Announcement LC Suspect - About Damn Time

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Coconut

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LC Leader

"We should have been there long ago
Shouldn't take this long"
:vullaby:

Simply put, Vullaby has been the defining mon of the past two generations of competitive Little Cup. It's combination of raw power from an offensive physical set and a set-up Nasty Plot set have been some of the most dominant sets in the current iterations of the metagame. Vullaby has notably high defenses, which means even without the flagship item of the tier—Eviolite, Vullaby is difficult to score an OHKO on. Couple that with it's primarily used ability, Weak Armor, and the majority of physical attacks that do not kill Vullaby allow it to now outspeed the entire metagame. Vullaby also has some of the most reliable utility, as it is one of the main forms of hazard clear in the form of Defog, and has fantastic ability to pivot with U-Turn. To top it all off, Vullaby has one strongest options in terms of filler moves, as Heat Wave allows it to break some potential checks and has been utilized even by some of the physical oriented sets.

Recently, Vullaby players have opted to primarily run fast physical sets, with Nasty Plot sweepers being used to potentially catch a team or player off-guard. The use of moves such as Endure allow Vullaby to survive hits that would potentially KO Vullaby, activate both Weak Armor and it's main item, Berry Juice, and return to near full health with additional speed. This has been used especially well on the Nasty Plot sets, which has the potential to break through some sure-fire checks via Air Slash and even Dark Pulse flinches. In addition, the current generation has left players with less Special Attackers—some of the most common ways to break Vullaby as it does not get boosts of speed off of them. While the majority of Vullaby checks for one set also happen to cover the other set, many players are concerned that their own Vullaby might be one of the only reliable ways to safely kill Vullaby, which could have potentially led to a massive usage rate.

Vullaby has been the topic of discussion for quite a long time, with some players suggesting that a single Pokemon cannot be as meta warping as Vullaby currently is while still being a healthy influence on the metagame, while others argue that it is not broken, but simply that Vullaby is the sole proprietor of several different niches on a specific team structures. The LC community will decide via suspect test the direction we are going to take moving forward.

I understand that this is a controversial suspect, and that there has been a lot of debate as to whether or not we should be suspecting this or another Pokemon first. I would like to make it clear that we are suspecting Vullaby right now. Comparing Vullaby to another suspect does not provide, or add anything to a given conversation. You have my word that the council will take great consideration of all of the other options; including things that people asked to come first, at the conclusion of this suspect. For now, please let's come together as a community and align our focus onto this topic, so we can handle this suspect with the respect it deserves before moving onto anything else.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230


For this suspect test, we will be using the regular LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with VULC to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Vullaby will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, February 7th, at 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.
 
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I just made an account to say that I have been waiting for this to happen for a long time. Just gonna give a quick brief of how I feel about Vullaby in LC. I do feel like it should be banned. The amount of sets that it can run, such as Weak Armor Nasty Plot, a devastating set, or a defensive Eviolite set with Defog and Foul Play to counter faster checks to it. I do think some issues will rise with Vullaby being banned however, mainly with one specific Pokémon, being Mienfoo. Most of the time, Vullaby is a good stop-gap to Mienfoo thanks to its Flying Type, unless Mienfoo runs Stone Edge. If Vullaby does get Banned, I do think Mienfoo will rise up to the top and might warrant a ban itself, although its def not as bad as Vullaby. Those are my 2 cents about this, but I do hope Vullaby go Vullabye-bye
 
This is honestly great, Vullaby has been dominating LC for so long. The issue I have with this is that is it too strong or too versatile? Probably the former, but anytime I make an LC team, I slap on a Vullaby 99% of the time just cos it's so flexible, kinda like Lando-T to be honest. I'd like to hear more experienced players' thoughts on this.

Another question, why was the suspect test done now, rather than earlier? It seems kinda late...

That title is absolutely genius as well
 
Vullaby has been dominating LC for the longest time (half the teams I see have a vullaby slapped on it) This suspect test was needed, and as stated before the title is perfect. In my experiences I've had to slap on lots of counters towards it considering how versatile and somewhat powerful it is. I'm excited to participate, and hopefully can share more once I get my GXE up.
 
I don't think vullaby is broken
powerful, yes
overwhelming, at times
but broken... if your team doesnt carry its checks.

Physical sets are usually utility + bird move. Special sets get overwhelmed by the other 2 best mons in the tier as well as multiple other priority move carrying mons being thrown at its 'Weak Armor' body.

Its special set being the cause of vulls suspect, i suppose, is thwarted by special attackers(especially those faster than its 16 spe), physical priority moves and a lack of being able to dmg whats in front of it with its coverage(or flinch with said moves). They also dont care about hazards like utility sets do.

Unboosted checks include: staryu, abra, ponyta g, onix, spritzee, pawniard

Boosted checks include:
physical priority mons(corphish, pawniard, timburr)
Fake out mons(meowth, mienfoo, grook)
Special attackers that take at least 1 +2 attack from full(koffing, spritzee,phat staryu w hp invest)

If vullaby does get banned however i think the meta will adapt and become stagnant again because vullaby itself was usually just a glue mon to thwart actual threats in the meta game including vullabys own special sets at times. Vulls checks, either rock or steel, are checked thenselves by foo (another more threatening mon imo), grounds by grookey(a mon i hear consistent complaint about), anything phat gets trapped(one of the bigger problems i have in LC) or has a phat mon to switch into like mare/foong/ferro/koff etc. Special sets w roost usually costs defense if weak armor and/or coverage OR speed if overcoat and can be noticibly less bulky when knocked.

I can admit vullaby needs accute awareness of how it functions and interacts w other mons to both properly dispatch of it and use it but I feel as though in a vacuum vullaby has reasonable counter measure especially when decoupled with more threatening even limiting parts of the meta... Cough mienfoo, grookey, diglett Cough

We also have no electric types at the top of the tier... Couldnt be because no one wants to click electric move with a scarf and let the diglett come in... Couldn't possibly
 
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Kipkluif

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I am not entirely sure whether Vullaby deserves to be banned or not, but I'm leaning towards ban for now. I feel like the physical pivot sets are really strong, but manageable; as long as you read your opponent well and make sure to only hit Vullaby with hits you can afford to, theres enough ways around it. I recognize that it can feel like a pain to navigate around a Vullaby with Weak Armor in mind, but there are plenty of things that soft-check this Vullaby (15 defense Timburr, Onix, Ferroseed, Staryu) and Berry Juice variants lose a significant amount of things they can switch into when Stealth Rock is on the field, which does hinder how mindlessly Vullaby can hit the field.
My main problem is with the Nasty Plot set; These sets tend to run Eviolite over Berry Juice, making them take less damage from priority moves that boost it's speed through Weak Armor. Whereas some of these can be worn down by multiple Priority moves, some variants run Endure to work around things like Mienfoo's Fake Out, Trapinch's First Impression, or they can run Roost to beat special attackers like Staryu after the Vullaby has boosted it's speed. The different variants of the special set are basically indistinguishable until you see the move come out, which means you can never be sure if your check of special Vullaby will actually check it until it's too late. This is why I'm leaning towards ban right now, but I'm willing to hear what others have to say about this special set and why it is perhaps not broken.
 

Corporal Levi

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Hi all - I've been joining in on a lot of Vullaby-related discussions lately and I've noticed a couple of concerns about how the metagame might get worse after a Vullaby ban. Now, we're technically not supposed to take that into account according to Smogon tiering policy, but I realize that it might be something lingering in the back of the head all the same. Now, I was just discussing with Laroxyl and we came to the same conclusion, so I would like to offer my thoughts on why I'd be fine with or might even prefer an eventual post-Vullaby metagame:

1. Grookey is, of course, the elephant in the room. It's already suspect-worthy now, and it would lose its most common check. However, a Grookey suspect has been talked about and already has a decent amount of support: it will very likely be happening in the near future anyways. Vullaby being banned would probably just push that suspect towards a ban. Is that so bad? And of course, if it's clear that Grookey is overbearing right away, we could look into a quickban or even an extra prompt suspect.

2. Nobody can predict the future, of course, but I don't think we'll be at immediate risk of any mons other than Grookey being broken (and I'm confident that even in the long term, none of them will even come close to becoming as broken as Vullaby is now).
- Ground-types lose a check but also their single best offensive and defensive partner, plus trappers never cared much about being checked anyways and Onix would actually get worse with a Vullaby ban.
- Grookey being banned makes Shell Smashers and Dragon Dancers better, but we already handled similar mons in SM without Grookey just fine, and now they're also missing Vullaby to use as a setup opportunity or z-moves / Hidden Power to lure or muscle through their checks.
- Most other mons should be easier to handle defensively since your checks aren't pressured by Vullaby anymore. For example, you can now safely save your Pawniard for Foongus or Porygon instead.

3. You get to use all 6 slots! Right now, most non-cheese need at least one of Onix or Pawniard to deal with Vullaby, sometimes even both (not to mention another slot dedicated to Vullaby itself). Without Vullaby in the tier, standard teams are a lot more free to use that slot to explore their hazard users or even just handle something else.

4. I'm not actually sure of this point, but in my personal experience, the SS metagame has been similar to the SM metagame. The loss of Hidden Power and Pursuit has been noticeable for sure, and we see a lot of a new threats too. But notice how all of these are almost purely offensive threats that you have to make room on your team for. It feels like the core of a "standard" team is still pretty much the same. Compare B+ and over for the SS viability rankings to that of the SM viability rankings: once you take out the dedicated offensive mons (Grookey, Scraggy, Gastly, etc.), they look quite similar. SS and SM basically just feel like different flavours of offense/cheese for a similarly structured metagame.

In contrast, the less immediately powerful Fletchling is the dominant bird instead of Weak Armor Vullaby in XY, and it shows in the XY viability rankings, which has all sorts of neat glue and pivoting options like Chinchou and Cottonee ranked near the top. Banning Vullaby would give SS LC a unique identity as the first metagame since BW that doesn't largely revolve around an offensive Flying-type.


Even if you're not convinced that the metagame after a Vullaby ban would be better right away, hopefully this is enough to show that it would be better in the long term. That way, you can focus on deciding whether you think that the reasons for Vullaby being broken are sensible. As for those, dcae, albinson, and wail wailord, among others, have made some fantastic posts addressing this in the metagame discussion thread - which includes anti-ban responses, read those too of course - and I've posted my own thoughts there too. (Note that some of the posts were framed as pro-suspect since a couple users made that the point of contention instead, which I think was a horrible tactic for reasons that dcae also outlined).

Best of luck laddering!
 
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