OU Kingdra

Yeah, I was asleep, but basically the only thing you need to hit with that slot is Azumarill, so hitting Whimsicott is just a bonus, considering it has higher usage than Empoleon. Whimsicott troubles rain teams too actually, as it resists the stabs of Kingdra and Ludicolo and Seismitoad, leaving you with Kabutops Stone Edge which I doubt KOes a physically defensive spread, not that it matters considering Whimsicott just spreads paralysis, making rain difficult to abuse. Most rain teams don't run Tornadus-T anyway now, but even then it wouldn't like to be paralyzed. It's definitely relevant enough to mention when Empoleon is easily taken down by Seismitoad / Kabutops with Low Kick / any Thunder abuser.
 

watashi

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World Defender
instead of arguing over some situational hidden power, why not just use agility in the last slot? it's nearly impossible to sweep with only a focus energy boost as pretty much every team will have something faster that can kill kingdra, but it has a good chance of running through offense if you can grab both agility and focus energy, which is not hard to do with kingdra's bulk and typing
 
instead of arguing over some situational hidden power, why not just use agility in the last slot? it's nearly impossible to sweep with only a focus energy boost as pretty much every team will have something faster that can kill kingdra, but it has a good chance of running through offense if you can grab both agility and focus energy, which is not hard to do with kingdra's bulk and typing
this has been debated so many times in both this thread and the qc conversation, as well as irc. basically the consensus is that it /is/ hard to get both boosts against offensive teams; you can Focus Energy while they switch into latios or something (you can tell if its critdra by whether its with a rain setter or not, it wont attack straight up), but they'll just ko you. it comes down really to what are the chances you'll run into ferrothorn / azumarill (whimsicott is really just a side mention) in high level play (ie: a lot), or whether you'll obtain the chance to use both boosts against offense (ie: not a lot).
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
You can set up Focus Energy on most unboosted or choice locked water types, or choice locked fire moves. Think manaphy, rotom, keldeo, talonflame. If you force the opp's poke out its a decently common scenario they'll go to something that cant OHKO kingdra. Latios isnt exactly a choice Kingdra Switch in unless you predict a pump. It's definitely possible to set up both boosts against offense but you're definitely going to take a shitload of damage doing it and if the opp has prio, then, its pretty hard to run through anything.

Granted its probably more useful than HP posion
 
its more useful than hp poison if you think its for whimsicott. if you understand that 99% of the time you hit azumarill then its much more valuable as it pretty much walls even after focus energy. like i said, this has been discussed a lot, but rn im trying to look for replays against offense of both boosts being setup. im not finding any.
 

watashi

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252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Hidden Power Poison vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill on a critical hit: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill on a critical hit: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is the 30% extra damage on a single target really that useful compared to the ability to sweep teams?

also if you expect them to switch in something such as latios on focus energy and ruin your set up then you can just agility, kill them with meteor, and set up focus energy after
 
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FLCL your arguments are valid, actual double setup opportunites are difficult in practice but with something like kingdra which threatens its only weakness with its stab, I guess its a possible scenario. ferrothorn is still a huge bitch though, so how do you feel about the slashing being hp fire / agility?
 
I'm not allowing Critdra to go on-site. I don't think I have to explain how awful it is in practice. And mentioning Hidden Power Poison of all things is just awful. Please remove them.
First it's bad, then good, then bad again. What's up with all the mind changes?

And for people who <I>really</I> want a Poison attack, you may as well just give it Clear Smog. At least that move is worth using (not on Kingdra though).
 

AccidentalGreed

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I'm not allowing Critdra to go on-site. I don't think I have to explain how awful it is in practice. And mentioning Hidden Power Poison of all things is just awful. Please remove them.
You do.
>
!usage1760 Kingdra, items
22:52 TIBot: Scope Lens 51.046% | Life Orb 13.850% | Lum Berry 11.421% | Leftovers 10.065% | Choice Specs 4.793% | Chesto Berry 2.316% | Razor Claw 1.990% | Other 4.518%
Under definition, it's a setup sweeper, and it's relevant in higher ladder play. Even moreso than lower ladder play, as a matter of fact. (Scope Lens 44.267%)

Agility is also a better option than the Hidden Powers listed. If you may or may not recall, SPL players gave some recommendation on it, rather than bad Hidden Powers we all seem fixated on.

I'm impartial on rejecting it, but this seems rather hasty. Just give it a few months, and we can update it by then, but I see no rush in rejecting this particular thing.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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You do.

Under definition, it's a setup sweeper, and it's relevant in higher ladder play. Even moreso than lower ladder play, as a matter of fact. (Scope Lens 44.267%)

Agility is also a better option than the Hidden Powers listed. If you may or may not recall, SPL players gave some recommendation on it, rather than bad Hidden Powers we all seem fixated on.

I'm impartial on rejecting it, but this seems rather hasty. Just give it a few months, and we can update it by then, but I see no rush in rejecting this particular thing.
Interesting because I get a very different result when looking at the March stats:
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-03/moveset/ou-1760.0.txt

And Ill just copy paste Kingdra here:
Kingdra | +----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 129382 |
| Avg. weight: 0.00827251791008
| +----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Swift Swim 65.407% |
| Sniper 34.267% |
| Damp 0.326%
| +----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Choice Specs 33.465% |
| Scope Lens 26.664% |
| Life Orb 18.310% |
| Leftovers 5.164% |
| Razor Claw 4.247% |
| Lum Berry 2.862% |
| Chesto Berry 2.003% |
| Damp Rock 0.807% |
| Assault Vest 0.651% |
| Dragon Fang 0.632% |
| Mystic Water 0.602% |
| Other 4.593%
| +----------------------------------------+ | Spreads | | Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 20.224% | | Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 10.195% | | Modest:28/0/0/252/0/228 6.463% | | Modest:252/0/0/252/0/4 5.587% | | Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 5.276% | | Modest:68/0/0/252/0/188 4.756% | | Other 47.498%
| +----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Draco Meteor 76.869% |
| Hydro Pump 46.760% |
| Dragon Pulse 41.781% |
| Surf 41.457% |
| Ice Beam 36.227% |
| Focus Energy 31.103% |
| Scald 22.022% |
| Waterfall 17.398% |
| Flash Cannon 13.422% |
| Rain Dance 13.294% |
| Outrage 13.146% |
| Dragon Dance 11.787% |
| Agility 5.055% | |
Hidden Power Fire 4.847% |
| Substitute 4.212% |
| Iron Head 2.605% |
| Other 18.016%
| +----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Politoed +48.386% |
| Kabutops +27.752% |
| Deoxys-Speed +12.523% |
| Scizor +12.280% |
| Tornadus-Therian +6.705% |
| Kyurem-Black +4.933% |
| Ferrothorn +2.639% |
| Thundurus-Therian +2.440% |
| Manectric +2.365% |
| Ludicolo +1.459% |
| Galvantula +1.195% |
| Tornadus +1.190%


Notice the following:

- 2/3 times Swift Swim is still used. Sniper barely breaks 31%
- Choice Specs is the most common item followed by Scope Lens.
- Focus Energy is the 6th move used totalling at about 31%. Agility is ranked even lower at 5%!
- Also notice that all of Kingdra's teammates involve Rain Dance strategies.

Now I admit the ladder is not perfect; however, it appears that the tendency to use Kingdra barely relies on the Critdra. And I actually wonder its W/L ratio too for comparison sake.

Even if for some bloody hell reason the set stays - get rid of HP Poison. FFS HP Electric accomplishes the same fucking thing but at least it can hit Empoleon!
 

Colonel M

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Yeah, and the reason HP Poison is there is because Whimsicott has more usage than Empoleon, this is really nitpicking at the lowest level. Whimsicott or Empoleon, which is more important?
Empoleon.

Whimiscott suicides anyway. That is the only set it has in the analysis.
 

Don Honchkrorleone

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I agree with Colonel_M that CritDra should not get an analysis. Not only by the fact that Kingdra shouldn't really be used outside rain but the main argument for keeping it is that it does wonders against slower teams. You know what also do wonders against slower teams? SD Diggersby, CM Landorus-I, most Mega Mawile, and the list on. All of them have reasons to use more than to beat slower teams because they can deal with other playstyles as well, so there isn't really a reason for using CritDra when there are so many better things available. Besides, how the heck can Kingdra set up without dying/being severely hampered, since its bulk is kinda subpar for OU's standard. It needs so much support to be effective it's not even worth it. Besides, if your opponent's team is not theone CritDra is supposed to deal, then it'll be a dead weight.

tl;dr: CritDra sucks, it's outclassed by tons of things on what it's supposed to do and struggles if opposite team is not slower. I support Colonel_M's decision of removing it.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
another one of Critdra's serious flaws is its inability to get past chansey, which really makes it a subpar wallbreaker
 
Well, you can run Outrage on it, but yeah there are some difficulties. I'm going to talk on IRC later today, and it's possible that I'll remove it, but it's only Don's concerns that are actually relevant, Colonel_M never actually said why it should be gone, which is a bit ridiculous for someone trying to get a point across. AG's points are quite relevant too, and actually existent, so I'm going to discuss this further and then make a decision. Any bandwagoning posts or posts without any justification will be ignored.
 

Jukain

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Critdra is definitely viable. It hits hard as shit after Focus Energy and w/ Agility you can get Speed too. Especially effective vs slower teams. The fact that good players have also talked about it/made suggestions lends me to believe it is viable.

List of reminders for TRC (he told me to post):

- 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe for Specs
- Outrage before RD on the first set
- Agility / HP Fire for Critdra

2 more suggestions:

-Hydro power is so good especially unboosted for Critdra. Should probably be slashed alone, will provide calcs if needed but I think this is rather straightforward

-Critdra can run a bulkier spread, tying with Nite is really all you miss and having the bulk to secure boosts and tank priority is very helpful. 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe seems fine
 

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