Move Knock Off

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JayHankEdLyon said:
I get your point in terms of Icicle Crash and Knock Off, but now that Dark hits Steel neutrally our girl doesn't really need a Fighting coverage move anymore, does she?

(That wasn't a stylistic "does she?", I'm actually asking. I can't think of any particular reason to use a Fighting move now but that doesn't mean a reason doesn't exist.)

Like Bisharp and Honchkrow, Weavile's really benefited from the Dark buff in terms of coverage. Now she can pull a Swords Dance set with Ice Shard and a more powerful ice move without shooting herself in the foot.
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Unfortunately despite the buff Weavile's moves base power are still not enough to power through several bulky pokemon. Off the top of my head Low Kick is crucial for Rock Types and bulky normal types such as porygon2 and chansey. You do raise a valid point this generation has proved to be a net gain for Weavile as few pokemon carry fairy type pokemon.
 
Weavile needs Technician so badly. Makes sense flavor-wise and would just be way helpful.

Then she needs Knock Off to be 60 BP.

Then she needs Force Palm.

And for Ice to get a defensive buff.
 
Weavile (and Sneasel in NU / LC) loves this move. It's only 5 points weaker than Night Slash while having great utility AND having 50% more power when it knocks off the opponent's item. Removing a Dragonite's Weakness Policy before finishing with Ice Shard is one particular situation I see this being particularly useful for, as well as all those Pokemon so reliant on Leftovers / Black Sludge recovery.
Shame it doesn't get rid of Mega Stones though...
 
It's a HUGE buff to Little Cup, where Knock Off is used to remove Eviolithe. Now it hits much harder then before. It's so powefull know that Berry Juice is more used.

I like the move a lot and think it will see play in OverUsed.
 
Anyone consider giving this move to Gliscor? It can just poison heal away its problems as soon as it eliminates the item and perhaps annoy them further with something like Toxic just to add insult to injury. Add that with Roost to stall a Pokemon that lost a reliable power boosting item and fun times are to be had. I gotta test this on my Gliscor and see if losing coverage from something like Ice Fang is a good idea or not.

As a plus, Knock Off would make Gliscor a definitive Aegislash counter. It already was a good counter for it as is with its bulk. It can take Shadow Sneak with no problem and by the time its done setting up a possible swords dance, it'll probably earthquake it to death by then and heal any earlier hits. And with Knock Off, it can say goodbye to its possible Weakness Policy and/or Leftovers.
 
To those asking why Technician fits Weavile, it's because it is a sneaky thief with light fingers, that's why. They give Technician to Pokemon that have the capability to show heavy dexterity.

Breloom = boxer
Ambipom = multi handed
Smeargle = artist

and so on. But anyway Weavile doesn't get Technician, and currently he also needs to choose between Icicle Crash and Knock Off, which really sucks. Also, is Low Kick really that much better than Low Sweep on most things? Considering rock types you want to hit SE who aren't part ground will be switching in on you most of the time...and it's not like he needs to worry about being denied by Scizor on the switch now. Scizor takes neutral from dark attacks now. It's getting chunked like everyone else, harder than low kick would have anyway.

Naturally, a Pickpocket Weavile doesn't want to use Knock Off for obvious reasons, but if you're running Pickpocket you're probably utilising a gimmicky countersash strategy anyway. Meanwhile Icicle Crash seems to benefit Weavile way less than Knock Off, which is infuriating to say the least. This means I can't even breed my Sneasels in gen V unless they release it as a move tutor in Z version. Well screw you GF.

I'll run Beat Up anyway, because I'm DANGEROUS like that.
 
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Megaman765 said:
Anyone consider giving this move to Gliscor? It can just poison heal away its problems as soon as it eliminates the item and perhaps annoy them further with something like Toxic just to add insult to injury. Add that with Roost to stall a Pokemon that lost a reliable power boosting item and fun times are to be had. I gotta test this on my Gliscor and see if losing coverage from something like Ice Fang is a good idea or not.

As a plus, Knock Off would make Gliscor a definitive Aegislash counter. It already was a good counter for it as is with its bulk. It can take Shadow Sneak with no problem and by the time its done setting up a possible swords dance, it'll probably earthquake it to death by then and heal any earlier hits. And with Knock Off, it can say goodbye to its possible Weakness Policy and/or Leftovers.
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Knock Off Gliscor can certainly work, but it's a matter of four move slots.

Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Poison Heal
Impish HP, Df and Spd EVs or
Jolly At, Df and Spd EVs
~ Knock Off
~ Protect/Dig/Sky Attack/Defog
~ Substitute
~ Toxic/Sword Dance

I say if you want to go pure stall and defense than you'd want Substitute with Toxic so you can outstall them, particularly if they use leftovers. The thing about Dig or Fly is that they are both STAB and work as a two-in-one Protect and attack, even if telegraphed, so it saves a slot that you would normally give to, say, Acrobatics were you using a Gem. Faster Gliscor would prefer Sword Dance to actually use Knock Off as a more reliable offensive move (65 BP after the item is gone without STAB is not very powerful). Plus when behind a Substitute a fast Gliscor can abuse the time it takes to charge a Sky Attack which has a good chance of flinching too.

I'd stick with the stall strategy though. Defog would be a good choice as well coming up if you want him to strictly support and you need Rocks gone
 
Jaroda said:
Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Poison Heal
Impish HP, Df and Spd EVs or
Jolly At, Df and Spd EVs
~ Knock Off
~ Protect/Dig/Sky Attack/Defog
~ Substitute
~ Toxic/Sword Dance
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Dig? Sky Attack? Those are moves people use on Gliscor? I'd use Protect and Substitute, but if I really need it to attack instead of protect, just give it Earthquake... Unless I missed something and charge up moves are suddenly viable. I just don't think that they work like a Protect like you said because someone can switch in a flyer/levitater on the Dig. Fly is a maybe since there's nothing really immune to it, but they could still easily switch a resist in. It just gives the opponent too much room to switch in and set up if they wanted to.

But this is a thread about knock off. I'm so disappointed that it wasn't 55 like it was reported on Serebii. I was all ready for using it on Scizor over pursuit or night slash. Still, I probably will like using it on Scizor anyway, because I'm bad at pursuit trapping and I like Knock Off for messing around with opponent's relying on their items to do well. The BP boost is just a bonus for me.
 
Groombridge said:
Drapion loves this. It already has a niche as an offensive utility poke, and a nice power boost suits it perfectly.

Drapion Black Sludge
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Cross Poison
- Earthquake
- Taunt / Whirlwind

Knock Off replaces Crunch, messing with so many pokes it's hilarious. It doesn't knock off Mega stones, but at least it can scout for them: say, if your opponent has a Garchomp and a Tyranitar, and Knock Off doesn't get anything from Chomp, you know what the mega will be.

It last-resort checks Mega Gengar: Knock Off does a ton of damage (although it misses Crunch here), it resists its STABs and is neutral to all of its coverage moves. If it tries Sub/Disable shenanigans, switch to EQ and remind it of its Ground weakness.

Poison STAB is more useful this gen, physical in particular. I completely forgot about the existence of Cross Poison until I looked up Drapion's moves just now (it's a Poison Slash clone), but I guess that's viable. EQ is non-negotiable. It'll normally KO Blade forme Aegislash, and Drapion resists its Shadow Sneak too.

Dark/Ground/Poison gives decent coverage (Skarm aside, although you can get its Lefties), so support for the fourth slot. Taunt to mess with things, or Whirlwind. Toxic Spikes aren't too great anymore with Defog getting more common. Or lol Acupressure.
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I actually love you for this. Drapion being one of my favorites I would like to point out that even though it won't do much Dark does now hot Steels for neutral damage and Skarmory loves its Shed Shell/Lefties
 
skarmory will probably stay OU it just has so much utility and chances to switch in. entry hazards and whirlwind 2 good. So drapion won't need to worry about him. Drapion will probably become a premier pokemon in UU though. he is shaping up to be really strong this gen with his typing and buffs.
 
MagnetBoy said:
skarmory will probably stay OU it just has so much utility and chances to switch in. entry hazards and whirlwind 2 good. So drapion won't need to worry about him. Drapion will probably become a premier pokemon in UU though. he is shaping up to be really strong this gen with his typing and buffs.
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Drapion will probably take Crobat's place in UU as the premier stall breaker.
 
Johw said:
What happens if you use Knock Off against a pokemon with Assault Vest? I remember reading in the Assault Vest thread that it can't be knocked off/tricked away.
Would it deal no additional damage as it wouldn't remove the item?
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Specifically, Assault Vest acts like a permanent taunt on the holder. Which means that it blocks the holder from using Trick or Switcheroo (unless the item is nullified in some way like by Klutz). But if you can get the move to fire, like if the opponent uses trick/knock off, it will fall off or be tricked as it normally does.
 
Why use Toxic on that set when you could use Sand Tomb? Gliscor is amazing with the new buffed Sand Tomb. Trap something, knock off its leftovers, then whittle it down with passive damage.
 
I'm actually considering trying out Drapion for my team not only to help with phazing, but to be a jerk with Stab Knock Off since right now its probably the only Pokemon that can effectively use it as a stab move and phaze at the same time. (Until Pokebank is out that is) And just a question, if Knock Off one hit KO'd a Pokemon that's holding onto a focus sash, Does the focus sash activate first or does it get knocked off first to completely negate the effect? Smeargle would hate that.
 
A little late to the party, but I was considering putting this on my Crawdaunt over Crunch. It seems the consensus is that it's pretty much always superior to Crunch, so I guess I'll carry on then.
 
WaffleLeech said:
A little late to the party, but I was considering putting this on my Crawdaunt over Crunch. It seems the consensus is that it's pretty much always superior to Crunch, so I guess I'll carry on then.
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That's not true. It's always superior to night slash, but not crunch. Equivalent 160 power from crunch, or 130 from knock off. Although knock off does have 162 with two hits vs a target with an item, it really loses out on damage over multiple turns or against Pokemon that have already lost their items.
 
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I'm really excited about this. At first I was disappointed that this was just outside technician range, but seeing that it has increased power when it knocks off an item makes me really eager to use it. Most times, almost all pokemon will have an item being held, so this pretty much guarantees 97 power for the first time it hits a pokemon, in addition to removing items like lefties. A lot of pokemon can now run this over weaker substitutes like Night Slash. To compare, two hits of this assuming it knocks off an item is 162 base power, more than two hits of crunch. If you're running this on an offensive pokemon, you usually won't need more than a few turns, so the power loss isn't that significant.

I'm going to have a lot of fun with this on sets like Mega Scizor, Weavile, and Crawdaunt.
 
S0L1D G0LD said:
That's not true. It's always superior to night slash, but not crunch. Equivalent 160 power from crunch, or 130 from knock off. Although knock off does have 162 with two hits vs a target with an item, it really loses out on damage over multiple turns or against Pokemon that have already lost their items.
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Well Crawdaunt is not going to EVER need to hit something more than twice to KO it. Adaptability too strong
 
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So I have been running knock off on my offensive donphan recently and i love it so far. Its the perfect spin block deterant. No one in their right mind wants to try to play mind games with focus sash and life orb gengars anymore and trevenant becomes much more manageable after it loses 75% health.
 
Aura Flare Riolu said:
It still has a x2 resistance to it which is better than nothing I suppose. And Justified is the only ability prior to Mega Evolution that you should be using anyways.
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But Steadfast....

I've been playtesting a bit and I really like Knock Off on a Stall Mega Scizor. It is pretty weak to boosting special attackers and things with recovery, but it is pretty good and can U Turn out easily in those situation even though it gives them a free turn.

Physically Defensive
U-Turn
Roost
Knock Off
Defog/Bullet Punch/Pursuit/IDK I should try Toxic
 
The Item Ender
Greninja@protean life orb
-Waterfall
-Shadow Sneak/Rock Slide
-U-turn
-Knock Off

I tested this, and to my suprise, it kinda worked. No where near perfect, but i did KO at least 5 pokemon in 7 battles once.
 
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