Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?

[ElectivireRocks]

Did you miss the part where Kyu-B has water, electric and grass resistances and can switch with impunity against the likes of Politoed, Jolteon, Starmie and Celebi? It has to be wary of random Scald burns, but so does everything without a water immunity because Scald is a stupidly OP move.
Even though it's neutral to ice, HP Ice from anything fails to break its Sub (in fact, even Starmie's Ice Beam fails to break it without LO - not that Starmie would stay on Kyu-B anyway) and the omnipresent rain acts as a pseudo-fire resist.

Many of its sets emphatize its special bulk because other than the extremely predictable Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and the unreliable Focus Blast it lacks exploitable special weaknesses.
Kyu-B has plenty of chances to come in and wreak havoc.

Funny fact: Kyu-B's main niche in ubers is its trademark specially defensive Scarf set. Yes, you read it right. It sounds incredibly stupid, but it works remarkably well and it even has an analysis on this site. I wonder if it could work in OU as well.

 

[Gary]

How is Kyurem-B amazing in weatherless again? Weatherless absolutely needs great resistances, or good bulk without common weaknesses to switch into dangerous threats, and Kyurem-B has none of this. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not switching into almost anything common that can boost up in OU, the only thing I can think of is Gyarados without Stone Edge. It can't switch into common pokemon found on rain teams, the Sub set absolutely hates switching into Scalds and Toxics, it's not switching into offensive Toxicroak at all, forget switching into Dragonite or Breloom, and Tornadus 2HKOs with hurricane on the switch or OHKO it with Focus Blast after rocks. Even on sun teams it has to be careful, since it can only really Sub down on a slow Ninetales, Xatu, or Forretress after Gyro ball is stalled out.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its uses in weatherless, but I usually run weatherless, and I know I'd rather have something that can actually switch into common stuff.

Sure, Kyurem-B is weak to common typing, but it also makes up for it with three incredibly useful resistances; Water, Electric, and Grass. You can't say a weatherless wouldn't enjoy those resistances, because those resistances are key against rain and sun teams. Kyurem-B isn't that useful on weatherless teams? Please. It gives weatherless teams something to fuck up two incredibly dominant weathers.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

With that line of logic any physical attacker is a liability for weatherless teams. At least Kyu-B's water resistance actually discourages the opponent from mindlessly spamming Scald - you certainly can't say the same for the likes of Terrakion.
You know what else weatherless teams need? Being able to break down defensive cores commonly found in weather teams which often include pokemon such as Heatran, Jellicent and Celebi.
Kyu-B excels at doing so, and for that reason it's a valuable addition to such teams.

 

[peng]

Since you didn't go through the trouble of giving any real reason to back up your claims, let me do the same (partially):
1) Wrong
2) I am arguing that it brings more positives than negatives, which means it is not broken. Not all Pokemon are as easy to spot and going with the logic ''shit is too strong'' or whatever doesn't always work so sometimes you have to weight the pros and cons of a poke in the meta to see if it's worth keeping.

Can you explain again what are the positives of Kyurem-B in OU? This seems to be an argument that the pro-OU side uses a lot and I can't understand it at all. In your previous post you implied that the benefits of Kyurem-B in OU were its effectiveness vs Rain and Sun meaning that these playstyles are somewhat handleable for weatherless teams (correct me if I have misinterpreted here but this is what I understood from your post on page 1). I'd argue that this is not as big a benefit as you make out:

1. Kyurem-B is not as good vs Rain as you make out. The fact that Rain is still popular and consistent is a testament to this. If you claim that Kyurem-B's main positive effect on the metagame is that its good vs Rain, surely you are implying that people are avoiding using Rain specifically because Kyurem-B is around, and I can assure you this isn't the case. Fact of the matter is, whilst Kyurem-B is "good" vs Rain, its simply not good enough against it for it to actually have any influence on whether Rain itself is good or not. Rain is still a very, very good playstyle in a meta with Kyurem-B, so clearly this isn't really a "positive effect on the metagame" at all. This is hard to phrase but the point I'm trying to make out is: why are we are actively keeping a potentially "broken" Pokemon in OU because it apparently keeps Rain in check, when usage stats and tournament usage shows its not even doing a good job at that anyway?
2. Weatherless teams have always had access to Pokemon that can handle these playstyles. Most dragons do a half-decent job of at least putting pressure on opposing weather offense, and stuff like CM Latias is an excellent win condition vs Sun. You have access to stuff like Kingdra who ggs Rain as soon as Ferro is a little weakened. Well-played Volcarona and Scarf Heatran are very good vs Sun too. Or, you know, unless you are just using weatherless teams for the sake of it, there are these cool Pokemon called Tyranitar and Hippowdon (and Abomasnow) that do an okay job of keeping these playstyles in check. Just because some people are adamant not to use Tyranitar doesn't mean we should keep around potentially broken threats to help promote weatherless teams in OU, especially when there are other (arguably better) options for weatherless teams to use to help with their rain / sun match-up.
3. Regardless of whether Kyurem-B has a posititive influence or not, keeping Pokemon X in OU to keep playstyle Y in check is flat-out not a viable justification to keep X in the tier.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Just because Deo-S and Deo-D have one thing in common with Kyu-B (help weatherless teams in some way) means that it's the same situation? This is absurd.

Yes it is absurd, hence the name ad absurdum. You completely skipped the main points of the post and targeted a statement made just to show how silly the idea of Kyu-B boosting weatherless is.

As for the stall argument between you and BKC, it is definitely in favor of the offense. You didn't like the idea of him bringing up more sets but when you're looking in team preview you aren't going to know which Kyurem set youre facing. SpD Jirachi is the only Pokemon listed that really works against multiple sets and that can be taken advantage of.

Sure, Kyurem-B is weak to common typing, but it also makes up for it with three incredibly useful resistances; Water, Electric, and Grass. You can't say a weatherless wouldn't enjoy those resistances, because those resistances are key against rain and sun teams. Kyurem-B isn't that useful on weatherless teams? Please. It gives weatherless teams something to fuck up two incredibly dominant weathers.

Ya know what else appreciates these resistances? EVERYTHING. Sure it's helpful for weatherless teams but you can easily slap Kyurem-B on Rain, Sand, or even Sun and keep these resistances while having the benefit of a weather.

I don't see why this discussion is so focused on the idea of a weatherless buff, most of the time (and by that I mean a good 95%) weatherless is just going to be inferior to weather teams. Sand isn't used in the same way Rain/Sun are, it only has one abuser and is commonly used for the sole reason of stopping over weathers. Hippo and Ttar are easy mons to stick onto teams and putting them on your weatherless team instantly makes it so much better. Again, I hardly call this a benefit for Kyurem-B's presence.

 

[Wizarus]

With that line of logic any physical attacker is a liability for weatherless teams. At least Kyu-B's water resistance actually discourages the opponent from mindlessly spamming Scald - you certainly can't say the same for the likes of Terrakion.
You know what else weatherless teams need? Being able to break down defensive cores commonly found in weather teams which often include pokemon such as Heatran, Jellicent and Celebi.
Kyu-B excels at doing so, and for that reason it's a valuable addition to such teams.

I'm not seeing how you got physical attackers being a liability from my post. I said the inability to check one common boosting pokemon is a liability for weatherless teams. Yes, Kyurem-B can break down walls and switch into some pokemon found in rain and sun, but other pokemon can do this as well, while still maintaining the ability to check threats.

 

[ErraticMagic]

I'm not certain if Kyurem-B is broken, but I'm definitely leaning more towards banning it. It's pretty disruptive to defensive teams and doesn't have the most reliable checks either. Also I don't really see how the fact that it checks rain is really that much of a benefit. How can removing one check to it be that bad when there's already many other pokemon that are meant to check/counter rain? Honestly if one or two pokemon stand between something being threatening and something being overpowering, it probably has to go. I'm not entirely convinced that Kyurem-B is like that and I don't want to make any arguments about rain.

 

[yee]

I'd like to get my thoughts out in one post, so I'll start by saying we always knew there were two possible paths to create a "balanced" BW2, whether or not we decided to ban a weather or two we knew Lando / Keld / maybe Kyu-B needed to be looked at if we were going to use a full spectrum of defense and offense in metagame. We possibly saved a couple dragons by keeping rain, but unlike Hydreigon this one is ridiculously good at wallbreaking with or without rain.

For the record I'd prefer we focus more on whether or not we ban Keldeo because it's the next suspect, but in the meantime I'd like you guys to try out more mix Kyu-B and even straight up Choice Band. Saying CB Kyu is not brutally discouraging the full spectrum is nothing short of misinformed. There's no tanking it and getting an even situation if you have anything slower than it; traditional tank mons like Hippo / Tangrowth / Slowbro / Lando / SpD Rachi etc. just get run over, and then there's the Magnezone-bait category of mons which don't even win if they come into an Outrage like Forry and Ferro. Only Skarm will be an advantageous switch in that completely isolated situation.

This is where I end "what doesn't beat it" and ask you to try CB against some slower teams. Those facts mean nothing unless you see how easy it is to abuse them despite them "playing around it" or "limiting to one kill" when you're using a mon tankier than Gen 4 Metagross and more powerful on average than Specs Keldeo. If it weren't for the Ice-typing and speed (when did 95 become "slow") or the lack of an Ice-STAB even this would've been off the table to drop, and if we're going to keep it now it will need to be because something that sounds ridiculous now like "6 pokemon faster than Kyu-B stall" becomes good or Terrakion + Breloom + Scizor (TotalBS) teams become all of the teams and let us turn the suddenly uncommon by user self-interest Kyu-B into a distant threat; one that can be written off as bannable like DragonSpam in the Excadrill meta when Excadrill owned them and happened to be huge at the time and good on defense even if that was rare. Right now we see Custap Skarm trend to get a good situation out of a team that runs Kyu-B as the normal lead even if they have a Mag.

The Keldeo test and more specifically seeing if Kyu-B jumps in the event Keld is banned will likely give us the time and information we need to make a more convincing final choice than we did with Lando IMO. As someone who has dug into every little detail of BW stall and who thinks TBS teams being half of the metagame would be a bad meta I don't think it's realistic that Kyu-B owns a place in a balanced meta.

 

[Nysyr]

Dragonite does choice band far better than Kyu-B does, and scares me 10x more since I know I can just force Kyu-B to outrage and then revenge it. Dragonite has +2 priority and the ability to sponge SE hits if multiscale is intact. Steel and fighting are awful things to be weak to, especially since most teams probably carry a priority user that has them.

2hkos resists? So? How many teams carry a resist that can switch into Banded terrakion (who doesn't get locked into outrage btw) and live the 2hko?

I'm really getting annoyed at stall players complaining about Kyu-B, when they basically prey off of balance teams that can't break thru the defensive cores. You chose a playstyle that focuses on not preparing for offensive threats, and instead focuses on hazard stacking and residual damage. Sure you can try to make the team able to switch into everything, but none of your pokes are able to kill the offensive threats and instead you try to force the switch or let weather/toxic/burn rack up. We shouldn't try to save a playstyle if it really comes down to it, simply we don't balance around them. Do you see us balancing to save trick room (it is good done right don't get me wrong) because it has trouble with balance teams? No, we don't.

If the stall playstyle dies a horrible death, so be it.

Insert "yada yada you don't play stall" comments.

FYI I am neither pro ban or anti ban, I simply dislike the playstle arguments.

 

[Gary]

Of course Kyurem-B is broken, kind of annoyed that this discussion exists, but I mean as Yee said it fucks over anything slower. It doesn't kill stall but the damage it can do to slow teams is pretty ridiculous, and I still think defense should have a place in Gen 5. Also I don't agree with any logic of it being 'underwhelming' in a suspect test with a. teams that would obviously be preparing for it with Ferrothorn and Scizor [even though it lives CB Scizor bullet punch lol!] and b. a faster meta with tornadus-t, genesect, a lot less stall teams in general.



If it's broken then it's broken. Just because it helps out weatherless teams isn't a reason to keep it in OU. If we brought Arceus down to OU with a clause that he could only be used without weather, it would still be a broken Pokemon, even if it helps out a weaker playstyle and the fact that it is broken supercedes any good it might do for OU.

What's wrong with asking the community about Kyurem-B? It's obvious that the community seems pretty split on Kyurem-B being broken or not, and just because you think it's obviously broken, doesn't mean that others will think the same.

If the Mods think that this thread should be removed because of the ass discussion that this is creating, then so be it. The arguments are getting a bit repetitive anyway, and the discussion is going nowhere. I just wanted to ask a simple question to see how split the community was on how broken or not broken Kyurem-B is, but if the mods think that it's inappropriate to discuss this, then by all means take this down. I wasn't trying to convince the OU council to suspect Kyurem-B or anything. Whatever.

 

[Aldaron]

Gary, I actually think your posts have been fine and the people responding to you and this thread in bad taste are walking a very fine line between Aldaron not caring enough to hit the infract button and Aldaron hitting the infract button.

I don't mind this discussion existing, because I support the community weighing in on concerns, but let's get one thing straight: why Kyurem-B was dropped is utterly irrelevant, and the next time I see someone whining about why it was dropped or asking why in this thread I will swiftly delete and possibly infract for irrelevant posting.

This thread is about discussing whether or not Kyurem-B should be suspected, not whining about why it was dropped in the first place.

Also honus, shut the fuck up lol. After doing so, watch yourself. You don't get to absolutely state something is broken and then whine about a clear result that doesn't go along with your and your friends' personal beliefs. Guess what? A suspect test with qualified voters voted it overwhelmingly OU...and if you don't feel that test is credible, then the only alternative, a council vote, will also vote it overwhelmingly OU, as I know for a fact Aldaron, Bloo, Iconic, Haunter (not sure where Jabba stands) will vote it OU atm.

So please, either _shut the fuck up_, or try and convince us why it should be suspected.

 

[G-Von]

Well that escalated quickly....

Anyway I have always wondered why Cube was allowed in OU and still believe it should be suspected. With the second highest BST, it boasts one of the highest attacks in the game plus its Dragon-STAB is resisted by only steel, and is super bulky to the point that SE STAB attacks from threats have a tough time killing it. Its flaws like its typing is off-set by the sheer bulk that has been bestowed upon Cube and its minor physical movepool is relieved by its overpowering base attack. Oh, and this thing can go mixed since it does have a base 120 special attack. To anyone who wants to argue that BST=/=broken because of pokes like Regigigas and Slaking, Kyu-b has one of the best abilities in the game. It literally has everything it needs to be a menace and unhealthy for the OU metagame and I feel it has done enough in practice to prove that.

 

[MikeDawg]

Gary, I actually think your posts have been fine and the people responding to you and this thread in bad taste are walking a very fine line between Aldaron not caring enough to hit the infract button and Aldaron hitting the infract button.

I don't mind this discussion existing, because I support the community weighing in on concerns, but let's get one thing straight: why Kyurem-B was dropped is utterly irrelevant, and the next time I see someone whining about why it was dropped or asking why in this thread I will swiftly delete and possibly infract for irrelevant posting.

This thread is about discussing whether or not Kyurem-B should be suspected, not whining about why it was dropped in the first place.

Also honus, shut the fuck up lol. After doing so, watch yourself. You don't get to absolutely state something is broken and then whine about a clear result that doesn't go along with your and your friends' personal beliefs. Guess what? A suspect test with qualified voters voted it overwhelmingly OU...and if you don't feel that test is credible, then the only alternative, a council vote, will also vote it overwhelmingly OU, as I know for a fact Aldaron, Bloo, Iconic, Haunter (not sure where Jabba stands) will vote it OU atm.

So please, either _shut the fuck up_, or try and convince us why it should be suspected.

Would you be opposed to sharing your/council views as to why Kyurem is currently not broken? With such a large community backing for the banning of it, having proper justification from the opposite side, especially from some of the most credible ou players would be interesting at worst.

 

[Aldaron]

Such a large community? On what basis are you making that claim?

I see people talking about it. Tell me where the "large community" is...

I've never understood why a particular loud minority (which happens to usually always support some ban) always demands the leadership justify their position...as though the requirement for justification is on the side keeping the status quo.


It isn't...the necessity of justification is entirely on the side changing the status quo.

That said, I don't believe Kyurem-B is broken because I don't believe it actually destroys a playstyle. We have 3 major playstyles: offense, balance, stall. Weather / weatherless are subsets within each of the 3 playstyles (for example, rain offense, sand balance, sun stall). The only "playstyle" Kyurem-B actively screws over is NOT stall but actually PURELY PASSIVE stall...namely the type of stall that focuses entirely on passive damage. It does NOT screw over stall overall...as stall simply has to adapt a bit to deal with it. Yes, that means potentially going with a 2nd or 3rd steel (is that really that rare on stall?), or use one offensive mon with SE priority (Breloom), or whatever. "Screwing over" a subset of a style while being very meh against most of the subsets of the two other major playstyles is a very strong warning flag for me when it comes to suspect status. Sure, PURELY PASSIVE stall is screwed over...other stall is not. Offense and Balance are not...Again, sure, I'll agree that is probably in our best interest to keep the three major playstyles viable OVERALL, but it is NOT our duty to ensure every particular subset is kept viable as well.

Yes, I'm aware the pro ban side can just flood these arguments with tl;dr about blah blah, but I've been observing WCoP very closely, and considering this is a tournament that gives us a huge batch of high level OU matches (it is all OU, all by people handpicked to play), I think it is a decent dataset to consider alongside the ladder.

Kyurem-B kills stall? I've seen plenty of stall in WCoP...in fact, I saw Reyscarface own akhimarth using stall...and akhimarth was using Kyurem-B (and a very anti stall team). I'll wait until the end of WCoP to provide some confirmation stats (thank you to Ciele for being a champ and keeping all the logs), but I'll tell you right now, in the two areas where we analyze Pokemon, ladder for its bulk and tournaments for its quality...the stats don't point to a NECESSITY for a test. But again, we'll see.

In fact, this transitions into an important point...just because something puts you at a disadvantage does NOT mean it is absolutely beating you. There has to be some consideration regarding player skill...if a good player with a disadvantage can use his skill to overcome that disadvantage, is the element that provided the disadvantage really broken? Or do we all just have too much time on our hands and an irritating desire to whine about everything we don't agree with? We've had a pretty weak stomach for things putting us at disadvantages in this community's history...look at Latias / Mence bans in DPP for example...and we should only consider ban if a particular element ABSOLUTELY puts you at a disadvantage.

Honestly, this is the only competitive community I've seen that whines all day about literal 50/50 suspects (yes, Landorus-I was a 50/50 suspect) and doesn't simply expect to play with certain advantages and disadvantages. I assure you, that for as long as I am on council, none of you spouting your absolutist propaganda will get what you want. You might get what you want via the process, as in convincing us to test, and then having the voters vote something in or out, but I'll literally never allow your extremism to influence whether or not we suspect something. So you might as well stop with the nonsense...hopefully anyway. Not that I actually expect anything.

So once again, CONVINCE the 4 currently extremely skeptical OU council members that a Kyurem-B test is NECESSARY, not because you don't like it, not because it "wrecks" a particular subset of a style you like...but because it is actually broken.

Have an absolutely peachy day ^_^

 

[ElectivireRocks]

The broken part about Kyu-B is not that it guarantees at least a kill per match, it's that it takes no skill to do so. If your opponent has Politoed, Starmie, Celebi, Hippowdown, Gliscor or one of the many, many pokemon that can't even scratch Kyu-B, you got at least a guaranteed kill right from team preview.
Nothing else in OU really compares - Dragonite absolutely needs to abuse Multiscale to be effective and not outclassed by all the other dragons in OU, all the weather abusers need their weather up, and all the other dragons need to pick their move carefully if the opponent has both a steel type and a bulky water type, while Kyu-B has enough juice to beat most of the former and outright laughs at the latter.

One may argue that this logic can be applied to anything with favorable matchups, but as someone mentioned earlier, whenever you have something slower than Kyu-B out, it can "pseudo-trap" you thanks to its monstrous offensive potential and force you to lose your current pokemon or lose whatever you try to switch in against it.
A well played Kyu-B will "trap" you each time you have something slower out (re: virtually every support 'mon in OU), heavily punishing balanced teams and outright destroying stall teams.
Kyu-B's modus operandi is very different from the previously banned offensive threats such as Tornadus-T and Genesect, but it doesn't change that its mere presence heavily restrics the opponent's choices, something that isn't healthy in any metagame.

 

[Pocket]

Obviously, Aldaron knows what's up.

700 BST =/= auto-suspect.

The only Kyu-B sets that can break through stall are CB and LO + 4 Atks - every other set can be dealt by stall comfortably without dancing around too much. CB set is heavily prediction reliant; both sets are easily worn out by hazards. Most good stall teams that aren't simply comprised of 6 passive punching bags usually have a faster Pokemon like Latias or Scarf Tar to finish it off.

And then we have the REST of the metagame that honestly does not care for Kyurem-B. You have plenty of >95 base Speed mons that can force out Kyurem-B, not to mention priority Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. SR weakness means its "too good" bulk is compromised after a switch or two, and it falls prey to faster Dragon and Fighting types that run rampant in this tier.

We can drop literally any pokemon into OU and let the meta centralize around them to the point where they will rest comfortably at the top of the viability rankings but still be "managable," but that is completely skewing our view as to what is and isn't overpowered.

That's the thing - dropping Kyurem-B had very little effect on our metagame. Kyurem-B's influence / centralizing force over this metagame is very minimal - most teams made before the drop functions exactly the same with or without Kyurem-B in the picture. This is why Kyurem-B has been voted OU.

I am not saying that Kyurem-B is terrible, because it's in fact a very good Pokemon that even competitive players use in their teams. But very good =/= broken, and that's where people are falling short in their ban justifications. Until somebody can demonstrate how the metagame revolves around Kyurem-B to an unhealthy degree or how it takes away skill out of the game (ie Wobbuffet in DPP / Gothitelle in BW UU), no one will be convincing neutral parties about Kyu-B's brokenness

GINGANINJA EDIT

Iv cleaned up this thread a little bit, I will start handing out infractions for stupidly retarded posts and the like. Consider this a final warning to all that I have zero tolerance left.

Do have a nice day!

 

[Alfalfa]

The broken part about Kyu-B is not that it guarantees at least a kill per match, it's that it takes no skill to do so. If your opponent has Politoed, Starmie, Celebi, Hippowdown, Gliscor or one of the many, many pokemon that can't even scratch Kyu-B, you got at least a guaranteed kill right from team preview.

The same thing applied to DeoD. It was just easy to spam Stealth Rock + Spikes, and watch the guaranteed results. Same thing with Drizzle Swim: you needed 500 tactics to handle it, but only needed to spam & click to use Drizzle + Swift Swim.

 

[Gary]

Thank you Aldaron for that great explanation! Like he said guys, please try to keep the arguments focused on Kyurem-B possibly getting a suspect test, and why you he's broken enough to get one. Don't stray off into talking about Keldeo please. Thanks.

 

[Plastic Moose]

I would like to say that not all of Cube's sets pressure stall that much. Only a very well played CB Cube can really pressure stall, and smart switching + hazards can quickly wear him out. The Sub sets often don't have enough coverage to really put pain on good stall teams, and the Life Orb mixed attacker set, while strong, is worn down quickly, courtesy of hazards and LO.

It's a good pokemon, but a good stall team used by a good player can, quite capably, keep Cube at bay

 

[Nachos]

I don't see how Kyurem-B is coming close to being a Suspect at this point. Looking back at past suspects, Landorus, Tornadus-T, Genesect, even Keldeo, these are all pokemon that have had a significant effect on the metagame. When you built your team, they were Pokemon which you had in mind when you started, because they're all scary as hell. I'm not seeing that with Kyurem-B. When I build a team, or I'm given one, Kyu-B is not the first weakness I'm looking out for, or one that I'm desperately trying to patch up. I subconsciously associate it with the other dragons which are actually big threats (especially Dragonite and Latios if I'm using rain).

Now, sub is the best set and yet I'm not seeing it having a big presence on the metagame similar to the mons I brought up before. Going by the WCoP games I've seen, and I've seen around 70% of them, I've seen hardly any players use Kyurem-B, let alone the sub set. I just don't see how this even comes close, considering when we compare that to Landorus, which has a 57% uber vote, had a big effect on the metagame and was in a hella lot of teams until it was banned.

Kyurem-B isn't worrying 95% of people in the teambuilder, and that's all that really needs to be said.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

The broken part about Kyu-B is not that it guarantees at least a kill per match, it's that it takes no skill to do so.

I normally don't mix in with this kind of discussion, mostly because what I say is either ramble or useless, anyway. I'm sorry, but this sentence does not make sense at all. What is the essence of skill exactly? In the end, all we do is choose one of five options every turn and 'hope for the best', does that sound skilful to you? Kyu-B may be overly powerful with it's Attack, and in somewhat lesser extend it's special attack stat, it may be a pokémon that is simply 'choose A to kill B'. With A being 'outrage' and B being half of OU. But is Kyu-B the only one? Far from to be honest. The difference being that Kyu-B does it a little tiny bit different, and honestly not as good... The 'Choose A to kill B' method of Kyu-B only really applies to the CB set, which leaves a lot to be desired: sure it can kill something, but it's slow(er) than most things that can deal with it, locks itself in and can even give the opponent momentum. The Scarf set may make the 'stupidly OP Kyu-B' faster, but honestly makes it even easier to deal with, as tends to be the case with most scarfers, as it lacks the 'Choose A to kill B' that it has with the CB set. Now the Mix-attacker/Sub set, those are sets to watch out for as they can actually come as a suprise to the opponent. But those actually require skill to use, shocking I know.

Back to my statement that Kyu-B is far from the only 'choose A to kill B', he just isn't. A lot of pokémon in Gen5 have gotten the ability to do so, not necessarily 'kill' as much as 'cripple', which in the end is the same, sometimes a kill is even better than a cripple, anyway. Seeing as it gives a free-switch.

Other pokémon that can do the 'do A to x B':
-Breloom: 'use Spore to cripple B'
-Terrakion 'use CC/SE to cripple/kill B'
-MLP Keldeo 'use Hydropump in rain to kill B'
-Politoed 'use Hydropump in rain to kill/cripple B'
-Prankster user: 'use status-move to cripple B'

Just some examples from the top of my head, but they are true. (Also, if something doesn't take skill to use, it's rain offense tbh)

Kyu-B has few, useful but few, resistances and fairly common weaknesses. Sure all but one of those types that Kyu-B resists or is weak to are common, but that is what defines Kyu-B. Water and Electric are common in OU, especially with rain, whilst grass is 'common enough' in general. Meanwhile, Kyu-B is weak to Dragon, ROCK, Fighting and Steel. All of whom are common in the OU meta, most importantly being the weakness to SR of course. These weaknesses, along with it's reasonable speed (I refuse to say slow, I mained NU for a while) makes Kyu-B fairly easy to deal with, also don't say something like 'Kyu-B can survive a BP from max Attack Scizor/Breloom/Hurrdurrmurr because Kyu-B will, 9/10 times, lose 25% of it's health once it switches in, and it'll only be less if also factor in it's own LO if it runs it and potential SS damage.

I agree that Kyu-B destroys full stall/passive stall, but honestly it had been insulted, lynched, crussified, kicked in the balls, drowned, hanged, burned at the stake and burried a long time ago already. There's is no reason to bring up that Kyu-B ruins one of the many team-orientations if said orientation was already dead to begin with.

It may sound stupid, but I feel that a lot of people don't even 'prepare' for Kyu-B, the meta does not resolve around Kyu-B because Kyu-B is not worth the effort: it is simply overshadowed by other dragons who bring more to the table other than raw power and not having a 4x weakness against Ice. Honestly I also feel people are using Kyu-B wrong, it just never is the threat it is made up to be, in my experience anyway.

This may sound cheesy but people that claim Kyu-B are doing something wrong in general, something that isn't Kyu-B's fault, but Kyu-B does make it obvious. If you claim Kyu-B is too fast to deal with defensively, then why for godssake are you not running a faster pokémon, the metagame already favors speed so not a lot is 'lost', and if that isn't enough there's always Reuniclus with TR. Want to know what pokémon was really broken back in the day? Salamence in Gen4, that guy was unpredictable due to his versality and not even your steels were safe back then. Kyu-B is such a poor predictable rock that it brings nothing actually new to the table, other than that Skarmory is suddenly not it's biggest wall to take care of anymore.

I've said it before in the few useful posts that I make, but I'll say it again: this Gen 'regular' players have become lazy and resort to the normal things to deal with the normal threats, guess what? Thinking outside of the box, heck just picking an unusual pokémon from UU, can be enough to work out. I just recently started running Prankster Liepard that focuses on crippling opposing pokemon and it does it's job the way it's intended because nobody knows how to deal with it: is Liepard broken? Fuck no. I've ran P2 sometime ago, and when it survived an outrage from a Salamence, my opponent admitted he was suprised that P2 could survive that. Is it weird P2 can survive that? Fuck no. But people simply don't realise something like that anymore, 'the people' are losing 'gamesense' in what works and doesn't, what's good and what's bad, what's actually works and what is just the easy way out.

The difference between Liepard and P2 that I just mentioned, is that Kyu-B is predictable, but people don't know how to deal with it, or don't want to because their super-awesum-special team is already so good that the problem lies with Kyu-B, not themselves. The fact that Kyu-B is so obvious in terms of what it can do, yet so powerful, is honestly not suprising: look at Terrakion or Keldeo. But unlike Terrakion and the MLP, Kyu-B does not have the metagame surround it as much, and as such people don't know how to deal with it.

My apologies for the rambling and nonsense that is within it, but it's normal that I ramble and talk nonsense.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'm indifferent about Kyurem-Black being banned or not, if that were to be a decision. But with that said, I don't find it broken, and I also don't find that its position in OU is detrimental to the OU meta. There are a handful of things that can keep Kyurem-B in check and they are fairly common in the tier, things that would be common even without Kyurem-B's existence there (Scizor has been super high in usage for ages, for instance). Things like Jirachi, and really Steels in general for the most part, provide a general check to it. It's weak to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, and also SR. Its Fighting weakness is a significant drawback. I mean, Kyurem-B is something you have to consider facing when building an OU team, sure, but the same can be said about many threatening mons for various reasons. A lot of people find its base stat total attractive (and of course, that massive Attack!), but it certainly has its weak points that balance it out in a way that I do not find to be intolerable.

I've never been just totally overpowered by Kyurem-B. It might get a kill or two, but its weak points can be nailed rather easily once you've sacrificed something to secure an opening to do so. Conservative and smart play often makes Kyurem-Black out as just a weird bully who is only tough if you happen to have nothing out of everything that it's weak to, and I don't think excuses could be made for losing to it at that point.

 

[Gary]

I completely agree with what Zandgaiax said. Just like every other Pokemon in OU, Kyurem-B isn't one of the those Pokemon that you can slap on every team and expect to win every match. To tell you the truth, there are better Pokemon in OU that you could stick on all of your teams and possibly win you battles more often then Kyurem-B. My point is, Kyurem-B doesn't take 0 skill to use. It's incredibly powerful, versatile, and dangerous, but that doesn't make it easy to use. If a player wants to win with Kyurem-B, they can't just lead with it first turn and expect to win just by spamming Outrage. Pretty much any good player has at least 1-2 or more things on their team that can properly handle Kyurem-B in some way, whether it's a counter, check, priority, etc. Each Kyurem-B set requires some form of prediction, team support, hazards, etc. The Substitute set requires prediction, the Banded set needs Scizor, Breloom, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Keldeo out of the way before it can even think about sweeping teams. The same goes with the Scarf set. To tell you the truth, I've rarely ever gotten swept by Kyurem-B alone. The only times I've gotten swept by Kyurem-B was after the opponent managed to kill off my spinner, get up hazards, and KO all of my checks to it. Sure, Cube proceeded to mop the floor with me afterwards, but it didn't come easy. Just like any other OU Pokemon, Kyurem-B requires team support and skill to use. If Kyurem-B truly required no skill to use, then it would be used a LOT more often then it is now. There's a reason why you don't see Kyurem-B on every new OU player's team. They expect to win by spamming Outrage, but it doesn't work for them, so they stop using it and switch to something else. A Pokemon that requires no skill to use is a Pokemon that can pretty much be used on every team you make and STILL be successful. I can't ever do that with Kyurem-B. I always need to have some kind of reason to use him.

tl;dr Don't use the "no skill" argument to support your reasoning.

 

[Gary]

When something running its worst set is 100% guaranteed to OHKO or outspeed and 2HKO virtually everything that screams "no skill" in my book.
Of course if the player is skilled they won't just kill something with Kyu-B, they'll devastate entire teams. The SubShuffler set is very hard to play, but can potentially 6-0 entire teams, but CB? Incredibly easy to use, and even easier to get KO's. The mixed and Sub sets aren't really that much harder to use, considering how many chances Kyu-B gets to come in and go to town.

If you disagree with that then this site had better start removing any sentence such as "when in doubt just click Outrage/Draco Meteor", because such statements are actually rather common in analyses, RMTs and various threads when talking about dragon types with massive offensive stats.
So let's not act all high and mighty and pretend that "mindless 120+ BP dragon-type move spam" isn't a thing.

I see what you're saying, but you seem to be arguing about a specific set at this point, not Kyurem-B as a whole. Still, there are a lot of Pokemon in OU that have sets like Kyurem-B's where you can just freely spam a move when nothing else seems reasonable, like CB Terrakion, Specs Latios, Hydreigon, and even Banded Garchomp. Sure it doesn't require a particular set of skills to come in freely and spam an incredibly powerful move, but a Pokemon shouldn't be considered unfair just because there's times where it can use an incredibly powerful move. Don't forget, there really isn't that much in OU that can avoid the KO or 2HKO from Specs Latios, so you could say that Specs Latios is just as easy to use as Banded Kyurem-B. There a lot of times where using Draco Meteor seems alright, and there are a few times where it doesn't seem practical. Even Kyurem-B has those moments, even if it can KO most of the metagame.

Of course, I still think there are other factors that makes Cube itself broken, but I don't think the ease of just spamming Outrage contributes to it being broken IMO, but that's just me. I can see where you're coming from.

 

[lacerta]

When people complain about a pokemon, move, or tactic requiring "no skill", I generally understand this to mean that the thing in question has virtually no downsides to its use, or few enough that it pays off to use it in more situations than not.

Competitive pokemon is about using the right move at the right time, the idea being that a player using a sub-optimal move will be penalised, perhaps by having their pokemon KOd, by having a layer of hazards placed against them, by hitting a resist, or simply by losing momentum. If there are moves with virtually no downside (Scald, U-Turn), then there is no time -- save specific niche situations such as letting NP Celebi come in for free, when the player using this move is penalised for it. Thus the "skill" of using the right move at the right time is not required, as the move can be profitably spammed.

The same thing can be said of certain strategies and pokemon, or in Kyurem-B's case a certain move on its band set. The argument is that (Band) Kyu-B is so strong, with nothing immune to its STAB, that there is virtually no downside to spamming Outrage. While this may seem inaccurate in practice, with resists like Skarmory and Ferrothorn around every corner, the reality is arguable. Absolutely nothing in OU can come in on this one move for free, in that nothing can penalise the user in the ways mentioned above. A healthy Band Kyurem-B has no reliable offensive checks (pokemon that can switch safely into it once, outspeeding and KOing it or forcing it out the next turn), therefore nothing can switch in, outspeed and KO it (unless you get Iron Head flinch hax). In BW and BW2 resists mean shit with things like Keldeo, Darm, and you-know-who still on the loose, with the only resists able to switch into Outrage being defensive checks such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn. However, even Skarmory cannot penalise the Kyurem user by laying hazards in its face, as both it and Ferrothorn are 3HKOd by Outrage -- so if Skarmory doesn't Roost each turn that Kyurem is on the field, after having switched into Outrage, it risks being KOd the subsequent turn.

This is what's meant by "no skill", I think; against any team without a Ferrothorn it is entirely profitable to spam Outrage without reservation. Sure, Kyu-B can be revenge killed, but only after having KOd a pokemon, in which case Outrage has already paid off. Hope that clears things up a little.