Pokémon Kyurem-Black

[Pyritie]

Kyurem-B confuses me. Its a complete monster in what it can do, and is viable in OU (and even ubers with the right team), but nobody seems to be using it. Now its in the lonely place of BL like its base for was last gen. He hits like a freight train, has usable bulk, and outspeeds a lot of important pokemon. Yeah his choice sets are kinda dead with fairies, but I've used his sub sets to great success. Why isn't anybody using him?

My guess is that most people either don't know you can even use him in OU ("oh, he's a box legendary, he must be ubers so I won't even look for him") or assume that because he's an ice type and has almost no physical movepool means he's crap

personally I'd just feel dirty using him

 

[LoDart210]

Yeah. The one thing that sucks is that without outrage, even with 101 hp subs, you can't get passed blobs.

Edit: Another thing I struggle with (through pure inexperience) is which neutral coverage move to use against threats resisting Ice Beam. I think I missed out on a 2HKO on Scizor one time because of it ~_~

Maybe a mixed set with ice beam earth power and rock smash(lol)? Ice ground has really good coverage and you can use rock smash for blissey

0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 567-667 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


At the end of the day, it's rock smash though, and that's an underwhelming third attack, especially because of its limited use.

 

[Strykeypoo]

I will never get how on earth was this thing allowed to stay OU in the last gen and why nearly no one used him.In my opinion the mixed set is still the way:

As much as some people underrate it for being an Ice type and lacking dual physical STAB, there are those here that overrate it as a counter response. Sub three attacks, arguably the best set for it, still needs considerable support to run. Kyurem-B needs to be able to switch in and out to be the biggest threat it can be, which means you want to keep rocks off the field. Even then Kube isn't going to be sweeping, so you've got a dragon taking up a spot on your team that would usually be your mid-late game sweeper (Dragonite/Garchomp/Lati@s).

Criticism aside though, this thing is actually better this gen than it was last gen, and it was already good last gen. Not only has Scizor dropped in usage but Rotom-W is now on every other team, usually running full defense. While Kube can't risk a switch in directly, if you get in on Rotom-W with a clean switch/on a double switch, it guarantees you a free sub. That doesn't sound like such a big deal, but it really, really is.

Wait for the Genesect ban and Kube will really take off

 

[Rotosect]

As much as some people underrate it for being an Ice type and lacking dual physical STAB, there are those here that overrate it as a counter response. Sub three attacks, arguably the best set for it, still needs considerable support to run. Kyurem-B needs to be able to switch in and out to be the biggest threat it can be, which means you want to keep rocks off the field.

I think it's general consensus that hazards removal is no loger seen as "considerable" support in this generation.
Back in gen 5, against skilled players packing a ghost type, spinning was a 50/50 gamble if you were running Starmie and virtually impossible if you were using Tentacruel or Forretress, but this has changed now thanks to Defog.
Gen 6 Spin/Defog support is pretty much comparable to Gen 5's weather support, which was important but it didn't stop several threats from dominating the scene and even get banned.

 

[mertyville]

The dragon nerf helped Kyurem-B in some way. I have seen Sub and 3 Attack set in action and it preformed pretty good compared to the usual Outrage Spammer. With Kyurem's already sky high Attack, one does forget that it has the third highest Spa of all Dragons, outside of Ubers.
I really underestimated it.

 

[RotomPoison]

Maybe a mixed set with ice beam earth power and rock smash(lol)? Ice ground has really good coverage and you can use rock smash for blissey

0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 567-667 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


At the end of the day, it's rock smash though, and that's an underwhelming third attack, especially because of its limited use.

Super effective Rock Smash: 80

Neutral Outrage: 180

Super effective does not equal better or OHKO, also, Rock Smash is completely useless, it doesn't even 2HKO Ferrothorn with Choice Band. Any normal Choice Band Kyurem-B doesn't care about the maybe 5 viable Fairies and can smash anything once they're gone.

As for the OP, Ice Beam is only for a few things that still get OHKOd by Adamant. Also, Freeze Shock is actually a lot better then you think (not saying it's perfect obviously, but the ridiculous amount of power and Ice coverage from it makes Freeze Shock worth it sometimes, actually. Gimmicky, but an option.) Try switching into it. If your opponent has Protect, you switch. (and you should probably know if they do) Also, Freeze Shock OHKOs Ferrothorn.

 

[LoDart210]

Super effective Rock Smash: 80

Neutral Outrage: 180

Super effective does not equal better or OHKO, also, Rock Smash is completely useless, it doesn't even 2HKO Ferrothorn with Choice Band. Any normal Choice Band Kyurem-B doesn't care about the maybe 5 viable Fairies and can smash anything once they're gone.

As for the OP, Ice Beam is only for a few things that still get OHKOd by Adamant. Also, Freeze Shock is actually a lot better then you think (not saying it's perfect obviously, but the ridiculous amount of power and Ice coverage from it makes Freeze Shock worth it sometimes, actually. Gimmicky, but an option.) Try switching into it. If your opponent has Protect, you switch. (and you should probably know if they do) Also, Freeze Shock OHKOs Ferrothorn.

Whoa whoa, I know that outrage is stronger, I didn't suggest that. I didn't suggest either that outrage is an inferior option.

For the sub three attack set, I simply suggested rock smash as an answer to blissey/Chansey, seeing as ice ground gets very good coverage

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Whoa whoa, I know that outrage is stronger, I didn't suggest that. I didn't suggest either that outrage is an inferior option.

For the sub three attack set, I simply suggested rock smash as an answer to blissey/Chansey, seeing as ice ground gets very good coverage

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Rock Smash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 214-252 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 4.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Rock Smash vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 236-280 (78.4 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Rock Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 136-160 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Rock Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please no.

 

[RotomPoison]

Whoa whoa, I know that outrage is stronger, I didn't suggest that. I didn't suggest either that outrage is an inferior option.

For the sub three attack set, I simply suggested rock smash as an answer to blissey/Chansey, seeing as ice ground gets very good coverage

How is Rock Smash an answer to them when Outrage does more, that's what I was proving. The 80-180 thing literally proved it. Stop saying Rock Smash is an answer to them. Again, super effective does not always mean better.

 

[LoDart210]

How is Rock Smash an answer to them when Outrage does more, that's what I was proving. The 80-180 thing literally proved it. Stop saying Rock Smash is an answer to them. Again, super effective does not always mean better.

Because you don't want to be locked into outrage... Unless I'm missing something here you want to maintain the versatility of the attacks you're launching.

It's not even a question of bringing in a fairy, which negates the possible confusion. Once your opponent knows you're playing a special based kyu b, and they see the outrage, they'll switch into a steel type who can easily handle the uninvested outrage and get you confused.

Again, and please read this, I'm only tossing out a suggestion for the special based kyurem set being discussed, as an option to take out blissey without using outrage which has, this gen, proved to be more a liability than the go to move of choice.

Instead of showing me how little damage rock smash does to bisharp and tyranitar, who'd you'd hit with earth power ANYWAY, please suggest a different physical move that kyu-b can use to combat blissey or any other extremely specially defensive Pokemon.

 

[Nubbins]

Dragon claw lol. Or even fusion bolt.

 

[LoDart210]

O

Dragon claw lol. Or even fusion bolt.

Oh yeah. Damn I didn't think of that at all. I was so focused in finding a super effective answer to blissey I didn't think that a stab attack coming off that monstrous attack stat would be enough.

Still, I wish he got hammer arm.

 

[Ogami]

I've found ice beam is the only stab Kyurem needs, but I much prefer the specially biased subsitute set. I don't like outrage and Fusion bolt has comparable power to dragon claw and much better coverage with ice beam/earth power. Mixed bolt beam coverage is amazingly deadly, and he has the stats to use it. Teravolt means that earth power and ice beam rip through the ridiculously common defensive core of RotomW-MegaSaur-Heatran with substitute meaning none of them can touch you. You set up on all of them too

Rock Smash. Please don't do that to yourself. If you need a fighting stab, which is only ever used for ferrothorn really, use focus blast.

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm aware that Kyurem-B runs 236 Speed EVs to outrun positive base 80s, but what Pokemon would lie in that category? Kyurem-B only needs 224 Speed to outrun Adamant Landorus-T.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I'm aware that Kyurem-B runs 236 Speed EVs to outrun positive base 80s, but what Pokemon would lie in that category? Kyurem-B only needs 224 Speed to outrun Adamant Landorus-T.

Dragonite and Mamoswine are those that come immediately to mind. It cannot outspeed Jolly Gyarados though.
---

What Pokemon are best comboed with Kyurem-B? Offensively, I could think of Excadrill and physical Genesect (preferably Expert Belt as that is also an excellent Wallbreaker once Heatran is out of the way since it is immune to Toxic and can spam Iron Head to override the instant recovery against Pokemon that don't resist it) as they can eliminate Fairies and also apply some physical pressure to Chansey and Blissey.

Excadrill can spin away hazards. I do not want to use Mega Luc, but I thought about Mega Blastoise but of course it could not apply physical pressure nor could I see his utility in breaking cores or any Pokemon that Kyurem-B cannot 2HKO.

 

[Punchshroom]

Dragonite and Mamoswine are those that come immediately to mind. It cannot outspeed Jolly Gyarados though.

Well technically it can with 248 Speed EVs, but I've not seen Jolly Gyarados ever, nor Jolly Dragonite for that matter, since they both have Dragon Dance. As far as I can see, Jolly Mamo is really the only reason to run 236 Speed.

 

[SpaceFlare]

Don't most Gyarados run Jolly so as to need less speed EV investment to hit 264?

 

[Ogami]

What do you guys think about running only 160 speed evs? This gets you to 266 which outspeeds the common 264 and anyone that's speed creeping at 265 which is also pretty common. This would give you a good amount more to invest for mixed builds, which I think most are at this point

 

[Nubbins]

I like being able to outspeed +speed lucarios before they mega evolve.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I like being able to outspeed +speed lucarios before they mega evolve.

I think 216 Hasty should do it, but you do not get the positive nature special boost.

56 HP, 236 Special Attack, 216 Speed +

236 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Doesn't OHKO Lucario. You now need Life Orb for a guaranteed KO. Better run Focus Blast if you want it to check Mega Luc before Mega Evolution and if you do not want Life Orb.

Even if Lucario uses Bullet Punch or Vacuum Wave to secure a Mega Evolution, at least you have some valuable information. But the primary value her is to preempt a sweep by a surprise KO by outspeeding or forcing them to Mega Evolve and attack you.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 212-252 (54 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vacuum wave does a little less though.

Edit: Lucario has the same HP and Special Defense as Mega Lucario.

It is also nice because it can also act as an offensive check to Pinsir:

216 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 296-350 (108.8 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

236 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 184-217 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You are essentially denying it a turn of Mega Evolution by making its Flying type a liability.

The speedier spread trades wallbreaking power for prophylaxis against offensive teams.

 

[Rugi]

Out-speeding is fine and all but priority exists and is becoming more common with X and Y introducing insane users of priority such as Mega-Lucario and Mega-Scizor. Any version of Mega-Lucario wrecks this guy OHKO or 2HKO 100% of the time add to this group a multitude of Pokemon with access to ground type moves and you will soon start to see why this Pokemon's usage has gone down. Don't get me wrong, this Pokemon shouldn't go down from OU. With great stats and an ability that is equivalent to mold breaker this guy feels just too OP to be playing in UU. as for ev spreads and moves. I agree that Landorus-T is the main threat that Kyub needs to outspeed but I still feel it should be noted that 216 evs +speed nature is the golden number for outpseeding lucarios. Although I have no idea why you would want to stay in on a Lucario anyway. Basically if Kyub needs to have more than 216 evs with a +speed nature to outspeed a threat he's probably better of switching out anyway. As for moves anything that can been mentioned has been mentioned. That is all.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Out-speeding is fine and all but priority exists and is becoming more common with X and Y introducing insane users of priority such as Mega-Lucario and Mega-Scizor. Any version of Mega-Lucario wrecks this guy OHKO or 2HKO 100% of the time add to this group a multitude of Pokemon with access to ground type moves and you will soon start to see why this Pokemon's usage has gone down. Don't get me wrong, this Pokemon shouldn't go down from OU. With great stats and an ability that is equivalent to mold breaker this guy feels just too OP to be playing in UU. as for ev spreads and moves. I agree that Landorus-T is the main threat that Kyub needs to outspeed but I still feel it should be noted that 218 evs +speed nature is the golden number for outpseeding lucarios. Although I have no idea why you would want to stay in on a Lucario anyway. Basically if Kyub needs to have more than 214 evs with a +speed nature to outspeed a threat he's probably better of switching out anyway. As for moves anything that can been mentioned has been mentioned. That is all.

Well, by staying in, you can punish Lucario by KOing it during the turn of boosting, or force it to use one of its priority moves (preventing it from boosting because you can threaten a KO and giving you information about its set). It does not seem to be a useless tactical sacrifice.

Edit: While Kyurem-B will often be KOed by one of Lucario's priority moves, if it is using Life Orb and with Stealth Rock up, this set will punish any Lucario set without priority (I am think of a Nasty Plot, Close Combat/Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon, and Dark Pulse ... Dark Pulse hits Aegislash the Hardest while Close Combat without any physical investment allows it KO Blissey and KO Chansey with Stealth Rock). A set without priority's only recourse is to use Flash Cannon or Aura Sphere while you can OHKO it with Life Orb.

Switching out is just a guessing game.

 

[Rugi]

Well, by staying in, you can punish Lucario by KOing it during the turn of boosting, or force it to use one of its priority moves. It does not seem to be a useless tactical sacrifice.

Fair enough outrage is a 2HKO after all. If you can't think of a glaringly important use for those evs than I suppose there isn't a problem.
Also I just ran the calcs 180spe Hasty KYUB is enough to outspeed 208 ev jolly Landorus-T.
I'm really starting to question this whole debate over Kyub's investment into speed.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

For what it's worth, I don't even bother investing in speed - I go for 252 HP 252 Atk 4 SpA. His bulk is more worth the investment to me since I play him expecting to take a hit and KO back instead of outspeeding and KOing (I wouldn't try to take on Landorus with mine though).

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

For what it's worth, I don't even bother investing in speed - I go for 252 HP 252 Atk 4 SpA. His bulk is more worth the investment to me since I play him expecting to take a hit and KO back instead of outspeeding and KOing (I wouldn't try to take on Landorus with mine though).

I would advise you to at least give it some speed. Most Gliscor usually invest in some speed and has the same base speed as Kyurem-B, I am sure you to OHKO it before it can use Toxic. Not that it could survive an Ice Beam or even switch in to Kyurem-B once its Special Attack moveset has been revealed.

My speed suggestion, not necessarily that I am a proponent of giving it more speed, is to give it some more utility against more offensive teams by outspeeding their key threats at the expense of its performance against stall teams. Kyurem-B simply is not as effective against faster paced offensive teams, since it usually would be outspeed, nor could it switch out often due it is nasty Stealth Rock weakness. Against more offensive teams, the best you can do is give it some speed so it does not become set-up bait once it is out, or use its natural bulk to sponge a neutral hit and KO back.

Still, it does have some merit to at least outspeed Mega Luc and Pinsir before mega evolution.

---

interestingly, Life Orb Kyurem not only gives it more KOs against stall, but it is better against offensive teams, since it allows it to KO one of their Pokemon before it is taken down. Against offense teams Kyurem-B can at best hope to sacrifice itself while taking down just one of your opponent's Pokemon since it has fewer opportunities to set-up or use Leftovers recovery; Life Orb gives it enough power for KOs.

Perhaps against offensive teams, it can serve as an anti-lead, since it does beat Rotom-W, Lando-T, and Talonflame, if you are willing to sacrifice it. Sacrificing it to beat those Pokemon may be worth it, and at least you can disrupt their openings.