Pokémon Klefki

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Also does the showdown calc work properly for foul play? Because it says it does 47-55% damage to unboosted normal absol. I have to be doing something wrong.
 
I've seen Klefki leads more often than I should have then, or maybe I'm missing something. The free Swords Dance was just an example of a situation that could happen if the opponent doesn't expect an Absol lead (as has been discussed in the Absol thread: Absol serves a better clean-up Pokemon/baton pass recipient)

Absol's lackluster special attack is remedied by the fact that it actually gets a base 115 Special Attack when it becomes Mega (along with 150 Attack and 115 Speed), so that's why I brought up Fire Blast, because mixed Mega Absol sets are pretty common, and all of them like to have something to smack Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Forretress
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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I cant decide on a support klefki move set. especially with imprison on it.
Spikes, dual screens, imprison, t wave.
I think we have a case of 4 moveslot syndrome.
I plan to use it as a anti-support imprison lead if I see another support lead, or just priority dual screens with the help of focus sash.
Ugh. What do you guys think. I'm thinking about dropping t-wave. priority imprison is great for stopping other support leads.
Klefki is definitely a Pokemon with 4MSS. Between Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, Spikes, Imprison and Foul Play (I consider this support since it can deal with things like Aegislash without resorting to Earthquake and stuff), Klefki has a lot of things it wants to be doing all at once but can't, meaning either its teammates have to pick up the slack or learn to deal without it.
Even SwagPlay sets would really like Spikes, Torment or the aforementioned Fairy move (for Absol) to maximize its disruptive potential, because if it can then it has legitimate merit as opposed to simply being 'flip to win' since it now has a goal(s) rather than just sitting there hoping for the opponent to trip up.

One of the similiar issues I find with SwagKey with SwagPard is that, in order to fully disrupt an opponent, SwagKey is encouraged to stay in on Pokemon it shouldn't really have any business taking on, especially Ground-types (What do you do here? If you Swagger they can wreck you with Ground moves, if you switch out you will have accomplished less than your standard SupportKey). Even if you have the protection of a Substitute, the possibility of an early snap out can not only put Klefki, but the whole team at risk. While less stuff resists Dark and there are less physical walls running about in OU than in NU (ugh Alomo and Tangela), more stuff becomes immune to Thunder Wave, meaning if they switch out of confusion they can start fresh again and try to take out Klefki without suffering a boosted Foul Play.
Obviously having a mega evolved absol early on is great against klefki, especially if it was freeish (like forcing a switch) because klefki has to be worried about EVERYTHING. But I think even espeon is better in the general countering of klefki.
I think this speaks for itself: the possibility of backfiring is very real for Klefki against most of the opponents it faces (even Skarmory can start breaking Subs with +2 STAB), while SupportKey does not really have to worry unduly about its opponent and set the playing field so that your real sweepers can start doing work. SwagKey can theoretically do this, but does so less reliably than SupportKey who doesn't need other Pokemon to set Spikes for it. I mean really, Klefki shouldn't be the one needing support to better do its job (which has a notorious hit-or-miss rate), it should be the one to support others.

Also does the showdown calc work properly for foul play? Because it says it does 47-55% damage to unboosted normal absol. I have to be doing something wrong.
394 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 128-151 (47.23 - 55.71%) -- 76.56% chance to 2HKO
I don't see what's wrong here.

Also people, if you really hate SwagKey that much, use Lum Berry Infiltrator Chandelure, however you could try a Scarf on it instead if you want it for more utility outside of destroying SwagKeys.
 
394 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 128-151 (47.23 - 55.71%) -- 76.56% chance to 2HKO
I don't see what's wrong here.

Also people, if you really hate SwagKey that much, use Lum Berry Infiltrator Chandelure, however you could try a Scarf on it instead if you want it for more utility outside of destroying SwagKeys.
Absol the glass cannon lmao. Also, how well does Klefki take a Fire Blast from an uninvested Megal Absol? (or with 4 points into special attack if it makes any difference). I'm wondering how much special attack EVs Absol would need to run to hopefully 1KO Klefki, if can even do that.

Mega Absol base special attack: 115
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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Absol the glass cannon lmao. Also, how well does Klefki take a Fire Blast from an uninvested Megal Absol? (or with 4 points into special attack if it makes any difference). I'm wondering how much special attack EVs Absol would need to run to hopefully 1KO Klefki, if can even do that.

Mega Absol base special attack: 115
4 SpA (115 Base SpA) Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 154-182 (48.42 - 57.23%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers

438 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 142-168 (52.39 - 61.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah it really isn't looking too good. All Klefki has to do is set up Light Screen, and Foul Play either for the 2HKO while Mega-Absol fails to KO back (since Klefki is like the only Pokemon to resist Dark + Fairy) or OHKO +2 Mega-Absol.

There is a reason why I kept listing Grounds and Electrics as the primary checks (still can't top Lum Infiltrator Chandelure~)

Very ironically...
167 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Xatu: 92-110 (27.62 - 33.03%) -- possible 4HKO with Leftovers
That's right, the Pokemon weak to Dark takes Foul Play loads better than the one that resists Dark. Xatu can stall against Foul Play with Roost and beat down Klefki with Night Shade or Heat Wave after PokeBank release.
 
I think this speaks for itself: the possibility of backfiring is very real for Klefki against most of the opponents it faces (even Skarmory can start breaking Subs with +2 STAB), while SupportKey does not really have to worry unduly about its opponent and set the playing field so that your real sweepers can start doing work. SwagKey can theoretically do this, but does so less reliably than SupportKey who doesn't need other Pokemon to set Spikes for it. I mean really, Klefki shouldn't be the one needing support to better do its job (which has a notorious hit-or-miss rate), it should be the one to support others.
You do realize that was for klefki in general? He can never feel safe laying spikes or thunder waving with a magic bouncer in play, this isn't a problem exclusive to swagkey at all.

And possibility of backfiring isn't an argument for invalidity, lack of consistency is.

And skarmory being able to break subs is a moot point because they'd be better off setting up on klefki, roosting off the damage, then whirlwinding it from behind it's sub when they get the chance since they can't reliably kill it anyway, assuming the klefki doesn't switch out on the skarmory because a parafused skarmory is just asking to be set up on. Skarmory will consistently be taking more damage than klefki if it tries to brave bird kill it.
 
4 SpA (115 Base SpA) Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 154-182 (48.42 - 57.23%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers

438 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 142-168 (52.39 - 61.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah it really isn't looking too good. All Klefki has to do is set up Light Screen, and Foul Play either for the 2HKO while Mega-Absol fails to KO back (since Klefki is like the only Pokemon to resist Dark + Fairy) or OHKO +2 Mega-Absol.

There is a reason why I kept listing Grounds and Electrics as the primary checks (still can't top Lum Infiltrator Chandelure~)

Very ironically...

That's right, the Pokemon weak to Dark takes Foul Play loads better than the one that resists Dark. Xatu can stall against Foul Play with Roost and beat down Klefki with Night Shade or Heat Wave after PokeBank release.
Welp, there's another Pokemon Mega Absol can't take advantage of Magic Bounce with reliably then. Foul Play is so good... damn. Absol's defenses are crap too
 
If its defenses improved with the Mega, it would, but they focused on getting it 150 Attack/115 Special Attack/115 Speed while retaining regular Absol's defenses. Justified is nice, but it won't help give that extra edge to Fire Blast, sadly :/ (not to mention, random misses from Fire Blast's nerf)

I think perhaps with more investment in Special Attack, Mega Absol might be able to do something more serious to Klefki (and if Mega Absol ran Snatch), but I can only see that happening once the tiers get settled, and if Klefki became common enough in whatever tier it ended up being in. Still, Mega Absol wants those EVS badly into Attack and Speed, as it's very fragile.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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And possibility of backfiring isn't an argument for invalidity, lack of consistency is.
In conclusion, I'm not trying to say SwagKey is unviable, just more inconsistent.
I have already claimed that I do not think SwagKey is unviable, just inconsistent, because when that inconsistency comes with a side dish of +2 sweeper in your face, it's not the prettiest of scenarios to find yourself in.

You do realize that was for klefki in general? He can never feel safe laying spikes or thunder waving with a magic bouncer in play, this isn't a problem exclusive to swagkey at all.
I've never said anything about Klefki not worrying about Magic Bouncers (bar maybe Absol who gets 2HKOed/OHKOed by Foul Play lol). But comparing to what both the Keys can do: 1) both Keys switch in on helpless opponents. 2) SupportKey lays down Spikes while SwagKey Subs (I am honestly considering Sub on SupportKey as well to avoid stuff like Leech Seed and Will-O-Wisp) while the opponent switches to a Ground-type/Electric-type/something that can threaten Klefki in general. 3) SupportKey gets the hell out of dodge while SwagKey tries to play rope-a-dope with its opponent. Can you see the difference here? SupportKey has already done part of its job and is leaving the rest to its teammates. SwagKey on the other hand is more or less forced to stay in if it does not want its efforts to be wasted, because unlike Spikes confusion can be rid off unconsciously. If the opponent does break through confusion, you are either forced to Sub until it finally hits itself (it may not D:) or have to deal with the +2 threat via teammates, while effectively having done nothing so far but waste your health & given the opponent sweeper a +2 boost. This level of uncertainty can limit what SwagKey can do in a match compared to what SupportKey can do in almost any match with much more consistency.
 
Swagkey doesn't need to stay in really unless it has a sub up, if you know they have something that can't be twaved, just swag it then get out.

And again, you're assuming they still have the counter to it, that for some reason someone felt it was a good idea to throw swagkey out anyway. Essentially you're just assuming misplaying and hard counters and claiming he's inconsistent due to them.

Like why are you throwing out klefki when they can still counter it? Why aren't you waiting until their options die down and you can more easily predict their next move so that when you know they'll switch to avoid the twave, you swag or sub then switch out like a regular klefki would. Support klefki still has trouble setting up on ground types too, even with reflect so a lot of these inconsistencies you bring up effect klefki in general, and for some reason you assume the ability to play around them applies only to your personal favorite kind of klefki.

Now, forgive me if I presume too much, but it really feels like you're just personally biased against swagkey with these serious lapses in logic, and while admittedly it's my fault for being unable to concisely disprove them(or rather too tired to), I really feel that the idea to drop the comparisons is something i should've taken more seriously when it was suggested, because this is honestly EXACTLY like the consistency arguments against paraflinch togekiss and jirachi before their time. (which never went anywhere until actual usage statistics came out)

So, in closing: Obviously swagkey is less consistent than supportkey by way of direct objectives(this was never actually denied yet misunderstood as such), as Swagkey's takes far more dedication, but Swagkey's objective is both FAR more lucrative and still quite consistent, so that the claim that he's inconsistent overall, in that he's not going to win you more battles than supportkey on average, is faulty. Not that it is irrefutably better than supportkey, just that consistency isn't the defining factor between them, it's what your team actually needs and which would bring more overall more consistency to your win ratio, which is entirely unknown.
 
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Swagkey doesn't need to stay in really unless it has a sub up, if you know they have something that can't be twaved, just swag it then get out.
Using Swagger without a Sub is suicide-50% of the time you get damaged heavily. So you end up setting up a Sub first...

And again, you're assuming they still have the counter to it, that for some reason someone felt it was a good idea to throw swagkey out anyway. Essentially you're just assuming misplaying and hard counters and claiming he's inconsistent due to them.

Like why are you throwing out klefki when they can still counter it? Why aren't you waiting until their options die down and you can more easily predict their next move so that when you know they'll switch to avoid the twave, you swag or sub then switch out like a regular klefki would. Support klefki still has trouble setting up on ground types too, even with reflect so a lot of these inconsistencies you bring up effect klefki in general, and for some reason you assume the ability to play around them applies only to your personal favorite kind of klefki.
There are so many things that beat SwagKey, and if a team has multiple your chances of haxxing past all of them is significantly reduced. If your opponent has a Ground/Electric type or a slow physical attacker that doesn't care about Thunder Wave and has a reasonably strong attack against Klefki, that could potentially beat SwagKey. In this case you have to either save SwagKey until later (which might be 3/4 of the match gone before you can use SwagKey, you never know), or you have to Sub before trying to Swag...

Support Klefki's task is to set up Spikes, maybe set up Dual Screens, and possibly cripple something with Thunder Wave. The first is only beaten by Magic Bouncers, faster Prankster Taunts, and stuff with Defog/Rapid Spin. The second is beaten by Prankster Taunt and Infiltrator. The third is beaten by Ground and Electric sweepers, and Magic Bouncers.

Of those, Magic Bouncers hurt SwagKey as much as SupportKey. SwagKey is ruined even harder by Taunt as it need not be Prankster to shut it down. SwagKey is still beaten by Infiltrator users with powerful attacks, as well as Ground and Electric attackers. Also, SwagKey can be hurt by bad luck (which is kind of obvious given how luck-dependent it is), and if you get unlucky with SwagKey, you have just lost a mon and are down 5-6.

Now, forgive me if I presume too much, but it really feels like you're just personally biased against swagkey with these serious lapses in logic, and while admittedly it's my fault for being unable to concisely disprove them, I really feel that the idea to drop the comparisons is something i should've taken more seriously when it was suggested, because this is honestly EXACTLY like the consistency arguments against paraflinch togekiss and jirachi before their time. (which never went anywhere until actual usage statistics came out)
Jirachi, at least by very-high level ladder players, is very seldom seen using ParaFlinch. It has other options like Calm Mind, Choice Scarf, Shuca Berry Garchomp lure, etc. Togekiss can function well as a defensive mon without Paraflinch, although Paraflinch is useful anyways since it needs STAB Air Slash and Thunder Wave is a great move on Kiss. Similarly, Klefki has another option in SupportKey.

SwagKey is a viable set, as are other luck-based sets like ParaFlinch Jirachi. However, it's not made for consistent play since it's too luck-based.
 
I always thought this was a humorous set.

Torment Key
ability: Prankster
item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
nature: Calm
~ Torment
~ Protect
~ Substitute
~ Foul Play

This thing is ridiculously annoying. Even though its defenses are average at best, its Steel/Fairy typing grants it with just two weaknesses alongside a fantastic nine resistances and two immunities. This means that not a lot of things carry more than one move than can hit it hard, and Torment takes full advantage of it alongside Protect and priority Substitute to stall and hit things when necessary. The set is designed to set up a Substitute intact, then fire off a Foul Play from behind it to discourage hard-hitting switch-ins or to chip away at the opponent. Hazard support is very welcome, as Toxic Spikes can actually allow this thing to sit on things and laugh as their health slowly drains away. Stealth Rock and Spikes support also help because of the switches Klefki causes in trying to gain initiative on it. Teammates like Omastar, Cloyster, and Greninja can all set up hazards and hit potential Flying-type Defog users with an Ice-type attack.

Klefki SERIOUSLY struggles with 4MSS... I realize after trying out this set that it REALLY wants Toxic and Spikes at the very least :(
 
hi guys I didn't bother reading thru the whole thread or anything just comin here to say that anyone who runs swagkey is a fuckin loser k thx bai
I went as far as making a thread ab how lame this thing is. Ppl lead this thing, swagger and pray to god it hurts itself in confusion. Then they either t-wave or go straight to hiding behind a sub for protection. Everytime i verse this thing people have the best luck. Why is it that I hurt myself in my confusion what seems like everytime (when its 50% chance), but my 70% accurate focus blast misses about half the time. This pokemon is stupid and depends on luck to succeed with the sets I've been seeing.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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Somehow I completely forgot about this one Pokemon that would likely have few issues disposing of Klefki properly.

Magnezone.
 
Good point, except Swagger/Foul Play is annoying, even for Magnezone, who has no reliable healing other than Leftovers. How much would Hidden Power Fire do to Klefki, or would Magnezone be better off with Thunderbolt?

Also, I'm sure this has been mentioned, but Lum Berry Garchomp lead would be decent too, as he can ignore Thunder Wave and smack Klefki with Earthquake. If Klefki Swaggers Garchomp for whatever reason, Lum Berry will cure it and essentially give Garchomp +2 Attack to start out the game with.
 
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Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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STAB Thunderbolt = 135 BP, SE Hidden Power Fire = 120 BP.

252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 127-151 (39.93 - 47.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 130 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 68-80 (20.98 - 24.69%) -- possible 6HKO <-This takes into account Steel's neutrality to Dark as opposed to resistance.

The Magnezone used here has 0 Attack IVs, and only has 172 HP EVs as 84 EVs were used in Speed to outspeed 0 Spe Scizor (to grant it more utility outside of killing Keys). Thunderbolt may not 2HKO Klefki, but it will take ages for Klefki to beat Magnezone without a horrendous amount of luck. Klefki can stall for longer with Substitute, but if Magnezone itself gets a Substitute while not at +4, SwagKey is now at serious risk of being stomped hard as +2 Foul Play fails to break the Sub, meaning Magnezone has ample time to beat SwagKey while avoiding Swagger. The moment Klefki is about to break the Substitute, simply use Substitute again. This works because Klefki is faster than Magnezone: if Klefki were slower and breaks the Sub with Foul Play, Magnezone won't get a chance to Sub up before another Swagger, and it won't be able to block SwagPlay anymore.

Choice Specs Magnzone may be a bit reliant on Lady Luck due to its lack of Substitute, but it can 2HKO SwagKey and prevents its escape while still taking not that much from Foul Play.
 
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After seeing how badly Mega Absol takes those Foul Plays, Magnezone is looking god-like in comparison lol. Thank you again for the calcs too (:

Keep in mind that Klefki can also Light Screen and make it even more frustrating for Magnezone, even with Choice Specs. If it really comes to a stall war, a more gimmicky option to consider with Magnezone is Charge Beam, as he'll be gaining boosts to his Special Attack while Light Screen/Special Defense investment/Substitutes will start to become obsolete for Klefki. Though you're probably right; Choice Specs would be the faster way... was just hoping to retain some Lefties on Magnezone, but hey, it's satifying to take down the Key.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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After seeing how badly Mega Absol takes those Foul Plays, Magnezone is looking god-like in comparison lol. Thank you again for the calcs too (:

Keep in mind that Klefki can also Light Screen and make it even more frustrating for Magnezone, even with Choice Specs. If it really comes to a stall war, a more gimmicky option to consider with Magnezone is Charge Beam, as he'll be gaining boosts to his Special Attack while Light Screen/Special Defense investment/Substitutes will start to become obsolete for Klefki. Though you're probably right; Choice Specs would be the faster way... was just hoping to retain some Lefties on Magnezone, but hey, it's satifying to take down the Key.
SwagKey doesn't have room for Light Screen, but Dual Screens can lay down all 3 layers of Spikes on non-Specs Magnezone. SubCharge Magnezone uses Dual Screens Key and SupportKey as easy setup fodder though, while still having a favorable matchup against SwagKey.
 
For the ParaSwag set, Gliscor makes both a good partner and a good counter. For the counter side, he sits immune to t-wave, strong def, strong passive healing and readying to hit back with a STAB EQ. He also has access to subs to screw swagger over.

As for partner, a sub-toxic stall Gliscor set can be used to combat the ground and electric types that stop Klefki, as he can usually take them on 1v1; unless they carry ice moves.
 
Whats the best EV spread for Klefki. So far iv'e come up with 252 HP, and 126 in both defences with the remaining 4 in the defence stat you need the most (If bold then Sp, Def. If calm then Def)

I think my calculations where correct here, but if anyone thinks its EV's should be different, then please tell me, since I'm going to start EV training my new key I got with +29 HP iv, max def and sp. def Iv's (it also has max speed, for out speeding another Klefki (Unless other Klefki has speed investment)
 
I will say Klefki's weakness is primarily Taunt user; however, could this set be viable:

CroKi (similiar to Crocune)

Klefki @ Chesto Berry/Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Sp Def
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Recycle
- Draining Kiss
 
I've been a serious oddball lately running Torment on a 252 HP/252+ DEF/4 Sp.DEF Klefki with Spikes, Protect, and T-Wave.

It works on the same theory as TormenTran does, ruining Scarfers and the fact that Steel/Fairy is such good defensive typing means that some pokes won't be able to hit Klefki that hard.

Hitting, say, Garchomp on the switch with Torment completely ruins it vs Klefki, for instance.
 
I went as far as making a thread ab how lame this thing is. Ppl lead this thing, swagger and pray to god it hurts itself in confusion. Then they either t-wave or go straight to hiding behind a sub for protection. Everytime i verse this thing people have the best luck. Why is it that I hurt myself in my confusion what seems like everytime (when its 50% chance), but my 70% accurate focus blast misses about half the time. This pokemon is stupid and depends on luck to succeed with the sets I've been seeing.
Sub/T-Wave is pretty awesome.
Adding Swagger and Foul Play is just about as obnoxious as ParaFlinch Jirachi, though. :/
Prankster Tornadus is another great counter to him, if it hasn't been mentioned. As far as I know, he's the only guy with Prankster/Taunt that can outspeed him, and Klefki is total Taunt bait. And Tornadus at least occasionally runs Heat Wave.
 
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