Landorus (Update)(WIP)

jc104

jc104

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Landorus needed an update, at the very least for the overview, checks and counters, and the special set, since we all underestimated it hugely when the old analysis was written.

Now, I don't know if there was any further discussion about Landorus in the QC discussion in which I disconnected, but if there was, could someone post the conclusions of it.

PKGaming said that Ojama had suggested two special sets, which is interesting. The idea was, I think, that the special set with rock polish is a late game sweeper, and that the U-turn variant is a wall breaker (or, at the very least, a Celebi breaker). Apart from anything, it just doesn't seem right to have so many physical sets and only to give the much better special landorus only one. Still, though, I really don't think they're that different, and neither rock polish nor U-turn is difficult to explain.

So here is the provisional set order:

Special Rock Polish
Special U-turn
Physical Scarf
Gravity
Swords Dance

And, for reference, here are all the sets I'm currently considering:

[SET]
name: Special Rock Polish
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Rock Polish
item: Life Orb
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

- Perhaps the best late game sweeper in the game. Can launch attacks in the mid-game reasonably well too.
- Faster than basically everything after an RP.
- Extremely powerful - sheer force + LO is a 1.69x boost to earth power and focus blast.
- No LO recoil except on HP Ice - hard to wear down/stall out.
- Focus Blast targets Rotom-W (2HKO on the most specially defensive variants, potential OHKO after SR on the least), Skarmory, Hydreigon, even Tyranitar (which, incredibly, can survive EP).
- HP Ice hits opposing flying types, notably other landorus, thundurus t and dragonite, as well as Latios. Hits Latias and Celebi quite hard, although doesn't generally do enough - might want to remove them with pursuit.

AC -

- Modest nature is preferred here, since at +2 you clearly outrun everything, and the extra power is really appreciated for sweeping.
- Can run enough speed to outrun timid venusaur and put rest in HP. However, outrunning neutral nature Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Volcarona etc is nice.
- Psychic / Sludge wave over Focus Blast - Psychic kills venusaur and gengar, hits rotom-w accurately (although not hard enough for SpD variants). Sludge Wave deals massive damage to Celebi.
- Most problematic pokemon to face are Celebi, Latias, Latios, Gengar. Notice a pattern? Pursuit trappers are great partners, especially Choice Band Tyranitar (also scizor/weavile).
- Pair with Expert Belt HP Bug Keldeo to lure and kill Celebi and heavily damage Latias.


[SET]
name: Special Attacker (anyone have a better name?)
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: U-turn / Calm Mind
item: Life Orb
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Naive / Timid (or Modest?)
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

- somewhat similar to the RP set, but with more of a focus on wallbreaking, or at least celebi breaking.
- an offensive menace with almost no good switchins. Typical landorus counters such as Celebi and Latias take a lot of damage from U-turn and are often faced with an immediate pursuit trap.
-Since these are also typical Keldeo counters, pairing this with Keldeo is a great idea.
- Speed is decent, but not enough to sweep usually.
- Calm Mind also allows Landorus to break through Celebi, Blissey, Chansey, pretty much anything, actually. Breaks stall very effectively. Also helps to protect against specially based revenge killers (it can take a hydro pump from a choice scarf keldeo, or a specs latios draco meteor)

AC
- Naive nature is preferred. Landorus has no way to boost speed so you need every bit you can get. With CM, a timid or modest nature is viable. Also well worth considering a more bulky spread (88 HP), as this landorus really does make full use of its bulk.
- Substitute (possible slash) - generally a very good move. Helps to ease prediction and protect against stuff like status and leech seed.
- Psychic - coverage on Gengar, Venusaur.
- SR over Focus Blast - if you have no other place on your team, landorus can set up SR quite easily. However, Landorus turns are usually quite valuable - you don't want to waste one setting up SR when you could be killing stuff!
- Pair with choice Keldeo - lures and totally cripples celebi
- As usual, pair with a trapper - Tyranitar is the best, weavile and scizor decent.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Sand Force
nature: Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

- scout and revenge killer for sand teams
- outruns most of the metagame (notable exceptions scarf keld/terrak/latios), including +1 Volcarona and +1 Dragons, to revenge with Stone Edge / HP Ice.
- Sand Force boosted EQ is powerful, but is not a good move to be locked into - this is the key weakness of scarf landorus.


[SET]
name: Physical Gravity
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Gravity
move 3: U-turn / Stone Edge
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Life Orb
ability: Sand Force
nature: Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

AC - Expert Belt, Smack down (doubles as a weak coverage move), Soft Sand.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Swords Dance
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Explosion / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Sand Force
nature: Naive / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

AC - bulk up

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Calm Mind
item: Life Orb
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Physical Rock Polish
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Rock Polish
item: Life Orb
ability: Sand Force
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Life Orb
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Stealth Rock
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: U-Turn
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Stealth Rock
item: Life Orb
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Obviously, we don't really want to end up with 9 sets, but there is certainly potential to combine some of the special sets together (e.g sub, CM, and U-turn, for instance), and I'm not wholly sure about the physical rock polish and swords dance sets.

edit: OK apparently PKGaming (and Ojama?) has already made some sort of edit of my old analysis: http://pastebin.com/SmLhnH0y.

This should serve as a nice base, and contains a lot of good content, although the writing isn't quite right, as PKGaming admitted.
 
Totally agreeing with the existing sets. Rock Polish Landorus should be the first set with U-turn following. Slashing Calm Mind after U-turn is also a possibility, to annihilate any kind of stall team.

Physical EB should go to AC or OO as it has only a few things over the special U-turn set, which hits way harder and is walled by less Pokemon. The only real pros of physical EB set is the bluff potential (which alone is never a good enough reason to justify the existence of a set) and the lack of LO recoil when using U-turn and Hidden Power Ice, which seems very minor.

Similarly, physical Sub is almost always outclassed by special Sub, which should be mentioned in the AC of the U-turn special set.

Five main sets seems absolutely fine to me!

Also, i think that physical Rock Polish with Life Orb may deserve a main set. In sand, it has only one true OU counter (Skarmory) and can make for a fantastic late-game sweeper that has much fewer troubles that the special Rock Polish set with Pokemon such as Latios (Stone Edge: 78.73 - 92.69% vs HP Ice: 61.46 - 72.42%), Celebi (2HKOed by Stone Edge while it counters the special set), Latias, Amoonguss (OHKOed by EQ after SR), SpD Jellicent (OHKOed by EQ while only 2HKOed by EP after SR, and SpD Rotom-W (physical RP always 2HKOed with Stone Edge which deals 61.38 - 72.6%, while special RP needs to hit twice with FB to 2HKO it, which is essentialy a coinflip, and needs much more previous damage to OHKO, as it only deals Focus Blast: 51.15). What's more is that its only true counter (Skarmory) can easily be trapped and OHKOed by several trappers (Magnezone and Gothitelle), while Gothitelle also traps and kills Hippowdon, one of the best checks to it, unlike the special Rock Polish set which is countered by a Pokemon that is impossible to trap, Baton Pass SpD Celebi, and thus you need to resort in strategies such as luring or overwhelming. However, unlike the special RP set, the physical RP set needs more support, as sand is vital to its success.
 
I think we should just combine RP, CM AND U-turn and call it "Special Attacker". I understand they play slightly differently, but they are essentially the same thing. I really don't think that slight difference really means much. All you have to mention in AC is that your last move caters for what you want to better against (RP for offense, CM for stall, U-turn for Volt-turn and Celebi).
 
I'm agreeing with Shrang. IMO it should look like this

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Hidden Power [Ice]
move 4: Rock Polish / U-Turn / Calm Mind / Psychic

Psychic is pretty much meant for Gengar, Herracross, and stuff that is only hit nuetrally by HP Ice and resists the other two. The set has 4 shapes. Power; Speed; Momentum; Coverage your choice
 
^ This.

Psychic OHKOs Gengar, 136/120 Conkeldurr after SR and Subseed Breloom (HP Ice has around a 10% chance to KO) to name a few thing Landorus wouldn't like to miss out on KOs. However, I think it's inferior enough to the other three to remain AC.

However, to say that the three moves cause Landorus to function only slightly differently is understated. Each fills a significantly different niche. RP is the stupidly good lategame sweeper, U-turn punches holes and gains momentum and laughs at Celebi, while CM is about wrecking power once faster threats and priority are eliminated. It also destroys stall.

IMO, 3 separate analyses will clog up Landorus' page unnecessarily and we would wind up with another Dragonite. That said, each move needs to be given due credit, maybe given a paragraph each to explain how significantly the fourth choice affects Landorus' role on the team.
 
We are going to have two seperate analyses, not three, for special sets. Rock Polish is a sweeper while U-turn is a wallbreaker, which means different purposes and so different sets.
 
I still think doing 3 or more special sets is a possibility (bearing in mind that we have the possibility of CM, Sub, SR, Psychic, and U-turn, as well as RP). We're definitely not going to do just one though.
 
Vertex said:
I'm agreeing with Shrang. IMO it should look like this

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Hidden Power [Ice]
move 4: Rock Polish / U-Turn / Calm Mind / Psychic

Psychic is pretty much meant for Gengar, Herracross, and stuff that is only hit nuetrally by HP Ice and resists the other two. The set has 4 shapes. Power; Speed; Momentum; Coverage your choice
Click to expand...
/Stealth Rock too!
 
In that case I think we should cap it at two on-site analyses.

1 should be Boosting Special Sweeper, the other would be All-Out Attacker (?) with U-turn / Psychic / Stealth Rock.

Note that the key differences between the sets are that the former capitalises on having counters eliminated to end games with nigh-unstoppable sweeps, while the latter is meant to build momentum, act as an offensive pivot with useful resistances and provide general utility and wall-weakening power depending on 4th move.
 
I am pretty sure we can merge some of these sets together tbh

Sub could prolly be merged with U-Turn special attacker (with U-Turn first slash) as neither of them aim to boost, and both of them aim to break walls I guess so merging them isn't a terrible idea imo.

SD could prolly be slashed with Physical Rock Polish

I am also not really solid on the SR set. I guess it works and all, I just dislike missing out on Focus Blast, as well as Landorus-T giving it a fair amount of competition. IDK, I just think it has better things to be doing but w/e.
 
Remember that landorus also has sludge bomb, which is bad and all, but actually not every team needs focus miss while sludge bomb easily 2koes celebi (it should be used in the rp set i think)
 
No Physical Gravity, outclassed by Lando-T.

I'm not really sure what you'd be getting the jump on by using Lando-I instead. Stuff between the speed tiers of the two either don't care for Gravity or don't like getting Intimidated, with the only exception being like Hydreigon.

Unless I'm missing something, Hydreigon and the situational sand force bonus do not make a set. Intimidate and reliable extra power make Lando-T so much better at it.

Agreeing on all points made on the Sub/U-turn/Rocks/CM into one big thing

So sets would be Sp. RP, Sp. Attacker, Scarf, Physical RP, SD in more or less that order
 
Neliel said:
Remember that landorus also has sludge bomb, which is bad and all, but actually not every team needs focus miss while sludge bomb easily 2koes celebi (it should be used in the rp set i think)
Click to expand...

I think you mean Sludge Wave, and yes, I know. I haven't listed the AC moves yet.

UltiMario said:
No Physical Gravity, outclassed by Lando-T.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I was questioning whether I should even respond to this, bearing in mind that you couldn't even be bothered to come up with a complete sentence. It really doesn't come across well.

Anyway, the Speed definitely is significant. You outrun Kyurem(-B), Salamence, Jirachi, Volcarona, a lot of Thundurus-T (at least a tie) and most importantly Rock Polish Landorus. I know a some of these are all that common, but they are mostly more common than max Speed Hydreigon, which somehow was the only thing you could come up with.

Also, I'm not saying that Landorus completely outclasses Landorus-T. I think Landorus-T is mostly better. But if you ARE using sand, then its worth noting that Landorus really is significantly stronger than its therian cousin. An extra 20 base attack absolutely pales in comparison to a 30% boost. And its HP Ice is rather stronger, too, which is important if you want to take things like Breloom down (and rare stuff like Tangrowth), as well, of course, as KOing flying types much more easily when you don't have gravity up (if you have stone edge, then no U-turn, which is really significant).
 
My list comprised of stuff that didn't care for Intimidate and were effected by Gravity between the speed tiers. I'll admit I didn't think about the tie with Thundy, but on your part all on-site Jirachi sets except Scarf are slower than Lando-T anyways so the jump is nearly irrelevant.

I really just feel if you want to kill all the things Gravity Lando-I can kill, you should just run special instead. The main KOs Lando-T likes from Gravity are Skarm and Zong, where special nails Skarm anyways and everything you listed bar Volcarona gets mauled by the special sets anyways. On top of that, if Sand gets stripped away, your ability to OHKO Gravity's big targets becomes nonexistant.

I just feel that between Special Lando-I and Gravity Lando-T, there's just nowhere for Gravity Lando-I to be useful. It's a bastard child between the two sets that covers a little of both worlds in terms of what it can kill, but it's just incredibly specific what you'd need to target for it to work.

I guess if you REALLY need specifically a Landorus that has no problem with Zong, Salamence, and Volcarona on one set, and you feel that you're guaranteed to keep sand up (or have Gravity Spikes support against Zong, I suppose), then it's not outclassed in that incredibly small niche. If people think that limited niche is enough for the set to be site-worthy, then so be it. I won't argue that part.
 
Once you flesh this out, I'll approve it. I agree with the sets that were omitted.

  • I would just get rid of Substitute and Psychic on the Special Attacker set. Both are mediocre and niche options in general. Psychic is used more on the Rock Polish set anyways.
  • In the AC of the Rock Polish set, I would mention a few benchmarks. 100 Spe (assuming 30 Atk / 30 Def IV's) allow you to outspeed Jolly Breloom and Adamant Dragonite with no speed boost while outspeeding up to Scarf 110's at +2. 128 Spe EV's allow you to outspeed Adamant Toxicroak with no boost, 168 Spe EV's for Adamant Lucario, and 208 Spe for neutral-natured Max Spe Kyurem-B.
  • Mention how using Expert Belt Keldeo is wise for a Rock Polish Landorus partner to lure in Celebi and Lati@s while U-turn Landorus does the same for non Expert-Belt Keldeos.
  • Slash Substitute next to Explosion on the Swords Dance set and mention how it appreciates burn support to set up on things like Ferrothorn. Also mention that it's best used with Leftovers. SubSD is an effective sweeper which forces a lot of switches so it has plentiful time Substituting.
  • Mention Bulk Up in AC of Swords Dance since now priority is less effective, but Bulk Up is situational and you'll often prefer the power of Swords Dance.
Nice work so far!
 
ginganinja said:
I am pretty sure we can merge some of these sets together tbh

Sub could prolly be merged with U-Turn special attacker (with U-Turn first slash) as neither of them aim to boost, and both of them aim to break walls I guess so merging them isn't a terrible idea imo.

SD could prolly be slashed with Physical Rock Polish

I am also not really solid on the SR set. I guess it works and all, I just dislike missing out on Focus Blast, as well as Landorus-T giving it a fair amount of competition. IDK, I just think it has better things to be doing but w/e.
Click to expand...
Yeah usually Lando-T is the better option if you need rocks, but I've found Stealth Rock Lando to be amazing in offensive rain when space is tight for a stealth Rocker and you need the Sheer Force > Intimidate.
 
Yeah, I'm glad I waited before putting too much time into this.

Please could a mod lock and move (seems badgeholders cant do that with their own threads any more)
 
Gladly.

tumblr_m41f505IO11qd87hlo1_500.gif
 
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