LC CCAT (Version III) [Ladder Race won by iss] See Post #236

[JacobNinja]

Skittle's LO Murkrow

 

[Chieliee]

iss evio krow

 

[Delver]

Skittle's LO Murkrow

I don't get why everyone is choosing eviolite subroost, our concept is overwhelming offense, not balanced. The little bird is getting walled way too easily, and can't really punch holes early-game like we'd expect from the little bird.

since i will also be voting for iss's SubRooKrow I figured i should explain why i feel it fits with the theme and is the best choice.

1) Krow and Drifloon both have powerful, fairly nuetral STABS in flying, which are only resisted by a select few walls with recovery (lileep s first in my head, and even that is hit neutrally. As such Drifloon can easily punch holes in teams and checks with its powerful acrobatics, and krow can clean up in the late.

2) MixKrow and Drifloon perform similiar roles as wall breakers. This also goes with the theme of the CCAT without a doubt as the role of "wall breaker" and "late game sweeper" can be interchangeable between the 2 of them. Ultimately I feel the superior longevity of the SubKrow beats out the ability to deal with walls that we can very easily dedicate other slots to.

3) without being an ass, other suggestions don't really meet that criteria. We have a couple of anti-sweepers, some answers to common checks and counters for Drif as well as an assortment of random (yet effective) sweepers like scraggy or dwebble. While neither would make a particularly *bad* additions to the team, and also keep the team being offensive, they don't have similiar checks (bar maybe bronzor?).


Ultimately when we're making this team, and Blara can correct me if I'm wrong here, we're *not* making a hyper offensive team in the sense of abusing the ability to set up on a teamates checks and counters, but one that intends to *overwhelm* a teams answer to a specific type of mon by forcing it into powerful attacks.

Create a team that is meant to overwhelm a specific Pokemon's checks and counters (that isn't SandMag and is thus less well checked) in order to set up a sweep for the other thing.*

And uhhh yeah. THats why I think EvioKrow is the right answer.

 

[blarajan]

iss is shit

 

[Nozzle]

Hawkstar's Scarf Mienfoo >:3

 

[kingmidas]

iss's subkrow and are my ideas that bad that I get no votes

 

[Nozzle]

It's because Natu doesn't fit on a HO team as you stated yourself. I have no idea why my Pawniard is getting no votes though. :(

 

[Woodchuck]

iss's SubRoost Murkrow
still one of the best sets in the tier, lack of LO means it can dish out a couple hits earlygame and come back later to clean up. i prefer this over mixkrow in this case because it is harder to predict around and can outlast its checks with the help of roost. mixkrow only really outright beats porygon/tirtouga out of murkrow's most common checks, though that number swells as you add things that mixkrow can hit on the switch with heat wave like magnemite and pawniard

pawniard itself is a cool mon but i don't think defensive synergy really matters much in this case. with subroost krow and acrofloon we have very strong offensive synergy as most of these mons' checks don't have reliable recovery and these pokemon also destroy opposing hyper offense. we can supplement these two with other mons to switch into hits. I'd have a type synergy-based core in more balanced teams but that's not really what we're going for here~

 

[spuds4ever]

Iss' eviolite krow. Mixkrow isn't bad by any means, but I think we need something that can actually switch in to stuff at this point to support drifloon

 

[macle]

Iss' eviolite krow

 

[FireMage]

Hawkstar's Scarfoo

 

[Electrolyte]

So yeah with an overwhelming 10 votes iss grabs thiss nomination's spot with his SubRoost Murkrow set. Here it is:

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 20 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch

Along with:

Drifloon @ Flying Gem
Trait: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 36 SAtk / 4 Def / 4 SDef
Naive Nature
- Acrobatics
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power something else
- Destiny Bond


Now user iss gets 0.5 extra bonus points.

Time for the next round of nominations!

Concept: "Overwhelming Offense

Purpose: Create a team that is meant to overwhelm a specific Pokemon's checks and counters (that isn't SandMag and is thus less well checked) in order to set up a sweep for the other thing.*

Description: Things are easy to wear down in this tier. I'm sure spamming Fire types or Water types or Fighting types or something can lead to some sort of sweep.

Things to Consider:
Offenses greatest nemeses, Drilbur and Murkrow
Handling the tier
BEING STRONG

Sorry not much detail...just "spam Pokemon checked by the same stuff to WIN IT VIGOROUSLY"




I'll give you guys a week. Keep up the great work, guys!

 

[Electrolyte]

*
Magnemite @ Eviolite
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 240 SpA / 76 SpD
Modest nature
~Magnet Rise
~Volt Switch
~Flash Cannon
~Hidden Power Fire

So, in order to truly fulfill the concept of overwhelming offense, we need something that can handle all of the full out counters to Murkrow and Drifloon. Because investing in layers upon layers upon layers of the same type of offense leaves wide, gaping holes in our defensive backbone, I think we do need some way to cover some of the counters and checks to Murkrow and Drifloon, just so that we're not making mad dashes whenever a scarf Snover comes in. Magnemite does just that. It has great synergy both offensively and defensively with our two flying types because it resists Electric, Steel, and Rock, the three main weaknesses shared by our offensive core. It also traps Steel types that wall Drifloon and Murkrow such as Ferroseed, Bronzor, Pawniard, or other Scarf Magnemite, which bulky Evio defeats 1 v 1. Magnemite also handles the checks to the two fairly well. It can easily switch into Scarf Snover and OHKO with HP Fire or scout switch ins with Volt Switch. It can switch into Tirtouga and OHKO with Volt Switch. It can act as the team's tank and counter remover because it has all the tools it needs to support Drifloon and Murkrow.

*I am not responsible for any seizures caused by the rapid flailing of the sprite. Gaze at your own risk.

 

[iss]

Snow Warning | Choice Scarf | Naive
108 Atk / 188 SpA / 196 Spe
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Fire / Ground​

Maybe it's a good idea to not straight-up die to Sand? After all, Sand teams are one of the biggest problems for heavy offense teams- their innate speed gives them a huge advantage over even the fastest sweepers, who will most likely take damage while setting up. Drifloon can speed tie with Drilbur, but it can't kill it without getting a Destiny Bond off. Murkrow can do some nice damage with Sucker Punch, but Eviolite versions will just shrug it off. Additionally, both of our current sweepers hate Hippopotas, Lileep, and Ferroseed, three things that are heavily used on sand teams. Snover is able to patch the problem we have, as a conservatively played Snover can dismantle even the best sand teams. Choice Scarf Snover is not only easy to use, it is effective. It has decent synergy with Murkrow and Drifloon, and more importantly, they share similar counters in Steel-types. Snover can catch out Steel-types with a surprise Hidden Power, and even if your prediction fails, nothing will enjoy repeated Blizzards, Brave Birds, and Acrobatics. The passive hail also heavily benefits our sweepers, allowing them to stall with Substitute to pick up those pesky 2HKOes. Simply put, Snover plugs a critical hole in our team, while simultaneously creating opportunities for our main core to sweep, and providing that bit of extra damage with Snow Warning.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Porygon @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Trace
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SAtk / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
-Tri Attack
-Shadow Ball
-Ice Beam / Blizzard
-Trick

At the moment we need a solid check to double rush strategy, since Drilbur and Sandshrew just kill our current Pokemon. With Trace and Choice Scarf, Porygon now outspeeds them no matter what and KOs with Ice Beam. Blizzard as a replacement if we use Snover later on. Tri Attack is STAB, while Shadow Ball kills Ghost-types trying to wall us. Trick is a great move considering almost everything in LC relies on their items, especially Lileep and Bronzor which otherwise have their way with Porygon.

In other words, it screws up sand so that Drifloon and Murkrow have an easier time

 

[Chieliee]

reminding myself to post offensive heal bell chinchou, deal with sand later i guess? idk maybe i'll come up with something else

EDIT: i'm taking riolu

Riolu @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 Atk
Relaxed Nature
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Copycat
- Protect

Riolu is one of the most underrated mons in the current metagame. With Prankster and Copycat, it forms a surprisingly solid answer to many offensive pokemon, such as Drilbur, Scraggy and Misdreavus. Our current duo gets destroyed by the former two, so adding Riolu means we don't have worry about those later. Copycat allows Riolu to pretty much always move twice in a row against a fast opponent, and has amazing overall utility (i mean, hey, Riolu could even work as our SR setter!) Drain Punch is a solid STAB move, which also keeps our little fighting dog healthy (especially when used twice in a row!) Crunch is there to take out Misdreavus, Natu, and other mons that aren't hit hard by Drain Punch. Finally, Protect is there to scout the opponents move and works amazingly well with Copycat, because it allows you to use the move that the opponent just used against you. This allows you to come in on for example, Scraggy, and beat it without taking any hits. The only real downside about Riolu is that it can be quite hard to play with, but when played well, it's an absolute monster.

 

[Rowan]

Chinchou @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 52 Def / 232 SAtk / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
-Hydro Pump
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass
-Volt Switch

Choice Scarf Chinchou is a great choice for this team. Firstly, volt switch is great on an offensive team allowing you to gain momentum against your opponent. Keeping momentum on your side is a very important thing on an offensive team like this. Whilst it gains momentum through volt switch it can also conserve momentum with Volt Absorb - Magnemite and Chinchou are big threats at the moment and having a Pokemon with volt absorb discourages them from spamming volt switch stopping their momentum. It can revenge many of the pokemon that might manage to take our first 2 pokes out such as Magnemite and Archen. However it still fills the roll of Overwhelming offense - It is beaten by Lileep, Porygon and other Chinchou. However with the right move it can deal enough to damage against these pokemon for our other 2 sweepers to clean up. As you can see with the calcs below they are not fantastic, but if you hit them on the switch in it's going to get 2 hits off leaving them in a vulnerable position. From that point on you can apply enough offensive pressure to not allow them to recover. Of course we will have to decide between HP Grass and Ice Beam. Personally I think Ice Beam is the better choice which is why it's slashed first, but I think it's a decision that needs to be decided at the end factoring in the rest of the team.

Calcs

232+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-14 (38.46 - 53.84%) -- 88.67% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)
232+ SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-13 (38.46 - 50%) -- 59.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
232+ SpA Chinchou Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

 

[Celestavian]

Recycling my nomination from last round!

Porygon, Lickitung, Hippopotas, Bronzor, Chinchou, Lileep, Archen, Magnemite

This is a pretty good list, and what jumps out at me immediately is how there are a lot of Normal-, Rock-, and Steel-types on this list. Of course, the one weakness they all share in common is Fighting, and lucky for us, LC is full of them. Not just that, the "overwhelming offense" theme screams Fighting-type, and the set that I propose we use is Choice Scarf Mienfoo:

Mienfoo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spd / 36 Def
Adamant Nature
- Hi Jump Kick
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

Hi Jump Kick adds another super-powerful physical move to spam, and unlike Drifloon, it has the immediate Speed necessary to outspeed and 1-2HKO most of those threats. The only two on that list that escape the 2HKO are Bronzor and Hippopotas. It also has a fast U-turn that Mienfoo can use to put Drifloon in on predicted Earthquakes or Fighting-type moves, such as from the aforementioned Hippopotas and opposing Mienfoo. With Scarf Mienfoo on the team, there are very few physical walls that can hope to stop this trio!

 

[kingmidas]

adding to the fighting types chosen by people as their mon for a team slot timburr screams offense with priority and a great ability in a metagame filled with toxic and WOW users. And that is exactly why I nominate eviolite bulk up Timburr

Timburr @ eviolite
Trait: guts
Level: 5 (of course)
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SpD
careful nature
- Drain punch
- Mach punch
- Bulk Up
- payback

The crux of this set is the bulk up move it gives you set up time on any physical mon or mons that it can handle naturally like magnemite, bronzor, or lileep. this means also it can further inherit a higher sweeping chance by increasing its defense too while offense and a drain punch keeps you going if toxic hits it. Lastly mach punch is too stop faster or frailer treats like abra if damaged and payback prevents ghosts from setting up and counter sweeping

 

[blarajan]

Hmm, considering the list of Pokemon that check Drifloon and Murkrow, I think I can solidly present the perfect Pokemon to overwhelm them, and beat some others.

Considering the earlier list of Porygon, Lickitung, Hippopotas, Bronzor, Chinchou, Lileep, and Magnemite, the most important in my opinion are: Porygon, Chinchou, and Lileep. A super cute dude, whose most common check rests among these Pokemon is:

Tirtouga (M) @ Splash Plate
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 84 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 180 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Tail
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet

I can't imagine a Pokemon that fits the purpose of this CCAT better than Tirtouga. It sets up and is capable of sweeping on its own, while hammering down the Pokemon that check Drifloon and Murkrow. If Destiny Bond works well, we can eliminate that pesky Chinchou, Lileep, or Porygon that prevents this thing from OHKOing everything else on the opposing team. Furthermore, it provides a solid check for Murkrow, which ironically gives our current squad some trouble, while being a solid response to opposing Drilbur / Sandshrew as they can potentially smash our squad as well. Tirtouga also solidly handles Hippopotas and Archen, pre and post Smash, and puts Bronzor, Magnemite, Lileep, Chinchou, Porygon, and Lickitung in range for Drifloon or Murkrow to easily clean up afterwards. It provides a ton of use in one adorable package!!!


edit: I think some of these nominations are missing the point of the CCAT as I envisioned. The purpose was not to go "hmm, this team is Lileep weak, so let's add something like Scraggy that beats Lileep." The purpose of the team is to overwhelm the hell out of Lileep, so we more go "hmm, I have five things that Lileep is the primary check of...If I smash it via Destiny Bond or heavy hitting, the rest of my team can do some serious work." As such, I disagree with the nominations that at this point go "well, we can switch into this, and this checks this, which switch into Drifloon and Murkrow." The point is "hmm, this works in tandem with these to smash this, so eventually they can sweep." This is why I think Tirtouga is the best nomination-- +2 Stone Edge puts Lileep and such in range for Drifloon to Acrobatics or Murkrow to Brave Bird...same to Porygon, etc. We SMASH THROUGH the walls...not check them. We're not trying to just make another team based on resistances.
​

 

[spuds4ever]

Here's my proposition:

Drilbur @ Eviolite
Trait: Mold Breaker
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock

Drilbur gives our team a good couple of traits that our team really needs. While its synergy is decent, Drilbur's main perks are giving rapid spin and stealth rock while maintaining a lot of offensive pressure which we need for a heavily offensive team. Drilbur is also superior to Staryu on this team, regardless almost whatever we do to the rest of the team as he provides hazards and checks chinchou, choosing staryu and have three of our pokemon beaten by defensivechou is not a good place to be, especially seeing how reliant floon and especially krow will be on their spinner. While we are looking weak to Snover, we'll be taking a good snover counter anyway (who will most likely be Stealth rock weak too and not work very well with staryu if it wants to counter snover well as it will need sunny day+morning sun probably) so Drilbur I think is a good choice in many ways here.

Also, a note for the others, I was also thinking of magnemite, but I strongly suggest the type of hidden power is changed to ground. While this probably sounds a bit weird with it not hitting ferroseed or bronzor, hitting opposing magnemite and chinchou is more important in my view as they are more threatening to the team so far. I'd also speed creep a bit so we can take on opposing magnemite better.

 

[Electrolyte]

Alright, time for voting!

Here are the submissions:

~Electrolyte's Eviolite Magnemite
~iss's Choice Scarf Snover
~scorpdestroyer's Scarf Porygon
~chieliee's Eviolite Riolu
~corkscrew's Scarf Chinchou
~Hawkstar's Scarf Mienfoo
~kingmitus's Bulk Up Timburr
~blarajan's Shell Smash Tirtouga
~spuds4ever's Eviolite Drilbur


THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND

Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat blarajan
Concept: Overwhelming Offense

Purpose: Create a team that is meant to overwhelm a specific Pokemon's checks and counters (that isn't SandMag and is thus less well checked) in order to set up a sweep for the other thing.

Description: Things are easy to wear down in this tier. I'm sure spamming Fire types or Water types or Fighting types or something can lead to some sort of sweep.

Things to Consider:
Offenses greatest nemeses, Drilbur and Murkrow
Handling the tier
BEING STRONG

Sorry not much detail...just "spam Pokemon checked by the same stuff to WIN IT VIGOROUSLY"

the team so far

Drifloon @ Flying Gem
Trait: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 36 SAtk / 4 Def / 4 SDef
Naive Nature
- Acrobatics
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power something else
- Destiny Bond


Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 20 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch

users with bonus voting points

blarajan: +0.5
Corkscrew: +0.5
iss: +0.5

RULES:
~You should only vote for ONE ENTRY!
~You MAY NOT vote for yourself!
~You MAY NOT change your vote!

I'll give this about a week. Get voting!

 

[Elevator Music]

blarajan's Shell Smash Tirtouga

 

[Usatoday]

Iss's snover

 

[Rowan]

blarajan's Shell Smash Tirtouga

just saying, I'd like spuds to re-nominate drilbur next round though