OU Latias

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
Taken over from Cicada, I edited the overview to my liking but otherwise its his overview



QC: PK Gaming / p2 / Colonel M
GP: Mr. Uncompetitive


[OVERVIEW]

* Latias's solid bulk and great typing make it a great offensive check to several OU threats such as Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, and Manaphy. By virtue of its typing, it forces out some Ground-types like Landorus-T, Water-types like Keldeo, and Grass-types like Mega Venusaur, and its great Speed tier further allows it to soft check Pokemon such as Kartana and Terrakion.
* It is a reliable hazard remover with access to Defog, reliable recovery, and a decent typing to do the job.
* Latiasite is not released yet, which was one of its main niches over Latios during XY. However, it still has access to Healing Wish, which is the main reason for its use over Latios; Latios still outclasses it as an attacker.
* Latias is walled by Steel-types and Fairy-types such as Tapu Lele, Magearna, Mega Metagross, and Mega Scizor.
* Its Psychic typing brings weaknesses to U-turn, Pursuit, and Knock Off.
* The arrival of new Fairy-types such as Magearna and Tapu Lele makes its job harder. In addition, Latias faces even more competition as a Psychic-type from Tapu Lele.

[SET]
name: Offensive Support
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Psyshock
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Defog / Recover
item: Soul Dew / Life Orb
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Draco Meteor hits very hard and lets Latias nail Dark-types that it can't hit with Psyshock, such as Hoopa-U and Weavile.
* Psyshock is Latias's main STAB move, as it doesn't lower Latias's stats, and it hits the Fairy-types that Draco Meteor can't hit, such as Tapu Fini and Clefable. It also is used to hit Poison-types, such as Mega Venusaur.
* Healing Wish is the main reason to use Latias over Latios and can be used to give cleaners and setup sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir, a second chance to sweep by healing them to full HP and curing status conditions such as burn and paralysis, which would otherwise cripple them.
* Defog allows Latias to remove Stealth Rock and other entry hazards for its teammates that are worn down by them easily.
* Recover is another option that lets Latias act as a more reliable check to Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y, and Keldeo.
* Psychic can be used over Psyshock to hit Pokemon such as Bold Clefable harder.

Set Details
========

* Soul Dew gives a power boost similar to Life Orb, but doesn't cause Latias to lose HP, allowing it to better check Pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y, especially when it does not have Recover.
* A Life Orb can also be used for a slight power boost, but Latias is worn down more quickly with it. If Latias has a Life Orb, Recover is even better, as it makes up for some of the the recoil damage.
* The current EV Spread and a Timid nature maximize Latias's Special Attack and Speed, allowing it to deal as much damage as possible.
* An alternative spread of 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid nature can be run to allow Latias to better check threats like Nasty Plot Thundurus, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. This EV spread allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice.
* Levitate is Latias's only available ability, but it means that Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Choice Scarf Garchomp can't use Earthquake for out of fear of momentum loss.

Usage Tips
========

* Switch Latias into Pokemon that it checks, such as Keldeo and Toxapex, in order to Defog away entry hazards for Latias's teammates.
* Predict around Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Mega Scizor. Pursuit is Latias's worst nightmare, so try to prevent giving the opponent a free switch into a Pursuit user with Latias or double switch when you predict that your opponent will switch into a Pursuit user.
* Utilize Latias's offensive capabilities to wear down the opposing team as needed. Remember that Latias can take a few resisted or even neutral hits if needed.
* Late-game, use Healing Wish in order to give one of Latias's teammates a chance to sweep. This means that you can play more recklessly with those Pokemon early-game as long as you are able to use Healing Wish later. Use Healing Wish when you predict an attacking move, not a setup move such as Swords Dance.
* Also use Healing Wish to gain momentum; using Defog or Recover typically loses momentum. Choose whether getting rid of Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Healing Wish is more important based on what your win condition is.

Team Options
========

* Latias hates Pursuit and Dark-types in general, so Pokemon that can switch into Dark-types and Knock Off, such as Keldeo, Buzzwole, and Mega Scizor, make great partners for Latias.
* Pokemon that can take on the Steel-types that Latias is walled by, such as Mega Charizard X, Heatran, and Excadrill, are great teammates.
* Dugtrio deserves a special mention, (AC) as it is able to trap and KO two of Latias's most common counters, Heatran and Tyranitar.
* Setup sweepers and cleaners that appreciate Healing Wish support, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Shift Gear Genesect, Mega Metagross, and Kartana, like having Latias as a partner.
* Pokemon that are easily worn down by entry hazards, such as Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, and Thundurus appreciate Latias's Defog support.
* Pokemon such as Mega Scizor and Pheromosa can simply click U-turn when given a free switch into Latias, so Pokemon that punish this, such as Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, are decent partners.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Calm Mind can be used with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, but was better when Latiasite was available. Substitute can be run on this set as well to allow Latias to set up on bulkier Pokemon such as Toxapex easily.
* Colbur Berry can allow Latias to survive a Pursuit or Knock Off and allow it to use Defog or hit the target with Draco Meteor.
* Latias has a lot of other coverage options such as Hidden Power Fire for Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, Surf for Heatran, and Thunderbolt for Mega Charizard Y and Azumarill. However, Latios is better offensively and typically runs these coverage moves more effectively.
* Reflect Type can be used to take on Dark-type attackers better, but Latias doesn't have a slot for it.
* Other spreads, including 160 HP / 96 SpA / 252 Spe and 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, can be used to check threats like Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y even more effectively. The former allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind while the latter maximizes Latias's bulk and Speed. With these spreads, Recover is usually better than Defog.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Neither of Latias's STAB moves hit Magearna, Mega Metagross, Jirachi, Celesteela, or other Steel-types for much damage. In return, they can set up entry hazards or hit back with powerful STAB moves.

**Fairy-types**: Many Fairy-types such as Clefable, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, and Magearna can switch into Latias's Psyshock with no problem and are immune to Draco Meteor. They force Latias to switch and can set up Stealth Rock, use Calm Mind, use Shift Gear, or hit Latias with their powerful STAB moves.

**Dark-types and Pursuit**: Dark-types such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, as well as Pursuit users such as Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross, take little, if any, damage from Psyshock and can Pursuit trap Latias, rendering it useless. However, neither Weavile nor Bisharp appreciates Draco Meteor.

**Revenge Killers**: Pokemon that are faster than Latias, such as Choice Scarf Genesect, Weavile, and Pheromosa, can hit Latias with their powerful STAB moves and prevent it from using Defog or Healing Wish.
 
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A Support set that's max HP max Speed and Timid with Soul Dew as the item is honestly a good set. Roost/Defog/STAB, and because of Soul Dew you're almost getting the Life Orb boost for your STAB. This set can come in many times and Defog safely (at full you never get OHKO'd by ScarfTar's Pursuit), which is really nice for balance teams, and big niche over Latios, who really wants Life Orb/Specs and coverage (as opposed to Defog or Recover).
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
A Support set that's max HP max Speed and Timid with Soul Dew as the item is honestly a good set. Roost/Defog/STAB, and because of Soul Dew you're almost getting the Life Orb boost for your STAB. This set can come in many times and Defog safely (at full you never get OHKO'd by ScarfTar's Pursuit), which is really nice for balance teams, and big niche over Latios, who really wants Life Orb/Specs and coverage (as opposed to Defog or Recover).
Honestly this is so similar to the main set that it doesn't deserve its own set, by I'll put the EV spread in set details.

I feel like Roost should be a secondary option alongside Healing Wish instead of Defog. Healing Wish hype is cool and all, but I've been using Offensive Latias since Gen 5 and it is a great check-everything team glue, so I think it's defensive properties should get bigger mentions.
I'll slash it with both, how's that sound?

Typically I don't reply to suggestions like this but I felt like these two needed addressing
 

Colonel M

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Don't put Recover as a slash with Healing Wish on Latias. Latias has to carve a niche over Latios and Healing Wish is the biggest reason to use Latias over Latios. Recover slashed with Defog is fine in my opinion.
 
Don't put Recover as a slash with Healing Wish on Latias. Latias has to carve a niche over Latios and Healing Wish is the biggest reason to use Latias over Latios. Recover slashed with Defog is fine in my opinion.
Well, that is Latias' other niche: while Latios is a defogger who blows up stuff while tanking some resisted/slightly weak neutral attacks, Latias is a defogger who van Tank stuff while not being too passive. I think that the way the set is now is the best, showing both of Latias advantages over her brother.
 

mulgokizary

Banned deucer.
Well, if we're going to write something like this, think first, what are the Latis' main problems? For one thing, Tapu Lele is just a better psychic-type attacker; it sets Psychic Terrain which the Latis can't even abuse when it's up. Next, the meta right now: There's a huge amount of great switchins to the lati dual stab combination right now that makes their flagship sets kinda useless. Tapu Lele is, of course, the biggest one, its typing completely shutting out most lati attacks and forcing them out with scarfed moonblast. What else comes in? Scarf gene, Metagross, Mimikyu coming in on Draco Meteor, Tapu Fini taking a pittance from Psyshock since a lot of them are bold right now, the list can go on. It only makes sense that we should take advantage of that and use effective and viable standard coverage on the Lati sets on the dex that covers some of the most viable and threatening switchins.

What coverage? HP fire? It tags every steel that switches in, but Lele is a bigger issue and it takes next to nothing due to its high Sp. D. stat. Thunderbolt? It hits a little harder, hits everything neutrally, and 2hkos Tapu Fini, but we can do better. In my opinion, Shadow Ball definitely deserves to be slashed on both Lati@s for attacking or scarfed sets. Or at least OO, but the amount of mileage this move gives to your average lati right now is just too amazing for that in my opinion. Here are some relevant calcs:

252 SpA Latias (The spread you have in the OP) Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 138-164 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
184 SpA Latias (Standard spread from last gen) Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Latias Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO (Latios 2HKOs without LO)

(Usually) a clean 2HKO without even running a life orb on bulky common switchins. If you elect to run a scarf for fast HW or something else, shadow ball cuts through common switchins like a hot knife through butter and either forces them out or kills them if they stay in.

The other coverage moves that you've also listed in OO are great options, too. Here's something else that belongs in OO in my opinion, this is a set that Latias pulls off pretty well given what it does in a match:

[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Reflect
move 3: Light Screen
move 4: Healing Wish
item: Light Clay
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: Whatever

The niche that this lati has over Alolan Ninetales is that it switches into a lot more attacking types (and comes in on a Landorus earthquake), nearly always forces a switch to a check thats hit can be lived after Light Screen gets set up, and then either sets up the other screen or passes into a sweeper. This works incredibly well in tandem with a lot of common setup sweepers including Zard X, Automotize/RP genesect/celesteela/meta/whatever, PZ, Zyg, the list can go on. Healing Wish means that you can brutalize the opposing team twice with any sweeper or switch them in on problematic attacks earlier in the game without losing your chance to sweep (i.e. Intimidate gyara forcing out a Pheromosa)

I also agree that Recover shouldn't really be slashed right now. We're in a dark/bug/fairy/whatever else type attack that fucks over Psychics metagame, you'd rather be doing something else with your one free turn.

Thanks for reading. This is my first dex post EVER. I'm super excited to help with the Smogon Pokedex this generation so I will definitely make more. Feel free to disagree with anything I said and explain why!
 
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Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Well, if we're going to write something like this, think first, what are the Latis' main problems? For one thing, Tapu Lele is just a better psychic-type attacker; it sets Psychic Terrain which the Latis can't even abuse when it's up. Next, the meta right now: There's a huge amount of great switchins to the lati dual stab combination right now that makes their flagship sets kinda useless. Tapu Lele is, of course, the biggest one, its typing completely shutting out most lati attacks and forcing them out with scarfed moonblast. What else comes in? Scarf gene, Metagross, Mimikyu coming in on Draco Meteor, Tapu Fini taking a pittance from Psyshock since a lot of them are bold right now, the list can go on. It only makes sense that we should take advantage of that and use effective and viable standard coverage on the Lati sets on the dex that covers some of the most viable and threatening switchins.

What coverage? HP fire? It tags every steel that switches in, but Lele is a bigger issue and it takes next to nothing due to its high Sp. D. stat. Thunderbolt? It hits a little harder, hits everything neutrally, and 2hkos Tapu Fini, but we can do better. In my opinion, Shadow Ball definitely deserves to be slashed on both Lati@s for attacking or scarfed sets. Or at least OO, but the amount of mileage this move gives to your average lati right now is just too amazing for that in my opinion. Here are some relevant calcs:

252 SpA Latias (The spread you have in the OP) Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 138-164 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
184 SpA Latias (Standard spread from last gen) Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Latias Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO (Latios 2HKOs without LO)

(Usually) a clean 2HKO without even running a life orb on bulky common switchins. If you elect to run a scarf for fast HW or something else, shadow ball cuts through common switchins like a hot knife through butter and either forces them out or kills them if they stay in.

The other coverage moves that you've also listed in OO are great options, too. Here's something else that belongs in OO in my opinion, this is a set that Latias pulls off pretty well given what it does in a match:

[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Reflect
move 3: Light Screen
move 4: Healing Wish/(Z)-Memento
item: Light Clay/Darkinium-Z
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: Whatever

The niche that this lati has over Alolan Ninetales is that it switches into a lot more attacking types (and comes in on a Landorus earthquake), nearly always forces a switch to a check thats hit can be lived after Light Screen gets set up, and then either sets up the other screen or passes into a sweeper. This works incredibly well in tandem with a lot of common setup sweepers including Zard X, Automotize/RP genesect/celesteela/meta/whatever, PZ, Zyg, the list can go on. Z-Memento/Healing Wish mean that you can brutalize the opposing team twice with any sweeper or switch them in on problematic attacks earlier in the game without losing your chance to sweep (i.e. Intimidate gyara forcing out a Pheromosa)

I also agree that Recover shouldn't really be slashed right now. We're in a dark/bug/fairy/whatever else type attack that fucks over Psychics metagame, you'd rather be doing something else with your one free turn.

Thanks for reading. This is my first dex post EVER. I'm super excited to help with the Smogon Pokedex this generation so I will definitely make more. Feel free to disagree with anything I said and explain why!
Shadow Ball really isn't all that good for Tapu Lele, Life Orb Psyshock does on average 45%, thanks to Psychic Terrain. This actually results in a 2HKO with rocks up. Hell, even with Soul Dew you're doing a pretty good chunk. Ill admit hitting Metagross is nifty, but Latias really has no moveslots to spare just to hit one or targers. It's not really an attacker, despite its appearance, Latios simply outclasses it if its running 3 attacks. Its more of a hazard remover, healing wish user and something that can switch into and deal with some threats like Venusaur, Keldeo, and Charizard Y once or twice in a match. It's a unique support attacker. Coverage moves don't really do anything for it, a team is better off supporting it with answers to Genesect, Metagross, etc.
 

mulgokizary

Banned deucer.
Shadow Ball really isn't all that good for Tapu Lele, Life Orb Psyshock does on average 45%, thanks to Psychic Terrain. This actually results in a 2HKO with rocks up. Hell, even with Soul Dew you're doing a pretty good chunk.
Hi, how are you doing?

Psychic Terrain only boosts psychic-type attacks made by grounded attackers, so the Lati twins are ineligible for the boost. Here are the actual calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 96-113 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 74-87 (26.3 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 108-127 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 83-98 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 11.6% chance to 3HKO

The damage is comparably pitiful and never 2hkoes after one tick of rocks, even with Life Orb, on either Lati.

I'll admit hitting Metagross is nifty, but Latias really has no moveslots to spare just to hit one or targers. It's not really an attacker, despite its appearance, Latios simply outclasses it if its running 3 attacks. Its more of a hazard remover, healing wish user and something that can switch into and deal with some threats like Venusaur, Keldeo, and Charizard Y once or twice in a match. It's a unique support attacker. Coverage moves don't really do anything for it, a team is better off supporting it with answers to Genesect, Metagross, etc.
I agree with most of the things you said here, but I definitely think that Latias has room for Shadow Ball in the current metagame, which I guess is a difference of opinion. Hitting Metagross isn't just "nifty", it completely blows open the match and gives you incredible offensive pressure and momentum. Giving Metagross and Lele free turns is definitely the biggest flaw of running Lati right now since offense doesn't really have anything that can take two attacks from either of them... it usually forces a sack. If anything it deserves to be a strong OO mention.

Thanks for reading.
 
Also, an interesting benchmark in relation to last gen's default offensive Latias: It can switch out and take one Pursuit from MegaGross when at full health, which is something her brother, for example, can't boast.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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Give 160 HP a mention in set details; it allows Latias to avoids a fairly large number of KOs of varying relevance while still having passable firepower:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 133-159 (39 - 46.6%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
68 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Latias: 237-281 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

There are also a couple of miscellaneous other things that are much more situationally useful which the spread avoids, such as uninvested Celesteela's Heavy Slam before SR and +1 uninvested Tapu Fini's Moonblast OHKO after SR, but they aren't really that relevant for what should be pretty obvious reasons which is why I didn't include them. Honestly when I run Latias I generally like to put a lot more emphasis on bulk rather than firepower as I think that's one of it's biggest selling points over Latios (hence why I've used this spread a lot).

=============================
Anyway, with that aside I have a few slightly more subjective suggestions.

First of all, I think that variants without recovery are really iffy because it can't really take best advantage of the extra bulk (and, as such, switch-in abilities) it has over Latios without it, and I also think it's not a very good Defog user anyway. In fact, I think it is a very very mediocre defogger and I would so rarely seriously consider it. As such I think Recover should be slashed before Defog or, more radically (as in maybe this is a me thing more than something that should actually happen), that Defog could potentially even be bumped down to set details for this specific reason. Leave that to QC or whatever 'cause it may just be a me thing, but I definitely think that at least for now it is probably worth swapping around the slash order 'cause genuinely I find it really difficult to find scenarios where you'd actually want to run Defog on this thing.

Also you might as well add a note in set details or usage tips (prolly set details) that Defog really isn't worth using with the bulkier spreads 'cause if you're gonna run Defog+2 attacks it is definitely best to make it as hard-hitting as possible so that it poses as an actual threat to make up for the lack of recovery on the set; literally the only niche Latias has over Latios as a Defogger is Healing Wish 'cause such a set can't take advantage of it's better bulk like Recover variants can, and as such trying to put any investment into HP is wasteful in the long run imo.

Finally, Psychic deserves a mention somewhere for it's higher overall firepower; I don't really like Shock on Latias personally because, unlike Latios (who most notably appreciates the extra firepower vs. CM Clef) it doesn't really deal much damage to most of the targets that it hits over Psychic* and just generally its nice to be able to have a more powerful no-drawback move. With a Pokemon like Latias, I generally think that power>physical damage is generally more valuable (granted I usually run bulkier vars w/o Defog where the added firepower is even more important and that it may just be a me thing), and I personally think that it deserves at least a moves mention if not a slash.

*Using the Clef example from before, it doesn't hit hard enough to really be much more useful vs. calm Clef (either way it wins the matchup, and they deal about the same damage unboosted) whereas bold Clef has a noticably worse matchup vs. Psychic (it deals 10-15% more than Shock before a CM depending on what roll you're comparing, dealing fractionally under 50% to it on a max roll).
 

Jukain

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overview

combine "Has access to Healing Wish, which is the main reason for its use over Latios." and "* Faces a lot of competition from Latios, and Latiasite is not released yet, which was one of its main niches over Latios in XY." to make a cohesive point about why latios is usually better (power) and the niche that latias provides (healing wish as an offensive support, slight extra bulk to take hits from mons it checks a bit better).
* Bad four moveslot syndrome forces it to choose between Defog, Recover, and coverage."
this point isn't that important, i would just remove it because latias just needs to craft itself to what its team requires. it's not like lacking recover kills you because the types of teams latias is used on often don't require it to pull a ton of weight defensively.

mention that latias is a good zard y check when you mention what latias checks because that's important.

set details
* Alternative spreads of 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 HP and 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, both with a Timid nature, can be run to allow Keldeo to better check threats like Manaphy, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. The former EV spread allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus, and the latter maximizes Latias's bulk and speed.
this spread is too weak, i would never run anything bulkier than the 72 hp spread. also note that there's a typo in that alternate spread, you should have 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe instead of what you currently have. you can mention bulkier spreads like 160 hp or 252 hp in oo if you want i guess, but they shouldn't be anywhere near the main set.

mention that life orb is better if you have recover because then the recoil is less of a big deal

usage tips
* Utilize Latias' wallbreaking abilities early game to weaken Pokemon such as Ferrothorn for Latias' teammates.
this isn't a thing, latias does not really wallbreak especially not weakening ferro. change this to a generalization about using latias's offensive capabilities to wear down the opposing team as appropriate (better worded than that).

you have to be a little better with telling people about how to use healing wish, like you obviously don't wanna give things free setup...you want to set up situations to use healing wish where you can get momentum and carry it to either further you in the match or win outright. this is also relevant because sometimes you want to use healing wish and not bother with defog in situations where a player might intuitively want to get rid of rocks (i.e. you are using healing wish on a pinsir). that can also be relevant to whether you get the healing wish at all because if an opponent sends in a mon that kills you after you defog then there is no healing wish, so people have to keep in mind the value of when to or when not to use healing wish based on the state of the match.

other options

get eq out of oo it's too weak...the only coverage attacks you should mention in oo are hp fire/surf/tbolt and also mention psychic as martin said. also remove specs and scarf, latias should never run those.

checks and counters

celesteela gene and jirachi should be mentioned with steels, mention chansey somewhere, more fairies (tapu lele, bulu)
---
btw re: martin don't slash defog after recover because the primary utility of latias is as an offensive support, and mons like pinsir/gyara that are weak to rocks are some of the best mons it supports.
 

PK Gaming

Persona 5
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Offensive Support

* Healing Wish is the main reason to use Latias over Latios and can be used to give cleaners and setup sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir, a second chance to sweep.
I think you could stand to be a bit more specific here, since some readers might know the full extent of Healing Wish's capabilities (that is, healing a target's HP to max and curing status)

* The current EV Spread and a Timid nature maximizes Latias' Special Attack and Speed, allowing it to wallbreak more effectively.
Change wallbreak to "deal as much damage as possible" since it's not really much of a wallbreaker.

* Setup sweepers and cleaners who appreciate Healing Wish support, such as Mega Pinsir, Porygon-Z, and Kartana like having Latias as a partner.
Porygon-Z isn't actually a good choice here since you're never going to use pre-set up, and it can only set up once. It's better to mention Pokemon like Mega Metagross, Mega Gyarados and Genesect... In other words, Pokemon that generally see a ton of action work better here. It also works great with Stealth weak Pokemon (as in, you run into a situation where you can't defog), so they should be mentioned as well.

* Latias can effectively run Dual Screens with a Light Clay in order to further allow Pokemon such as Porygon-Z to set up.
There are better, more relevant Pokemon that can be mentioned here. Magearna, Volcarona, Charizard-X, etc.

**Fairy-types**: Many Fairy-types such as Clefable, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, and Magearna can switch into Latias' Psyshock with no problem and are immune to Draco Meteor. They force Latias to switch and can set up Stealth Rock, use Calm Mind, or hit Latias with their power STAB moves.
Don't forget Shift Gear, which is absolutely devastating.

1/3
 
I think Latias checks( old and New) could make Z-Moves a viable option. For example, Shadow Ball is good against things weak to it, but OK against most other things. A Z-Move could help patch Latias' coverage moves average-ish Power.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Taken over from Cicada, I edited the overview to my liking but otherwise its his overview



QC: PK Gaming / ? / ?
GP: ?

[OVERVIEW]

* Solid bulk and great typing, great offensive check to several OU threats such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Mega Charizard Y. By virtue of its typing, it forces out some Ground-types like Landorus-T, Water-types like Keldeo, and Grass-types like Mega Venusaur.
* Reliable hazard remover with access to Defog, reliable recovery, and decent typing to do the job.
* Latiasite is not released yet, which was one of its main niches over Latios during XY. However, it still has access to Healing Wish, which is the main reason for its use over Latios. Latios still outclasses it as an attacker.
* Great speed tier allowing it to outspeed a great range of threats such as Manaphy, Kartana, Keldeo.
* It is walled by Steel-types and Fairy-types. give examples
* Its Psychic-typing brings weaknesses to U-turn, Pursuit, and Knock Off.
* The arrival of new Fairy-types such as Magearna or Tapu Lele makes its job harder. In addition, Latias faces even more competition from Tapu Lele as a Psychic-type.

[SET]
name: Offensive Support
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Psyshock
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Defog / Recover
item: Soul Dew / Life Orb
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Draco Meteor hits very hard and lets Latias nail Dark-types that it can't hit with Psyshock, such as Hoopa-U and Weavile.
* Psyshock is Latias' main STAB move as it doesn't lower Latias' stats, and it hits the Fairy-types that Draco Meteor can't hit, such as Tapu Fini and Clefable. its also the best option for hitting poison types
* Healing Wish is the main reason to use Latias over Latios and can be used to give cleaners and setup sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir, a second chance to sweep by healing them to full HP and curing status such as burn and paralysis, which would otherwise cripple them.
* Defog allows Latias to remove Stealth Rock and other hazards for its teammates who are worn down by them easily.
* Recover is another option that lets Latias act as a more reliable check to Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y, and Keldeo.

Set Details
========

* Soul Dew gives a power boost similar to Life Orb, but doesn't cause Latias to lose HP, allowing it to better check Pokemon such as Keldeo, especially when it does not have Recover.
* A Life Orb can also be used for a slight power boost, but Latias is worn down quicker with it. If Latias has a Life Orb, Recover is even better as it makes up for some of the the recoil damage.
* The current EV Spread and a Timid nature maximizes Latias' Special Attack and Speed, allowing it to deal as much damage as possible.
* An alternative spread of 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 HP with a Timid nature can be run to allow Keldeo to better check threats like Manaphy, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. This EV spread allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice.
* Levitate is Latias' only available ability, but it means that Scarf Landorus-T and Excadrill can't use Earthquake for fear of momentum loss. specify non-mold breaker drill

Usage Tips
========

* Switch Latias into Pokemon that it checks, such as Keldeo and Toxapex, in order to Defog away hazards for Latias' teammates.
* Predict around Pursuit users such as Tyranitar, Mega Scizor. Pursuit is Latias' worst nightmare, so try to prevent giving the opponent a free switch into a Pursuit user with Latias or double switch when you predict your opponent to switch into a Pursuit user.
* Utilize Latias' offensive capabilities to wear down the opposing team as needed. Remember that Latias can take a few resisted or even neutral hits if needed.
* Lategame, use Healing Wish in order to give one of Latias' teammates a chance to sweep. This means that you can play more recklessly with those Pokemon early game as long as you are able to use Healing Wish later. Use Healing Wish when you predict an attacking move, not a setup move such as Swords Dance.
* Also use Healing Wish to gain momentum; using Defog or Recover typically loses momentum. Choose whether getting rid of Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Healing Wish is more important based on what your win condition is.

Team Options
========

* Latias hates Pursuit and Dark-types in general, so Pokemon that can switch into Dark-types and Knock Off, such as Keldeo, Buzzwole, and Mega Scizor, make great partners for Latias.
* Pokemon that can take on the Steel-types that Latias is walled by, such as Mega Charizard X, Heatran, and Excadrill, are great teammates.
* Dugtrio deserves a special mention as it is able to trap and KO two of Latias' most common counters, Heatran and Tyranitar.
* Setup sweepers and cleaners who appreciate Healing Wish support, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Shift Gear Genesect, Mega Metagross and Kartana like having Latias as a partner.
* Pokemon who are easily worn down by hazards, such as Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir and Thundurus appreciate Latias' Defog support.
* Pokemon such as Genesect and Pheromosa can simply click U-turn when given a free switch into Latias, so Pokemon that punish this, such as Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, are decent partners.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Calm Mind can be used with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, but was better when Latiasite was released. Substitute can be run on this set as well to allow Latias to set up on bulkier Pokemon such as Toxapex easily.
* Colbur Berry can allow Latias to live a Pursuit or Knock Off and allow it to use Defog or hit the target with Draco Meteor.
* Latias has a lot of other coverage options such as Hidden Power Fire for Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, Surf for Heatran, and Thunderbolt for Mega Charizard Y and Azumarill. However, Latios is better offensively and typically runs these coverage moves more effectively.
* Psychic can be used over Psyshock to hit Pokemon such as Bold Clefable harder. can't you just mention this in moves alongside psyshock, psychic isn't so bad to the point where it should be dropped to oo
* Reflect Type can be used to take on Dark-type attackers better, but Latias doesn't have a slot for it.
* Other spreads, including 160 HP / 96 SpA and 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, can be used to check threats like Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y even more effectively. The former allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind while the latter maximizes Latias' bulk and Speed. With these spreads, Recover is usually better than Defog.
* Latias can effectively run Dual Screens with a Light Clay in order to further allow Pokemon such as Volcarona, Terrakion and Mega Charizard X to set up. this sounds bad pls remove

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Neither of Latias' STAB moves hit Magearna, Mega Metagross, Jirachi, Genesect, Celesteela or other Steel-types for much damage. In return, they can set up hazards or hit back with powerful STAB moves in return.

**Fairy-types**: Many Fairy-types such as Clefable, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, and Magearna can switch into Latias' Psyshock with no problem and are immune to Draco Meteor. They force Latias to switch and can set up Stealth Rock, use Calm Mind, use Shift Gear, or hit Latias with their power STAB moves.

**Dark-types and Pursuit**: Dark-types such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, as well as Pursuit users such as Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross, take little damage from Psyshock and can Pursuit trap Latias, rendering it useless. However, neither Weavile nor Bisharp appreciates Draco Meteor.

**Revenge Killers**: Pokemon that are faster than Latias, such as Choice Scarf Genesect, Weavile and Pheromosa, can hit Latias with their powerful STAB moves and prevent it from using Defog or Healing Wish.
2/3
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I feel that the first and 4th bullet points kind of get the same points across:
* Solid bulk and great typing, great offensive check to several OU threats such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Mega Charizard Y. By virtue of its typing, it forces out some Ground-types like Landorus-T, Water-types like Keldeo, and Grass-types like Mega Venusaur.
* Great speed tier allowing it to outspeed a great range of threats such as Manaphy, Kartana, Keldeo.
I would recommend merging them together in some way.

Unless you're slashing Psychic in the main set make it the last mention in the set. Currently it's above Healing Wish, Defog, and Recover, and can be seen as confusing since it's not in the slashes anywhere.
* An alternative spread of 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 HP with a Timid nature can be run to allow Keldeo to better check threats like Manaphy, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. This EV spread allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice.
Should be Speed.
* Pokemon such as Genesect and Pheromosa can simply click U-turn when given a free switch into Latias, so Pokemon that punish this, such as Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, are decent partners.
**Steel-types**: Neither of Latias' STAB moves hit Magearna, Mega Metagross, Jirachi, Genesect, Celesteela or other Steel-types for much damage. In return, they can set up hazards or hit back with powerful STAB moves in return.
Remove Genesect. Could mention Scizor here instead if you want another U-turn example.

Fix these and I'll consider it a 3/3.
 

Mr. Uncompetitive

What makes us human?
is a Contributor Alumnus
GP 1/1 (edit: oops forgot it's only 1)


Good stuff !_!

Additions, (AC) = add comma
Removals, (RC) = remove comma
Comments


[OVERVIEW]

* Latias's Solid solid bulk and great typing, (RC) make it a great offensive check to several OU threats such as Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, and Manaphy. By virtue of its typing, it forces out some Ground-types like Landorus-T, Water-types like Keldeo, and Grass-types like Mega Venusaur, and its great speed Speed tier further allows it to soft check Pokemon such as Kartana and Terrakion.
* Reliable It is a reliable hazard remover with access to Defog, reliable recovery, and a decent typing to do the job.
* Latiasite is not released yet, which was one of its main niches over Latios during XY. However, it still has access to Healing Wish, which is the main reason for its use over Latios. (remove period) ; (add semicolon) (make more sense here imo given how closely connected these two clauses are) Latios still outclasses it as an attacker.
* It Latias is walled by Steel-types and Fairy-types such as Tapu Lele, Magearna, Mega Metagross, and Mega Scizor.
* Its Psychic-typing Psychic typing brings weaknesses to U-turn, Pursuit, and Knock Off.
* The arrival of new Fairy-types such as Magearna or and Tapu Lele makes its job harder. In addition, Latias faces even more competition from Tapu Lele as a Psychic-type from Tapu Lele. (a bit subjective, but more clear imo, as it should help clarify that what's changing is the pool of Psychic-types, not Tapu Lele)

[SET]
name: Offensive Support
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Psyshock
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Defog / Recover
item: Soul Dew / Life Orb
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Draco Meteor hits very hard and lets Latias nail Dark-types that it can't hit with Psyshock, such as Hoopa-U and Weavile.
* Psyshock is Latias' Latias's main STAB move, (AC) as it doesn't lower Latias' Latias's stats, and it hits the Fairy-types that Draco Meteor can't hit, such as Tapu Fini and Clefable. It also is used to hit Poison-types, such as Mega Venusaur.
* Healing Wish is the main reason to use Latias over Latios and can be used to give cleaners and setup sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir, a second chance to sweep by healing them to full HP and curing status conditions such as burn and paralysis, which would otherwise cripple them.
* Defog allows Latias to remove Stealth Rock and other entry hazards for its teammates who that are worn down by them easily.
* Recover is another option that lets Latias act as a more reliable check to Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y, and Keldeo.
* Psychic can be used over Psyshock to hit Pokemon such as Bold Clefable harder.

Set Details
========

* Soul Dew gives a power boost similar to Life Orb, but doesn't cause Latias to lose HP, allowing it to better check Pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y, especially when it does not have Recover.
* A Life Orb can also be used for a slight power boost, but Latias is worn down quicker more quickly with it. If Latias has a Life Orb, Recover is even better, (AC) as it makes up for some of the the recoil damage.
* The current EV Spread and a Timid nature maximizes Latias' maximize Latias's Special Attack and Speed, allowing it to deal as much damage as possible.
* An alternative spread of 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid nature can be run to allow Latias to better check threats like Nasty Plot Thundurus, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. This EV spread allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice.
* Levitate is Latias' Latias's only available ability, but it means that Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Choice Scarf Garchomp can't use Earthquake for out of fear of momentum loss.

Usage Tips
========

* Switch Latias into Pokemon that it checks, such as Keldeo and Toxapex, in order to Defog away entry hazards for Latias' Latias's teammates.
* Predict around Pursuit users such as Tyranitar, (RC) and Mega Scizor (from the sentence structure that was here, it sounded like you were going to list another Pursuit user. Make changes accordingly if so.). Pursuit is Latias' Latias's worst nightmare, so try to prevent giving the opponent a free switch into a Pursuit user with Latias or double switch when you predict that your opponent to will switch into a Pursuit user.
* Utilize Latias' Latias's offensive capabilities to wear down the opposing team as needed. Remember that Latias can take a few resisted or even neutral hits if needed.
* Lategame Late-game, use Healing Wish in order to give one of Latias' Latias's teammates a chance to sweep. This means that you can play more recklessly with those Pokemon early game early-game as long as you are able to use Healing Wish later. Use Healing Wish when you predict an attacking move, not a setup move such as Swords Dance.
* Also use Healing Wish to gain momentum; using Defog or Recover typically loses momentum. Choose whether getting rid of Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Healing Wish is more important based on what your win condition is.

Team Options
========

* Latias hates Pursuit and Dark-types in general, so Pokemon that can switch into Dark-types and Knock Off, such as Keldeo, Buzzwole, and Mega Scizor, make great partners for Latias.
* Pokemon that can take on the Steel-types that Latias is walled by, such as Mega Charizard X, Heatran, and Excadrill, are great teammates.
* Dugtrio deserves a special mention, (AC) as it is able to trap and KO two of Latias' Latias's most common counters, Heatran and Tyranitar.
* Setup sweepers and cleaners who that appreciate Healing Wish support, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Shift Gear Genesect, Mega Metagross, (AC) and Kartana, (AC) like having Latias as a partner.
* Pokemon who that are easily worn down by entry hazards, such as Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, (AC) and Thundurus appreciate Latias' Latias's Defog support.
* Pokemon such as Mega Scizor and Pheromosa can simply click U-turn when given a free switch into Latias, so Pokemon that punish this, such as Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, are decent partners.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Calm Mind can be used with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, but was better when Latiasite was released available ("available" makes more sense here imo). Substitute can be run on this set as well to allow Latias to set up on bulkier Pokemon such as Toxapex easily.
* Colbur Berry can allow Latias to live survive a Pursuit or Knock Off and allow it to use Defog or hit the target with Draco Meteor.
* Latias has a lot of other coverage options such as Hidden Power Fire for Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, Surf for Heatran, and Thunderbolt for Mega Charizard Y and Azumarill. However, Latios is better offensively and typically runs these coverage moves more effectively.
* Reflect Type can be used to take on Dark-type attackers better, but Latias doesn't have a slot for it.
* Other spreads, including 160 HP / 96 SpA (are you missing 252 Spe here?) and 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, can be used to check threats like Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y even more effectively. The former allows Latias to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind while the latter maximizes Latias' Latias's bulk and Speed. With these spreads, Recover is usually better than Defog.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Neither of Latias' Latias's STAB moves hit Magearna, Mega Metagross, Jirachi, Celesteela, (AC) or other Steel-types for much damage. In return, they can set up entry hazards or hit back with powerful STAB moves in return.

**Fairy-types**: Many Fairy-types such as Clefable, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, and Magearna can switch into Latias' Latias's Psyshock with no problem and are immune to Draco Meteor. They force Latias to switch and can set up Stealth Rock, use Calm Mind, use Shift Gear, or hit Latias with their power powerful STAB moves.

**Dark-types and Pursuit**: Dark-types such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, as well as Pursuit users such as Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross, take little, (AC) if any, (AC) damage (Dark-types take no damage from Psyshock, not quite the same as little damage. This was the simplest way I could fix it while keeping it clean) from Psyshock and can Pursuit trap Latias, rendering it useless. However, neither Weavile nor Bisharp appreciates Draco Meteor.

**Revenge Killers**: Pokemon that are faster than Latias, such as Choice Scarf Genesect, Weavile, (AC) and Pheromosa, can hit Latias with their powerful STAB moves and prevent it from using Defog or Healing Wish.
 
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