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OU Kingdra
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
I thought that the Focus Energy set was deemed to be bad; why is it listed on the set now?
Because it's good.
I was referring to this post. What changed?
my take:
Rain Sweeper
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name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Outrage / Rain Dance
move 4: Waterfall / Surf / Ice Beam
item: Life Orb
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
nature: Rash / Modest
quite plainly not all rain kingdra need to be mixed; kingdra with rd would probably run another special move. the flat mixed set, pump / draco / outrage / waterfall with a rash nature, is first. with the rain dance slash, you have surf / ice beam as options, and a modest nature.
i think the q is: do we want to tie other kingdra. i really think that'd be a good idea; say it's your rain team vs. another rain team, and you're down to two kingdras...that's not a scenario i'd like to lose, guaranteed. that's up to you guys, though, so i left the presented spread.
Rain Sweeper
########
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Outrage / Rain Dance
move 4: Waterfall / Surf / Ice Beam
item: Life Orb
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
nature: Rash / Modest
quite plainly not all rain kingdra need to be mixed; kingdra with rd would probably run another special move. the flat mixed set, pump / draco / outrage / waterfall with a rash nature, is first. with the rain dance slash, you have surf / ice beam as options, and a modest nature.
i think the q is: do we want to tie other kingdra. i really think that'd be a good idea; say it's your rain team vs. another rain team, and you're down to two kingdras...that's not a scenario i'd like to lose, guaranteed. that's up to you guys, though, so i left the presented spread.
sorry to double post, but it won't tag if i edit it in -- Unowninator, I managed to convince the analysis writer that it worked, and Fuzznip reconsidered his opinion
Set looks great Jukain, well done with the slashes. I don't think I'll ever board the hydro pump train, but I am also physically unable to gamble at a casino so I guess I just don't like taking risks ;)
Kingdra is not a commonly used pokemon, so I'm unsure about maxing speed on the rain dance special set. On one hand, this gives the special set a niche in out running the uncommon scarf latios and tieing other Kingdra (they are used about the same amount actually). I guess you also outrun Deoxys-S assuming it isn't the hazard set, and has psycho boost to hit you with. And also +2 dragonite and Gyarados.
On the other hand if you are building a team in such a way that Kingdra may need to use rain dance, you are likely to appreciate the extra bulk. Not to mention the other normal sweeps when the extra bulk will save you.
Hopefully mentioning the relevant threats you out speed helps QC to make a decision. It's a toss-up in my opinion but I'll suggest HP by a nose, since I'd guess it'll matter more often.
Little question here: How the hell is CritDra even remotely viable in OU? It's too fucking slow, it beats stall and fails vs anything else. Fixing its speed with Agility/Rain Dance may sound cool but it's really not bulky enough to allow itself two turns of setup tbh. Please justify this, I'd like to know what makes it good enough to be anything more than a mention in OO.
If it's too slow, then why not run Timid?
By that logic, SD Excadrill would be crap because it's 'too slow'. Kingdra isn't exactly frail -- it can take a non-ridiculous hit or two, including from Greninja, Talonflame, and Thundurus, three of the biggest fast threats in the metagame. It can also punish HO teams (which are the only teams it really has that much trouble against) with hits on the switch instead of a Focus Energy. Critdra is never dead weight, and can punch massive holes in the bulky checks to a myriad of its teammates with the aid of consistent crits. It's the only Dragon that can truly spam Draco Meteor, which is awesome. It's not forced out after a Draco Meteor thanks to the crit ignoring its Special Attack drop.
I don't think a Timid nature is worth it because the only thing Kingdra would outrun is like neutral-natured Kyurem-B, and there are too many positive-natured ones for this to be a viable strategy. You'd outspeed Adamant Excadrill, but they're all Jolly, and a bunch of them are Scarf anyways. You don't outrun Adamant Megazard X -- if you did, I would run a Timid nature in a heartbeat. However, because it doesn't, there is literally no reason to run Timid on Critdra.
Just a little nitpick: Both sets ought to run 4 Defense EVs so that Genesect gets a Special Attack boost. This is mainly relevant for the CB set, which Critdra doesn't want to take a U-turn from, and the rain sweeper is susceptible to being revenge killed by its +1 Attack Extreme Speed. This minor EV change means you fare better against CB Genesect, which is massive in this metagame.
I don't think a Timid nature is worth it because the only thing Kingdra would outrun is like neutral-natured Kyurem-B, and there are too many positive-natured ones for this to be a viable strategy. You'd outspeed Adamant Excadrill, but they're all Jolly, and a bunch of them are Scarf anyways. You don't outrun Adamant Megazard X -- if you did, I would run a Timid nature in a heartbeat. However, because it doesn't, there is literally no reason to run Timid on Critdra.
Just a little nitpick: Both sets ought to run 4 Defense EVs so that Genesect gets a Special Attack boost. This is mainly relevant for the CB set, which Critdra doesn't want to take a U-turn from, and the rain sweeper is susceptible to being revenge killed by its +1 Attack Extreme Speed. This minor EV change means you fare better against CB Genesect, which is massive in this metagame.
Like any semi-fast mon that can't boost speed reliably (or in this case, can't find room in its moveset) Critdra LOVES Sticky Web support. It can set-up and spam Dracos much more reliably.
Sylveon is a decent counter if it's kept healthy. Calcs are done with Sylveon's cleric set.
Against the Rain Sweeper set:
76 Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon in Rain: 127-150 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Against Critdra:
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon on a critical hit: 285-337 (72.7 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile:
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 288-338 (98.9 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Couldn't really find anything that hard counters Kingdra, though—no Pokemon seems to wall both variants of Kingdra.
Ah, thanks a lot CC. There's one. Isn't Sylveon slower than CritDra though? So it doesn't really have the chance to attack if it switches in on a crit Hydro Pump.
It switches in on the Focus Energy.
Ah, of course. Thank you. Sylveon has been included in the checks and counters section.
I'm opposed to this addition. Keep in mind that a super effective Flash Cannon/Iron Head is actually weaker than a STAB Hydro Pump, so it's not worth giving up additional coverage or increased speed.
You forgot life orb in your calculation. Here are the correct calculations.
80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon in Rain: 165-195 (42 - 49.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon in Rain: 203-239 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And for Calm:
80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon in Rain: 250-294 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 153-181 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 187-222 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It's not a match up sylveon can win on the switch if you are able to scout its set. If you don't scout it's set until hitting it with Kingdra it works if the Kingdra user uses the "wrong move". For what it's worth more are calm according to the December usage statistics, however this means little as far as which set is more viable in my opinion.
I feel like Chansey is a pretty hard counter to both sets. While you can run outrage on critdra, I can't imagine going with it over HP Grass or HP Fire. Considering outrage is not a slashed move anymore you could list it as a counter.
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