Latias Voting

[DougJustDoug]

I will admit that the lack of participation is particularly frustrating for those of us working to enable the community to vote. Many members of the community talk about how inconvenient the Suspect Ladder is -- and I agree, it takes some work to prove you deserve a right to participate in the decision.

Let me tell you "the easy way". The easy way to decide tiers, is for the admins and a few other hand-chosen members of the Smogon community to hold a quick theorymon roundtable on IRC, and come up with a seat-of-our-pants estimation of what should be uber or not. That's EASY. We could settle the whole thing in about 30 minutes. Unfortunately, no one else would have any say in the matter. But, from my perspective, it would be a helluva lot less work.

All this suspect bullshit required a massive upgrade to Shoddy, the coordination of several Smogon resources to develop procedures and guidelines, the tallying of votes, processing essays, weeding out cheaters, soliciting discussion and feedback, and incrementally implementing changes as things are decided. All that infrastructure is put in place for what? For roughly 20 people to hold a vote? If I want 20 people to vote, I can pick 20 people I KNOW are decent battlers, and ask their opinion. I certainly don't need to slave away programming configurable ladders on Shoddy, and coordinate a bunch of PR and Stark threads to beg people to participate in a process that is NOTHING but work for me and several others.

The question is: Why are we doing this? It's not because it's easy for me, Aeolus, Jumpman, or anyone else administering the Suspect testing process. If anyone thinks we are getting some personal benefit from this -- nothing could be further from the truth. I don't get a goddamn thing from this, other than headaches. I received more thank you's for fixing the move Spite, than I have for enabling suspect testing on the Shoddy server. How sad is that?!? More people appreciate a move that has only slightly more competitive value than Splash -- over the ability to democratically decide the tiering for our entire metagame. It's fucking pathetic, if you ask me.

I'm not saying this to get a "thank you" from the community; that's not the point. Although I can't speak for Aeolus and Jumpman -- I think they would say the same. In other conversations, I've heard Jump refer to this Suspect process, as one of his most important contributions to Smogon -- EVER. For someone who has been around as long as him, I'd say that's pretty damn important. I don't think I've ever seen anyone express appreciation for Jumpman's efforts. On the other hand, I've seen a MILLION bitchers, second-guessers, and whiners that have complained endlessly about how much they disagree with the process, how we are "ruining the metagame" , and inconveniencing their crowded battling schedule. Those ungrateful bastards can kiss my ass.

I have yet to cast a vote in any of these Suspect tests, and I honestly don't give a shit whether Garchomp, Deoxys, Wobbuffet, Skymin, or Latias are uber. In the small fraction of time available for me to battle -- I will play whatever metagame we have at the time. However, I am deeply committed that the community should have a hand in the making of the metagame. As such, I will continue to work my ass off, to give you the right to do so.

To those of you that won't lift a finger to exercise the rights that we are persevering to give you -- shame on you. And pardon me if I say "Fuck you" when you request that we work harder to make it even easier -- when right now, it appears that most people don't care to participate in anything that requires more than the barest modicum of effort.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I am glad to actually have a voice in the matter of what belongs where in the tiers compared to R/S/E where everything was just a second guess by a small group of people.

At least problems are happening now and perhaps not later because we can learn from them. I think next Suspect test we should have a thread of like people communicating when they plan on being on the Smogon server. When people see "I had to wait 2 hours for a battle" on the forums I think that might be discouraging some people to participate because in their minds why would they want to wait that long? Even though that's not helping this at all. Also, if people hear many of the best players are there they might just get scared and not want to lose (even though I consider losing a vital part of learning).

If we got some commitment from some people at certain times throughout the month instead of massive amounts of pointless theorymon we might get a bit more activity.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

First off, I'd like to say that Doug and the rest of the staff don't nearly get the credit that they deserve for this massive undertaking. It really does mean something for the metagame to have staff members that are willing to buck the old ways and let the community have a say. Like I said, Pokemon is the only game where the biggest competitive battling community lets the average schmuck get a say in the development of the metagame, and it's pretty much taken for granted by most anyone on this board.

That said, I'd like to say a couple things, and you can take them as you will. First off, I'd like to point out that I was entirely right about the effect that the current suspect test setup had on the ladder. I'll have you know that this isn't some attempt to have the battling community stroke my e-penis, because I honestly don't give a damn whether a bunch of people on the internet even acknowledge me, it isn't important. What I do think is that instead of twiddling our thumbs and going, "Well shit." the people in charge of the Suspect Test should learn from this and judge how to figure things out accordingly. I don't presume to say that I know how to run this better than anyone else, because god knows I don't. I just know that something went wrong here, and that for the good of the metagame it should be fixed.

EDIT: This is referring mostly to the usage stats from December. It was obvious that the Suspect Test metagame was so far removed from the Standard metagame that it's arguable whether or not the suspect test was an accurate gauge of the suspect's power in Standard. In the other suspect tests, there were subtle differences between the ladders. In this one, you had ridiculous changes like Magnezone being #28 on Standard and #8 on Suspect, Gengar being 10 on Standard and 24 on Suspect (though I suspect this is largely due to the fact that Latias' standard use as a Calm Mind sweeper made it more effective than Gengar in many cases), Dugtrio being 47 on Standard and 25 on Suspect, and a more subtle but still just as important one, the fact that Latias was used approximately 1.33 times per battle, even more than Kyogre in Ubers, eclipsing the Number 1, Scizor, by more than double. Note that this all hinges on January's statistics, but IMO the Suspect Test statistics should be released before voting begins in order to inform people better.

Next, I'd like to say that the Latias test kinda got the short end of the stick when New UU exploded and took a lot of battlers with it during the middle of the month. People can say that it had no effect in the long run, but it did, and that in no way reflects poorly on the Suspect Test staff. I know for a fact that once New UU started up, I had no chance of making the voting cutoff, and I went into the test knowing that. But it would be completely unfair of me to try and blame someone else for my inability to make the cutoff. The ratings are there for a reason, and it's not someone else's fault that I didn't make the cutoff. To imply that it is makes absolutely no sense and honestly doesn't deserve a mention. No offense implied to Veedrock, who I know is a smart individual, but if he had put in the effort to get his ratings up in the middle of the month rather than cramming at the end, he wouldn't be ranting like this now. You can't blame the process if a lot of good battlers hold off on Suspect Test until the end of the month. Those battlers are good enough to KNOW that they can win enough matches to get up into voting range in time, and to imply it's anyone's fault other than your own that these good players are beating the pants off of you in the eleventh hour is ridiculous.

The urge to blame someone else for your own failures is obviously very well-rooted in the human nature. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own failures when they can throw them on someone else. It's even easier to blame it on "the process," which is nameless, formless, and defenseless. And to be honest, it's those kind of people who shouldn't be determining the future of a metagame as complex as Pokemon.

 

[Veedrock]

I didn't expect to be called out >__>;

No offense implied to Veedrock, who I know is a smart individual, but if he had put in the effort to get his ratings up in the middle of the month rather than cramming at the end, he wouldn't be ranting like this now.

I've been playing all through the test. I'm not exaggerating. There's probably been 4 days where I haven't played. You can't really play the last minute card with me, and I have NO idea where you're getting that idea from.

(there's also the fact that I literally get forcefully disconnected from the internet every 15 minutes, which prevents me from laddering consistently. That's a personal issue though)

You can't blame the process if a lot of good battlers hold off on Suspect Test until the end of the month. Those battlers are good enough to KNOW that they can win enough matches to get up into voting range in time, and to imply it's anyone's fault other than your own that these good players are beating the pants off of you in the eleventh hour is ridiculous

My blame on the process never came from last minute battlers. It came from the ladder consisting of those willing to participate (hopeful voters) and only the best of them actually make rating. Instead of rating compared to the community we're rated compared to voter hopefuls.

The urge to blame someone else for your own failures is obviously very well-rooted in the human nature. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own failures when they can throw them on someone else.

Not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'll take it that way regardless. I'm well aware that I'm a worse battler than those eligible to vote; I can't blame anyone else for that, it would be silly to try. That's why I didn't make rating, because they are better (survival of the fittest among hopeful voters). Now should I take resposibility that I didn't make rating because those are (for the most part) the only people that are available to play? (I'm aware that this statement is a bit exaggerated because of how far my rating did actually get, but it still stands)

It's even easier to blame it on "the process," which is nameless, formless, and defenseless. And to be honest, it's those kind of people who shouldn't be determining the future of a metagame as complex as Pokemon.

Something about your attitude towards this process thing irks me. The "process" was the reason for the whack vote towards Skymin. Pretty sure we reached this consensus and as such we changed the process and are retesting him. {rest removed for poor wording and clouded thinking. My apologies}

I'm steamed right now; honestly wasn't expecting to get bashed right here. If I continue, I'll regret something (and probably already will). I'll just cut it right here.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I didn't expect to be called out >__>;

Didn't really mean to call you out, but given that you've been the most vocal opposition to the voting requirements, you've kinda stuck your neck out. Note that I really don't mean anything harsh towards you. I think you're a quality user and a boon to the community, but your statements on the matter have a touch of extremism to them.

I've been playing all through the test. I'm not exaggerating. There's probably been 4 days where I haven't played. You can't really play the last minute card with me, and I have NO idea where you're getting that idea from.

(there's also the fact that I literally get forcefully disconnected from the internet every 15 minutes, which prevents me from laddering consistently. That's a personal issue though)

If you've been laddering consistently, then there really should be no problem here. There's no way you're worse than the ENTIRE battling community, and it's really not hard to get the ranking required if you're consistent enough. If you want to blame your internet, go ahead, but the process has no bearing on whether or not your internet tanks your ability to gain rank.

My blame on the process never came from last minute battlers. It came from the ladder consisting of those willing to participate (hopeful voters) and only the best of them actually make rating. Instead of rating compared to the community we're rated compared to voter hopefuls.

The "last minute battlers" thing came from a lot of other people, and it's odd that you assume I'm calling you out on something that you never actually referred to, but okay. Anyway, the point is that of course the Suspect Test ladder will have died down near the end, but in the early and middle stages, there was a TON of activity, both from voter hopefuls and from people that felt like trying out the suspect. This is no different from something like the Garchomp suspect test, where there was really no need to play on the Suspect Test ladder unless you really wanted to vote or just hated Garchomp (i.e. wanted to vote him Uber), yet the Garchomp vote had more than twice as many voters here.

Not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'll take it that way regardless. I'm well aware that I'm a worse battler than those eligible to vote; I can't blame anyone else for that, it would be silly to try. That's why I didn't make rating, because they are better (survival of the fittest among hopeful voters). Now should I take resposibility that I didn't make rating because those are (for the most part) the only people that are available to play? (I'm aware that this statement is a bit exaggerated because of how far my rating did actually get, but it still stands)

Yes you should take responsibility. If, as people are claiming, the real superstars all showed up in the last 3 days and they were the only people available to battle, then it IS your fault for not making the rating earlier in the month. For the record, I held voting ranking until the start of the New UU test, and then immediately stopped laddering on Suspect Test. By the time I got to the Suspect Test ladder, it was filled with people that either had teams that completely countered my own or were far above my skill level (I can only fight IPL's Stall team so much, and I can't beat it reliably when he knows my team exactly). And I know that it was COMPLETELY my fault that I didn't make the ranking. I got up to 1610/44 and stalled, and that's what happened. It wasn't anyone's fault but my own.

Something about your attitude towards this process thing irks me. The "process" was the reason for the whack vote towards Skymin. Pretty sure we reached this consensus and as such we changed the process and are retesting him. {rest removed for poor wording and clouded thinking. My apologies}

I'm steamed right now; honestly wasn't expecting to get bashed right here. If I continue, I'll regret something (and probably already will). I'll just cut it right here.

If you'll notice, the "process" for Skymin and the "process" for Latias were completely different (notably the addition of a Suspect Test ladder and bold voting), so that argument holds somewhere around ZERO water here.

I'm sorry if I "bashed" you, but to be honest the "process" doesn't get to become Smogon's universal scapegoat. I in no way meant to insult you as a user, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way, but this is a big enough issue that what needs to be said trumps what's nice.

 

[Veedrock]

Didn't really mean to call you out, but given that you've been the most vocal opposition to the voting requirements, you've kinda stuck your neck out. Note that I really don't mean anything harsh towards you. I think you're a quality user and a boon to the community, but your statements on the matter have a touch of extremism to them.

I know I stuck my head out and was ready for any consequences. Just shocked that somebody actually listened, and that such an offensive stand was taken against me (it's perfectly fine btw). The extremism tone either comes from my wording or simply because I'm fumed (never a good thing), not because I'm some mindless radical.

Just few things I want to respond to, nothing in depth. Tired and cloudy minded, so nothing superb to be said in this.

If you've been laddering consistently, then there really should be no problem here. There's no way you're worse than the ENTIRE battling community, and it's really not hard to get the ranking required if you're consistent enough. If you want to blame your internet, go ahead, but the process has no bearing on whether or not your internet tanks your ability to gain rank.

One problem with this was against who? That was when it was really, really difficult to get a match.

In regards to a majority of your other responses, the above fits similarly. I'm sure I made rating once upon a time, but losses here and there add up, and as deviation drops rating increases literally become a bitch to obtain.

When I speak against the how things work or have gone (take it as you will), it really isn't for me personally because, well, it wasn't the primary problem I had, though it seems like it because I do take that stand to better make the argument.

My main problem comes from my connection (which is personal, has no bearing on the testing process). I could go into specifics on why it hindered me, but it's relatively off topic and doesn't contribute much to the overall picture. Just ask around the ladder; I'm known as the guy that kicks himself several times an hour ._. Again, this has zero bearing on the actual test itself.

If you'll notice, the "process" for Skymin and the "process" for Latias were completely different (notably the addition of a Suspect Test ladder and bold voting), so that argument holds somewhere around ZERO water here.

There was more to that argument, but I deleted it. I don't want to stir up that can of worms right now, because that could get really ugly (looking back on it I never should've went into that in my comment on CTP).

I'm sorry if I "bashed" you, but to be honest the "process" doesn't get to become Smogon's universal scapegoat. I in no way meant to insult you as a user, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way, but this is a big enough issue that what needs to be said trumps what's nice.

I don't want the process to be a scapegoat, believe it or not. I do understand what you are talking about and you are absolutely right. I don't speak out, though, expecting it to change the voter pool or have some last minute amendment to requirements. I speak out because if it's flawed in some way (in this case the community is the primary issue), it should be corrected if at all possible to make future tests run more efficiently.

 

[reachzero]

Let me clarify for a moment that I do not in any way believe that the Suspect process is broken or a bad idea. In fact, I think the process itself is much smoother now than most of the earlier Suspect votes. The one factor that was problematic that could've been avoided was releasing the new UU at the same time as a Suspect that had never been tested before; in hindsight (which is 20/20), it might have been better to save that for the time of the Skymin re-test, since Skymin is already better known and understood than Latias. No one (including me) was saying that at the time, though, so it wouldn't exactly be fair to say that anyone was really to blame for the timing here....With all that being said, I'd say we do have a pretty good grip on what Latias is and isn't, and I'm quite confident that we'll have her tiered correctly. And that is, after all, the goal of the Suspect testing, isn't it?

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Confirming as Sitzmark.

 

[Jumpman16]

With all that being said, I'd say we do have a pretty good grip on what Latias is and isn't, and I'm quite confident that we'll have her tiered correctly. And that is, after all, the goal of the Suspect testing, isn't it?

Yes, it is, which is why, though I'm inclined to be disappointed in the community (again), my disappointment has much more to do with the fact that people are complaining about the process than with how large or small the number 24 is. Anyway, I agree pretty much 100% with ToF and Doug (surprise!) even down to what would elicit his "Fuck you", and they basically summed up most of my thoughts about this, but I will say a few other things.

Edit: I'll go ahead and say that the only way to keep this from happening in future tests is to regularly advertise the ladder on Shoddy. Announcements on the forums obviously help spread interest, but you can't assume that every player regularly visits Smogon, or that the regulars even check Stark. Every time I asked the main chat to get on the Suspect ladder, I got multiple people telling me they didn't even know what it was (and no it wasn't always new people).

I walled messages like "Four days left in Latias's Suspect Test! Make a difference in competitive pokemon!" numerous times in the last week of the test, even though at its core I didn't feel it was really necessary since I believe the motivation to make that difference comes from within. But in addition to that, I am honestly absolutely baffled that people wouldn't say "hey does anyone want to hop on the Suspect ladder" in the chat. This has nothing to do with my personal affiliation with the process, nor am I echoing a method that you allegedly tried, nor am I using 20/20 hindsight to make that claim. If I were interested in playing the Suspect Ladder and it was taking more than five minutes to get a battle, I would have asked in the chat every single time.

It does not make any logical sense that, if there were as large a number of people who had to wait 20 minutes to two hours to battle on the Suspect Ladder as several of the posters in this thread would have us believe, this wouldn't have worked wonders every single time. The only deterrent to this would have been a fear of "asking for a battle" being in violation of the rules, which is a load of shit in my mind as any rational mod/admin would have understood if a "the suspect ladder is slow" was offered (and I doubt many of the mods or admins would have said "use the find tab" anyway).

So how do we fix this? Well, we have to start with the welcome message. Now I know that very few people actually read the welcome message, but I'm sure at least a few would notice that a picture of Latios alongside giant red text had started appearing at the top, instead of the regular Smogon coat of arms. Next, and most importantly, we need to remind people what Suspect is there for multiple times a day. Neither of these are drastic changes, and they don't take much effort to do, but I really do believe they would make a huge difference in Suspect interest (not to mention less bitching about why X was unbanned fuck Smogon etc). Please don't think this post is only directed to Shoddy staff, as it doesn't take an admin to throw out a comment every few hours.

Aside from my suspicion that utilizing the Welcome Message wouldn't really have done/do all that much, I am pretty sure that I personally gave you your mods back like two months ago without consulting anyone else, Gouki, and that coincidentally moderators have the ability to use the /wall command as well! If you really regard that action "most importantly" you would have utilized it like I did, especially since you stood to directly benefit from it by getting the battles you wanted, where I of course did not since I don't care about battling. But as I said above, it doesn't have to take a /wall command or an admin or a mod to get more battles.

In addition, with a smaller pool of voters the chances of going up in rank decreases, since you have a higher chance of repeatedly battling people who are better than you. While this may not deter the top-tier players, not everyone can compete with the better battlers on the site, and those are the ones you will see most often with such a small pool and the wait times. We don't want just the very top players and badge holders voting. If we wanted that, it would be decided in PR, not an open vote. We need standards to ensure some competency, but we should also want more opinions than the few we will be getting.

You do realize that willingness to participate in the Suspect Test and having a badge are not mutually exclusive, right? People are granted PR access when they demonstrate a willingness to discuss competitive pokemon intelligently and respectfully in Stark Mountain, not because they are good. People are badged (and thus gain automatic access to PR) by demonstrating they care enough about making a difference in the community, through the Tutor program, or rating teams well and often, or being a Contributor, etc, not because they are good. The only actual visual indication of a "top-tier player" that we recognize on the forums are the Tour and Official Tournament trophies, and these don't grant people automatic access to PR. If they do, and there are trophy holders who are not also badged anyway, neither of which I am going to check, having a trophy certainly does not preclude an actual inclination to post in PR since pretty no trophy holder to my memory has posted in PR, which proves my point regardless.

So yeah, if it's true that, after all, the badgeholders and PR members make up the majority of those who qualified for this test, it is indicative of an inherent passion to make a difference in competitive pokemon, which does not directly correlate with an inclination to be a top-tier player. I will remind you all that yes, we did consider just having the badgeholders vote on Suspect, as Doug stated above. We didn't do that in fairness to the community, even if it would have been a lot less work for us and we'd probably be "done" by now. So if, after giving the community a chance to make a difference, it turns out that the majority of people who participated in the test and made the requirements are badgeholders or were otherwise granted PR access...then maybe that's all the indication I need that we're letting the right people impact the tiers.

That said, I'd like to say a couple things, and you can take them as you will. First off, I'd like to point out that I was entirely right about the effect that the current suspect test setup had on the ladder. I'll have you know that this isn't some attempt to have the battling community stroke my e-penis, because I honestly don't give a damn whether a bunch of people on the internet even acknowledge me, it isn't important. What I do think is that instead of twiddling our thumbs and going, "Well shit." the people in charge of the Suspect Test should learn from this and judge how to figure things out accordingly. I don't presume to say that I know how to run this better than anyone else, because god knows I don't. I just know that something went wrong here, and that for the good of the metagame it should be fixed.

Allow me to quote your point, which you reemphasized to make sure I didn't miss it (i.e. you don't get to backpedal now), from my Latias Suspect thread:

As wonderful as that diatribe is, it still completely ignores my point. The only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder at this point is to use Latias

I stated in response that a desire to positively impact competitive pokemon should be the reason to use the Suspect Ladder, not a desire to use Latias. I have reiterated this response, and people like Doug, ToF and Hector have stated it in their own words as well. They are either blindly agreeing with the mighty Jumpman16, or they see that the Suspect Test Process is more than about wanting to use x pokemon.

So I would argue that you were not, in your own words, "right about the effect that the current suspect test setup had on the ladder". Just because participation did not pick up does not mean that it was because people did not want to use Latias. This is "correlation does not equal causation" at its core. I can make a much more compelling argument than you that the community is inherently lazy, and those who care about impacting competitive pokemon will do whatever it takes to make an impact, than you can that the only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder is to use the Suspect. That's all besides the point now, though, which I've stated above: maybe "24" isn't a low number, and maybe the fact that people with current PR access make up the majority of those who met the Suspect Test Requirements is not a coincidence.

Anyway, Aeolus and I will convene soon to draft what we want form you guys.

 

[zorbees]

my disappointment has much more to do with the fact that people are complaining about the process

Sorry, but could you explain why complaining about the process is a bad thing? I mean, useless complaining is annoying, but it seems (at least to me) that we are trying to fix and perfect the process, and not complaining just to complain. Personally, I would rather have the tier of each suspect decided upon in PR than by the public, especially after the Shaymin vote.

 

[lilyhollow]

Sorry, but could you explain why complaining about the process is a bad thing? I mean, useless complaining is annoying, but it seems (at least to me) that we are trying to fix and perfect the process, and not complaining just to complain. Personally, I would rather have the tier of each suspect decided upon in PR than by the public, especially after the Shaymin vote.

It's one thing to complain, but when you're complaining about something you yourself could have easily helped deal with personally, that's when things become "disappointing." I'm not even going to say whether or not it's technically helpful, just that there are much better things to do if you're anyone who "cares about competitive Pokemon," which should be pretty much implied when you're willing to whine on internet forums about it.

 

[Darkmalice]

But in addition to that, I am honestly absolutely baffled that people wouldn't say "hey does anyone want to hop on the Suspect ladder" in the chat. This has nothing to do with my personal affiliation with the process, nor am I echoing a method that you allegedly tried, nor am I using 20/20 hindsight to make that claim. If I were interested in playing the Suspect Ladder and it was taking more than five minutes to get a battle, I would have asked in the chat every single time.

It does not make any logical sense that, if there were as large a number of people who had to wait 20 minutes to two hours to battle on the Suspect Ladder as several of the posters in this thread would have us believe, this wouldn't have worked wonders every single time. The only deterrent to this would have been a fear of "asking for a battle" being in violation of the rules, which is a load of shit in my mind as any rational mod/admin would have understood if a "the suspect ladder is slow" was offered (and I doubt many of the mods or admins would have said "use the find tab" anyway).

I must admit that finding an OU battle is much quicker than finding a suspect game. However, I've always managed to find a Suspect battle in under 5 minutes. This may have been different for the last 2 weeks of the voting process, especially with the nUU test; I cannot tell as I was absent from shoddy. But otherwise, I haven't had a problem with waiting time. If people are complaining about waiting times for the Suspect ladder, I am more inclined to believe that they are just making up excuses for not meeting the rating requirements. The deterrent excuse of "violation of the rules" seems very improbable to me. Someone could say, "Someone join the Suspect Ladder please," which is not requesting a friendly match, and does not violate the rules in anyway. I have asked many times for a match in the Uber metagame, and I have never been told off.

I stated in response that a desire to positively impact competitive pokemon should be the reason to use the Suspect Ladder, not a desire to use Latias. I have reiterated this response, and people like Doug, ToF and Hector have stated it in their own words as well. They are either blindly agreeing with the mighty Jumpman16, or they see that the Suspect Test Process is more than about wanting to use x pokemon.

So I would argue that you were not, in your own words, "right about the effect that the current suspect test setup had on the ladder". Just because participation did not pick up does not mean that it was because people did not want to use Latias. This is "correlation does not equal causation" at its core. I can make a much more compelling argument than you that the community is inherently lazy, and those who care about impacting competitive pokemon will do whatever it takes to make an impact, than you can that the only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder is to use the Suspect. That's all besides the point now, though, which I've stated above: maybe "24" isn't a low number, and maybe the fact that people with current PR access make up the majority of those who met the Suspect Test Rquirements is not a coincidence.

Now that I think about it, people wanting to try out x pokemon is probably the main reason why the new nUU test is so popular, not to positive impact competitive pokemon. People can use BL pokemon in a tier where they are not outmatched by OU pokemon. But to cancel the test for this reason would end up determining the new tiers by DougJustDoug's "easy way," which is clearly not what the smogon community wants to do.

People not paying much attention to the Latias test is at least somewhat related to this new test. People have already had time to use Latias; now they want to try many other pokes. So people abandoned aiming to meet the Suspect voting requirements to have more time for the nUU test. The "difficulty" of meeting the requirements is only a minor reason; if people really wanted to vote on Latias, they would have tried to do so regardless of the "difficulty", as people did Skymin.

In the Skymin test, there were many people who were determined to prove her OU/Uber, so they tried to meet the voting requirements, and we ended up with over 100 people. Skymin was a new craze.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for Latias. This is not only because of the nUU test, but also because Latias has existed since 3rd Gen, and is allowed in Battle Tower, so people have had plenty of time to use Latias, as opposed to Skymin. This same argument can be said for Deoxys-E, and to a lesser extent, Garchomp.

I agree with Jumpman16 that many people aim to participate in voting systems to try out x pokemon. But there isn't really a way to change this; it's just human nature. We might as well just bribe people to try to meet the requirements.

 

[Veedrock]

The "difficulty" of meeting the requirements is only a minor reason; if people really wanted to vote on Latias, they would have tried to do so regardless of the "difficulty", as people did Skymin.

In the Skymin test, there were many people who were determined to prove her OU/Uber, so they tried to meet the voting requirements, and we ended up with over 100 people. Skymin was a new craze.

No, the two tests were completely different. The Shaymin-S test was on standard only, and didn't differentiate who participated in the test and those that just played. Most voters didn't make rating just for Shaymin-S; they had the right to vote from playing standard on its own, without any concern for the suspect. And if they have the right to vote, why not execute it? That is why the system was changed up.

I agree with Jumpman16 that many people aim to participate in voting systems to try out x pokemon. But there isn't really a way to change this; it's just human nature. We might as well just bribe people to try to meet the requirements.

As mentioned by others, getting to participate in making decisions that could effect the entire community is a reward in itself.

My "complaints" come from the system encouraging survival of the fittest amongst those that do want a say, not from there being no reward or a low participation. (I won't put words in other's mouths, so I'm only speaking for myself). I would go on about it but Jumpman simply doesn't seem to give a damn (seen by brushing aside what Tleilax without much concern and being happy that PR accessible persons are the ones voting).

 

[Jumpman16]

lol, give me a break, how did I brush aside what Tlielax said? I responded to his relatively short concern with like three times the words, and addressed everything he said. If it is true that "not everyone can compete with the better battlers on the site", then maybe that should be an indication that Aeolus, Doug and I aren't the only ones who have something to take away from this test. To be blunt maybe next time people like you who are worse (by your own admission) than the players who are both willing and able to "cram" effectively should spend more time on the test at the beginning and the middle stages.

And why shouldn't the test encourage survival of the fittest regardless? What possible compelling reason could you offer that we don't want the "fittest" deciding on the tiers of competitive pokemon for the community?

Fix your internet connection before intimating I "don't give a damn". If I really didn't give a damn, I would just have polled the badgeholders and PR users, as stated, instead of finding out through a fair, objective test that they would later comprise the majority of people who qualified anyway (which doesn't surprise me at all). I never said I was "happy" with it, don't put words in my mouth. I explicitly said that this is indicative of an inherent passion to make a difference in competitive pokemon and that likely we're letting the right people impact the tiers.

 

[iKitsune]

2 things will i be able to vote? A response would be nice numerously i have posted my achevement of the voting requirements. Secondly when i was waiting for battles and wanted to vote i managed to rouse the attentions and did exactly what jumpman said with frequent messages for everyone one to:
"GET ON SUSPECT!!!"
I was rebuffed but persevered, anyway this method did work and it goes to show that if people did more and complained alot less we wouldnt be arguing now.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Allow me to quote your point, which you reemphasized to make sure I didn't miss it (i.e. you don't get to backpedal now), from my Latias Suspect thread:

I stated in response that a desire to positively impact competitive pokemon should be the reason to use the Suspect Ladder, not a desire to use Latias. I have reiterated this response, and people like Doug, ToF and Hector have stated it in their own words as well. They are either blindly agreeing with the mighty Jumpman16, or they see that the Suspect Test Process is more than about wanting to use x pokemon.

So I would argue that you were not, in your own words, "right about the effect that the current suspect test setup had on the ladder". Just because participation did not pick up does not mean that it was because people did not want to use Latias. This is "correlation does not equal causation" at its core. I can make a much more compelling argument than you that the community is inherently lazy, and those who care about impacting competitive pokemon will do whatever it takes to make an impact, than you can that the only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder is to use the Suspect. That's all besides the point now, though, which I've stated above: maybe "24" isn't a low number, and maybe the fact that people with current PR access make up the majority of those who met the Suspect Test Requirements is not a coincidence.

I specifically stated that the part of my early predictions that you quoted was NOT what I was talking about here. I wasn't talking about the Suspect Test having shit participation because of the way the ladder was set up. I even wrote an entire paragraph about what I was "right" about. And maybe I wasn't right about that one thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the Suspect Test ladder was such a warped and freakish kind of mutant ladder where the majority of the rules of Standard didn't apply that the Suspect Test ladder was would give effectively useless stats and, in my opinion (though it's just that, and opinion) not very useful experience. The ENTIRE metagame was centered around Latias, its counters, and counters to its counters, as evidenced by the RIDICULOUS increase in Magnezone use as well as a modest increase in Dugtrio and Tyranitar.

Now as I said, this is only counting the beginning of the ladder, and I really think that before voting starts, the Suspect Test Ladder stats should be released to the public as an aid.

 

[Veedrock]

Well I apologize Jumpman. I must have read it in a different tone than you meant to imply.

I'll put aside my views against everything until the Latios test. It doesn't seem to be going very far as it stands now.

EDIT: Oh yeah, about "survival of the fittest." Normally, that should be the point (reason there is a set rating to achieve). My irritation comes from this scenario existing solely among hopeful voters, rather than among the community. (and no, I'm not suggesting we go back to the Shaymin-S system)

 

[Jumpman16]

"don't blame me"

I specifically stated that the part of my early predictions that you quoted was NOT what I was talking about here. I wasn't talking about the Suspect Test having shit participation because of the way the ladder was set up. I even wrote an entire paragraph about what I was "right" about. And maybe I wasn't right about that one thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the Suspect Test ladder was such a warped and freakish kind of mutant ladder where the majority of the rules of Standard didn't apply that the Suspect Test ladder was would give effectively useless stats and, in my opinion (though it's just that, and opinion) not very useful experience. The ENTIRE metagame was centered around Latias, its counters, and counters to its counters, as evidenced by the RIDICULOUS increase in Magnezone use as well as a modest increase in Dugtrio and Tyranitar.

Now as I said, this is only counting the beginning of the ladder, and I really think that before voting starts, the Suspect Test Ladder stats should be released to the public as an aid.

Even if that statistics show that Latias usage went up and up and up throughout the test, so what? It is up to the good players to determine whether that indicates it is uber or not, isn't it?

As far as your proposal that the test should be conducted on the Standard Ladder is concerned, how would that, in the same time span, curtail its usage (as a proportion of course) outside of the very high possibility that the people who don't use the Suspect didn't know about it? Do we really want to "fool" people into being subjects for our experiments? And do you really think that, if everyone who plays on Standard knows about the Suspect, its usage or the usage of its counters and counters to its counters wouldn't be very similar (proportionally) to what happens on he Suspect Ladder?

In reality, it's silly to assume that everyone who would play on the Standard Ladder if we put Suspects on that would be educated as to its presence and thus prepared to face it (or use it). I personally kick or ban an average of like 8-10 people a day because they don't follow the same rules that are linked to in the Welcome Message, which is all the indication I need that making sure virtually everyone knows "important thing about being/playing on this server" is an exercise in futility. But, though while I am not necessarily suggesting you or anyone else are implying that awareness of the Suspect would be just as high as it is to those who use the current Suspect Ladder, I am going to point out that awareness is very, very important to the purity of the ratings of those who do test.

Say I play well enough on the suggested "Standard Ladder + Suspect" to make the upper bound. I use said Suspect on my team and owe a lot of my success to it. But what if I only made the upper bound because the majority of the people I faced did not also use the Suspect? Ok, sure, a good team created by a user who is cognizant of the presence of the Suspect does not necessarily have to contain said Suspect, but...is that why I won? Did I beat "Suspect-less but Suspect-cognizant teams" or did I beat "Suspect-less and Suspect-oblivious teams"? I would argue that if I most played and won against the latter, I had an undeniable, clear advantage, and that those battles should in no way reflect my experience with the Suspect, because, to the Suspect-oblivious player, the metagame very literally did not contain the Suspect. When you couple that with my argument that apprising virtually everyone of important information about the server is impossible, you start to see why I don't think putting the Suspect on the Standard Ladder is a good idea. If a player can owe even one victory to the fact that his or her opponent "didn't know ubers were allowed" (and that statement is a lot less ridiculous than you may be inclined to think), his or her rating will be tainted.

And if everyone did know about the Suspect on the Standard Ladder, in what possible way would it be different from the Suspect Ladder? What do you even mean when you say "the majority of the rules of Standard didn't apply that the Suspect Test ladder"? If the same percentage of people were aware of the Suspect and thus actively aware they were participating in something, why doesn't it stand to logical reason that, if playing to win and make posted requirements in order to be able to vote, the same trends would be proportionally present?

 

[panamaxis]

The ENTIRE metagame was centered around Latias, its counters, and counters to its counters, as evidenced by the RIDICULOUS increase in Magnezone use as well as a modest increase in Dugtrio and Tyranitar.

People play the suspect ladder because they want to use latias. Therefore nearly all teams use latias. As you have to win the majority of your battles to vote it is almost always beneficial to have a latias counter in your team, because it is ON every team. If you know latias is going to be on nearly all teams, why wouldn't you take advantage of that? This will likely hold true for all suspect tesings, unless they are played on standard, but then you get a huge amount of voters that are already qualified before the test begins (and you can't reset the standard ratings or their would be a HUGE uproar).

 

[Caelum]

Jump, I would like to know your opinions on something I've been wondering about since the Deoxys-S vote and I feel has only been confirmed more-so with the Latias vote. I'd like to point out that I have participated in the other suspect tests (and quite glad to do so) so I do have some background knowledge about this and while I didn't get to be as active in the Latias test as much as I would like due to various reasons I think my points will still hold merit. Also, I do apologize if this isn't the appropriate thread (maybe this was better suited for PR) but it seemed like my concerns were being touched on in this thread by not fully delved into.

Based on my experiences with the suspect ladder in the previous tests (Garchomp, Deoxys-S) I feel that our lower bound rating requirements for bold voting may be to high. Let me elaborate. Initially when we determined that 1655 / 65 (or 1650/60 or whatever it was prior as well) we all seemed to agree that it wasn't difficult to obtain based on our experiences in the Standard ladder. However, the Suspect Ladder is quite different and we have to remember the rating system is designed to compare players just on that ladder. The Suspect Ladder consistently draws more skilled players making this 1655/65 goal much more difficult to achieve for your average / above average player. I think that the Lower Qualifications need to be reexamined and possibly reduced. For example, I could easily obtain the necessary requirements (given the time and availability like I had in the previous tests); but I don't think the entire community can reasonably obtain those standards on this more rigorous ladder. The opponents you face are more skilled and this makes the rating significantly more difficult to achieve than it would be on the standard ladder. I think almost every player who has played on both ladders consistently would agree with my statement that the Suspect Ladder is significantly more difficult to be successful on than the Standard Ladder. Add in the fact that it takes some time to get accustomed to the new strategies and play styles on the ladder and that only adds more to the problem of obtaining the rating in question. I honestly believe there are members of this community who are intelligent and experienced enough to vote, but because of the more rigorous standards on the Suspect Ladder aren't able to. The rating of 1655/65 is quite easy to obtain on the Standard Ladder but in the more competitive Suspect Ladder this isn't such an easy task. I just feel by imposing these standards on a more difficult ladder we are robbing qualified members of the community the opportunity to contribute to this process and ultimately hurts the goal of the entire project.

I don't have a particular recommendation for what these lower rating / deviation requirements should be changed too (should you even agree with my reasoning); but I do feel we should reexamine them in the near future. I think lowering them would increase the voter pool (which has notable pros and cons) but with the Bold Voting you are able to weed out (for the most part) poor voters to begin with (and if your concern is having to review too many Bold votes I would offer my services, as would many other reliable members of the community whom I believe you would trust with this). If Aeolus / Jump / Doug / Other Admins sees this as possibly relevant I could talk to Doug (assuming it is not an inconvenience to him of course) and see with playing with the qualifications changes the voter pool to try to get a better purely numerical recommendation.

I'd urge you to at least consider my arguments since I feel that by decreasing the "Lower Qualifications" this process could benefit.
----------------------------------

This is my irrelevant bit to everyone else complaining about the process. I'll freely admit I have my disagreements with the way the process has been executed, although I do agree with the basic underlying principles so they aren't massive disagreements, (and I unfortunately didn't have any simple means of making my disagreements known until the process was in full swing); but please try to be grateful that the Smogon administration is even giving the community any say at all. I want to make this clear, I encourage critique of the process (as I hope Jump, Doug, Aeolus and others active in it do) in the hopes of improving it, but please try to show a bit of gratefulness and give a clear sense in your critiques you are trying to better this process. Honestly, a lot of these critiques are coming off as just whiny bitch-fests motivated by self-interest. I don't think the process is perfect (obviously the perfect process would be my idea lol); but it is a hell of a lot better than the easy route (read: 30 minute IRC chat among badeholders / admins / mods etc) and I think we all need to be a little more understanding towards one another over this process. Once again, criticize away if you motivation is to improve this process and make competitive Pokemon the best it can possibly be. However, don't criticize just to whine and complain over it. Be constructive people!

I need to learn to ramble less. ugh.

 

[haunter]

People play the suspect ladder because they want to use latias. Therefore nearly all teams use latias. As you have to win the majority of your battles to vote it is almost always beneficial to have a latias counter in your team, because it is ON every team. If you know latias is going to be on nearly all teams, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?

I completely agree with panamaxis, if we were testing (for example) scizor, we would have seen the same usage of magnezone just because people would have predicted scizor on every team. I think that this is one of the reasons to test latias on the standard ladder, only then we'll have enough arguments to say if she's overcentralizing the metagame around certain pokemons.

Have a nice day.

 

[Jumpman16]

you and others who will continue to say/think that need to read my last post about the logistics of testing on the standard ladder, i didnt post that for fun

words

while your concern is appreciated if you had read inside scoop before typing this you would have saved yourself a lot of time, lol

 

[haunter]

you and others who will continue to say/think that need to read my last post about the logistics of testing on the standard ladder, i didnt post that for fun

Could you, please, link to this post?

edit: thanks Erazor, I supposed it was in another thread.

 

[Erazor]

Haunterfan, just scroll up the page.

 

[Famine]

when will the actual vote take place? i want to see that red in ou so badly