Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)

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Fiend

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#26
We were a bit slow to update the vr, mostly due to Porygon being banned and seeing how the metagame shifts afterward (wasn’t much actually). I was also busy which is why this is coming out now instead of Monday. This being acknowledged, we have some changes to make. Overall we aim to make the VR more stringent, and for now we are ignoring D rank. I will handle that soonish. Onto the changes:


Pawniard -> A+
With Fletchling largely irrelevant, Vullaby running multiple sets that specifically beat Pawniard, and a new fairy which Pawniard cannot switch into, Pawnaird’s defensive abilities are revolved around beating Shellder and hail setters. But even these frequently pack something to hit Pawniard and make it only a check. Without a defensive presence beyond its strong Sucker Punch, Pawniard is hard pressed to get onto the field. That being said, when it does come on the field, Pawniard is just as devastating as before. Frankly absurd power when using LO, great flexibility as a revenge killer, and being a natural hole puncher keeps Pawniard extremely viable still, though not to the same extent as the S ranks. Further, the ability to maul its check and potentially OHKO them with a Z move has extreme potential and makes it especially potent.


Cutiefly -> S
Originally we were hesitant to put Cutiefly in the S rank as its stats are almost amusingly poor. Yet, Baton Passing Quiver Dances is great, especially with so many good special attackers about. Passing Speed plus bulk is good enough even some physical attackers like Timburr make great recipients. Cutiefly has also risen to be the dominating metagame force in tandem with Diglett and Vullaby, which makes it obviously S rank in the council minds.


Foongus -> A
Foongus has a lot of upsides between Regenerator, Spore, good resists, and hazing ability. Foongus is able to beat a lot of the top sweepers right now, but it has one pretty extreme flaw: being Gothita bait. And being a defensive Pokemon, this is rather detrimental especially considering that Foongus is thrown in against Volt Switch and U-turn users so frequently it is bound to be trapped.


Scraggy -> A
While Scraggy is good and all, it’s not THAT good. It only hits 22 Speed at +1 leaving it prone to being picked off by scarfers, and offensively HJK and Knock Off don’t hit too hard. There is not a definitive reason why Scraggy is not A+ material, though. This move comes chiefly from the fact that Scraggy better compares to Gastly, Snivy, Carvanha, and Ponyta than it does with Abra, Magnemite, and Gothita. This move is also fueled by the general master plan to make the VR more stringent as the meta progresses.


Chinchou -> A-
Chinchou has far less of a defensive niche this generation, as nothing amazing is walled by it besides Magnemite. As a Scarfer, Chinchou gives Cutiefly free turns, but Porygon is no longer a massive pain for it which somewhat offsets this. Additionally, Chinchou can revenge kill a variety of very threatening sweepers rather well and its coverage can be murderous with proper prediction. This drop is again fueled by the master plan of making the vr more stringent, plus the fact Chinchou has a middling at best defensive niche.


Cottonee -> A-
Again echoing the wish to make vr more stringent, but Cottonee is rather “meh” at beating the best metagame trends right now. Sun teams hardly care about it, Vullaby laughs at it, other bird do a lot to it anyway, Water-spam is so far somewhat lackluster, and the defensive threats of the tier REALLY beat Cottonee with the exceptions of Berry Juice Magnemite and Munchlax. Moreover, the metagame is generally outpacing Cottonee, further reducing its longevity.


Spritzee -> B+
This is a fairly straightforward move: Gothita really makes Spritzee a liability, but on the other hand it is strong when Gothita is not on the opposing team. Spritzee is also usually overlooked for some over new Fighting-resists such as Mareanie since its main niche over them is Wish Passing which comes with the side effect of passivity.


Tirtouga -> B+
Water spam has largely lost its popularity. Moreover, Tirtouga doesn’t really beat the common Flying-types any more and its sweeping abilities are as questionable as ever. With all of its sets being a little bit worse it better fits alongside the rest of B+.


Mareanie -> A-
Cutiefly really makes Mareanie shine, and Mareanie has most of the plusses Foongus does minus Spore. Instead it has Toxic Spikes and two pretty good STABs which prevent it from being nearly as passive as Foongus. Mareanie does have a slightly worse typing than Foongus though, and is consequently also weak to Diglett. Being weak to trappers is pretty bad for a defensive Pokemon, leaving Mareanie right where it belongs at A-.


Archen -> B
All Archen really has going for it right now is that it is a one time switch in to Vullaby and can prevent Dwebble from getting up hazards. Archen is also a decent Defogger, but its lack of longevity and inability to beat the other birds is a pretty big downside. Plus being weak to Waters and Electrics is pretty bad in the current metagame and with its SR weakness being forced out is pretty damaging.


Larvesta -> B
Larvesta does beat Cutiefly but not its BP sets. Cutie is the pivoting bug of choice for most anyway, and while this does not leave Larvesta niche-less, it does struggle to really find solid ground to stand on. Larvesta also suffers from Stone Edge Mienfoo seeing a massive uptick in usage, and Acrobatic Mienfoo also seeing sky high usage is a further detriment. Hazard stack is also godly in the current metagame, which makes supporting Larvesta very costly.


Munchlax -> A
Cutiefly and Sun make Munchlax great by itself. Munchlax is the most reliable counter to both, and the role compression it provides is more or less holding the meta together. Munchlax is generally solid with its stats and ability to handle Abra and Gastly, but with so many Fighting types around Munchlax is not perfect. Munchlax also gets worn down pretty easily seeing as everything it wants to beat is strong which forces either Rests or Recycles which can become awkward to manage when pressure is applied. Munchlax is overall on the same level as Scraggy making it very easily on the upper end of a mildly stringent mid A.


Dewpider -> B-
This was nominated a few times, and honestly is appears to be influenced by the new toy phenomenon. But Dewpider does match up well against the tier’s trappers and hits hard with a somewhat cool typing. Middling speed and a weakness to rock is damaging though, but it is about as good as most of B- even with these issues.
 
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Fiend

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#28
Just to address that question, Gothita is pretty insane overall, but it has some very harsh downsides. It has 3ish main sets, and I say 3ish because CM 3 other moves has a lot of permutations. Between these three sets, it traps far more than Diglett (in a vacuum at least), but each of these sets have some pretty notable downsides. CM Rest Goth is almost always limited to mono attacking, which has the very very bad downside of inviting some of the scariest things in. CM Rest also has a very middling impact in an matchup with offense that lacks bulky Staryu or Shadow Ball-less Abra, making it almost a deadweight. Scarf Gothita suffers similarly to CM Rest, in that it gives so many free turns to so many threatening Pokemon. In exchange for allowing more things to set up on its choice locked attacks, the scarf set is never a deadweight. The 3rd set is generally bizarre. Calm Mind STAB + 2 of anything can leave it prone to being picked off by Dark-types much like every other set, while a +3/4/5/6 T-Bolt can catch things by surprise. Rest CM two attack can be a deadweight, while Psychic Thunder Wave Magic Coat sets generally fail to reliably trap the same number of mons. This 3rd set has the least overall trapping ability, but it is also the set with the least ability to be taken advantaged of. Overall Gothita traps a lot and makes using certain Pokemon a lot less brainless and even a straight up downside, but Gothita gets completely mauled by the likes of Scraggy, Carvanha, Pawniard, and Vullaby. Pretty much everything that's Gothita bait loves having at least 1 of these on the team regardless of Gothita existing too, which makes the cost of trapping with Gothita pretty large usually. None of the S ranks have this magnitude of an opportunity cost.

I would like to discuss the potential of:
Abra being moved down to A
Larvesta being further lowered
Gastly being moved down
Chinchou being lowered as well
And a potential reshuffling of Snubbull, Croagunk, Corphish, Timburr
 
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#29
Bidoofs current rank at D is too low. Bidoof has strong defenses and HP, a huge amount of support moves, an abillity important in our meta defined by cutiefly and set up in unaware, and the abillity to deal damage back with no investment. Bidoof can reliably set rocks and shut down other hazards setters with taunt and high bulk.

Bidoof @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unaware
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Super Fang

PS: how do i get rid of that dumb ironic status for 2014 before i was banned?
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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#30
I don't usually contribute to these things, but I found a few things that I thought were a little backwards between similar Pokemon.

Mienfoo -> A+
Timburr -> S

Mienfoo is not as good this generation. Scarf Mienfoo is basically the only viable set I've seen (besides the occasional SD Pass which is good but easy to stop if you see it coming) and it fails to do basic things like counter Scraggy, Carvahna, or Pawniard (though it can technically predict a switch into them sometimes). It does a lot of damage with HJK, and Scarf U-turn Regenerator makes it great at abusing Hazards and cleaning late game staying out of priority range. That's why it's A+.

Timburr, on the other hand, is basically a staple on all of my teams. I've tried to run Foo as the favourite old bulky pivot, and it's just not doing it's job. Timburr is a more reliable Dark-type check with Mach Punch making quick work of any dark types regardless of its HP (I mean, stay out of Sucker Punch range) and Foo is too easily dropped after a Knock Off. It's usually my best shot and dropping stuff like Vullaby and Ponyta too after I hit them with one attack and then they are at 3 billion Speed and Foo otherwise is just fodder. It can run a 4th coverage move, which has for some reason, become much more viable since Spritzee is not as common. It can nail Vullaby with Ice Punch, or Foongus with Ice or Fire, or Mareanie with Thunder Punch to bust through walls that people normally rely on to stop Fighting types. Sure, sweeping with Mach Punch late game isn't as easy as sweeping with HJK, but it's 10 times better at making sure you get there.

Pumpkaboo -> A+

I find it hard to believe that Pumpkaboo is barely on people's radars. Not only is it the best Spin blocker, hands down, in the metagame, but it also serves as an awesome blanket check to Ground-types (ie. Mudbray), Electric-types, Grass-types, and Water-types. It doesn't rely on WoW for damage, it has a pretty impressive Attack stat, even though I usually use special so that I can wall Mudbray. It also has some unique sets like Charge Beam and z-Trick-Or-Treat.

Gothita -> S
Diglett -> A+

I don't know what meta you guys have been playing, but with all of the Poison-types floating around, Fairies have not been the best Fighting-counters. It's all about the Poisons, and they drop to Gothita, who can actually switch in and KO most of them. Grimer-A being the only exception, Evio Goth traps the shit out Croagunk, Bellsprout (assuming ur good at burned Sleep Clause, or run Stalk) and Foongus unlike Diglett. Gothita also does a better job paired with the massive Dark-type threats that don't give a shit about Cottonee anymore, trapping Timburr and Mienfoo much more easily than Diglett. It also traps Staryu without needing to wear it down first. I think Diglett is a better late game cleaner, but it's trapping is not as good as Gothita this generation, not by a long shot. I mean, Diglett may still be S. I just think Gothita is better this generation.
 
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Corporal Levi

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#31
Great to see you finally starting to warm up to this thread, but I only partially agree with your nominations -

Timburr definitely needs to go way up; its current ranking reflects its viability in the early Cutiefly meta. With both Fletchling and Cutiefly gone now, we can see just how great Mach Punch is in a much frailer metagame. It helps that Cottonee and Foongus are on the decline, Munchlax is on the rise, and Mareanie hype is starting to die down. Burns and paralysis being a bit less common means that Timburr can more easily forgo Guts for Iron Fist, and the removal of Download Porygon makes 18 Atk/12 SpD Timburr more viable, meaning Bulk Up-less Timburr is now a big threat. Despite Gothita being everywhere, Timburr may be even better than it was in early ORAS - this is certainly the most unpredictable that Timburr has ever been.
But in such a trapper-centric metagame, I can't see it being better than Mienfoo. Mienfoo has much more counterplay against Gothita, and synergizes well with Diglett and ScarfGoth by helping to get them into play more easily. Slowfoo + Diglett remains one of the most threatening cores around. I don't see you using trappers or hyper offense as often as some other people, which might be part of why you find Timburr to be so much more impressive.

Pumpkaboo is in a pretty good state right now and I could see it moving into the A ranks, but A+ seems like a stretch. It checks a lot of important threats and has good utility in spinblocking and spreading burns, but is itself very easy to check. Being unable to threaten some very dangerous Pokemon like Scraggy, Ponyta, and Nasty Plot Vullaby means that it requires some support, so it isn't quite as splashable as its defensive utility would initially make it seem.

Fiend outlined above pretty well why Gothita isn't in S - it's certainly not because it's not good enough, it's just not consistently great. Compared to the current S ranks, Mienfoo, Vullaby, even Timburr are almost always able to hold their own, but while there are some games where CM Gothita wins in the most annoying way possible, there are others where it doesn't do much at all. That being said, since we got rid of ranking definitions and aren't ranking strictly by effectiveness + consistency + splashability anymore, I could see Gothita being moved up because when it gets the chance to do its job, it's really, really good.
I could also see Diglett being moved down because it just doesn't seem as strong anymore. Trace Porygon being removed only helped it a little bit because Porygon never prevented it from trapping a single target, and Trace Porygon + dual Diglett-weak was already becoming relatively rare when you could just spam offensive Pokemon. On the other hand, it lost one of its best partners in Fletchling while sweeper Vullaby actually wants Pawniard alive to activate Weak Armor, and for all its utility, being setup bait for three of the best sweepers right now in Vullaby, Shellder, and Scraggy gives it some serious opportunity cost.

Abra was super fun as a way to annoy Cutiepass with Psych Up while getting around CM Gothita, but with Cutiefly out of the tier, Abra has arguably gotten even worse than it was at the end of ORAS from the various unfriendly metagame shifts. Munchlax is a sturdier check than Porygon was; Scarf Gothita is more popular and can break Abra's Sash, Grimer-Alola removes Abra from the game completely, and Diglett is still around (I think this is one trapping casualty nobody will complain about); Mienfoo is frequently Scarfed; and Nasty Plot Vullaby, Curselax, and CM Slowpoke are all sweepers that have improved from gen 6 and don't mind Abra too much.

I haven't used or faced Larvesta or Gastly enough to comment on whether they're a lot less viable now, though I guess in a way that speaks for itself.

Finally, I would like to nominate Slowpoke from B to B+. It doesn't like the increase in Vullaby and Scraggy, but it does like being able to completely mitigate major threats in Mudbray, Shellder, Ice Beam Staryu, Onix, and Sandshrew-Alola, on top of Pawniard and Chinchou being a bit less popular. CM poke and Cursepoke are both some of the best win conditions for the few semistall teams left, as they're actually fairly difficult to deal with outside of Vullaby/Scraggy, and even on bulky offense, Slowpoke can hold its own on its merits as a sweeper alone, in addition to being a great utility check.
 

Brambane

winds of winter carry me home
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#32
I agree that Timburr definitely needs to rise. I think Guts combined with the nerf to burn damage has been a huge boon to Timburr, making it an even more reliable status absorber. Some in the metagame have also been very favorable to it compared to other Fighting-types. I don't think it is S-Rank material at the moment, but I also don't think Mienfoo is S-rank at the moment either. While both have benefitted from the resurgence of Munchlax and Cutiefly being banned, I think there has been a resurgence of Flying-types in Fletchling's absence that really hurts bulky Fighting-types. Rufflet and Vullaby are two Pokemon that are getting a lot of recognition for their strength, and these Pokemon eat the bulky Fighting-types alive. Gothita's prowess at the moment only makes matters worse for two. Imo Mienfoo should drop to A+ and Timburr should rise to A.

I agree with Levi that Pumpkaboo could rise, but A+ is too much. It is definitely the most reliable spinblocker and counter to Ground-types right now, but the metagame is really unkind to Grass-types right now with Vullaby, Rufflet, Hail and Sun. I agree that Abra is not as strong right now, but I don't think its power has dropped off enough to warrant it dropping from A+, although it is pretty damn close.

I have been using Larvesta and it is not the same defensive pivot it was in Gen VI. Hazards are really strong right now, Flying-types are also really strong right now and everything seems to be running a Rock-type move (I had a Snivy use HP Rock on my Larvesta, I clicked x.) With that being said, I have been using offensive Larvesta to pretty decent effect. Leech Life is actually kind of nice, and whacking Pokemon like Staryu and Mareanie with Wild Charge is solid. Larvesta should still drop, but there is a sliver of hope for the mon.

This next part is a bit of theorymon since I have seen maybe like 2 Skrelp in the past two weeks, but I think it should drop. I am not sure how far though. Probably because of Mareanie more Pokemon seem to be running coverage to hit Water/Poison, and that inadvertently hurts Skrelp too. Defensively, Mareanie seems to offer way more. Trappers being so common also hurts Skrelp, as well as Trubbish, who just feels really REALLY weak right now. On the topic of Poison-types, imo Alolan Grimer should rise to A-. I knew this Pokemon was good, but I didn't really anticipate how strong it would be. Part of it comes from the bullshit that is Poison Touch, but Alolan Grimer is really tanky while still hitting super hard with Knock Off and Poison Jab. It is an amazing Pursuit trapper and an overall very solid Pokemon.

Morelull should drop to D. I have tried to use this Pokemon on 5 different teams and it is just so bad. It hits really hard and Spore is nice, but its just way too slow, not bulky enough, Effect Spore is too unreliable and its typing hurts it defensively too much. In a metagame where Cottonee is struggling to retain is strength, Morelull is simply too hard to use and the payoff when it does work just isn't enough to justify its team slot half the time. If you want to use a Spore mon, use Foongus. Or even fucking Paras.

There might be some bias here, but Crabrawler has really won my heart and D Rank just doesn't do it justice. As a defensive Fighting-type, it is completely outclassed by almost every other Fighting-type. But as an offensive Fighting-type, it actually does pretty well. I initially wrote off this mon, but it is more than just usable; it is a pretty strong Pokemon. Not having Knock Off more or less blocks its entry into the B-ranks imo, but it has coverage for a lot of relevant threats right now and pretty good Attack and Speed to match. Crabhammer 2HKOs Mudbray, Earthquake 2HKOs Mareanie and Stone Edge 2HKOs Nasty Plot Vullaby without rocks. This mon could easily be C/C+

tl;dr
Mienfoo -> A+
Timburr -> A
Pumpkaboo -> A-/A
Larvesta -> B
Skrelp -> B-?
Trubbish -> dumpster
Alola Grimer -> A-
Morelull -> D
Crabrawler -> C/C+
 
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Fiend

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#33
I realize this is short as hell, but I agree with everything Dracoyoshi8 said regarding mienfoo, timburr, pumpka, larvesta, & skrelp. i'd have to mull over the idea of crabrawler and morelull shuffling around, and grimer probably isn't A- though it does seem B+ material. trubbish is also not THAT bad

fyi I plan on doing a moderately large update again so make sure to nom everything you want considered! I'm possibly nuking d rank soon too
 
#34
Hi!
While many people has been talking about the pokes in the A-ranks and the B-ranks, I'm looking at the Smog Frog ranks just to see if there is anything that works. And I think I may have found it:Seel. 65/55/70 defenses, and a decent typing water, and an amazing offense move pool, I think it might be in the D-/D zone. The things that set it back, however, is there is no reliable source of recovery(although Rain with hydration might help), it's offensive stats are very unappealing, at base 45, and the fact there are better choices for its roles. Its abilities are not very good as well;Hydration, Thick Fat, and snow cloak. Although it's outclassed, I feel it has a niche with 3 prority attacks: fake out, aqua jet, and ice shard. It has Drill Run for coverage, which can KO Chinchou.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
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#35
Hi!
While many people has been talking about the pokes in the A-ranks and the B-ranks, I'm looking at the Smog Frog ranks just to see if there is anything that works. And I think I may have found it:Seel. 65/55/70 defenses, and a decent typing water, and an amazing offense move pool, I think it might be in the D-/D zone. The things that set it back, however, is there is no reliable source of recovery(although Rain with hydration might help), it's offensive stats are very unappealing, at base 45, and the fact there are better choices for its roles. Its abilities are not very good as well;Hydration, Thick Fat, and snow cloak. Although it's outclassed, I feel it has a niche with 3 prority attacks: fake out, aqua jet, and ice shard. It has Drill Run for coverage, which can KO Chinchou.
While most pokemon in LC have some niche and are technically usable, there has to be a standard cutoff for D rank. Much like there are pokemon which are technically usable in OU with the right team but are not ranked, LC has to be the same way in order for the viability rankings to have any meaning. There's some 250+ pokemon in LC, of which 150 or so are technically usable. If we had 150 pokemon in the viability rankings then it would lose a lot of meaning that it currently has.

Seel is a pokemon that fits into this role. While it does have multiple priority moves, none of them are particularly strong, and use of them takes Seel's moveslots up for little gain. While it does have Drill Run, as you mentioned, so does Goldeen, who is also able to absorb Volt Switches from Chinchou unlike Seel if you need a water type Chinchou answer.

Is Seel good? No. (sorry sparktrain) Is Seel usable on select teams, oftentimes when it's custom built for it? Yeah. But there are a lot of pokemon like that, and none of them should be even D rank.

Also we're mostly talking about A and B ranks due to the newness of the meta, and a desire to have those ranks solidified as much as possible. Discussion over the lower ranks should mostly wait until later for that reason.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
is a Pre-Contributor
#36
Aipom to B/B+

While Mudbray certainly hurts Aipoms viability quite a bit, Aipom still hits incredibly hard and teams that do not have Mudbray will often not have a solid answer to Aipom. Plus, you can switch to your Mudbray check such as Staryu/Pumpkaboo and force Mudbray out, making its defense boosts useless. Additionally, Aipom can use Fake Out to hurt Vullaby sweeps quite a bit as I believe two Fake Outs will manage to kill Vullaby. It may not be as good as it used to be before, but it definitly does not deserve to be languishing down in B-.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#37
I've been messing around a bit in LC, and upon looking at the viability rankings there are just a few things that seem out of place to me. Here's what I'd like to go over.

Vulpix-Alola up to C+/B-
Okay, it's definitely true that this thing is a pretty underwhelming offensive mon, but C us definitely understating the poor thing. It is the ONLY mon in all of LC that's able to get aurora veil down thanks to the instant hail (you aren't going to use something like hail+aurora veil smoochum, cmon) and on top of that, can function super well as a lead thanks to its ability to do this alongside pressure common leads in Hippopotas and Diglett. Overall, Vulpix can definitely put some dents in your team with 100% accurate blizzard, can set up an what is essentially both reflect and light screen but better, put weather sweeps to a stop, and partner things like Alolan Sandshrew and Torchic really well. Definitely has some niches over other hail setters.

Pikipek up to C+
This is another mon that's really being understated in C atm. It definitely faces competition from stuff like Rufflet and Vullaby, but is a really unique flying-type wallbreaker in that it can outspeed both the former and latter unboosted and can bop you typical flying type switch ins in Chinchou and Onix with a 125 base power grass move that breaks sturdy. On top of that, it's got room for steel coverage in brick break and just has such a notable niche over other flying types that it's ridiculous to me that it is among things it's better and more consistent than in Geodude and Inkay and Teddiursa.

Timburr up to A-
This one's already been discussed quite a bit, but I strongly believe that Timburr has quite a bit going for it now that Cutiefly's out of the tier. Cutiefly really compromised Timburr's viability, and now that it's been banned and fairy types like Cottonee and Spritzee have become less viable and declined in usage, Timburr's able to really shine as a bulky pivot. The burn nerf allows it to absorb status even more reliably, and its bulk up set has returned to a similar level of consistency as in gen 6. Sure, Mudbray's a problem for it, but this thing becomes beyond threatening when Mudbray and fairies have been removed, especially given that nothing in LC likes switching into knock off, unboosted or boosted.

As for other things I think should move up/down but don't feel as passionately about or think have been covered, Aipom should move up, as its still able to rip holes in teams and is absolutely terrifying with Mudbray gone (its Mudbray weakness allows it to partner stuff like Staryu really well nowadays, I should add). Lastly, I think Zigzagoon and Buneary should share a rank, whether it's Buneary moving up or Zigzagoon down. The two are very similar in that they both turn into terrifying sweepers with Espeed/quick attack and near-maximized attack, but Buneary has the benefit of drain punch, the elemental punches and baton pass while Zigzagoon struggles with coverage sometimes and often dies if it doesn't kill its opponent. Thanks for reading, everyone! And let me know what you think :)
 
#38
The last two changes to LC have been really huge. Although I disagree with banning the two mons, Porygon and Cutiefly, rather than banning the moves that made them clearly overpowered in LC (In each case, they were the only pokemon in the entire LC metagame capable of learning Conversion/Z-conversion and Quiver Dance respectively. If you banned quiver dance, cutiefly would still have ways of being checked and could reliably be revenge killed and or trapped. And banning conversion from porygon in no way, shape, or form would have made a single difference to anything other than Porygon.) Regardless, this isn't the place for that I don't think. If it is though, I'd love to give my argument regarding that. Anyway, there are a few things that I want to mention concerning the LC meta at present.
1) Vullaby seems to be over-centralising part of the entire LC meta around itself. I might be overstating this, or perhaps what I have to say about this could have a grain of truth to it. Think about it. Vullaby has a fairly large plethora of viable sets that it can use. On top of this, Vullaby has a really solid typing, good bulk, and is something that at this moment in time virtually requires a team to have an answer for it. The nasty plot sweeper set is very formidable. It only takes one nasty plot to threaten beating a team. Scarfed pokemon don't check it either unless they immediately double into the fray and Vullaby doesn't get its weak armor boost. However... The next problem arises: Vullaby's bulk. Don't try to deny it. Vullaby has very nice bulk, especially with eviolite. That in itself can make it even more dangerous because it isn't as simple to run something scarfed or something that outspeeds Vullaby that can rack in a kill. And in teambuilding the issue only furthers itself because no matter how you prep, each vullaby set is different. So say you predict a nasty plot set and you try to get your scarfed shellder (or any other reasonable example of a check/counter to NP Vullaby while vullaby hasn't increased its speed via weak armor). If it nasty plots, yay for you. But, what if you get hit with Brave Bird, Knock Off, or Vullaby pivots out with U-turn? Vullaby has a lot of options at its disposal. It has a fairly customizable spread to top everything off. So why do I say it seems to be over centralising? Well, that's just it. Usage doesn't equal true viability. But look at how much potential influence it has over the entire LC metagame. Look at the way people are running Mienfoo now. That wasn't just Cutiefly's influence (and scarf didn't solve a damn thing about quiver dance. It did about calm mind though). Abra is so much more difficult to run now because having a trapper, namely gothita, is more useful. Think about how Timburr doesn't beat Vullaby 1v1 if it isn't weak armor. That's another issue I'd like to point out because I noticed an argument for the mach punch being able to beat down vullaby's NP set. Well it doesn't do jack to roost+3 attacks or the defog variant. And another problem is the counter. Given dark+flying stab, either physical, special, or even mixed, how are you supposed to counter that reliably? You could lose an item. It can pivot. And how many things actually resist Dark and Flying in LC? Pawniard, which loses to the NP variant? I've seens teams without ways of handing a vullaby, but they were solid builds. Unfortunately they didn't handle vullaby and thus had little viability in LC. I've seen teams that handle Vullaby, but that's when it actually gets to being recognizable that Vullaby is potentially over centralising the metagame. I'll say it like this: Think about how many different cores you can create with all viable vullaby sets. Vullaby+Timburr/Scraggy/Mienfoo+Staryu, Vullaby+Pumpkaboo+Shellder, Vullaby+Mareanie+Hippopotas, etc etc. I understand that the LC meta is still new and adjusting, but when you have to deal with the various types of cores vullaby can form, and specifically with the different types of vullaby itself, things get trippy. Now that you have a way to beat Vullaby, how competent is your team against teams without it and or teams that have threats you can't handle unless you want to lose your answer to vullaby? That's what I mean by potential. Now, make note, I'm not arguing that Vullaby is actually over centralising the metagame, I'm only saying that it has the potential to do so and that we need to look into it closer.
2) We've actually gotten to a point in LC where we could possibly suspect test some of our prior banned mons back into LC. Possibly Misdreavus or Swirlix for example. I don't think it would hurt to at least suspect some of them just to see if they could be placed back down.
3) Can we please talk about Hippopotas for a minute? I know that Hippopotas wasn't all that great in ORAS. It was good, not great. Just good. Usable. Well... now that I've used it as a bulky hazard setter, I am very impressed with the results because it does actually hit pretty hard, I mean it's STAB EQ with 1HP damage from sand. It has reliable recovery, and its bulk is too real. Whirlwind is also invaluable in the metagame right now. (Baby Curselax, NP Vullaby, Scraggy, Timburr, not a water type sweeper, not a snivy sweeper). And even then, being able to phaze and get chip damage is always useful. I understand that there isn't a lot to Hippo in general. But rather than being on a sand team, I honestly think that Hippo brings something else to the table as far as viability is concerned. Bulk and utility. And lots of it. A- rank at least.
4) Mienfoo is not going anywhere from its viability. It's bulky. It pivots. It removes items. It's a versatile offensive counter and check to a huge variety of mons available in LC. Mienfoo does actually hit pretty hard. It forms several unique types of cores in teambuilding. Last but not least, Mienfoo is not nor has it ever been lacking with any trait. It's movepool is fantastic and its stats are solid all around. Mienfoo is just a great pokemon. It just isn't the main pokemon of LC anymore. Now Vullaby is arguably the main pokemon of LC. Mienfoo - Stays S rank
5) Bidoof is a piece of hot garbage. Just like Communism, it seems great on paper. But it sucks in practice. The same goes for a lot of other pokemon who generally are not at all considered viable as far as our current rankings stands. If there's something C rank that could move up to B, go on ahead with your bad self and argue for that. (scarf Pikipek imo could be a good reason for Pikipek to move up).
6) Morelull is actually not bad. I've used it here and there when I wanted to just try it out, and it never really did badly. I've actually taken a much greater liking to it than foongus just because of the threat I could run into gothita and lose foongus instantly. Morelull is actually not shy on offense either. Moonblast isn't a simple move to switch straight into. Morelull is actually able to keep Vullaby from coming onto the field directly and Air Slash doesn't OHKO from full. Brave Bird does, but that's not the variant I'm concerned with. And either way, Vullaby can't risk switching directly into morelull. Strength sap is a very unique move that recovers HP based on the attack stat of the target, then drops its attack by 1 stage. That's actually more useful in practice than you'd think. You lower something's attack, and if you could lose the matchup of something that switches into it, say sandshrew-Alola for convenience sake, its attack drops which would then allow a teammate more breathing room to counter. I don't know where exactly I'd put Morelull, but I suppose C+ rank would be a fair place. Maybe even B- but I feel that's a stretch.

That's all I wanted to mention. If talking about my issues with the ban on porygon and Cutiefly in the first parts of this post are frowned upon, shame on me - I just wanted to mention it, you know... Give it some slight attention.

(edit: thank you Merritt for pointing me in the right direction. I just mentioned swirlix because I couldn't think of anything else. I also never played when swirlix was legal in LC, but I can see how crazy it would be.)
 
Last edited:

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributor
#39
The last two changes to LC have been really huge. Although I disagree with banning the two mons, Porygon and Cutiefly, rather than banning the moves that made them clearly overpowered in LC (In each case, they were the only pokemon in the entire LC metagame capable of learning Conversion/Z-conversion and Quiver Dance respectively. If you banned quiver dance, cutiefly would still have ways of being checked and could reliably be revenge killed and or trapped. And banning conversion from porygon in no way, shape, or form would have made a single difference to anything other than Porygon.) Regardless, this isn't the place for that I don't think. If it is though, I'd love to give my argument regarding that. Anyway, there are a few things that I want to mention concerning the LC meta at present.
1) Vullaby seems to be over-centralising part of the entire LC meta around itself. I might be overstating this, or perhaps what I have to say about this could have a grain of truth to it. Think about it. Vullaby has a fairly large plethora of viable sets that it can use. On top of this, Vullaby has a really solid typing, good bulk, and is something that at this moment in time virtually requires a team to have an answer for it. The nasty plot sweeper set is very formidable. It only takes one nasty plot to threaten beating a team. Scarfed pokemon don't check it either unless they immediately double into the fray and Vullaby doesn't get its weak armor boost. However... The next problem arises: Vullaby's bulk. Don't try to deny it. Vullaby has very nice bulk, especially with eviolite. That in itself can make it even more dangerous because it isn't as simple to run something scarfed or something that outspeeds Vullaby that can rack in a kill. And in teambuilding the issue only furthers itself because no matter how you prep, each vullaby set is different. So say you predict a nasty plot set and you try to get your scarfed shellder (or any other reasonable example of a check/counter to NP Vullaby while vullaby hasn't increased its speed via weak armor). If it nasty plots, yay for you. But, what if you get hit with Brave Bird, Knock Off, or Vullaby pivots out with U-turn? Vullaby has a lot of options at its disposal. It has a fairly customizable spread to top everything off. So why do I say it seems to be over centralising? Well, that's just it. Usage doesn't equal true viability. But look at how much potential influence it has over the entire LC metagame. Look at the way people are running Mienfoo now. That wasn't just Cutiefly's influence (and scarf didn't solve a damn thing about quiver dance. It did about calm mind though). Abra is so much more difficult to run now because having a trapper, namely gothita, is more useful. Think about how Timburr doesn't beat Vullaby 1v1 if it isn't weak armor. That's another issue I'd like to point out because I noticed an argument for the mach punch being able to beat down vullaby's NP set. Well it doesn't do jack to roost+3 attacks or the defog variant. And another problem is the counter. Given dark+flying stab, either physical, special, or even mixed, how are you supposed to counter that reliably? You could lose an item. It can pivot. And how many things actually resist Dark and Flying in LC? Pawniard, which loses to the NP variant? I've seens teams without ways of handing a vullaby, but they were solid builds. Unfortunately they didn't handle vullaby and thus had little viability in LC. I've seen teams that handle Vullaby, but that's when it actually gets to being recognizable that Vullaby is potentially over centralising the metagame. I'll say it like this: Think about how many different cores you can create with all viable vullaby sets. Vullaby+Timburr/Scraggy/Mienfoo+Staryu, Vullaby+Pumpkaboo+Shellder, Vullaby+Mareanie+Hippopotas, etc etc. I understand that the LC meta is still new and adjusting, but when you have to deal with the various types of cores vullaby can form, and specifically with the different types of vullaby itself, things get trippy. Now that you have a way to beat Vullaby, how competent is your team against teams without it and or teams that have threats you can't handle unless you want to lose your answer to vullaby? That's what I mean by potential. Now, make note, I'm not arguing that Vullaby is actually over centralising the metagame, I'm only saying that it has the potential to do so and that we need to look into it closer.
2) We've actually gotten to a point in LC where we could possibly suspect test some of our prior banned mons back into LC. Possibly Misdreavus or Swirlix for example. I don't think it would hurt to at least suspect them just to see if they could be placed back down.
Yeah, the correct place for this is the Metagame Discussion Thread, since this really is about the viability rankings rather than suspects. also Swirlix is ludicrously broken don't bring that up over there

Meanwhile, Vulpix-A really should move up. While it's not the most threatening mon ever, it has decent enough offensive options to make switching in difficult for a decent amount of the metagame, and Aurora Veil is a fantastic support option that fits even on non-weather teams. Honestly purely for that support ability I'd use Vulpix-A as the weather setter of choice on hail teams - getting up dual screens in one turn is amazingly helpful for any offensive mon or sweeper under hail. While I wouldn't call it outclassing Snover due to Snover's ability to go somewhat mixed far better, it's almost certainly a better option on a majority of teams. Freeze Dry is a very interesting move for water types that try to switch in, and Moonblast can nail Fighting types that are problematic for hail.

It's certainly better than C, and should honestly go to B- for its support capabilities.
 
#40
Rattata-Alola

A mon I have used a decent amout before and once Porygon was banned. Sadly used it as much as I did like after Cutiefly was banned.
Rattata-Alola unlike it's Kanto counterpart is simply monsterous. Having acces to near optimal coverage with just Return + Crunch only not being able to 2HKO Pawniard and Snubbull. Besides that Rattata-Alola reaches 17 speed and 15 attack. While this attack stat isn't high, Hustle and a LO boost suddenly make it able to ballence break and wallbreak respectively. Getting acces to a large list of utility moves in STAB Sucker Punch, STAB Pursuit and the always nice U-turn to pivot especially against Pawniard/Snubbull.
Now Hustle as we all know has the irritating side effect of droping accuracy down meaning any move even the safe U-turn will be more riskfull at 80%.
While this is unfortunat, that doesn't prevent it from being an insanely threatening pokemon, but does prevent you from using it on every team.
It's defences also have obvious downsides and being 4x weak to Mach/Vacuum Wave doesn't help either.
Reguardless, I think this mon is highly underrespresented by it's current D-rank and did even go as far as say it is worth C+ rank or more as it has compairable and even exceeding qualities to simalar ranked mons like Bunnelby and Darumaka in having stronger Priority, better speed and better overall utility
(Pursuit/less switchins) but lacking in accuracy all compaired to Bunnelby who, has previously been ranked even higher then it's current B- possition.
For those wondering for some calcs:

----------All Mons in S to B+ it beats that are worth calcing defensively for:
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 4-6 (19 - 28.5%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 5-8 (21.7 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 164 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola U-turn vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 6-9 (24 - 36%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 204 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 236 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 76 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 18-26 (81.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Cottonee: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 29-35 (96.6 - 116.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(29, 29, 29, 29, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 35)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 23-29 (100 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 29)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Grimer: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Archen: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Amaura: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Sandshrew-Alola: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Rufflet: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Doduo: 21-25 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-26 (66.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Rufflet: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

----------Counters it ''loses'' to: Pawniard, Snubbull, Defensive-Tirtouga and Timburr
-1 228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
-1 228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola U-turn vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 6-9 (28.5 - 42.8%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

I think these calcs show why I dislike Double Edge when Rocks are kinda needed anyway. It also showcases how easly certain mons, not just this one, can break most defense in the metagame down to a handfull of things.

All this info was mainly oriented around the LO set where as some people have noticed me to point out the use of Scarf on it. I don't exactly agree with that as it's as it misses out on some damage difference and the utility in Sucker Punch but it's worth a mention. It shows even more offensive use to compete with Scarfed Darumaka and even much higher pokemon like Rufflet. (Even with the Brave Bird-lacking set in mind)

I hope this was a clear enough description of how good Rattata-Alola is and why it should deserve a simalar ranking to Bunnebly in the range of C+ and B-.
 
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zf

take it easy, amigo
is a Tiering Contributoris a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
#41

Staryu -> S
  • Most splashable pokemon right now; fills many relevant roles for just 1 teamslot and has the flexibility to provide whatever your team needs
  • Best spinner; it beats most SR setters and spinblockers
  • Strong check to ground, rock, fire, and water types
  • High speed; good revenge killer and a hard-to-revenge cleaner (now that Analytic is legal with all moves)
  • Analytic is a godsend; fixes Goth problem for Spin + Recover sets and makes offensive sets damn near impossible to switch in to
  • Abuses current meta trends of Rock type SR setters + Pumpkaboo / teams that rely on RestTalk Goth to beat it. Pairs well with top threats like Vullaby.


Timburr -> S
  • Porygon ban / burn nerf means 18 Atk / Iron Fist sets are good, which open up many coverage options that beat "checks"
  • Pairs well with current meta trends; CM Goth / Vullaby are both good partners
  • Hard-to-trap pokemon with Fighting type priority; it's a unique niche that lets it check Shell Smashers, offensive darks (Scraggy cores are especially relevant) / steels, and weakened mons in general
  • Objectively best fighter n_n


Mienfoo -> A+
  • Bulky pivot got worse; 2HKO'd by most top threats and doesn't fare well against darkspam teams
  • SD Pass is done better by Rowlet
  • Scarf is good


Diglett -> A+
  • Not many good U-turn users to pair it with (Fletch is dead, Vullaby would rather be sweeping), making it much harder to consistently trap targets
  • Still good at trapping / supporting sweepers, just less consistent


Munchlax -> B
  • Cutiefly ban means fighters are good again and the only relevant mon it checked is no longer in the tier
 
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#42


you see that steely-eyed stare. dats the look of a pokemon that will fuck your girlfriend without remorse. ofc that assumes you are a spritzee and "fuck your girlfriend" is a metaphor for "lay hazards that are considerably harder to spin away now that floon just chills and blocks". ofc u could use analytic evio star. but ferroseed still doesnt care. it just comes in and puts em up again. A-rank for this mon.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#43
Rattata-Alola

A mon I have used a decent amout before and once Porygon was banned. Sadly used it as much as I did like after Cutiefly was banned.
Rattata-Alola unlike it's Kanto counterpart is simply monsterous. Having acces to near optimal coverage with just Return + Crunch only not being able to 2HKO Pawniard and Snubbull. Besides that Rattata-Alola reaches 17 speed and 15 attack. While this attack stat isn't high, Hustle and a LO boost suddenly make it able to ballence break and wallbreak respectively. Getting acces to a large list of utility moves in STAB Sucker Punch, STAB Pursuit and the always nice U-turn to pivot especially against Pawniard/Snubbull.
Now Hustle as we all know has the irritating side effect of droping accuracy down meaning any move even the safe U-turn will be more riskfull at 80%.
While this is unfortunat, that doesn't prevent it from being an insanely threatening pokemon, but does prevent you from using it on every team.
It's defences also have obvious downsides and being 4x weak to Mach/Vacuum Wave doesn't help either.
Reguardless, I think this mon is highly underrespresented by it's current D-rank and did even go as far as say it is worth C+ rank or more as it has compairable and even exceeding qualities to simalar ranked mons like Bunnelby and Darumaka in having stronger Priority, better speed and better overall utility
(Pursuit/less switchins) but lacking in accuracy all compaired to Bunnelby who, has previously been ranked even higher then it's current B- possition.
For those wondering for some calcs:

----------All Mons in S to B+ it beats that are worth calcing defensively for:
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 4-6 (19 - 28.5%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 5-8 (21.7 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 164 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola U-turn vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 6-9 (24 - 36%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 204 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 236 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 76 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 18-26 (81.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Cottonee: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 29-35 (96.6 - 116.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(29, 29, 29, 29, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 35)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 23-29 (100 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 29)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Grimer: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Archen: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Amaura: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Sandshrew-Alola: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Rufflet: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Doduo: 21-25 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-26 (66.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Rufflet: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

----------Counters it ''loses'' to: Pawniard, Snubbull, Defensive-Tirtouga and Timburr
-1 228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
-1 228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola U-turn vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 6-9 (28.5 - 42.8%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

I think these calcs show why I dislike Double Edge when Rocks are kinda needed anyway. It also showcases how easly certain mons, not just this one, can break most defense in the metagame down to a handfull of things.

All this info was mainly oriented around the LO set where as some people have noticed me to point out the use of Scarf on it. I don't exactly agree with that as it's as it misses out on some damage difference and the utility in Sucker Punch but it's worth a mention. It shows even more offensive use to compete with Scarfed Darumaka and even much higher pokemon like Rufflet. (Even with the Brave Bird-lacking set in mind)

I hope this was a clear enough description of how good Rattata-Alola is and why it should deserve a simalar ranking to Bunnebly in the range of C+ and B-.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm going to have to whole-heartedly disagree with this nom. Alolan Rattata is certainly better than its regular form, but is nowhere near as good as the likes of Bunnelby. It has shitty bulk, a 4x weakness to fighting in a tier dominated by Mienfoo and Timburr, and doesn't actually beat anything you calced, considering Croagunk and Timburr carry priority and none of those mons bar Tirtouga are going to try switching in anyway unless its via U-turn. Accuracy is also a huge problem for rattata, since you're susceptible to missing a sealed KO with sucker punch and can't use U-turn to gain momentum. It also faces stiff competition from stuff like Pawniard and Vullaby as an offensive dark, and from Buneary, Zigzagoon and Aipom as an offensive normal. If anything, this thing should drop to smog frog rank considering Mudbray's presence is just the nail in the coffin among all these other flaws.
 
#44
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm going to have to whole-heartedly disagree with this nom. Alolan Rattata is certainly better than its regular form, but is nowhere near as good as the likes of Bunnelby. It has shitty bulk, a 4x weakness to fighting in a tier dominated by Mienfoo and Timburr, and doesn't actually beat anything you calced, considering Croagunk and Timburr carry priority and none of those mons bar Tirtouga are going to try switching in anyway unless its via U-turn. Accuracy is also a huge problem for rattata, since you're susceptible to missing a sealed KO with sucker punch and can't use U-turn to gain momentum. It also faces stiff competition from stuff like Pawniard and Vullaby as an offensive dark, and from Buneary, Zigzagoon and Aipom as an offensive normal. If anything, this thing should drop to smog frog rank considering Mudbray's presence is just the nail in the coffin among all these other flaws.
I don't mean to offend your answer with this but my point is in the fact it's simply impossible to switch into. Ranging from Fight type to various defensive answers. Mudbray as well as multiple other pokemon of similar defensive form aren't able to handle this mons offense as shown by the calcs(Mudbray can't switch in but it can check Rattata utilizing one of multiple sets unlike allot of pokemon). However I do agree that the accuracy is a major issue for being able to beat answers reliably, I did add to that it should be shown in terms of viability. (Addressed in my post)
As for your suggestion of Bunnelby. Bunnelby hits a lower speed tier being unable to reach the important 17 speed tier meaning pokemon like Mienfoo can check it reliably(Even if you are Scarfed), weaker priority(including with Adamant Hugh Power), worse coverage overall even when taking in account the multiple things it can run to deal with most answers and suffers equally as much from horrible defenses(it actually has the exactly same defenses) in every aspect bar the Fight priority. I also addressed this weakness to Fighting priority in my post.
A mon to compare your point of accuracy with would be Darumaka who by the same argument did be worse in even more aspects bar that only Larvesta outclasses it's main utility, existing Mudbray and omnipresence of Water type specifically with Mudbrays answeres being more common would render it unusable. And as we all know, Darumaka has viable utility and is a moderately fearable threat.
 

Fiend

the hound.
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#45
We're going for the middle ground of most of the extreme movements; most of these will be affected again, once the suspect results happen, but for now this is what the general consensus is:

Timburr up to S
Diglett down to A+
Munchlax down to A-
Staryu up to A+
Abra down to A
Pumpkaboo up to A-
Grimer-A up to B+
Croagunk down to B+
Larvesta down to B-
Crabrawler up to C
Aipom up to B
Vulpix-A up to B-
Pikipek up to C+
Slowpoke up to B+

D rank shall be discussed once the suspect ends.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
#46
Ok so a few questions about Vulpix-A: Why are we looking at Vulpix on its own? What does it do better than other Hail setters other than Aurora Veil? Even with Aurora Veil, why are we treating it as much better than it is, which is just a 5 turn Eviolite for a whole team?

I think Vulpix-A should be C+ as it surely isn't as good as either of the other 2 main Hail setters. Snover can help Sandshrew-A (since Cubchoo is bad) check Water-types and can take advantage of Ice Shard, making it great support for Hail squads. Amaura, on the other hand, ins't locked to being on hail teams, as it has its own niche even without them. It can also set up SR for Shrew which can be VERY important. Vulpix however, has Aurora Veil. That is its only edge over the other 2 other than Moonblast which is usually just for speed tying Mienfoo. I don't see how it can be the same rank as Amaura, but I would support both it and Snover moved down to C+

I would genuinely like to see an argument against this, as I'm trying to perfect hail teams :)
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
is a Pre-Contributor
#47
I don't know much about hail teams, but I think Aurora Veil is more than "just a 5 turn Eviolite for a whole team". Damage being halved against your whole team is a pretty big deal: for mons holding an Eviolite already, they essentially have a +2 boost to both their defenses. Being the only mon in all of LC able to set dual screens in 1 turn is impressive enough to be, at the very least, better than C+. Vulpix-A seems to me like a utility mon with a bonus of interesting attack options (100% accurate blizzard and moonblast). It might not be able to do much on its own, but with Aurora Veil up, practically any mon can come in and set up. Heck, with that boost, even Zigzagoon can set up on Mienfoo although thats a bad idea in general.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributor
#48
Ok so a few questions about Vulpix-A: Why are we looking at Vulpix on its own? What does it do better than other Hail setters other than Aurora Veil? Even with Aurora Veil, why are we treating it as much better than it is, which is just a 5 turn Eviolite for a whole team?

I think Vulpix-A should be C+ as it surely isn't as good as either of the other 2 main Hail setters. Snover can help Sandshrew-A (since Cubchoo is bad) check Water-types and can take advantage of Ice Shard, making it great support for Hail squads. Amaura, on the other hand, ins't locked to being on hail teams, as it has its own niche even without them. It can also set up SR for Shrew which can be VERY important. Vulpix however, has Aurora Veil. That is its only edge over the other 2 other than Moonblast which is usually just for speed tying Mienfoo. I don't see how it can be the same rank as Amaura, but I would support both it and Snover moved down to C+

I would genuinely like to see an argument against this, as I'm trying to perfect hail teams :)
Sure! So the first thing to note is that screens are really, really effective. As in, way better than eviolite. Almost to a stupid degree, really.

116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha through Reflect: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandshrew-Alola through Reflect: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra through Reflect: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Vulpix-A sets up both layers of screens in one turn. This isn't just good for hail, but also for just standard, run of the mill, non-Sandshrew-A teams. While hail isn't the greatest thing ever to have falling on your team, the ability to not be OHKOed by anything bar a very strong super effective hit on a relatively frail mon is very valuable. It also makes Vulpix-A much easier to switch out with than Amaura or Snover, since whatever comes in will take the next hit quite well as long as you make a reasonable switch (please don't switch Sandshrew-A directly into the Mienfoo).

So that's a huge part of how Alolapix is a really useful mon on even non-hail teams. The other side of this is, of course, why use Alolapix on hail over the other setters? The main reason is because Alolapix is Not Slow.

Because Snover and Amaura are slow, they very rarely can afford to run an item other than scarf or eviolite (or berry juice). If they run Icy Rock then they run a significant risk of not having nearly as much use on their own, largely due to their many many weaknesses. Alolapix, on the other hand, is fast enough that it can run Icy Rock to extend hail turns, much like its fire type cousin. This means Sandshrew-A has more turns to sweep, is more easily capable of sparing a turn to use Swords Dance if you want, and allows much greater flexibility in waiting to switch Sandshrew-A in. While Amaura and Snover can theoretically run an Icy Rock set, they're far better served by running one of the other three items I mentioned.

The Icy Rock reasoning also can be extended into being able to run Light Clay Vulpix-A as a standalone mon, giving you even more turns of screen help.

In short, is Vulpix-A a fantastic mon? Ehhh. Is Vulpix-A a valuable support mon who is fairly fast and not overly weak? Yes. That is why it deserves B-, although it probably shouldn't go any higher than that.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#49
Jesus I've posted a shit ton on this page
I definitely plan to advocate for a few more things to rise and drop soon (Buneary for B all the way!) but since I don't want to jampack this post and think that the reshuffling of D-rank mons is the most important change to expect, I'd like to go through each individual D-ranked mon and discuss which ones should stay, which ones could rise, and which of them just need to go unranked, cuz damn, there's some serious inflation considering how bad D-mons are supposed to be. (also don't want to double post cuz ew)
Anyways, without further ado, here are my personal opinions on every pokemon in D rank.
This is kind of a tricky one. It's got insane speed and can do some interesting things with a fast memento and decent stab combo, but it has possibly the worst bulk in the entire meta and a lack of power, which either leaves it in desperate need of a focus sash or life orb/choice band, depending on which one it isn't holding. Choice band can do some damage with sand force in sand, but Drilbur is a WAY better sand sweeper regardless and this thing gives up an assload of free turns most of the time, so with that being said, unrank

Again, this is another tricky one, but ultimately I don't think Alolan Ratatta justifies a slot on your team over any relevant normal or dark type, especially considering there are so many viable pokemon with those types in the tier. Hustle makes it hard af to switch into, but also doesn't allow it to pivot via U-turn and keeps it from KOing a lot of things and just getting beaten. I wrote a little more on this topic in an earlier post, so yeah, check that if you'd like some more info. unrank

Okay, this thing is hilariously better than pretty much everything else currently in D. Considering that it's able to force stuff like Houndour and Rufflet out, it really isn't hard to be able to set up shell smash, and while susceptibility to priority sucks, tough claws hits insanely hard and gives this a notable niche over Tirtouga, which is its main competition. It's definitely more on par with anything in C- than with what's in D even after a potential nuke, since it can nuke steel types with a fightnium-z cross chop now. move to c-

It has an amazing attack stat and decent movepool, but absolutely nothing else and as a result, can't even abuse its only assets. Sucker punch is underwhelming and its best set in swords dance is extremely hard to pull off since it has absolutely awful bulk and no speed whatsoever. The nail in the coffin for this thing, among all these other flaws, has got to be the prevalence of things that straight up just beat it, like Vullaby, Mienfoo, virtually every flying type, etc. unrank

These three all just really suck, and by really, I mean REALLY REALLY REALLY suck. Ekans is horribly outclassed offensively and defensively by pretty much any poison type in C+ or higher, Finneon can only defog once most of the time since it has no recovery and an excuse of a special attack stat, and Gible just has no reason to be used over Axew or Dratini, which are both mediocre pokemon anyway unrank all

Decided to group these three together since while they all face competition from other pokes or are usually hard to build around, they all have fine offensive niches that allow them to shine in subtle yet good enough ways. Protean allows Froakie to hit anything hard, and even tho it has to use life orb to ko anything and can't take any hits to save its life, it has virtually no switch ins and has slightly improved in that water shuriken is now special and fletchling isn't relevant. Golett has a decent typing that allows it to soft check a lot of stuff like Mudbray and Buneary, and iron fist gives ice punch and drain punch a lot of power, but what keeps it at D is its susceptibility to the same amount of things that it stops. Grimer's a poison type that can take on psychics without much of a problem, which is pretty impressive alongside its tanking capabilities. keep all ranked

Both of these are normals that just need to go to smog frog already. Glameow's a far worse Aipom/Meowth that's only gotten worse due to Mudbray's prevalence, and Litleo's lack of a good ability, inability to switch into anything due to its stealth rock weakness, and severe competition from Vulpix and Houndour are all enough to keep it out of even D. unrank both

The only niche Growlithe has over Ponyta is intimidate, but besides that there's literally no reason to run it over the flaming horse. Really not sure if that's enough to drop to smog frog rank tho. Maybe? on the fence, leaning on unrank

I've tried both of these two in sun and have been really pleasantly surprised. Sure, Oddish hates Bellsprout and Venusaur's presence in the tier, but is bulkier and hits harder than both, which is enough of a niche in my eyes to stay in D (although lack of growth and weather ball sucks). Helioptile's a beast with solar power, and dry skin allows it to really reliably check waters as well, could potentially rise to C- tbh, but its still not great. keep both ranked, maybe rise Helioptile to C- due to offensive versatility

Both of these psychic types have way too small of niches to be used over Abra or Gothita whatsoever. Mime Jr dies to like, every physical attack even WITH an eviolite, which doesn't go well with its average speed, and Munna has no offensive power and a lack of a defensive typing to abuse its decent bulk. Even baton pass sets suck with this thing since Gastly and Knock off are such common problems. unrank both

These are four really neat win cons that have solid enough niches to stay within d. Klink is just really not prepared for, which in part compensates for its poor power even after a boost considering it isn't super hard to use shift gear twice, and Poliwag is a really good answer to psychic variants of staryu since it can negate any hazard damage by switching into scald and is really fast and powerful after a belly drum boost. Treecko and Totodile have some insane abilities and are probably 2 of the best things in D, so yeah, keep these guys ranked

Grouping these 3 together since this is getting boring and i guess you could consider all of these guys 'setters' of some sort. Pineco's great defense stat and sturdy allow it to guarantee one hazard or a spin, and explosion is great for softening stuff up for revengers to take care of. Piplup's got a neat thing going with defiant and stealth rock, since it discourages other defoggers and is also better than finneon which it shares a rank with, and Voltorb's fast taunt and ability to partner Omanyte extremely well with rain dance and volt switch allow it to maintain a valuable niche as one of the tier's only rain setters. keep all 3 ranked

Another trio of pokemon that are all just horribly outclassed and have no business being ranked any longer. Smoochum is a shitty gothita with a worse defensive typing, no shadow tag and inability to live any physical hit even with eviolite. I can't think of anything Skiddo does that isn't better done by another pokemon in the tier, and Wailmer has a weak ass water spout considering it usually has to take a hit before it wants to use the move (and take a hit isn't in this thing's vocabulary). unrank all 3

This guy's surprisingly bulky, has an amazing move in spore, and effect spore and leech seed that allow it to maintain a valuable niche as a bulky grass type and answer to the many powerful water and ground types of the tier. keep it ranked

Okay, wtf is this thing doing all the way down here? It has the highest special attack stat in the tier and one hell of a trick room set. It has a wide range of z-move nuke options like gigavolt havoc and bloom doom to choose from, and has enough bulk to survive a knock off without a focus sash unlike Abra. It isn't great, but hell, is a whole lot better than D. move this thing to C-

Well, that kinda sucked. But I hope you guys enjoyed reading! I really feel strongly about all of these mons either going unranked or maintaining D, though I won't lose any sleep if stuff like Voltorb doesn't stay or Litleo remains ranked. Thanks for reading!
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributor
#50
Okay, this thing is hilariously better than pretty much everything else currently in D. Considering that it's able to force stuff like Houndour and Rufflet out, it really isn't hard to be able to set up shell smash, and while susceptibility to priority sucks, tough claws hits insanely hard and gives this a notable niche over Tirtouga, which is its main competition. It's definitely more on par with anything in C- than with what's in D even after a potential nuke, since it can nuke steel types with a fightnium-z cross chop now. move to c-

Finneon can only defog once most of the time since it has no recovery and an excuse of a special attack stat, and Gible just has no reason to be used over Axew or Dratini, which are both mediocre pokemon anyway unrank all

Both of these psychic types have way too small of niches to be used over Abra or Gothita whatsoever. Mime Jr dies to like, every physical attack even WITH an eviolite, which doesn't go well with its average speed, and Munna has no offensive power and a lack of a defensive typing to abuse its decent bulk. Even baton pass sets suck with this thing since Gastly and Knock off are such common problems. unrank both

Piplup's got a neat thing going with defiant and stealth rock, since it discourages other defoggers and is also better than finneon which it shares a rank with

Another trio of pokemon that are all just horribly outclassed and have no business being ranked any longer. Smoochum is a shitty gothita with a worse defensive typing, no shadow tag and inability to live any physical hit even with eviolite. Wailmer has a weak ass water spout considering it usually has to take a hit before it wants to use the move (and take a hit isn't in this thing's vocabulary). unrank all 3

This guy's surprisingly bulky, has an amazing move in spore, and effect spore and leech seed that allow it to maintain a valuable niche as a bulky grass type and answer to the many powerful water and ground types of the tier. keep it ranked

Okay, wtf is this thing doing all the way down here? It has the highest special attack stat in the tier and one hell of a trick room set. It has a wide range of z-move nuke options like gigavolt havoc and bloom doom to choose from, and has enough bulk to survive a knock off without a focus sash unlike Abra. It isn't great, but hell, is a whole lot better than D. move this thing to C-
So I cut out all the stuff that I don't really feel any need to respond to, but I'll go through the ones that are still here and explain how I disagree.

First: Binacle. The reason Binacle is in D rank is the same reason Totodile is in D rank - while they're not bad they're outclassed. Totodile is outclassed almost entirely by Corphish, while Binacle is far and away the worst of the Shell Smashers. While it does have a couple unique moves in Cross Chop and Poison Jab, it can't run both if it wants dual STAB, is significantly frailer than Tirtouga (although it does have the advantage of being faster) and really doesn't do so well in practice compared to literally any of the other smashers. You also make some... interesting claims about this being able to force Rufflet and Houndour out.

0 Atk Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 100 HP / 60 Def Eviolite Binacle: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (17 attack or higher is a 100% OHKO)

196 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Binacle: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hell even if they're in at the same time, Sucker Punch finishes the job after a Dark Pulse since Binacle has no priority.

The only real thing Binacle has over Tirtouga is a very slightly stronger Razor Shell than Tirtouga Waterfall due to Tough Claws (doesn't gain any notable OHKOs and gains an additional 5% miss chance) and the ability to OHKO Ferroseed. Which is all well and good, but that doesn't make up for a lack of priority, significantly less bulk making it harder to both set up and stick around, and a general sense of unreliability due to Cross Chop and Stone Edge both having 80 Acc. Meanwhile Fightnium Z allows you to have a one time nuke against things you mostly OHKO at +2 Cross Chop already in exchange for making it even harder to set up and stay alive after setting up. Binacle should stay D rank, because it's not totally useless, but is definitely outclassed on a majority of teams.

Second: Finneon and Piplup (with a side of Gible). Finneon is objectively better than Piplup. While Piplup does have Stealth Rock and Defog (or Stealth Rock and Defiant) Finneon has Defog and U-turn and a water immunity. Both have essentially equivalent bulk, Piplup has exactly 1 more Special Attack, and Finneon hits a much, much better speed tier. Finneon is capable of Defogging before the opponent OHKOs it, while Piplup often is not, simply because it's so much slower. Finneon also serves a secondary role as a U-turner, allowing you to maintain momentum much better than Piplup can.

While Defiant is a good ability, Piplup is a poor user of it. It has a couple decent physical options, but is still slow and too reliant on that boost to be useful. Maybe if Defiant was legal with Defog it might have use, but it isn't so it doesn't. Long and short of it long from Piplup outclassing Finneon, Finneon is closer to outclassing Piplup.

Also Gible shouldn't be compared to Dratini and Axew. Beyond sharing a typing they have completely different roles (Axew and Dratini offensive sweepers while Gible goes for a bulkier route).

Next up: Mime Jr. and Munna. While these two have little place on other teams (although Mime Jr in particular can work) their contributions to FullPass teams should not be overlooked, being key members of the by far most successful BP team that exists. That is why they should stay D rank.

Up now: Smoochum and Wailmer. First, why did you compare Smoochum to Gothita. You compared them, say Gothita outclasses Smoochum, and then proceed to go over exactly why they're not comparable. What were you trying to prove? Yes, they're both psychic types, and yes Gothita is a better mon in general, but they have completely different roles. Smoochum is significantly stronger, actually has a secondary STAB which is actually good, and hits 17 speed. Is Smoochum actually good? Absolutely not. Is Smoochum worthy of D rank? No opinion. It's simply that the logic you decided to use was so nonsensical that I couldn't let it just go by with no response.

Meanwhile, you have a similar thing with Wailmer. You say it's always taking a hit before it Spouts, but completely discount that its most viable set is a scarf set, which with 60 speed is faster than a majority of the meta. I personally think that Remoraid is usually a better choice, but Wailmer does have significantly better bulk than Remoraid, meaning that if it doesn't get the OHKO with Water Spout it can generally live at least one hit. 130/35/35 defenses are actually quite good overall.

Now Shroomish. Shroomish is god awful. I do not understand why this shitty mon is still ranked despite having absolutely no real worth compared to Foongus and now Morelull. Morelull isn't great, but it's a damn sight better than Shroomish. Foongus is great and is also a damn sight better than Shroomish. Shroomish has poor offensive stats, is required to use synthesis far too often in order to stay healthy, and flat out is not bulky enough to justify its use over other good bulky grass types.

Last: Solosis. I want to preface this by saying that Trick Room is not an irredeemably bad strategy. I know people who have lost to Trick Room. I have lost to Trick Room. That being said, Solosis has never been a particularly valuable part of those TR teams, not really having any sort of important role. It's fairly strong, yeah, but it doesn't really have many notable things going for it. It can take a knock off, sure, but so can Focus Sash Abra. It's strong, yes, but so is Abra. Really that's the main thing, Solosis has a number of things going for it on paper, but in practice why aren't you using Abra unless you're using Trick Room? And while I haven't gotten a chance to play against Trick Room this gen I can't imagine it's any better considering that Porygon - one of the pillars of Trick Room - has been banned.

In short, Solosis is not a terrible mon. It's got a lot of power, a not terrible movepool, and decent bulk. However it's far less effective in practice than it is on paper and overall just falls flat on a majority of teams. It shouldn't be unranked, but it really shouldn't move up to C-.

This was longer than I expected it to be.
 
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