Klefki is definitely a Pokemon with 4MSS. Between Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, Spikes, Imprison and Foul Play (I consider this support since it can deal with things like Aegislash without resorting to Earthquake and stuff), Klefki has a lot of things it wants to be doing all at once but can't, meaning either its teammates have to pick up the slack or learn to deal without it.I cant decide on a support klefki move set. especially with imprison on it.
Spikes, dual screens, imprison, t wave.
I think we have a case of 4 moveslot syndrome.
I plan to use it as a anti-support imprison lead if I see another support lead, or just priority dual screens with the help of focus sash.
Ugh. What do you guys think. I'm thinking about dropping t-wave. priority imprison is great for stopping other support leads.
I think this speaks for itself: the possibility of backfiring is very real for Klefki against most of the opponents it faces (even Skarmory can start breaking Subs with +2 STAB), while SupportKey does not really have to worry unduly about its opponent and set the playing field so that your real sweepers can start doing work. SwagKey can theoretically do this, but does so less reliably than SupportKey who doesn't need other Pokemon to set Spikes for it. I mean really, Klefki shouldn't be the one needing support to better do its job (which has a notorious hit-or-miss rate), it should be the one to support others.Obviously having a mega evolved absol early on is great against klefki, especially if it was freeish (like forcing a switch) because klefki has to be worried about EVERYTHING. But I think even espeon is better in the general countering of klefki.
394 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 128-151 (47.23 - 55.71%) -- 76.56% chance to 2HKOAlso does the showdown calc work properly for foul play? Because it says it does 47-55% damage to unboosted normal absol. I have to be doing something wrong.
Absol the glass cannon lmao. Also, how well does Klefki take a Fire Blast from an uninvested Megal Absol? (or with 4 points into special attack if it makes any difference). I'm wondering how much special attack EVs Absol would need to run to hopefully 1KO Klefki, if can even do that.394 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 128-151 (47.23 - 55.71%) -- 76.56% chance to 2HKO
I don't see what's wrong here.
Also people, if you really hate SwagKey that much, use Lum Berry Infiltrator Chandelure, however you could try a Scarf on it instead if you want it for more utility outside of destroying SwagKeys.
4 SpA (115 Base SpA) Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 154-182 (48.42 - 57.23%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO with LeftoversAbsol the glass cannon lmao. Also, how well does Klefki take a Fire Blast from an uninvested Megal Absol? (or with 4 points into special attack if it makes any difference). I'm wondering how much special attack EVs Absol would need to run to hopefully 1KO Klefki, if can even do that.
Mega Absol base special attack: 115
That's right, the Pokemon weak to Dark takes Foul Play loads better than the one that resists Dark. Xatu can stall against Foul Play with Roost and beat down Klefki with Night Shade or Heat Wave after PokeBank release.167 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Xatu: 92-110 (27.62 - 33.03%) -- possible 4HKO with Leftovers
You do realize that was for klefki in general? He can never feel safe laying spikes or thunder waving with a magic bouncer in play, this isn't a problem exclusive to swagkey at all.I think this speaks for itself: the possibility of backfiring is very real for Klefki against most of the opponents it faces (even Skarmory can start breaking Subs with +2 STAB), while SupportKey does not really have to worry unduly about its opponent and set the playing field so that your real sweepers can start doing work. SwagKey can theoretically do this, but does so less reliably than SupportKey who doesn't need other Pokemon to set Spikes for it. I mean really, Klefki shouldn't be the one needing support to better do its job (which has a notorious hit-or-miss rate), it should be the one to support others.
Welp, there's another Pokemon Mega Absol can't take advantage of Magic Bounce with reliably then. Foul Play is so good... damn.4 SpA (115 Base SpA) Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 154-182 (48.42 - 57.23%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers
438 Attack (95 Base Power Physical Dark) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 142-168 (52.39 - 61.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah it really isn't looking too good. All Klefki has to do is set up Light Screen, and Foul Play either for the 2HKO while Mega-Absol fails to KO back (since Klefki is like the only Pokemon to resist Dark + Fairy) or OHKO +2 Mega-Absol.
There is a reason why I kept listing Grounds and Electrics as the primary checks (still can't top Lum Infiltrator Chandelure~)
Very ironically...
That's right, the Pokemon weak to Dark takes Foul Play loads better than the one that resists Dark. Xatu can stall against Foul Play with Roost and beat down Klefki with Night Shade or Heat Wave after PokeBank release.
And possibility of backfiring isn't an argument for invalidity, lack of consistency is.
I have already claimed that I do not think SwagKey is unviable, just inconsistent, because when that inconsistency comes with a side dish of +2 sweeper in your face, it's not the prettiest of scenarios to find yourself in.In conclusion, I'm not trying to say SwagKey is unviable, just more inconsistent.
I've never said anything about Klefki not worrying about Magic Bouncers (bar maybe Absol who gets 2HKOed/OHKOed by Foul Play lol). But comparing to what both the Keys can do: 1) both Keys switch in on helpless opponents. 2) SupportKey lays down Spikes while SwagKey Subs (I am honestly considering Sub on SupportKey as well to avoid stuff like Leech Seed and Will-O-Wisp) while the opponent switches to a Ground-type/Electric-type/something that can threaten Klefki in general. 3) SupportKey gets the hell out of dodge while SwagKey tries to play rope-a-dope with its opponent. Can you see the difference here? SupportKey has already done part of its job and is leaving the rest to its teammates. SwagKey on the other hand is more or less forced to stay in if it does not want its efforts to be wasted, because unlike Spikes confusion can be rid off unconsciously. If the opponent does break through confusion, you are either forced to Sub until it finally hits itself (it may not D:) or have to deal with the +2 threat via teammates, while effectively having done nothing so far but waste your health & given the opponent sweeper a +2 boost. This level of uncertainty can limit what SwagKey can do in a match compared to what SupportKey can do in almost any match with much more consistency.You do realize that was for klefki in general? He can never feel safe laying spikes or thunder waving with a magic bouncer in play, this isn't a problem exclusive to swagkey at all.
Using Swagger without a Sub is suicide-50% of the time you get damaged heavily. So you end up setting up a Sub first...Swagkey doesn't need to stay in really unless it has a sub up, if you know they have something that can't be twaved, just swag it then get out.
There are so many things that beat SwagKey, and if a team has multiple your chances of haxxing past all of them is significantly reduced. If your opponent has a Ground/Electric type or a slow physical attacker that doesn't care about Thunder Wave and has a reasonably strong attack against Klefki, that could potentially beat SwagKey. In this case you have to either save SwagKey until later (which might be 3/4 of the match gone before you can use SwagKey, you never know), or you have to Sub before trying to Swag...And again, you're assuming they still have the counter to it, that for some reason someone felt it was a good idea to throw swagkey out anyway. Essentially you're just assuming misplaying and hard counters and claiming he's inconsistent due to them.
Like why are you throwing out klefki when they can still counter it? Why aren't you waiting until their options die down and you can more easily predict their next move so that when you know they'll switch to avoid the twave, you swag or sub then switch out like a regular klefki would. Support klefki still has trouble setting up on ground types too, even with reflect so a lot of these inconsistencies you bring up effect klefki in general, and for some reason you assume the ability to play around them applies only to your personal favorite kind of klefki.
Jirachi, at least by very-high level ladder players, is very seldom seen using ParaFlinch. It has other options like Calm Mind, Choice Scarf, Shuca Berry Garchomp lure, etc. Togekiss can function well as a defensive mon without Paraflinch, although Paraflinch is useful anyways since it needs STAB Air Slash and Thunder Wave is a great move on Kiss. Similarly, Klefki has another option in SupportKey.Now, forgive me if I presume too much, but it really feels like you're just personally biased against swagkey with these serious lapses in logic, and while admittedly it's my fault for being unable to concisely disprove them, I really feel that the idea to drop the comparisons is something i should've taken more seriously when it was suggested, because this is honestly EXACTLY like the consistency arguments against paraflinch togekiss and jirachi before their time. (which never went anywhere until actual usage statistics came out)
I went as far as making a thread ab how lame this thing is. Ppl lead this thing, swagger and pray to god it hurts itself in confusion. Then they either t-wave or go straight to hiding behind a sub for protection. Everytime i verse this thing people have the best luck. Why is it that I hurt myself in my confusion what seems like everytime (when its 50% chance), but my 70% accurate focus blast misses about half the time. This pokemon is stupid and depends on luck to succeed with the sets I've been seeing.hi guys I didn't bother reading thru the whole thread or anything just comin here to say that anyone who runs swagkey is a fuckin loser k thx bai
SwagKey doesn't have room for Light Screen, but Dual Screens can lay down all 3 layers of Spikes on non-Specs Magnezone. SubCharge Magnezone uses Dual Screens Key and SupportKey as easy setup fodder though, while still having a favorable matchup against SwagKey.After seeing how badly Mega Absol takes those Foul Plays, Magnezone is looking god-like in comparison lol. Thank you again for the calcs too (:
Keep in mind that Klefki can also Light Screen and make it even more frustrating for Magnezone, even with Choice Specs. If it really comes to a stall war, a more gimmicky option to consider with Magnezone is Charge Beam, as he'll be gaining boosts to his Special Attack while Light Screen/Special Defense investment/Substitutes will start to become obsolete for Klefki. Though you're probably right; Choice Specs would be the faster way... was just hoping to retain some Lefties on Magnezone, but hey, it's satifying to take down the Key.
Sub/T-Wave is pretty awesome.I went as far as making a thread ab how lame this thing is. Ppl lead this thing, swagger and pray to god it hurts itself in confusion. Then they either t-wave or go straight to hiding behind a sub for protection. Everytime i verse this thing people have the best luck. Why is it that I hurt myself in my confusion what seems like everytime (when its 50% chance), but my 70% accurate focus blast misses about half the time. This pokemon is stupid and depends on luck to succeed with the sets I've been seeing.