Secret Sword) 40.06 - 47.35%

Venusaur (OU Mixed Growth) Hydro Pump 72.75 - 85.71% (Secret Sword) 44.85 - 53.15%

Deoxys-D (OU Bulky Spiker) Hydro Pump 74.01 - 87.17% (Secret Sword) 22.69 - 26.64%

Ninetales (OU Specially Defensive [Drought]) (Secret Sword) 74.85 - 88.57% Hydro Pump 67.42 - 80.57%

Dragonite (OU Mixed Attacker (Rain)) Hydro Pump 75.23 - 88.85% (Secret Sword) 33.43 - 39.62%

Dragonite (OU Mixed Attacker (Classic)) Hydro Pump 75.23 - 88.85% (Secret Sword) 33.43 - 39.62%

Porygon2 (OU Defensive Duck) Hydro Pump 75.4 - 89.03% (Secret Sword) 60.96 - 72.19%

Cresselia (OU Dual Screens Support) Hydro Pump 76.35 - 89.86% (Secret Sword) 16.21 - 18.91%

Togekiss (OU Paralysis Abuse) Hydro Pump 76.47 - 90.1% (Secret Sword) 57.75 - 68.18%

Rotom-W (OU Bulky Attacker) Hydro Pump 76.57 - 90.33% (Secret Sword) 72.49 - 85.87%

Alomomola (OU Wish Support) Hydro Pump 76.77 - 90.44% (Secret Sword) 32.2 - 38.2%

Mandibuzz (OU Specially Defensive) Hydro Pump 77.12 - 90.8% (Secret Sword) 46.69 - 55.18%

Gorebyss (OU SmashPass) Hydro Pump 77.7 - 91.71% (Secret Sword) 63.37 - 74.84%

Breloom (OU Bulk Up) (Secret Sword) 77.81 - 91.87% Hydro Pump 70.31 - 82.81%

Chansey (OU Wish) (Secret Sword) 77.84 - 92.04% Hydro Pump 39.77 - 47.01%

Chansey (OU Counter) (Secret Sword) 77.84 - 92.04% Hydro Pump 39.77 - 47.01%

Cresselia (OU Support) Hydro Pump 78.6 - 92.79% (Secret Sword) 14.86 - 17.56%

Cresselia (OU Calm Mind) Hydro Pump 78.6 - 92.79% (Secret Sword) 16.66 - 19.59%

Ferrothorn (OU Standard) (Secret Sword) 78.97 - 93.75% Hydro Pump 46.87 - 55.39%

Roserade (OU Toxic Spikes) Hydro Pump 80.15 - 94.27% (Secret Sword) 63.74 - 75.19%

Jirachi (OU Specially Defensive) Hydro Pump 79.7 - 94.3% (Secret Sword) 51.23 - 60.39%

Throh (OU Bulk Up) Hydro Pump 80.6 - 95.15% (Secret Sword) 54.73 - 64.66%

Porygon2 (OU Trick Room) Hydro Pump 81.28 - 95.72% (Secret Sword) 80.74 - 95.18%

Cradily (OU Support) (Secret Sword) 81.38 - 95.74% Hydro Pump 0 - 0%

Politoed (OU Choice Specs) (Secret Sword) 81.61 - 96.57% Hydro Pump 67.6 - 79.75%

Politoed (OU Choice Scarf) (Secret Sword) 81.61 - 96.57% Hydro Pump 67.6 - 79.75%

Kingdra (OU Mixed Rain Dance) (Secret Sword) 82.81 - 97.93% Hydro Pump 39.17 - 46.04%

Kingdra (OU Mixed Dragon Dance) (Secret Sword) 82.81 - 97.93% Hydro Pump 39.17 - 46.04%

Rotom-C (OU Offensive Scout) Hydro Pump 83.06 - 97.98% (Secret Sword) 78.62 - 93.14%

Deoxys-D (OU Toxic Staller) Hydro Pump 83.88 - 98.68% (Secret Sword) 19.73 - 23.35%

Rotom-W (OU SubSplit) Hydro Pump 83.81 - 98.75% (Secret Sword) 80.91 - 95.85%

Virizion (OU Offensive Calm Mind) (Secret Sword) 83.64 - 99.07% Hydro Pump 54.01 - 63.88%

Virizion (OU Swords Dance) (Secret Sword) 83.64 - 99.07% Hydro Pump 60.18 - 71.29%

Whimsicott (OU Prankster) Hydro Pump 85.18 - 100.3% (Secret Sword) 51.23 - 60.49%

Add 4 to the "I can survive 2 Hydro Pumps" List. Still pretty good. Bad for Parasect's rep, but good for everyone else.

There's nothing to "lol" about. Life Orb does have certain advantages over Leftovers, like being able to revenge things more easily and rivaling the power of Specs while being able to switch moves. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Keldeo Item Usage taken from 2 sites; the first being Smogon:
| Item | 70.3 | Leftovers |
| Item | 10.5 | Life Orb |
| Item | 6.1 | Choice Specs | (BELIEVE THE HYPE! Seriously, I wasn't kidding about Choice Items in DW OU being bad.)

The second will remained unnamed for...reasons...
1| Leftovers | 60.37 %
2| Lum Berry | 13.07 %
3| Life Orb | 10.19 %
4| Choice Specs | 6.65 %

It's kind of universal that Life Orb is counter-productive for Calm Mind. Virizion can sometimes get away with it because of Giga Drain, but Keldeo has no recovery in a world with Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Sandstorm, Choice-mons, & Priority so that damage adds up real fast and all Life Orb will do a good chunk of the time is make it easier for opponents to revenge YOU not the other way around. The power's nice, and yes it is a choice, but it's also a gamble.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I have tested both Leftovers and Life Orb on Calm Mind Keldeo for a while, and have found Life Orb more successful in my tests. I often find it difficult for Keldeo to boost with Calm Mind (especially if I don't invest in its defenses), and the extra damage output with Life Orb is VERY noticeable, especially when you need to outright revenge kill stuff with it. I see Keldeo as more of a hit-and-run attacker than a sweeper (and Life Orb sometimes gives it the ability to sweep without relying on Calm Mind).

 

[Animals]

There's almost no reason to run Leftovers on Keldeo in all honesty. It doesn't take hits as well as anyone is claiming it to be. It's not in the same leagues as Infernape (one hit usually spells the end), but a strong enough neutral hit is going to cause problems or death no matter what. Even with 1 Calm Mind boost, a strong enough Electric-type hit (from, say, Raikou) has a chance to KO you regardless. What is leftovers doing anyway? Removing the Stealth Rock damage which you're already resistant to? Keldeo shouldn't be investing into its defenses considering it's amazing Speed stat, which is higher than Garchomp's so why are you saying it's too slow, but it also has a Special Attack that is 1 point lower than Garchomp's Attack stat. All with a move that attacks on the physical side of the spectrum so it is not walled by the likes of Blissey and Chansey.

 

[Katakiri]

There's almost no reason to run Leftovers on Keldeo in all honesty. It doesn't take hits as well as anyone is claiming it to be. It's not in the same leagues as Infernape (one hit usually spells the end), but a strong enough neutral hit is going to cause problems or death no matter what. Even with 1 Calm Mind boost, a strong enough Electric-type hit (from, say, Raikou) has a chance to KO you regardless. What is leftovers doing anyway? Removing the Stealth Rock damage which you're already resistant to? Keldeo shouldn't be investing into its defenses considering it's amazing Speed stat, which is higher than Garchomp's so why are you saying it's too slow, but it also has a Special Attack that is 1 point lower than Garchomp's Attack stat. All with a move that attacks on the physical side of the spectrum so it is not walled by the likes of Blissey and Chansey.

You completely fail to understand that Leftovers doesn't equal Defensive.
Infernape is weaker AND frailer than Keldeo.
No one EVER said Keldeo is investing in Defense. Ever.
You question what I said when I listed clear reasons why I said them. Learn to read.
And the rest of your post is random, obvious facts that have nothing to do with any of this. At all. And stop comparing Keldeo to Garchomp. It's a VERY bad comparison.

I have tested both Leftovers and Life Orb on Calm Mind Keldeo for a while, and have found Life Orb more successful in my tests. I often find it difficult for Keldeo to boost with Calm Mind (especially if I don't invest in its defenses), and the extra damage output with Life Orb is VERY noticeable, especially when you need to outright revenge kill stuff with it. I see Keldeo as more of a hit-and-run attacker than a sweeper (and Life Orb sometimes gives it the ability to sweep without relying on Calm Mind).

Exactly! It's a trade-off. Leftovers provides you with more opportunities to Calm Mind, Life Orb limits those opportunities but you get more power before & when you do. Like I said, it's a gamble. But again, Keldeo is easy to force out. You have no recovery so you eat those hazards & small hits permanently. Leftovers lets Keldeo stall-out Pokemon like CM Latias & Jellicent to gain more CMs until you have enough to KO them out-right. With Life Orb, the damage adds up too fast. You get more power faster with Life Orb, but you lose chances to CM and, most importantly, staying power. Add some Sand and smart switching and Keldeo's HP goes down VERY fast every turn he attacks.

The positives of Leftovers far out-weigh it's negatives as well as the positives of Life Orb. Again, it is preference and if you want to take that gamble, more power to you, but it is a gamble.

 

[Animals]

Second off my point about Leftovers being useless is you're not going to get any more opportunity to set up Calm Mind since Keldeo is weak defensively. You're getting at most two Calm Minds no matter what item you're running before you're in danger of getting KOed. Even then some pokemon can easily KO you through that +1 Special Defense boost. Keldeo needs to have the freedom to switch between moves and have a extra power to boost it up. That is why Leftovers are basically useless.

 

[Katakiri]

Second off my point about Leftovers being useless is you're not going to get any more opportunity to set up Calm Mind since Keldeo is weak defensively. You're getting at most two Calm Minds no matter what item you're running before you're in danger of getting KOed. Even then some pokemon can easily KO you through that +1 Special Defense boost. Keldeo needs to have the freedom to switch between moves and have a extra power to boost it up. That is why Leftovers are basically useless.

You get more opportunities because, and make sure you LISTEN because this part is important, KELDEO STAYS ALIVE LONGER. Ain't that just the craziest thing you've ever heard? It's not getting hit that Keldeo's worried about, it's residual damage, Life Orb damage, Spikes, Sandstorm, it all adds up and makes you easier & easier to KO every single turn. When Keldeo forces a Pokemon out, he gets some HP back, when he KOs a Pokemon, he gets some HP back. Are you getting this concept yet?

Edit: I'm getting off this topic. It's going in circles. God forbid anyone just says "Thank you, I'll consider your advice". That'd be too easy. No point in making a post just to say that so I'm editting this one.
Edits 2: I read the post below me... Wow.

 

[Animals]

So what you're saying it has more opportunities to come in? In none of your posts did you say that. You just said it "can Calm Mind more due to recovery." I saw a flaw with that and then you got extremely hostile for no reason. While, yes, Leftovers Keldeo can switch in a few more times (not really that many more, unless you're only bringing it in on revenge kills) it isn't worth it in the long run. You can probably ask most Dream World players and they will say Keldeo is one of those pokemon that every team needs to prepare for, because it almost has no counters. Also without Life Orb and a Calm Mind under its belt Keldeo isn't KOing much right off the bat. Especially out of rain. But Keldeo is probably the most terrifying rain sweeper than exists.

 

[Katakiri]

You can probably ask most Dream World players and they will say Keldeo is one of those pokemon that every team needs to prepare for, because it almost has no counters.

Hide

A list of Pokemon that beats CM Keldeo 1v1 off the top of my head: (Sorry for listing DW Pokemon, but he asked for it)

Latios
Latias
Alakazam
Tornadus
Thundurus
Serperior
Celebi
Jellicent
Espeon
Azelf
Raikou
Jolteon
Starmie
Slowbro
Slowking
Crobat
Dragonite
Salamence
SS Ludicolo
Virizion
Scarf Rotom-W
Scarf Rotom-C
Ditto
Amoongus
Toxicroak
Parasect
Gengar
Banana-Man: Tropius
Gyarados
Scarf Haxorus
Scarf Garchomp
Scarf Keldeo
Meloetta
Genesect
Shedinja
Sceptile
Sash-Reversal Dugtrio
Sturdy Skarmory
Metagross
Gorebyss
Chloro Venusaur
Chloro Sawsbuck
Chloro Lilligant
Roserade
Ferrothorn
Jirachi

That's all I'm going to list. If you have any one of these Pokemon on your team, Keldeo should have a pretty hard time sweeping your team without a boost. Hell, Scarf Shadow Tag Chandelure can come in and KO Keldeo after some Life Orb damage...I forgot Exeggutor...derp.

I love Keldeo, but man is he over-hyped right now.


This is the final thing I'll say about Lefties. All I'm saying is give Leftovers a shot. You'll see & understand exactly what I've been talking about. You don't have to like Lefties, I don't expect you to, I just want you to understand.

...Keldeo's not even out yet and I'm tired of him.

 

[Demist]

...Christ.

Hide

A list of Pokemon that beats CM Keldeo 1v1 off the top of my head: (Sorry for listing DW Pokemon, but he asked for it)

Latios
Latias
Alakazam
Tornadus
Thundurus
Serperior
Celebi
Jellicent
Espeon
Azelf
Raikou
Jolteon
Starmie
Slowbro
Slowking
Crobat
Dragonite
Salamence
SS Ludicolo
Virizion
Scarf Rotom-W
Scarf Rotom-C
Ditto
Amoongus
Toxicroak
Parasect
Gengar
Banana-Man: Tropius
Gyarados
Scarf Haxorus
Scarf Garchomp
Scarf Keldeo
Meloetta
Genesect
Shedinja
Sceptile
Sash-Reversal Dugtrio
Sturdy Skarmory
Metagross
Gorebyss
Chloro Venusaur
Chloro Sawsbuck
Chloro Lilligant
Roserade
Ferrothorn
Jirachi

That's all I'm going to list. If you have any one of these Pokemon on your team, Keldeo should have a pretty hard time sweeping your team without a boost. Hell, Scarf Shadow Tag Chandelure can come in and KO Keldeo after some Life Orb damage...I forgot Exeggutor...derp.

I love Keldeo, but man is he over-hyped right now.


This is the final thing I'll say about Lefties. All I'm saying is give Leftovers a shot. You'll see & understand exactly what I've been talking about. You don't have to like Lefties, I don't expect you to, I just want you to understand.

...Keldeo's not even out yet and I'm tired of him.

Hmmm... It may just be me, but the fact is that you will rarely have a good mach-up against Keldeo. I don't see Keldeo alone as a super huge threat. The things that makes it dangerous is support. Rain and ability to set up on the switch is why it is so hard to switch-in safely. Also, I somehow fail to see how does Jellicent counter pony. It resists both of its STABs but LO HP Ghost 2HKOs specially defensive Jelli iirc, while all it can do is Toxic or Night Shade or whatever. It is more as a setup bait than a counter, but that may be just me. And as Katakiri said it is way too overhyped as for now so lets wait until it actually gets released until the next discussion.
P.S You forgot Mantine xD

 

[alexwolf]

Not wanting to get into the arguement, but Katakiri is doing the exactly opposite of what most people are doing about Keldeo, underestimating him.

Saying that he won't be a frightening Specs user because Ferrothorn and Politoed can scout his moves with Protect and because he only 2hkoes pokes and he doesn't straight up ohko them is wrong and misleading. Specs Keldeo is fine with 2hkoing almost the entire meta with just its stabs (in rain), because this is all that it needs. He forces something out, and then he threatens your whole team for a 2hko. I don't know for you, but for me, this sounds very damn dangerous. If teams have trouble switching in on SpecsToed without a Celebi, a Latias or a Jellicent, then imagine how threatening Specs Keldeo would be, which btw can simply outspeed and 2hko most Celebi while they switch in(in the rain of 'course).

Also comparing him to Latios is a bit faulty, because Specs Latios's main fault is his Pursuit weakness which is further compounded by the fact that Ttar is everywhere. If it wasn't for the Pursuit weakness, Specs Latios could murder whatever he wanted with DM, without getting itself killed the next turn. Just imagine how frightening Specs Latios would be without the Pursuit weakness...

Finally DW stats are not the most reliable source. There is a difference between a fully competitive tier and a tier where players go to test new stuff or use their favourite mons, which are not available yet. Leftovers and Life Orb both seem equally viable on Kledeo, and the item choice really depends on the role that you want Keldeo to take. If you want him to be your final sweeper after his counters/checks are gone/weakened, then Lefties are prefered so that you can't be worn down and don't fear priority, while also getting more set-up oportunities. But if you want Keldeo to nuke the opponent and wallbreak better, while also potentially cleaning up some games, Life Orb is better.

 

[haunter]

Finally DW stats are not the most reliable source.

This is the main reason why this discussion has turned into sheer speculation. DW is a completely different metagame when compared to Standard OU. In a meta where Excadrill, Garchomp, ST Chandelure, Blaziken and other extremely powerful mons are dominant, Keldeo's true power may be understimated. I think that we'll have to see how the Standard OU meta will be when Keldeo is released (with B\W 2 hopefully, bringing something new, such as move tutors etc) to fully understand its potential.

 

[kingtrace]

I'm not really well known on smogon, but I've played DW on other servers and managed to get to around 1350 on PO server once upon a moon, and during Poke Battler Centers golden years I peaked at #4 on their ladder. Having played almost exclusively DW, I can say that Keldeo is certainly a threat there, but is in no way broken. As Katakiri helpfully pointed out, it has a list of counters, checks, and revenge killers so long it's nearly laughable. I have never used specs myself, and I've never seen anyone else do it on a serious team. Being choice locked kills this thing horribly, opening it up for walls like Chansey or Ferrothorn to status or setup and for slower threats to revenge or Sub. As far as OU goes, I have no idea. Rotom-W hurts Specs badly by revenge, and the same walls are still useable, so I'd say it'd probably be an OU threat, but not unstopable.
As for Life Orb versus lefties on CM set, I never even saw it as a contest. Life Orb murders the usefullness of this thing, to the point that almost any scafer can ko easily, weather is eating it alive, and a burn for jelli becomes a serious issue, which is a problem if you're running a special set. Not even starting on toxic. Leftovers gives it more opporetunties to set-up, and gives the sweep so much more longevity that I believe easily outweighes the immediate power trip.
Just a personal opinion. :)

 

[Murkglow]

It's kind of universal that Life Orb is counter-productive for Calm Mind.

Uh what? Life Orb + Calm Mind is not "universally" counter productive.

 

[Animals]

...Christ.

Hide

A list of Pokemon that beats CM Keldeo 1v1 off the top of my head: (Sorry for listing DW Pokemon, but he asked for it)

Latios
Latias
Alakazam
Tornadus
Thundurus
Serperior
Celebi
Jellicent
Espeon
Azelf
Raikou
Jolteon
Starmie
Slowbro
Slowking
Crobat
Dragonite
Salamence
SS Ludicolo
Virizion
Scarf Rotom-W
Scarf Rotom-C
Ditto
Amoongus
Toxicroak
Parasect
Gengar
Banana-Man: Tropius
Gyarados
Scarf Haxorus
Scarf Garchomp
Scarf Keldeo
Meloetta
Genesect
Shedinja
Sceptile
Sash-Reversal Dugtrio
Sturdy Skarmory
Metagross
Gorebyss
Chloro Venusaur
Chloro Sawsbuck
Chloro Lilligant
Roserade
Ferrothorn
Jirachi

That's all I'm going to list. If you have any one of these Pokemon on your team, Keldeo should have a pretty hard time sweeping your team without a boost. Hell, Scarf Shadow Tag Chandelure can come in and KO Keldeo after some Life Orb damage...I forgot Exeggutor...derp.

I love Keldeo, but man is he over-hyped right now.


This is the final thing I'll say about Lefties. All I'm saying is give Leftovers a shot. You'll see & understand exactly what I've been talking about. You don't have to like Lefties, I don't expect you to, I just want you to understand.

...Keldeo's not even out yet and I'm tired of him.

I don't understand why people use 1v1 as a reason for a pokemon having counters. That's not how it works. A counter needs to be able to switch into the the threat, and reliably force it out of the match, either by switching or KOing it. Out of all the pokemon you listed the only two that can actually reliably come in is Slowking and Amoongus. The others are 2HKOed by Hidden Power Ghost, Hydro Pump, or Sacred Sword. Also the fact you listed Ferrothorn as a counter to Keldeo shows really how much you're underestimating it. +1 Sacred Sword is always KOing standard Ferrothorn.

 

[eriados]

A list of Pokemon that beats CM Keldeo 1v1 off the top of my head: (Sorry for listing DW Pokemon, but he asked for it)

Latios
Latias
Alakazam
Tornadus
Thundurus
Serperior
Celebi
Jellicent
Espeon
Azelf
Raikou
Jolteon
Starmie
Slowbro
Slowking
Crobat
Dragonite
Salamence
SS Ludicolo
Virizion
Scarf Rotom-W
Scarf Rotom-C
Ditto
Amoongus
Toxicroak
Parasect
Gengar
Banana-Man: Tropius
Gyarados
Scarf Haxorus
Scarf Garchomp
Scarf Keldeo
Meloetta
Genesect
Shedinja
Sceptile
Sash-Reversal Dugtrio
Sturdy Skarmory
Metagross
Gorebyss
Chloro Venusaur
Chloro Sawsbuck
Chloro Lilligant
Roserade
Ferrothorn
Jirachi

That's all I'm going to list. If you have any one of these Pokemon on your team, Keldeo should have a pretty hard time sweeping your team without a boost. Hell, Scarf Shadow Tag Chandelure can come in and KO Keldeo after some Life Orb damage...I forgot Exeggutor...derp.

I don't think you understand the difference between a counter and a check. A counter needs to be able to switch in on any of Keldeo's, in this example, moves without being 2HKOed and then beat Keldeo 1 on 1. I bolded the Pokemon in your list that cannot counter CM Keldeo because they cannot switch into one of its STAB moves, and I'm not even including one of the various Hidden Power types that CM Keldeo carries 99% of the time, reducing your list of "counters" even further. Furthermore, calling Sash Dugtrio and Sturdy Skarmory counters is preposterous because hazards are nearly always up in any battle by the time Keldeo (or any sweeper) comes in.

Most of the pokemon you listed are checks, meaning they need to switch into a specific move of Keldeo's or come in for the revenge kill to be effective.

It is good to note that Specs Keldeo destroys most of the remaining Pokemon on that list save Jellicent and a few others.

As for Life Orb versus lefties on CM set, I never even saw it as a contest. Life Orb murders the usefullness of this thing, to the point that almost any scafer can ko easily, weather is eating it alive, and a burn for jelli becomes a serious issue, which is a problem if you're running a special set. Not even starting on toxic. Leftovers gives it more opporetunties to set-up, and gives the sweep so much more longevity that I believe easily outweighes the immediate power trip.
Just a personal opinion. :)

If you are having problems with status, Lum would be a better option then Lefties and it lets you get that extra boost on the status inducer that thinks it can wall you.

Alexwolf basically stated everything else I wanted to say on this topic.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Do you think Rain is required to run Keldeo? I might want to try it over Suicune or Virizion on a couple of my teams :)

 

[Porii Sames]

Tbh Lum is superior in many ways to Lefties on Keldeo. Trading a bit of HP to reduce Sand damage or help with hazards for the ability to crash through stall teams? Yes please.

 

[BurningMan]

Do you think Rain is required to run Keldeo? I might want to try it over Suicune or Virizion on a couple of my teams :)

No i think it can work regardless of the weather (well except for sun), however it receives a 1.5x damage bonus for its main stab in the rain making it even more of a threat.
Keldeo is a Pokemon that will need almost no support and will always be able to pull its weight on a team, Ferrothorn seems like a good partner though as spikes and SR support make it alot easier to muscle through its defensive counters and it they have decent defensive synergie, not to mention that both benefit from rain.

 

[StallMandibuzz]

Who doesn't like Spike/SR support? :P Toxic Spikes are even better, get to poison those bulky Waters and Grass types before slicing them to bits with Secret Sword. Although Toxic works just as good due to Toxic Spikes being absorbed when something like Venusaur or Muk comes out. Keldeo is pretty powerful, but it might not be just as powerful as everyone's hyping it up to be.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Can we cut the sass? A thread about an unreleased Pokemon should not be filled with as much bickering as we have here. I'm calling out Katakiri as the main culprit.

Anyway, when Keldeo is released I may make a return to OU. Its base Speed, offensive prowess, and typing make it the perfect rain abuser. It beats Tyranitar, Ninetales, and the more rarely seen but still present Abomasnow and Hippowdon with two moves (yes, you'll have to be wary of Ninetales's SolarBeam but it's not that big of a problem with a Calm Mind). Keldeo has plenty of opportunities to switch in, too. Tyranitar cries while Keldeo gets a free Calm Mind which makes it more durable (people seem to forget this) and significantly more powerful. That Special Defense boost in sand isn't going to help Tyranitar thanks to Secret Sword. Honestly, Calm Mind / Surf|Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / Hidden Power (Ghost/Ice) is the easiest set to use and is able to stop so many Pokemon. I hope to God this Pokemon doesn't get overlooked.

Finally DW stats are not the most reliable source. There is a difference between a fully competitive tier and a tier where players go to test new stuff or use their favourite mons, which are not available yet.

I can say with 100% certainty that this user has never played DW before. How about before you make an assumption that a metagame isn't competitive because it contains different Pokemon, you go try it out?

 

[alexwolf]

I can say with 100% certainty that this user has never played DW before. How about before you make an assumption that a metagame isn't competitive because it contains different Pokemon, you go try it out?

Finally DW stats are not the most reliable source. There is a difference between a fully competitive tier and a tier where players go to test new stuff or use their favourite mons, which are not available yet.

 

[Tobes]

You might as well say that OU isn't a "fully" competitive tier, because I have no idea what criterion you could pull out of your ass that couldn't be applied to OU, save for official tournaments.

But anyway, Keldeo thread. Not Dream World thread.

 

[Jaetheho]

Yes, i agree with tobes, dream world OU is as competitive as OU, if not more.

I found keldeo very underwhelming and underused in DW OU, however.

 

[alexwolf]

What i meant by fully competitive, was that more people are playing to win, doing the best they can.

So, in the end of the day, standard OU is more competitive than DW OU, because much more players play standard OU, and they are trying harder to win, especially higher on the ladder.

Anyway let's end this discussion because it is honestly pointless. I don't think that anyone disagrees that standard OU is a more competitive tier than DW OU, so disagreeing to disagree is pointless.