Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?

[SJCrew]

Something's still wrong with your calculations. According to mine, Kyurem-B is still OHKOed after Stealth Rock with a neutral nature: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 306-362 (75.55 - 89.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

May write more about Kyurem-B later, but as a quick opinion, I'm not impressed by it now and never have been. It has a couple of funky niches with sub sets, but if those were ever that good in the first place, it could have easily been replaced by Kyurem. Removing Kyurem-B does absolutely nothing for OU, as it has no major impact on the meta (the Pokemon that can beat it handily are already popular: Scizor, Jirachi, Ferro), save for making it even harder to fight Drizzle. It's just another threatening Dragon with a lot of weaknesses and significant holes in its game. If anything, I am glad to hear it is far more threatening than people expected it to be now, as I wasn't expecting much from it when it dropped.

 

[acheron01]

I'm starting to think a lot of people want Kyurem-B to be re-tested and subsequently banned just because it's the only Titan in OU (titan is my term for the main-game legendary pokemon). Relax guys, it's just the power shift becoming fully realized. Who knows how many long-thought Uber pokemon will be mainstain OU next gen...or UU even (hai KYUREM-W, darkrai, thunderus, landorus, tornadus-t, excadrill, blaziken, manaphy, shaymin-s, deoxys-d, deoxys-s, among others that may be OU next gen).

When I said earlier about Kyruem-B being somewhat difficult to counter, lets face the facts: Breloom, Scizor, and Ferrothorn are found on at least 40-60% of teams, SR on even more, and while kyurem may be "stupid strong", a lot of things are stupid strong and it's only the beginning of there being a lot of those in OU. Plus, the metagame is quite stable, and I'm perfectly fine with leaving Kyurem alone until next gen.

 

[MewTheDestroyer]

Kyurem-B is a Pokemon I'm torn on banning, mainly because sure, the Choice Band set 2 hits all of OU (almost with just Outrage) and the Substitute set tears any type of team apart, but then those common weaknesses keep it from shining like it truly could.

 

[Naheed]

Hi, I'm Naheed. I just wanted to commend you guys for the awesome discussion that's going on here. I love to see differing opinions. Anyway, let me address the main point of this thread: Kyurem-B. Ever since Kyurem-B's inception, I've marveled at its amazing stats and unique typing. However, at a closer glance, I realized that, like many Pokemon, Kyu-B has its faults. A virtually nonexistent physical Ice-type movepool, an underwhelming Speed stat, a poor, albeit interesting, typing... The list goes on. However, despite these negative attributes, I'm definitely pro-ban. This ideal primarily stems from a set listed by Gary: the "mixed attacker" set. Let me take a little time to analyze that particular set further. Outrage, as a move, is very significant for Dragon-types. With its sheer power and almost completely unresisted typing, it really does a number on Pokemon that aren't prepared for it. Also, when coming off a Dragon-type with 170 base Attack, it's very difficult to stop. Surprisingly, I feel that Hidden Power Fire is the most important move on the set. Although Kyu-B's Special Attack stat isn't stellar, it still helps deal with Pokemon that would normally wall it otherwise. Ferrothorn and Skarmory are typically viewed as the bane of Cube's existence, but with HP Fire, this problem is somewhat alleviated. Earth Power is also a nifty move, especially since it helps deal with Heatran, the occasional Bronzong, and other Steel-types. Ice Beam isn't the most influential move within the set, but since it's Cube's only reliable Ice STAB, it's an essential component.

Although I am pro-ban (which is due to Cube's outstanding strength and coverage options), I have to consider its weaknesses. Personally, I feel that its Speed stat is its biggest letdown. Sitting at a subpar 95 base, Kyu-B finds it difficult to outspeed central threats. This can be semi-rectified with a Choice Scarf, but like many other Scarf users, it doesn't appreciate being locked into one move. In addition to that, Kyu-B is, as mentioned by Gary, particularly weak to priority moves. Hard-hitters like Scizor and Conk can pick away at Cube's HP pretty easily. Also, because Stealth Rock is a dominating force in competitive play, being weak to it is never good. Of course, this can be mitigated by bouncers and spinners, but it's still a difficult thing to deal with.

Considering these points, I still think of Kyu-B as one of the most powerful threats in the OU metagame... And should be treated as such. It was nice talking with you guys.

 

[Nysyr]

My recent OU suspect laddering experience convinced me of just how broken this thing is without Keldeo around to check it while applying actual pressure and not being complete zone bait.

The life orb set is just rediculous to try and get around with a balanced team that doesn't pack a steel type that outspeeds it.

Doesn't help that everyone is using it on spikes stacking teams, since there is no way to spin with Kyu-B starring at you.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

As someone who's used Kyurem-B pretty extensively, to say that Kyurem-B doesn't need support is absurd. It's very vulnerable to hazards and will be forced out a lot, so a spinner is almost as vital as if you're using Dragonite or Volcarona. Kyu-B also needs it's teammates to take priority well, which is why I find Jellicent to be an amazing partner for it. Jellicent walls several fighting types that force Kyurem-B out as well as tanking every Priority move apart from the rare Shadow Sneak.

Another misconception is that Kyurem-B's movepool is bad. Maybe it's lacking Physical Ice STAB and a boosting move that's not Hone Claws, sure but Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Earth Power, Substitute, Roost and HP Fire are all it needs. Any more moves and it would be pushed out of OU.

The whole reason it's so rare is because new players see "Oh wow, Base 170 attack!! Can you IMAGINE how powerful that is with a Choice Band?" Then take it off their team when it's Outrage does nothing to Ferrothorn. If you don't play Kyurem-B like an idiot, you WILL net a KO with it at least once a game. However, you have to support it and play it smart.

So do I think it's broken? Not sure. Do I think it's Suspect worthy? Definitely.

 

[Grey Knight]

Well i have to mention that i don't know much about the different sets kyurem-b can run, but i must say that the fact its banded set 2hkoes weakens or destroys the only pokemon that are able to resist dragon opening the way for other dragons to decimate the opponents team looks a bit broken to me.


i will provide quality replays of mine to back up what i am Saying

 

[Shurtugal]

I've been using 252 HP DTail KyuB on my Skarm offense and I got to say KyuB is sooooo bulky. Mach from SashLoom does 58%, Keldeos non-EB SS does 65%, Bullet Punch does around 68% from CB Scizor (while Jolly SD does less at +0) and Iron Head is a 3hko no rocks.

DTail lures counters so easily and scatters hazard damage so simply that its laughable. IDK if its broken but its pretty goddamn good from what I've seen.

EDIT: I prefer roost on my DTail set for longevity.

 

[Yuttt]

When I was a much worse player, I made quite a few teams starring the subDtail set, and could easily sweep unprepared teams with just a few hazards. He's bulky and extremely powerful. I think his bulk is starting to get more recognition now, as it can easily get a sub on bulky waters and other things even with minimal defensive investment.

 

[Gary]

Yeah I agree with both of you guys. Even though this thread is dead for the most part, I feel like it deserves the spotlight. In the incredibly offensive metagame that we have right now, something with useful resistances and incredible bulk is something that shouldn't be ignored. I've heard great things about that set overall.

 

[Yuttt]

I haven't used that specific set with a high rating, do you think it works well against higher-tier players (basically players with 2100+ ACRE)?
I think the most viable sets are ones including the use of either Sub or holding a scarf, as otherwise they are easy to revenge (on offensive teams) with many common threats, such as Terrakion and Keldeo.

 

[Shurtugal]

Yeah it works I got OUCurrent req. with it lol. (Then again that was a troll team with modest specs Keldeo so take it for what it's worth). I've peaked page 1 on PO w/ it and @Spinda got top 20 on PO w/ it too so it can't be too bad, right?

 

[youngjake93]

I've been using 252 HP DTail KyuB on my Skarm offense and I got to say KyuB is sooooo bulky. Mach from SashLoom does 58%, Keldeos non-EB SS does 65%, Bullet Punch does around 68% from CB Scizor (while Jolly SD does less at +0) and Iron Head is a 3hko no rocks.

DTail lures counters so easily and scatters hazard damage so simply that its laughable. IDK if its broken but its pretty goddamn good from what I've seen.

EDIT: I prefer roost on my DTail set for longevity.

I use CB 252 HP with Outrage/Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail/Fusion Bolt sometimes. Taking full advantage of the "look how powerful 170 attack CB dragon attacks are" effect actually works. Dragon Claw makes it so you can do nice damage without the risk of locking into Outrage too early. CB Dragon Tail with a custap hazards lead(I use Forretress) quickly overwhelms anything that dares to switch in. CB Outrage annihalates late game with hazards up. Fusion Bolt hits Skarm, Tran, Toed, etc harder, but the 3 dragon moves oddly enough cover most situations you'll end up in if you have an ounce of prediction skill.

With this set up stuff dies, it just does, but it requires much more support(early hazards, spinner, second attacker that appreciates softened steel types) than sub, mixed or scarf sets

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

It amazes me how something with such a so-called bad movepool could have so many good sets. Has anyone ever tried anything like an Offensive set with Hone Claws before? I would think with how common priority is, it would be too hard to get 2 free turns to get to the equal power of 1 Swords Dance.

 

[Shurtugal]

I use CB 252 HP with Outrage/Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail/Fusion Bolt sometimes. Taking full advantage of the "look how powerful 170 attack CB dragon attacks are" effect actually works. Dragon Claw makes it so you can do nice damage without the risk of locking into Outrage too early. CB Dragon Tail with a custap hazards lead(I use Forretress) quickly overwhelms anything that dares to switch in. CB Outrage annihalates late game with hazards up. Fusion Bolt hits Skarm, Tran, Toed, etc harder, but the 3 dragon moves oddly enough cover most situations you'll end up in if you have an ounce of prediction skill.

With this set up stuff dies, it just does, but it requires much more support(early hazards, spinner, second attacker that appreciates softened steel types) than sub, mixed or scarf sets

Roost DTail doesn't rly need a spinner. Both sets shine on Custap offense but idk how good it'd be to be locked into DTail (as in CB KyuB); it forces you to take more and more hazard damage since your forced out.

 

[Yuttt]

The defensive phazer cube really likes having pokemon that lure things like Rotom-W and Jolteon for it to set up a sub on. It doesn't need a spinner, and I usually find spinners too niche to warrant a spot. A spinblocker, however, can be really nice, as then when you phaze a spinner in, it can't just spin and rob you of all entry hazards.
And yeah, a choice band Dtail doesn't sound very fun, especially if they get a pokemon who can easily KO it. I think the advantages of a more defensive set with sub and roost is that you can phaze out the checks with Dtail as they break your sub, forcing them to take even more damage. Thinks like Teriyaki won't like taking SR+Spikes twice and a Dtail. Then if you get a pokemon you can get a sub up on, you can repeat. I'll see if I have any leftover replays of it happening. It might feature pretty horrible players, though.

 

[BKC]

I would use Hasty on Skarm with 0 IVs in both defenses, it helps you get down to Custap range more easily.

Tentacruel in rain seems like a complete nightmare to face, btw.

 

[Yuttt]

The thing is, you can still get a sub up on Rotom-W and Jolteon for free, although at the cost of 25% health. I guess substitute just eases prediction for sucky players like me ;_;
But I think your set plays a rather different role than the SubRoostDtail set. It seems like a mixed attacker with roost and Dtail, and aims to break stuff, and utilize entry hazards by doing awesome predictions. It is a bulky set, though, which is kind of interesting. The difference is mainly that it can do more stuff than just phaze and be bulky. It actually has coverage to hit things like skarm, which walls the set of Sub/Roost/Hone Claws/Dragon tail, and can roost or set up hazards while you phaze. It gives less free turns to the opponent.
On a side note, Thunder on Gengar is brilliant. I should try that.

 

[Haaku.]

The sad thing is that the one little advantage Kyu-W has over Kyu-B is the movepool. 95 speed? Not an excuse, Kyu-W has the same speed. SR weakness? Not an excuse, Kyu-W also has a SR weakness. Bad typing? Not an excuse, Kyu-W has the same typing.

I don't mean to just jump on this "ban kyu-b" bandwagon but it's too much for OU to handle.

Its got a bad physical movepool. That is true. But you can go mixed!!!!! Kyurem Black has a special attack stat of 120, which is MORE than usable. Here's a list of Kyu-B's physical movepool:
- Fusion Bolt
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Tail
- Facade
- Frustration
- Iron Head
- Payback
- Return
- Rock Slide
- Shadow Claw
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt
- Cut
- Fling
- Fly
- Freeze Shock
- Giga Impact
- Rock Smash
- Rock Tomb
- Slash
- Strenght

As you can see, this is more than enough to work with. I'm not saying it's GOOD, I'm just saying its usable. Here's the set I like to use.

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Trait: Teravolt
Lonely Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail

The one thing you'd notice with this set is Dragon Tail. It's like Roar, but can't be taunted. You'd be surprised how hard this thing hits with that.

Outrage is your primary STAB.

Fusion Bolt is generally a filler move that yet offers great coverage.

Ice Beam is your ice type STAB.

So, in short, I think that Kyurem-Black should be banned from OU.

 

[blitzlefan]

Inferstrain is that your entire argument? Kyurem-B can go mixed and has a usable movepool?

 

[youngjake93]

It's not "good", but it is usable. Ban it.
Wait, what?

 

[Celever]

While 120 special attack is usable it's not broken... Latios has better Special Attack, Speed and coverage than Kyurem-B. The saving grace of Kyurem-B is it's decent at best movepool to use with the high attack.

Also let's correct your list:

- Fusion Bolt
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Tail
- Facade Let's use a move that is usually weaker on the off-chance something tries to burn me at some point!
- Frustration SAME THING AS RETURN
- Iron Head Steel-Type offensively is horrible.
- Payback Weak and Kyurem-B is too fast to make use of double damage
- Return
- Rock Slide
- Shadow Claw
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt
- Cut Uhhh.... while legendaries make good HM slaves...
- Fling Potential low base power and loss of item
- Fly Opponent can switch in and counter the Flying-Type with a resist
- Freeze Shock LETS USE A 140 BASE POWER ATTACK AND WASTE A TURN!!!!
- Giga Impact LETS USE A 150 BASE POWER ATTACK AND WASTE A TURN!!!!!!
- Rock Smash Um... Rock Smash?
- Rock Tomb Weaker than Rock Slide you wouldn't use it
- Slash Weaker than Return you wouldn't use it
- Strenght Weaker than Return you wouldn't use it

9 usable moves, most of which give mostly redundant coverage so you don't need many of them on a set. Return is only not crossed out because a possible Choice set could be used and it could be ok late-game but probably not. Shadow Claw and Zen Headbutt on the same set are extremely redundant, and you don't want to use Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail and Outrage on the same set. Let's see what that leaves us:
Fusion Bolt
Outrage / Dragon Claw / Dragon Tail
Return (but probably not)
Rock Slide / Stone Edge
Zen Headbutt / Shadow Claw

.___.

 

[Shurtugal]

KyuB with Babiri / Chople Berry is amazing on SmashPass (HP Fire / Fusion Bolt / Ice Beam / Earth Power w| 252 Hp and hitting 270 spe is just goddamn amazing). I know that doesn't make it broken / not broken, but I thought I'd share.

 

[Celever]

Due to having such a barren movepool Kyurem-B must also spread his EVs around so that moves aren't wasted on the sets, which significantly hurts Speed/Offense presence or even bulk. Additionally, you can find out which set he is by him using one attack most of the time, with the only difficulty being separating Choice Band, Choice Scarf and against worse players the sub+3 attacks. It may have lots of sets on it's analysis but how many are broken? Which sets would you use in ubers without a fear? Well looking at the ubers analysis it shares two, the Choice Band and Choice Scarf sets, and that seems rather appropriate to me. Some of the sets can be done better by something else, such as the shuffler. Kyurem-B has rather average bulk too, so I can't see how it can be viable as such. Then you have the 90 base speed, leaving it susceptible to revenge-killing. This is another major flaw in an otherwise good Pokemon. It has rather mediocre coverage offensively and defensively, and it's A rank shows this. You're acting like we are saying Kyurem-B should be UU or something, there is no doubt it is a brilliant Pokemon in OU but there should be no doubt it is not worth going to Ubers.

Also what? Terrakion is also a good sweeper after a Swords Dance and speed boosts. My fucking sub-punch Dusknoir swept after a Swords Dance and some speed boosts.

 

[AWailOfATail]

This entire post had better be sarcasm.

Well, on the Ninjask part, yeah, a bit. You're right; so many pokes wreck under those conditions. (And yet Ninjask's still NU...)

Fairies will become a part of gameplay, but you're right, they aren't here yet. But Iron Head is worth mentioning. It does counter some Rock types, and relieves a weakness. And after all, after Pure Power, Medicham has almost the same maximum Attack. So why is it RU? Brute force isn't everything.