Kyogre, please.

[jackm]

Hi there,

If I'm keeping track correctly, this is my 3rd RMT. While that's completely irrelevant to anything you're about to read, I just felt like saying that. Anyways, the team you are currently to read about is a sun stall team. It uses unorthodox methods to send kyogre a massive "screw you". And it peaked at #33, which is pretty good for me. So, without further ado, I present:

Kyogre, Please.

Arceus-Fight (Arceus-Fighting) @ Fist Plate Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Recover
- Perish Song
- Judgment
- Ice Beam


The first member of my team, Arceus-Fighting is a unique touch that creates enormous amounts of surprise value in battle. Recover is self-explanatory, as is Judgement, but the other two attacks require a bit more explanation. Perish Song is one of the reasons why this guy is so mandatory, as along with Arceus's huge special bulk and resistance to rock and dark, it allows me to screw over endgame juggernauts like Arceus-Rock/Dark, which would otherwise destroy me. Ice Beam nails opposing Giratina-O, Shaymin-S, and a good chunk of the rest of the Uber metagame. The EV spread allows it to outspeed max speed Terrakion and OHKO with Judgement. The rest is basically just poured into physical bulk, allowing it to survive various hits including +2 Life Orb Extremespeed from an Extremekiller. This guy was originally Arceus-Water, but because of trouble with endgame sweeper Arceus-Rock/Dark I had to shift. RIP Arceus-Water, you surprised so many Ferrothorns with your Sun-fueled Fire Blasts... :-(

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/252 Sdef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dragon Tail
This guy needs more usage. I'll digress from commentary for a moment to provide backup for my claim. This is a list of all of the non Super-Effective moves commonly used by uber pokemon that can 2HKO it:

Deoxys-A (Uber Life Orb) Psycho Boost: 64.01 - 75.54%
Kyogre (Uber Choice Specs) (Rain) Water Spout: 64.01 - 75.54%
Deoxys-A (Uber Focus Sash Attacker) Psycho Boost: 54.27 - 64.01%

Yep, 3 attacks, two of which are essentially the same, just different names. Giratina serves as wall #1 on my team, shutting down a variety of threats. He is also part of my Kyogre disposal team, sponging Scarf Water Spouts and Surfs that would otherwise cause problems.

Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
-Outrage
-Bolt Strike
-Dragon Claw
-Volt Switch


Zekrom is essentially the offensive glue and pivot of my team. It helps with managing a couple of important threats including Mewtwo and Kyogre. The moveset is fairly self-explanatory, as are the EVs, so I'll skip that part. Volt Switch is a move with a need for explanation, so I will go over it for the sake of being thorough. It's helpful for forcing switches to abuse hazards and for scouting for Arceus types. This position was originally occupied by Lugia, who I regretfully have chosen to replace because I was too weak to Mewtwo and Co. RIP Lugia!

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Toxic


Ok, Chansey is sort of boring, but is so extremely necessary for this team to operate that it probably gets MVP most matches. Honestly, Chansey takes hits like a champ. It also synergises well with my entire team except for Arceus. Chansey is my primary answer to Reshiram, Palkia, and a lot of other pokemon which give sun teams trouble. Also, Chansey has the important job of making sure that Forretress has sufficient HP to set up hazards, which he unfortunately burns through rather quickly. Seismic Toss was used when Lugia was still around (we miss you) but without Lugia's Toxic Chansey needs to run it to allow it to poison a variety of threats who are immune to Toxic Spikes.

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Payback


Ah, the unsung hero of my team. So integral, yet almost always dead at the end. Forretress is armed with the deadly weapon which is Toxic Spikes. This is probably the most necessary move in the entire team, followed by Spikes. Both of which, coincidentally, are part of Forretress's moveset. He also has the important job of being the only steel-type on the team. However, it's not alone when it comes to sponging the powerful dragon-type attacks of Ubers. Groudon can help with Outrages, while if Forretress is weak, Chansey can switch into a Draco Meteor and use wish, subsequently switching back into-guess who?-Forretress. Rapid Spin, while occasionally proving useful, usually ends up being more of a psychological threat. The opponent know that they have to keep their precious hazards for their rain team to function, so they send in Giratina(-O). Free hazards. Payback is for Mewtwo, dealing 41.24% - 48.58% and allowing Forretress to maintain pressure.

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Man, I really wish Groudon had reliable recovery. If it did, it would be so much more useful. Oh well. Anyways, despite not having recover (or morning sun, cmon, Gamefreak, please?), Groudon plays an important part in the team. He provides Sun, which weakens the assaults of Kyogre and Co. He also helps me to check a variety of different threats including Zekrom, EK Arceus, and Tyranitar. The moveset is fairly self explanatory, with the only slightly controversial move being Stone Edge. And why, on earth, would you use the 80% accurate Stone Edge when you could have Fire Punch, which essentially has 12.5% more power in sun and a more useful type? To kill Ho-oh, that's why. That's also why there are 36 speed EVs invested, to outrun the Ho-ohs (and Dialgas) which preside at the 224 speed mark. The rest is just geared towards Defense, don't mind it.

Importable:

Hide

Arceus-Fight (Arceus-Fighting) @ Fist Plate Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Perish Song
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dragon Tail
Lugia @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 204 Def / 96 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Payback
Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Well, that's it folks! Hope you enjoyed this RMT, and any and all criticism is wanted!

(see next post for threatlist)
​

 

[jackm]

Work in progress-half done with Dialga
(Ugh, now I have to redo it because of replacing Lugia)
Threat List

Black indicates No to Very Little Threat
Orange indicates Very Little to Moderate Threat
Red indicates Moderate to Severe Threat

Arceus:

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Extremekiller: Everything except Chansey contributes to combating it, depends on the situation. Typically not a problem.

Wallceus: Never seen it before in my life, but if it comes up, should be able to break it with poison. Arceus-Fighting 2HKOs with Judgement.

Arceus-Bug:

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Calm Mind: Never seen Arceus-Bug at all before, but Calm Mind set is walled depending on the coverage option. If it's anything other than Fire Blast, Forretress walls it into oblivion, and deals 26.7 - 31.41% with Payback. Chansey can Toxic, though sustaining moderate damage.

Swords Dance: Walled by Giratina.

Arceus-Dark:

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Calm Mind: God, I hate this guy. If I can get it so it's the last pokemon, Perish Song kills it. Generally, Arceus-Fighting can handle it.

Support: Never actually seen this before, but Arceus-Fighting can handle it. If it lacks both Flamethrower and Magic Coat, Forretress can set hazards on it.

Arceus-Dragon:

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Swords Dance: Forretress can set up on Outrage, if not too boosted. Groudon can switch in on the boost and phaze, though taking a good deal of damage in the process. Zekrom can take it.

Calm Mind: Never seen this before, but it's surprisingly tricky to handle. If it's the last pokemon, Perish Song screws it over. Smooshed by Zekrom.

Arceus-Electric:

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Calm Mind: Depends on the specific set. Usually, Toxic can wear it down, but if for some reason it's a Refreshing mono-attacker, Groudon walls and OHKOs with Earthquake.

Arceus-Fighting:

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Calm Mind: This guy is tricky to handle. Chansey can try for Toxic, but takes major damage in the process. As always, my own Arceus-Fighting can provide an emergency Perish Song.

Support: Forretress can set up on it. Chansey can pass Wishes off of its weak Judgements to Forretress.

Arceus-Fire:

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Calm Mind: Giratina walls it.

Arceus-Flying:

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Calm Mind: Groudon deals 46.19 - 54.59% with Stone Edge. This guy, though I've never seen it before, is a threat to my team. It has the capacity to obliterate Arceus-Fighting before it can use Perish Song, and can tank everything else I can throw at it except for Zekrom's Bolt Strike, which murders it.

Arceus-Ghost:

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Calm Mind: This is one of those ones where I really wish I had given Forretress Toxic. It's vulnerable to Toxic Spikes though, and I can pull the old "phaze phaze phaze phaze-oh, last pokemon-perish song" maneuver on it usually.

Swords Dance: Same as Calm Mind, but helped by Groudon.

Lead: Never really seen this before, it's not a threat in any way to my team.

Support: Tricky to get around, but can be worn down with Toxic/hazards.

Arceus-Grass:

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Calm Mind: Giratina walls it, Forretress can set up on it. Easy-peasey.

Support: Vulnerable to Toxic Spikes. Can't do nuthin' to Giratina.

Arceus-Ground:

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Swords Dance: Giratina can burn it, albeit taking 50.89 - 60.23% in the process from a +2 Earthquake. Groudon can tank a hit and phaze in an emergency.

Calm Mind: Never seen this before, but oh well.Giratina walls it, Chansey can be a fallback if I need to get Giratina a wish.

Support: Never seen this either, but Giratina and Groudon both wall it, though Groudon can't take Will-o-Wisp.

Arceus-Ice:

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Calm Mind: Never seen this before, and don't see why anyone would use it. Chansey walls it.

Arceus-Poison:

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Support: Forretress sets up on it if it carries Ice Beam. Lugia does the same if it's carrying Flamethrower. Chansey is used as a punching bag. Next.

Calm Mind: Walled by Giratina. Groudon OHKOs with Earthquake. I actually really hate this guy, not because he's hard to counter, because he isn't, but because he soaks up Toxic Spikes and is immune to Toxic.

Arceus-Psychic:

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Calm Mind: Walled by Giratina, vulerable to Hazards. Poses absolutely no threat to anything on my team whatsoever except for Arceus-Fighting.

Utility Counter: Never seen this before in my life. Forretress sets up on it easily, Groudon 2HKOs.

Arceus-Rock:

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Mono-Attacker: I hate this set with a deep, burning passion. The reason for this is that when Arceus-Water was in the place of Arceus-Fighting,I would just lose and lose again to a last-pokemon sweep by this thing. Now, however, Arceus-Fighting does a pretty good job of handling it (credit to Furai for the suggestion). That said, the fear factor that it has imbued in my brain associated with it is enough for me to keep Arceus-Fighting completely healthy until I know what their Arceus is, unless it's really obvious that it's not Arceus-Rock (as in, a team preview where I see tyranitar/terrakion/arceus/giratina-o/excadrill/garchomp, in which case it would be fairly obvious that arceus was of the grass type).

Offensive Calm Mind: If it lacks Recover, Chansey can wall it and wear it down. It's vulnerable to Toxic Spikes. Arceus-Fighting can use Perish song if it's the last pokemon.

Swords Dance: Giratina+Groudon=Win. Simple as that.

Arceus-Steel:

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Calm Mind: Groudon and Forretress both wall it. It can be worn down through hazards. However, it usually takes a while because of its resistances to Stealth Rock and Dragon Tail.

Swords Dance: Never seen this before, but if I do, my entire team sans Chansey beats it into the ground. Game over.

Arceus-Water:

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Swords Dance: Groudon walls it under sun, as does Forretress. Chansey can stall if it's not raining. Wrecked by Zekrom.

Offensive Calm Mind: Tricky, depending on the coverage, but usually Chansey can wear it down. Again, wrecked by Zekrom.

Defensive Calm Mind: Arceus-Fighting can Perish Song it if it's the last pokemon. Otherwise, phaze it a bunch. Actually quite dangerous if Groudon or Zekrom aren't around.

Blaziken:

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Swords Dance: Walled by Giratina.

Darkrai:

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Nasty Plot: Tricky to handle, but once something is asleep, I can beat it with either Zekrom or Arceus.

Choice Scarf: Not common, but Zekrom can switch in on Trick and scout. Forretress can set up on it.

Deoxys:

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Support: Forretress beats it into the ground. Zekrom can deal revenge. Not a threat at all.

Deoxys-A:

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Life Orb: God, this guy is hard to deal with. It hugely threatens every single pokemon on my team; however, if Forretress is at full health, it can tank an HP Fire due to sturdy and OHKO with Payback (or 3HKO with Rapid Spin, lol) but seriously, this guy is a huge threat. Thankfully, Life Orb damage builds up pretty quickly along with hazards, and clever switching can usually end up killing it. In addition, Zekrom outspeeds, which is helpful.

Focus Sash: If the Sash is broken, this guy is typically easier to handle than Life Orb because of the lack of power (I mean, relative to the LO set) but the Focus Sash prevents an OHKO from Forretress with Payback. Zekrom thing still applies.

Deoxys-S:

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Suicide Lead: While this isn't really a threat to my team due to Forretress being able to spin, it's pretty hard for me to actually prevent it from doing its job. Typically though, offensive pressure is the way to go.

Dual Screens: Sweet Jesus, this guy is deadly. Not because of his imminent power, but because of the fact that he can set up screens (obviously) to protect things like Mewtwo. Typically, the best thing to do is switch to Zekrom. From there, usually Bolt Strikes, even behind reflect, seriously dent most sweepers.

Dialga:

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Defensive: If it's not carrying Fire Blast, Forretress sets up on it. Chansey walls it, but can't do anything to it. Groudon and Arceus can threaten it with their STABs.

Special Attacker: Essentially the same as Defensive, but Forretress can't set up.

Mixed:

Bulk Up:

Choice Scarf:

Excadrill:

Garchomp:

Giratina:

Giratina-O:

Groudon:

Ho-Oh:

Kyogre:

Lugia:

Manaphy:

Mewtwo:

Palkia:

Rayquaza:

Reshiram:

Shaymin-S:
Thundurus:

Zekrom:

Non-Ubers

Bisharp:

Blissey:

Chansey:

Deoxys-D:

Dugtrio:

Espeon:

Whimsicott:

Forretress:

Gastrodon:

Gengar:
Haxorus:

Heatran:

Heracross:

Jirachi:

Kingdra:

Kyurem:

Latias:

Latios:

Lucario:

Ludicolo:

Mew:

Metagross:

Ferrothorn:

Hydreigon:

Quagsire:

Salamence:

Scizor:

Chandelure:

Shedinja:

Skarmory:

Tentacruel:

Terrakion:
Tornadus:

Tyranitar:

Victini:

Wobbuffet:​

 

[calze6]

I'd watch out for mewtwo, as it can pretty much super effective anything and 2HKO/OHKO ur entire team, so u'll have to use background dmg to get it down. U may wanna consider payback for forry to help stop it. Other than that, great team!

 

[Furai]

Hey there jackm, very interesting sun stall team! Glad to see you took my advice about Fight Arceus.

Firstly, I don't see why are you running Fire Blast on Fight Arceus. Judgment hits everything Fire Blast does: both Skarmory and Forretress have a good chance of being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. You can change Fire Blast to either Will-O-Wisp or Ice Beam. Will-O-Wisp allows you to burn and cripple Extreme Killer Arceus and Rayquaza, whereas Ice Beam allows you to snipe down opposing Dragons, such as Rayquaza and Salamence. Moreover, I suggest changing its EV spread to 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 Spe. Doing so will allow you to outspeed Choice Band Terrakion and easily OHKO, as well as never being OHKOed by Jolly +1 Life Orb Rayquaza's Outrage and +2 Adamant Life Orb Arceus's ExtremeSpeed.

Onto your Giratina. As your calcs show, Giratina is a great tank to any attack. But, did you consider making it Specially Defensive?:

Deoxys-A (Uber Life Orb) Psycho Boost: 48.31 - 56.85% -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO
Kyogre (Uber Choice Specs) (Rain) Water Spout: 47.71 - 56.46% -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO​

Therefore, I strongly recommend changing its EV spread and nature to 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD, Careful. +2 Life Orb Extreme Killer's Shadow Claw will still not OHKO.

Lugia and Chansey are a great defensive duo, props for making them work together like that. Just move 4 EVs from Defense to HP, as now Lugia will be able to switch into Stealth Rock 4 times without dying, and still having 101 Subs. The EV spread should now be 208 HP / 204 Def / 96 Spe.

Like calze6, I also support Payback over Volt Switch on Forretress. Your team is horribly weak to Mewtwo, and by using Payback, which does 41.24% - 48.58%) and changing Giratina to Specially Defensive you have got a shot against it. Just play very carefully as you see it, and try to get Toxic Spikes up as soon as possible. **You can also try Pain Split over Spikes or something, to increase Forretress's lifespan, but your team seems to enjoy them.

Lastly, Groudon should have Roar over Dragon Tail, as Substitute Pokemon, such as Ho-Oh and SubCM Giratina-O, will easily set up on it.

tl;dr

• Will-O-Wisp or Ice Beam > Fire Blast on Fight Arceus
• Changing Fight Arceus's EV spread 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 Spe
• Changing Giratina's EV spread and nature to 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD, Careful nature
• Changing Lugia's EV spread to 208 HP / 204 Def / 96 Spe
• Payback > Volt Switch on Forretress *Pain Split is an option over some of its moves, up to you.
• Roar > Dragon Tail on Groudon

Good Luck!

 

[jackm]

Thanks for the rates, Furai and calze6! I made all of the changes that you two specified. Furai, in terms of why I was running Fire Blast, I'm not really sure, in retrospect. I guess I neglected to run sufficient calcs.

One question, Furai:

I've never really understood this, but what's the point of the 248 HP/8 Def/252 Sdef spreads that Giratina runs? Why not just go 252/252?

 

[Furai]

Odd HP numbers means less entry hazards damage from Spikes and Stealth Rock, which are very common in Ubers. With the amount of bulky spinblockers in the tier, you might find that useful. You don't lose any bulk anyway.


I'll think of something a bit safer against Mewtwo and Kyogre, I'll get back to you if I find it.

 

[jackm]

Thanks for the clarification. I have always understood the whole odd HP number thing, I guess I just didn't consider entry hazards a threat to Giratina. You can never be to safe, though...

 

[shrang]

Just saying, Mewtwo with Fire Blast OHKOs like your entire team with a boost, except maybe Giratina, who I'd estimate would be taking about 80% minimum from Psystrike. There really isn't too much you can do about him. I'm not too sure which one of your Pokemon would be the weakest link to throw out, but if you feel like you need to check these Mewtwo, you can always consider using Choice Scarf Victini or Zekrom, which both of them fit on your team pretty well.

 

[jackm]

I'm having some trouble fitting Scarf Zekrom onto my team. Usually I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but could someone help me get it on? (no sexual connotation intended)

 

[Varfor]

Over all, It's a very well rounded team. Good job!

If you wanted to use scarf Zekrom on your team, I would recommend replacing Lugia and making Giratina physically defensive.
You do not need Lugia to wall Extreme-Killer Arceus, as Giratina and Groudon are more than adequate for the job. Without Lugia, Giratina and Chansey can sponge almost any attack other than physical dragon type moves, which can be taken by Groudon or Forretress.
Unfortunately, you would lose your only pokemon that has both leftovers and reliable recovery, (Though not "reliable", Giratina's rest works very well for it, I've used that set on almost every Ubers team I've made; alternating between physically defensive and specially defensive) but if you want to use a Zekrom, Lugia is probably the best pokemon to get rid of.

 

[Jerp]

This looks like a good team, well made!

Just a few things to watch out for:

Deoxys-A wrecks hell on your team
Arceus Ghost wrecks hell on your team if he gets a chance to use SD, then any ghost move/fighting move

A check to A-Ghost would be helpful here, as I see him run w/ kyogre fairly often...(I do it too)

 

[jackm]

Ok, due to consensus that lugia should be replaced with scarf Zekrom, I will do as follows:

Replace lugia with Zekrom
Switch Giratina back to Physically defensive

The reason for the second change is that Zekrom will help with Kyogre, so its Giratina's bulk can afford to tend to the physical side. Also, without Lugia, Giratina is needed to help handle Extremekiller.

RIP Lugia! (You were always my favorite Pokemon...)

 

[WiseWhiscash]

Congrats, this is a very well made RMT :D

Now, on the team, the advent of Arceus Fighting pathes up some weaknesses, however, I just find that maybe Arceus-Steel would be a better option? It patches up the same holes, and handles the other Arceus that give you issues (Rock, I doubt the other player wants to risk the speed-tie and take heavy damage from stab judgement, flying, dark, etc.). It also takes a huge weight off of Forretress's shoulders being the only dragon resist. We all know that every Uber team isn't comlete without appropriate dragon resists, and as you said forr. is a much needed poke but is often found dead by the end of the battle. I don't know, but those are my thoughts.

Have fun, see you on the ladder!

 

[mtr]

Fight Arceus matches better vs. Darkrai.

Not sure why you don't use Palkia over Zekrom tbh, but it doesn't matter THAT much, just lets you handle SpecsOgre a bit easier.

 

[albinorhino]

well one thing you want to think about is switching crunch for outrage on zekrom. I have a scarf palkia on my team and there have been lots of time people have come in with a scarf zekrom and outraged and i get the easy revenge kill. you have dragon claw for coverage and crunch hits mewtwo hard who seems like a problem for your team. Also, im not sure about payback on forretress, my mewtwo(and i would suspect many others) has flamethrower, and unless hes at 100% health, hes OHKOd even in rain so you wont get a chance to payback. I would suggest gyro ball because it breaks alot of subs of fast set up sweepers. and since mewtwo basically 2hkos your entire team, you might want to slap twave on something in hopes to stop it. hope this helped