Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test.

[phantom]

Just saying, if it's a rain team Starmie is going to be running Thunder, which KOs after prior damage. I also wouldn't discredit Psyshock so easily.

83.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes and weather

I'm willing to accept SR as a given battle condition, but don't and through around this bullshit to try to prove your argument. Especially since by the way your presenting your argument, it's as if only Starmie is taking prior damage while Keldeo is always in tip-top shape. Defensive Starmie is only shaky check to you because you make it seem like it is with all these bias damage calculations and scenarios. That's not even mentioning how Keldeo has to predict the starmie switch-in correctly. And if you're assuming the Keldeo is dangerous because of its ability to sweep late-game, well newsflash, so is pretty much everything else.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I'm really on the fence for Keldeo. While I agree it's a monster to offensive teams, it really doesn't break through defensive teams as well as some people claim. I mean sure the Specs set can 2HKO everything, but that doesn't really make it broken, and it does have pretty solid counters / checks. Jellicent, Tentecruel, Toxicroak, Latias, Slowking, Celebi etc all come to mind for dealing with Keldeo. I also don't like the fact that people are saying Keldeo is broken because it's partners can trap it's counters. That can be said about so many Pokemon, and I really don't think we should be talking about team mates in this kind of a discussion, because we'd just be going around in circles about what team mates beat what.

I mean, I like to compare Keldeo to Landorus, as they have similar counters.

Keldeo doesn't have U-turn. This I think is the biggest thing for me, because you can't just U-turn out of Keldeo's counters and trap them. Yes you can double switch, but I believe that takes skill and risk, which I think should be encouraged. I think Landorus-I without U-turn wouldn't have been broken for this reason.

Keldeo has checks that have immunities. Again, I think this is also pretty huge. Yes Landorus-I had checks that were immune to Earth Power or Focus Blast, but Landorus-I had the ability to switch moves. Keldeo more often than not is choice locked, and so it's hard walled depending on what move it locks itself into. I dunno if this is enough to keep it OU, but it's something to consider when thinking about Keldeo actually being removed from the OU tier.

Keldeo isn't immune to Thunder Wave, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes. Although not a massive point, I think it's good to note that Keldeo is taking a lot more damage from Stall teams than Landorus, as Landorus would only be taking SR and LO recoil damage (when switching in).

This is what makes me think Keldeo might not be broken, but I'm on the fence as on the other hand, Keldeo has the potential to run through offensive teams and stall teams.

 

[Pocket]

Watch your tone, Icecream. However, I do agree that an offensive Rain Starmie would use Thunder > Tbolt & that the last calc is silly

 

[Chou Toshio]

More bulk than Machamp, 129 Attack AND SpA with 252 EVs in both, better offensive typing and the same Speed as Infernape. When we first became aware of Keldeo with BW's release, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it would be ridiculous. However, that was coming from the 4th gen mentality-- people still relied on Skarm-Bliss, Ferrothorn and Jellicent hadn't proven their worth, water immunities were still scarce, and we hadn't allowed Lati@s in the metagame in ages. At the time, DPPt's defensive Pokemon had a hard time handling Infernape, but honestly-- I think BW's metagame handles Keldeo better than DPPt's handled Salamence.

Keldeo has everything in the world going for it except coverage (and having a useless ability). But that one weakness is more than enough.

I think Keldeo would be a lot harder to handle in a metagame where Physical and Special walls were more clearly divided, with Special walls weak to Fighting as was traditional in previous gens. This gen, defensive Pokemon tend to be more balanced, and it's not Blissey, but Jirachi, Celebi, or Latias that is the metagame's major special sponge. Yes Keldeo plays a role in that, but Blissey hasn't been a premier special wall for any period of this generation, and the sheer power of Focus Blast/Superpower on Alakazam, Tornadus, Thundurus-T and Hydreigon pretty much ensure that Tyranitar can't handle over half the metagame's major special threats. Unlike Tornadus-T or Landorus-I who's best checks were extremely niche (like Bronzong), Keldeo's best checks are great in number, high in reliability, and extremely main stream.

I mean, I think it goes without question that Celebi, Latias, Jellicent, Starmie, Amoongus, Venusaur, Toxicroak, etc. are all solid checks. When we're talking about base 55 and 70 moves like Icy Wind and Hidden Power as your main answers, you KNOW we're talking about relatively solid checks. I mean, in today's OU-- how many defensive Pokemon can switch in knowing the worst they have to fear is a Hidden Power? How EASY is it to take advantage of a Pokemon relying on Hidden Power, especially if it's frequently choice locked? Then there's all the other Pokemon like Rotom-W, Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, etc. etc. who can all check it under the right conditions. This isn't a Pokemon the metagame doesn't have answers to. For a BW offensive threat, that's a lot of solid answers, even if none of them are perfect.

It has been pointed out that Pursuit is really effective with Keldeo; but it's not universal (Grass/Poisons and Toxicroak), and most of these Pokemon have ways of getting around Pursuit. Latios/Latias/Starmie can use Water attacks to outright defeat Scizor/Tyranitar that aren't specifically built for trapping them (LOTS of special bulk), and Latias can set up Reflect to get out of a pinch. Jellicent is way faster than both and has Scald and W-o-W. Celebi isn't even that afraid of Pursuit if it doesn't switch out, and even has Baton Pass-- And a team could be in deep shit if it tries to Pursuit Celebi if it has Baton Pass and has Lucario or Terrakion as teammates.

That's another thing, even if Pursuit can take down Keldeo's checks, Pursuit itself isn't a risk-less move. It's not that much use if Dugtrio comes in, kills off your Tyranitar, and now you've got to figure out how to make use of your Keldeo in the Sun for the rest of the game. It's not that great if they then set up on your Pursuit user with a Garchomg, Dragonite, or Luke and get ready to sweep through half your team.

So why are we even considering Keldeo as a suspect?

Because it's bulky, powerful, and the fastest attacker in the metagame that isn't weak to Pursuit or SR? I'd personally rather have Keldeo in that position than Garchomp-- considering Keldeo is a LOT easier to find defensive checks to.

Maybe it's because Keldeo has all those things AND hits stupidly hard with Rain boosted Surf/Hydro Pump. THAT is a pretty legitimate argument. I don't think there's any laughing in the face of those rain attacks. Except for its poor coverage movepool, this is a Pokemon really without any notable flaws.

That said though, while it is a top Pokemon, I think it is a manageable one. Certainly, more manageable than DPP Salamence (who I honestly think should have stayed OU, lol).

I don't plan to be a big advocate in Keldeo's case one way or the other, but honestly I think it falls just on the "let's keep it" side of the fence.

(No harm in testing though)

 

[MMII]

In a metagame with Gothitelle, I don't think being able to trap your counters is something unique to Keldeo. Nevermind the fact that you arguing more on how a specific core/combo is broken and not the suspected Pokemon. (which I know Shrang has repeatedly brought up before)

However, I think even on it's own and Keldeo is exceedingly difficult to switch into and generally overpowering for the metagame. Keldeo has excellent stats, defensive and offensive typing, and even a movepool with just enough tricks to make up for what it lacks. I think, though, that before the introduction of the Expert Belt set he was a lot more managable. Specs is great for blowing apart defensive cores, Scarf is arguably the best cleaner and revenge killer in OU, and the CM sets are good at doing what CM mons do. Each set, however, had some crippling flaw that made it a lot easier to play around Keldeo whether it was being Choice locked, not strong enough to break past walls, not fast enough to continue posing a threat, or lacking key coverage. The Expert Belt set changed all that, in a single set you could take advantage of his natural power, have the flexibility in move choice to ease prediction and avoid being forced out by single resists, all your necessary coverage options to minimize the amount of safe switch-ins, and, what I feel to be the most important, Icy Wind on a set that has all the tools to capitalize on it to bypass the most common form of checking in this metagame and minimize almost completely any lack in speed to open up the possibility for sweeping.

Icy Wind is so good on E-Belt Keldeo, it's like U-turn was for some recent bans in that it allows Keldeo to bypass many checks/counters and even turn them into another free turn to apply offensive pressure. Even if Keldeo did learn Ice Beam I would still use the current E-Belt set and consider it one of his best. Although the addition of such a move would definitely be a major boon to Keldeo's other sets, for the E-Belt set its advantage over Icy Wind is mostly only to help Keldeo muscle past the more dedicated defensive grass checks (Amoongus) and open up the possibility of a different Hidden Power type to beat other checks/counters that rely on their niche typing (Toxicroak, Gyarados). Icy Wind has the key advantage of dropping the opponent's speed which, in a metagame that often relies on faster offensive checks abusing their speed + bulk/key resists and on a Pokemon with such large outright power, speed, and coverage, makes Keldeo one of the hardest things to safely switch into. The LatiTwins, for example, are otherwise solid direct answers to Keldeo on offensive teams due their key resists to Keldeo's STABs coupled with their natural bulk to minimize the damage from mispredicts and superior speed to threaten a OHKO. With Icy Wind factored in, however, they become prediction reliant as getting hit by the move removes their speed advantage and adds enough previous damage to setup them up for a follow up KO (Latias will need a tad bit of prior damage) allowing the Keldeo to maintain offensive pressure and force yet another retreat. This applies for others, such as Alakazam or Starmie, and forces your opponent into a situation where they have either sack something to bring these checks in safely or take their chances and risk losing their stops to a Keldeo sweep one by one. (which with 108 speed, there won't be many of to spare) The safest options to keep E-Belt Keldeo at bay is to use dedicated defensive checks, which are very easy to take advantage of in this metagame, or a key defensive typing combination, which lack options and some are even SR weak. Sure, Keldeo's other sets will perform better against specific types of teams but E-Belt Keldeo is the most generally dangerous set and the most difficult to handle without excellent play or very dedicated effort in teambuilding.

ban plz

 

[PDC]

Considering Icy Wind already does KO most of the Dragons with the Expert Belt boost anyway, and how it basically can shut down most of its offensive counters like Latias with it, I definitely think it is the overall superior option. Melee hit it right on the spot, it definitely is a better option for Keldeo than most people think.

Keldeo doesn't exactly "force" you to put a Lati@s or Celebi on your team, there are a lot of other checks, but those 2 for the most part are the most flexible and common. Basically Toxicroak has to be used on Rain almost exclusively, and it is rather fragile. Jellicent can be beaten by CM Keldeo with HP Ghost with ease. Jellicent can literally not touch a healthy Keldeo outside of maybe burning it or hitting it lightly with Shadow Ball. I believe Squirrel used it in the World Cup Semi-Finals, and it really did preform well. Amoonguss is probably the most solid check outside of Celebi, it is very useful but is also rather team-restricted, which kind of cuts down on its common use as a Keldeo check.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Keldeo is without a doubt one of the most potent special attackers that one has to be worried about in team building. As a stall playing I pretty much always save room for a defensive grass type on my team, partially for Keldeo. If I don't run one, I have Keldeo in the back on my mind and make sure to run other Pokemon to check it: Latias, Jellicent, ect. The specs set is scary, possibly 2HKOing its main counters, like Amoonguss with some passive damage.

Despite this though, these checks and counter for Keldeo are kind of common Pokemon on your average defensive team. Not only are they common, they are usually pretty solid Keldeo checks or even counters. Many of these Pokemon aren't one sided either, I don't think anyone is going to argue with me that Celebi is a one-dimensional Pokemon. Keldeo can only manage its way past them with the right use of a Hidden Power, and / or team support.

I think though that is the key part of the problem, outside of pretty much Amoonguss, Keldeo's defensive checks and counters can all be trapped or killed off with the right moveset. This forces a kind of instant loose situation if it has either or both, making it at the least an up-hill battle for the opponent. It seems to me, that the deciding factor is if kind of offensive play is considered 'broken' or not, and on this I am unsure.

I am on the fence as to whether Keldeo should stay in OU or not. If it was put up for a vote today, I am not sure what I would do at all, and in part I think that perhaps is the biggest reason, at least for me, that it should be suspected, its that it is debatable.

---

On a slightly different topic that I am seeing creep into this: that team support making a Pokemon 'broken' is not a reason to ban it. I disagree with this sentiment, in my mind if some team combination is deemed 'broken' something should to be done about it. This was actually one of the driving forces for me voting ban on Landorus.

 

[emboarrocks]

While Keldeo's power is amazing, it is too easily stopped. Most sets run Surf/Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Icy wind and a Hidden Power type (Unless it's the scarf). Out of the top 50 pokemon in OU stats for the past month, the following can stop it cold in its tracks (assuming they switch in safely), I'm assuming E-belt/LO because if I say choice, people are going to get into an argument on whether the person can predict or not:

Rotom-W
Celebi
Starmie
Gastrodon
Lati@s
Toxicroak
Vaporeon
Gyrados
Tentacruel
Jellicent

These are all commonly seen on OU teams. Yes, keldeo can run Hidden Power to get past one of them but that would still leave it to be walled. For example, it can run HP Bug to get past Celebi but now, it can't touch gyrados or tentacruel. It can run HP electric but now it can't get past Celebi, Lati@s, etc. 108 speed also leaves it outsped by gengar, jolteon, alakazam and the lati twins and speed ties with the other muskateers. Keldeo also has to have rain support to get past a few pokemon such as defensive jirachi. Each one o the sets have crippling weaknesses that don't allow keldeo to be broken. The choice sets will leave it locked into a move. If it had a spammable move, this would be ok but it doesn't. Every time somebody builds a team, they have to have at least one rain counter and several checks. Secret Sword is ok, but you risk a ghost coming in. Hidden Power can help you get past counters but it is very risky on the choice sets. HP Bug when you're predicting a switch? Lol, the volcanera stayed in and quiver danced. Decide to run HP Grass? Now you can't touch gyrados! The E-belt/LO set allows it the freedom of switching moves but it either leaves Keldeo with not enough power or not enough speed.

 

[ginganinja]

While Keldeo's power is amazing, it is too easily stopped. Most sets run Surf/Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Icy wind and a Hidden Power type (Unless it's the scarf). Out of the top 50 pokemon in OU stats for the past month, the following can stop it cold in its tracks (assuming they switch in safely), I'm assuming E-belt/LO because if I say choice, people are going to get into an argument on whether the person can predict or not:
Rotom-W
Celebi
Starmie
Gastrodon
Lati@s
Toxicroak
Vaporeon
Gyrados
Tentacruel
Jellicent

Quick Point, that is a list of pokemon, that can safely switch into SS / Hydro Pump / Icy Wind, ie it does ignore Hidden Power. For example, I would NEVER use Celebi as my sole Keldeo check simply because HP Bug is so common.

Also your list is incorrect.

Rotom-W cannot switch in on either SS or Hydro Pump if rain is up (and it often is). SS does around 50ish so I wouldn't say it "stops it cold" factoring in SR, and the odd but of residual damage. LO obviously does more (although its not seen) so I don't really get it.

Celebi loses to HP Bug which is like the most common Hidden Power I see outside of maybe HP Ice on choiced sets cos people like to run Hydro Pump and Surf sometimes.

Offensive Starmie loses if it comes in on an Icy Wind / HP Bug, and Hydro Pump does a truckload anyway. I really doubt you calced some of this shit, because "LO" (not seen) has like a 68% shot at OHKOing under Rain with Hydro Pump so yea lol, you cannot switch in.

Gastrodon: SS 2KOs if LO, otherwise ur good 2 go

Latios: Loses to SR + Icy Wind on the switch + Follow up HP Bug

Latias: Looks fine

Croak: Looks fine

Vaporeon: Yep

Gyarados: 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in rain: 147-173 (41.64 - 49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - You do not stop it cold.

Tentacruel: Yep

Jellicent: Yep

So really, out of everything on that list, id prolly only consider 6 of them or so safe to the standard Expert Belt Keldeo (im not even assuming the correct Hidden Power every time). That list gets smaller when you factor in LO (maybe 4-5 or so), and smaller still if you factor in Specs (but don't cos thats gives me a fricking headache). Either do your calculations better or someone needs to tell me what "stop it cold in its tracks" means, because for some of the mons on that list, id really disagree with that phrasing!

108 speed also leaves it outsped by gengar, jolteon, alakazam and the lati twins and speed ties with the other muskateers.

Yea ok fine, but Gengar, Jolt, Zam, and Terrakion cannot switch into a Hydro Pump (well Zam can but that brings it straight to sash), and all of the previous + Latios don't like switching into an Icy Wind either. Jolteon is special because it can pretty much only come in on HP Bug, the other attacks either KO or cripple it.

The choice sets will leave it locked into a move. If it had a spammable move, this would be ok but it doesn't.

Since when is a rain boosted Hydro Pump / Surf not fucking spammable :(

Keldeo has a number of checks and counters and weaknesses sure, I don't think anyone is disputing that, but be careful with what you claim Keldeo is countered by, because incorrect infomation really ticks me off.

 

[Nysyr]

When people make the claim that all of Keldeos counters can be trapped with Ttar (which is false actualy), they fail to forget that running Ttar means you no longer have rain to boost your stab attack. This makes Keldeo far easier to deal with, as 2hkos become 3hkos. Scizor takes the place of Ttar on rain teams, but unlike Ttar, is not as safe from prediction with switching into things with impunity.

Keldeo's stabs are actually very easy to wall, and it's coverage moves lack power. Missing Hydros is always a jerk too, so it's very common for scarf sets to carry Surf. Specs is usually Icy wind + HP ghost to hit the most things possible. Only under rain with specs does Keldeo's Hydro Pumps start reaching rediculous levels; most teams should have an answer to these anyways since Politoed is often seen with specs Hydro Pumps and doesn't come in too far behind Keldeo in terms of power with Focus Blast + Hydro. Politoed can also afford to run ice beam, which is notably more powerful than Icy wind is.

The ability for Keldeo to switch up moves comes at the cost of raw power seen in the Specs set, and is noticably easy to wall.

 

[TUO]

I have always had a stand that when it comes to BW2, you need to look at what makes the metagame so called bad and try to fix it. After contemplating a bit on how much Keldeo contributes to a bad metagame like BW2 OU, I decided to take a look at the most prevalent playstyles in the competitive metagme, and how Keldeo can possibly affect them. This is what i ended up getting:

Rain Offense - The premier win condition 80% of the time.
Rain Balanced - Effective here, NPass Celebi+Scarf Keldeo and just a good revenge killer shows off
Sand Offense - KelTar
Sand Balanced/Semi-stall - Well not really, these are more hippo/Stall core/Stout stuff, but this is the primary reason BP Celebi/Jellicent cores are popular here, becuase Keldeo is so prevalent.
Sand Stall - Read Sand Balanced/Semi-stall
Weatherless HO imo the main teams now in HO are Keldeo/Loom/Trapper like Scizor or Weavile or Keldeo/Goth/Sharpedo so let's take that as an effect.
Sun

Keldeo has an effect on most playstyles barring sun, but sun's playstyle and ways of being played is very distorted from how the metagame is, so i wouldn't take it into too much thought. Will edit this later for more stuff

 

[SJCrew]

Perhaps I am the minority in this sentiment, but I still prefer good ol' LO Keldeo. Something can be said for the simplicity of getting a free CM from half of the metagame, and clicking Hydro Pump almost without thinking. Like, seriously, don't even switch in your Tentacruel. I can just wipe out over 2/3 of your HP with +1 LO Hydro Pump and you can't even recover the damage or do anything back.

Also, it seems many people don't have any concept of what a Keldeo counter is. Not surprising, since Keldeo discussion has always been polluted with presuppositions based on what 'should' wall its STABs. I have news for you: LO Hydro Pump does not care what you resist. Especially if you are a bad counter like Gyarados or Rotom or Dragonite. What do those three have in common? Rocks are up and you're not beating him. Gyarados can't even damage him. Why is he in this discussion?

Let me reiterate that I am basing most of my opinion on LO Keldeo. In my opinion, it is the most flexible, powerful, and least prediction-reliant set Keldeo can use. You can know his gameplan and still not beat him. But I guess that's a problem with Keldeo in general: he has more than one dangerous set, and knowing it does not put you in a position to stop him!

 

[yee]

I don't mean to make anything resembling a tl;dr (yet) and I don't want to C/P a single calc, but I believe a very important (relatively speaking) point needs to be digested.

Keldeo is the best pokemon in BW2. Keldeo is the only pokemon left these days that's clearly more powerful than all of the other ones. Kyurem-B and Darmanitan are different for obvious reasons, but comparing Keldeo to more relevant / fast / long-lasting foes like Garchomp and Terrakion makes them look like DPP OU pokemon. Every other pokemon that's a consistently good offensive threat allows you to gather a sense of safety when teambuilding against them; just stack up physical walls / sturdy tank mons like Hippo / Glisc / Lando-T / Tangrowth / Skarm / Forry etc. and they won't bother you much because these friends don't get worn down easily. You can beat the monsters one-on-one or set up a revenge kill while still getting useful work in (I can't practically fit in an explanation of how to do that here). You can't really use Rotom-W or Gyarados in the same way against Keldeo because it makes mincemeat of them: for the purpose of nothing but power demonstration Specs Keldeo can OHKO non-invested Gyara after SR with Hydro. Keldeo can beat any of it's standard checks one-on-one, except for Lati@s which is a unique case because it's initially ineffective against a healthy Sand or Rain team.

Things like Thundurus-T / Kyurem-B / Baton Pass etc. can give you that sense of insecurity where nothing you're doing in normal teambuilding will be ensuring they can't be the thing to beat you. That by itself is not necessarily bad and obviously there is always a certain chance some random threat will dismantle your team. More steadily usable threats that you would rely upon to do a certain amount of work every game like Chomp / Rak / Dnite you can tank or stack against by simply maximizing your teams efficiency while preparing for the things you'll encounter most often.. Keldeo is completely unique in that it is one of those reliable threats that can also throw away any of its standard checks just with one of its standard sets. Given that there's obviously not anything else taking the meta by storm, this is why I would distance Keldeo from the "B squad" that is the rest of OU in comparison.

For the record, before the Landorus ban I would've put Keld as #1, Lando #2 and everything else #3 with the similar idea. Being able to distance them from everything else is an occasional mark of being overpowered, because if you can use them (while they're wildly popular because they're in that A-Tier+ "steady" group), use a standard set and still go to town on whatever lineup you want that mon might've gotten there by being too powerful to be checked / tanked often enough. Say using Tentacruel or Rotom-W did succeed against Specs / maybe more stuff on Offense was able to stop a cleaning from Scarf, I would be heavily opposed to suspecting it, but with what Keldeo does it deserves some thought.

If you are on the fence, ask yourself if you are ok with there being a "best" pokemon in the tier. It's an interesting thought experiment and more so if you're an OU addict; you will probably learn a lot about yourself and what you want from the game.

 

[reyscarface]

If a Keldeo comes in vs my offense team and rain is up, something in my team is going to die, please dont bring in prediction bullshit because the keldeo user can "predict" too. Now lets get into sets indepth. LO Keldeo becomes a sick stallbreaker while still being the ultimate offense destroyer. Specs Keldeo becomes even stronger against stall (did ya know specs keldeo can 2HKO chansey with specs rain hydro pump, yea). Then theres CM Keldeo, who reaches Kyurem-B levels of stallfuckupity as it will run HP Ghost, meaning your celebi and jellicent are now fucked. Scarf Keldeo in the rain becomes the ultimate offense killer capable of outspeeding AND koing everything in your typical offense team, pray your guessing is up to par. now if scarf keldeo is 2HKOin everything in an offense team, specs keldeo will be doing the same but now theyre OHKOs.

keldeo and kyurem-b are the same. theyre the ultimate antistyle mons. i say this because these 2 mons are the ones completely controlling the teambuildingin the game. scarf or specs / lo / ebelt keldeo is the ultimate offense manhandler. theres one mon that comes close to this and it would be scarf kyurem-b. those two manhandle the offense teams by themselves, except keldeo does it better. then theres the other team type, stall: specs / cm are absolute monsters for stall, and even the lo belt sets can stallbreak hard if they have the right coverage move, hell as a stall player im more scared of cm keldeo in the rain (stall usually cant afford to play sand so we go for rain) than kyurem-b, and kyurem-b is the ultimate stall breaker with any set that isnt scarf (the offense teams mother fucker)

fuckin keldeo needs to go, if landorus had to go it wasnt because of the "offensive characteristic" (miss u old men) it was because of the sheer utility it brought due to uturn, landorus would set up sweeps. and who would be the guy that fits the offensive char then if it aint landorus? its this little bastard keldeo

SUSPECT TEST DIS BISH

 

[Giaggi]

In my opinion keldeo isn't broken at all, yes it is a strong threat in the OU tier but i think that is still manageable, although a suspect test won't hurt that much.

Its counters are very common and even if most them are easily trapped by ttar you can still play smart with a double switch to a fight-tipe mon or just staying in, tank a pursuit and set up reflect or cripple him with W-o-W

Also, I have noticed that nobody had considered a physically defensive gastrodon that i'm actually trying that surprisely walls keldeo pretty well due to his immunity to water type moves, resillence to SR and that doesn't fear trappers such ttar and scizor.
With max investiment on defense gastro can take up to 3 secret swords, the strongest move he can throw to the blob besides HP gras that is really rare, being 2OHKOed after SR with a 25% chance if Keldeo has Specs or LO :

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 190-225 (44.6 - 52.81%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 165-195 (38.73 - 45.77%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 127-150 (29.81 - 35.21%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So even if they predict the gastrodon swith in it can sponge 2 hits, throw him a toxic or/and wall him with recover to force him to swich

Keldeo is one of the threat that your team should be ready to like other big threats like tyranitar, landorus-t, scizor, etc. but if this pony will tend to centralize too much the metagame around himself a ban would not be a bad idea...

 

[Spinda]

Specs Keldeo becomes even stronger against stall (did ya know specs keldeo can 2HKO chansey with specs rain hydro pump, yea)

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 43,99% - 51,95%

Damn, you're right! I think you could solve that by giving the Chansey EVs, though.

Keldeo is no doubt the best pokemon in the metagame, and if it gets suspect tested, I'm sure it'll end up being banned, because well, it's BW2. However, I do not believe it's broken.. It has too many counters and checks, all of which are amazing pokes by themselves, because it's BW and Drizzle exists, we're supposed to stack up water resists anyway.
Nothing wrong with having a best pokemon or a "king" in a metagame ( See: Tauros, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Heatran )
I'd be very disappointed to see it go, but I suppose I'm okay with it being suspected, even though realistically, I know it'll be banned then.

And if everyone's gonna keep bitching about pursuit and gothitelle support in every suspect, I'd like to see those moves and abilities gone too.

 

[vyomov]

I think Toxicroak is one of the best Keldeo counters out there simply because it ALSO beats Ttar one-on-one.

 

[Gary]

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 43,99% - 51,95%

Damn, you're right! I think you could solve that by giving the Chansey EVs, though.

Keldeo is no doubt the best pokemon in the metagame, and if it gets suspect tested, I'm sure it'll end up being banned, because well, it's BW2. However, I do not believe it's broken.. It has too many counters and checks, all of which are amazing pokes by themselves, because it's BW and Drizzle exists, we're supposed to stack up water resists anyway.
Nothing wrong with having a best pokemon or a "king" in a metagame ( See: Tauros, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Heatran )
I'd be very disappointed to see it go, but I suppose I'm okay with it being suspected, even though realistically, I know it'll be banned then.

And if everyone's gonna keep bitching about pursuit and gothitelle support in every suspect, I'd like to see those moves and abilities gone too.

That calc is seriously irrelevant because Chansey is always going to be running either max HP or Max SpD.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 282-333 (40.05 - 47.3%)

That's more like it. It still has a chance of 2HKOing after SR, but it doesn't really matter seeing as Keldeo destroys Chansey with Secret Sword anyway.

 

[Spinda]

That calc is seriously irrelevant because Chansey is always going to be running either max HP or Max SpD.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 282-333 (40.05 - 47.3%)

That's more like it. It still has a chance of 2HKOing after SR, but it doesn't really matter seeing as Keldeo destroys Chansey with Secret Sword anyway.

I know it was irrelevant, but that was exactly my point. If your Chansey is getting 2HKO'd by choice specs hydro pumps in the rain, you're not running the right spread.

 

[gsumbreon]

I always thought Keldeo was broken, then I started using it myself with T-tar in sand. It wrecks, but my opinion has changed. I've started running HP Grass instead of Elec to deal specifically with Gastrodon. It may not sweep teams by itself, but its enough to put its team over the edge.

That being said, outside of bulky waters/grass/dragons, there's not much that stops it. Hitting it with a burn or toxic does a decent job of limiting its sweeping potential, but if it has a scarf you'll have a hard time switching anything in if your opponent has decent prediction. What I've seen is that even without rain, it hits HARD. Base 129 sp. att is nothing to laugh at, and a STAB Hydro Pump coming off of that will still hurt things that are neutral to water. Sure, you may have some pokemon that resist it, but Keldeo is 1 of 6 on a team, and its unlikely that they won't have a counter in there somewhere. I think it deserves suspecting on account of how polarizing it is for teambuilding, but I don't necessarily think it deserves a ban.

 

[Chou Toshio]

If you are on the fence, ask yourself if you are ok with there being a "best" pokemon in the tier. It's an interesting thought experiment and more so if you're an OU addict; you will probably learn a lot about yourself and what you want from the game.

I actually would be perfectly fine with having a "best" Pokemon if it were balanced and not the best by a wide Margin. This isn't something like DP (pre-plat) Garchomp that has almost double the usage of #2 in the ranking. Keldeo isn't good to the point where practically every team is using it and has no reason not to use it.

Honestly, I'd have to say that in practice using Keldeo, I find it surprisingly frail, extremely predictable to most opponents, and surprisingly weak with SS. It's not that impressive unless I manage to pass it a NP or keep rain up with all its checks/counters gone. Fuck, I should EXPECT amazing performance if I manage to make such conditions for it.

The fact that only its Water-type STAB is truly scary makes it a very limited offensive threat imo.

I guess you could call it the "best" Pokemon right now-- and it wouldn't be completely wrong. But I don't think it's even as good as BW1 Terrakion (read: pre Lando-T).


All that said, I'd agree with people that suspect testing it is a worthy endeavor.

 

[Pocket]

I agree with Chou Toshio - simply being the best isn't a good reason to test a Pokemon. Granted, yee offered more than this statement to reinforce his stance, also explaining how Keldeo can overcome its conventional checks without much effort. However, tiering is not merely, "testing the next best thing," which would result in a never-ending cycle of suspect tests. Simply nitpicking here, but it's one of those arguments that needs to be avoided.

 

[MikeDawg]

I agree with Chou Toshio - simply being the best isn't a good reason to test a Pokemon. Granted, yee offered more than this statement to reinforce his stance, also explaining how Keldeo can overcome its conventional checks without much effort. However, tiering is not merely, "testing the next best thing," which would result in a never-ending cycle of suspect tests. Simply nitpicking here, but it's one of those arguments that needs to be avoided.

I definitely agree with you on not just testing the next best thing constantly.

But I feel like the situation is different when comparing ou to something like uu where, according to koko and uu players and the like, everything is good and stable. Then it would just be pointless to test more... Why fix what isn't broken?

But for ou where everything is still kind of janky, testing the next best thing is really our only recourse since here really is no clear cut fix or imbalance.

 

[Chou Toshio]

But I feel like the situation is different when comparing ou to something like uu where, according to koko and uu players and the like, everything is good and stable.

I personally have great reservations about assuming tiers like UU and Ubers are stable "just because their players call them stable." It's always easier to garner greater loyalty among your players when in a smaller, non-main tier. UU and Uber players choose to be in their alternative tier because they want to be there. Do you honestly believe that UU or Ubers would have the same perception of "balance" if they had OU's player base, and were the main tiers under scrutiny?

To give you an example, my 1st Survey found DPPt to be the most popular OU by a wide margin. Even a majority of ADV OU players called DPP the best OU. So I don't think it's up for debate that DPPt is largely considered the best OU by Smogon's player base.

That said, when we WERE playing DPP OU as our flagship metagame-- do you really think people were satisfied with it?

People ALWAYS had a problem with DPP OU-- that it wasn't balanced, that it wasn't fun. Salamence was one of the most divisive tiering decisions, with players on both sides bitching that it being there or not being there would make or break the meta for them. The point is, that people didn't bitch any less about DPP OU back then than BW players do right now-- but now in hindsight, everyone loves DPPt.

When you are the flagship metagame under everyone's scrutiny, there is no such thing as "good and stable" (read: no one bitching about tiering).

 

[MikeDawg]

I personally have great reserves about assuming tiers like UU and Ubers are stable "just because their players call them stable." It's always easier to garner greater loyalty among your players when in a smaller, non-main tier. UU and Uber players choose to be in their alternative tier because they want to be there. Do you honestly believe that UU or Ubers would have the same perception of "balance" if they had OU's player base, and were the main tiers under scrutiny?

To give you an example, my 1st Survey found DPPt to be the most popular OU by a wide margin. Even a majority of ADV OU players called DPP the best OU. So I don't think it's up for debate that DPPt is largely considered the best OU by Smogon's player base.

That said, when we WERE playing DPP OU as our flagship metagame-- do you really think people were satisfied it?

People ALWAYS had a problem with DPP OU-- that it wasn't balanced, that it wasn't fun. Salamence was one of the most divisive tiering decisions, with players on both sides bitching that it being there or not being there would make or break the meta for them. The point is, that people didn't bitch any less about DPP OU back then than BW players do right now-- but now in hindsight, everyone loves DPPt.

When you are the flagship metagame under everyone's scrutiny, there is no such thing as "good and stable" (read: no one bitching about tiering).

I understand. BW2 is my first metagame experience, so I had just assumed the incessant complaining was somewhat unique.