LC Suspect - Beez in the Trap - Result: Both Remain LC

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macle

macle

sup geodudes
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Suspect of Gothita and Diglett
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Gothita and Diglett have been a concern for many players. Since both of them can trap counters for certain pokemon, thus allowing them to sweep, people have brought up that they maybe broken. We are gonna hold a suspect test to see.

We're changing the reqs system this time, to a more traditional system. Anyone who gets reqs can vote on whether to ban or not. because you have more decision this time, vote is 1 tc point
Reqs are gonna be 2800 coil with a b value of 9.0.

this meant that N amount of battles was needed to get reqs with these gxes:
GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222.

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)


post screen shots in here to proof you got reqs. I'll be checking your alts to make sure.

Deadline is September 8th @ 6pm EST

Council only has to get 2400
 
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Oh, it was a long time I wait for this suspect, but I always thinks it was a dream. The trappers just limit the teambuilding, bcs we need to have a mon who can defeat him without lost him. These mon can just destroy some teams, and we have to restrict our game planes to kill them before. I want to see how the LC evolve without these mons.
 
Still think they aren't broken. Best you could do is argue that they're broken under the old "support characteristic" that we still use sometimes.

Argue that they're uncompetitive with me nerd.
 
I see you stole my coil values macle oO

I really don't think that either one of these Pokemon is broken (I would even go so far as to say Gothita is outright mediocre, given the limits of its trapping ability, and the necessity of carrying Choice Scarf as well as prior damage to trap anything significant). I'll focus on Diglett, since its really the only one worth discussing, a trapping ability on a Pokemon with such a high base speed seems like it would be a major problem, but there are some things that really even this out. Firstly, its that Arena Trap is a pretty limited in what it actually traps, this is especially true when you consider that Diglett is extremely weak, and too frail to come in on anything barring immunities (risky), double switches (risky), after something dies (shitty), or Volt-Turn (less risky). On top of this the only very common Pokemon that Diglett is able to trap 100% of the time 1v1 is Chinchou, a Pokemon that is slapped onto teams far too often, due to lazy team building and frankly I'm okay with that dying (stop switching in chinchou on my chinchou, thanks). You can say that the reason that top Pokemon are top Pokemon, is that they are harder to trap, but this isn't true, I played LC early in XY, when diglett was pretty much never used, and all of the same Pokemon were good, and all of the lesser used ones were still uncommon. I don't think Diglett has a negative impact on the meta game, and I see trapping as just one more aspect of Pokemon that you have to get take into account when preparing for a given meta game. I think that this suspect already proves that to be true, as there is no Trapinch or Wynaut vote happening alongside these two. Gothita is still mediocre tho.

#freekrowtitsmissy
 
To anyone that are giving macle and Rowan shit for doing this, please let it be known that as the founder of the suspect system you guys loved so much, I absolutely support the decision to abolish it at this point in Little Cup, and not for my own desires for a suspect test, but instead because of our needs when I introduced the system, and our needs now.

When I introduced the system, I wanted to give the decision on what to suspect to the players as there were a lot of probably broken Pokemon, and we had a lot of time since we did not get tier shifts / would not anticipate changes until new games. In the almost two years we have had XY, our tier has experienced slight changes (Pancham, Skrelp, etc) whereas other tiers have shifted dramatically due to ORAS...which means it really did not matter how long it took us to fix up our tier. With the community in the driver's seat, only the Pokemon the community wanted to focus on would get focused on, and no one was really saying "no suspect" or "the tier was fine" unless you were apt-get. We went through several suspects that way, taking out Tangela and Yanma, Swirlix and Gligar, Murkrow and Meditite, and Misdreavus, in four very lengthy suspect tests, with the "no suspect" votes increasing each time. One might not think this is a problem; after all, as more and more Pokemon get banned, more and more people will likely think the tier is fine, and that it no longer needs bans. As such, they vote "no suspect."

And there lies the problem. At that point, people are invalidating the need for suspect testing and potential discussion by using their "no suspect" vote as a "no ban" vote. The threshold for having a suspect should (and is) less than that of banning a Pokemon as at its core a suspect test is just an in-depth examination on a particular Pokemon. Most of the arguments I saw against a Diglett / Gothita suspect essentially boiled down to "they aren't ban-worthy" and that is exactly why we had to drop my suspect system at this point in Little Cup. You might argue against the need for a suspect if that many people think it isn't broken, but that invalidates discussion and the potential for a focused debate about these Pokemon swaying voters with the quality of the presented arguments (in either direction). The discussion in this period of time is what matters. We have had discussion in the general metagame thread, but this is official now, and more people will be contributing as there is something at stake now--the current status of the metagame. If you want Diglett / Gothita banned and others don't, convince them. If you do not want Diglett / Gothita banned and others do, convince them. This is the purpose of the suspect test--to discuss POTENTIALLY ban-worthy Pokemon. All adhering to my process at this stage is remove our ability to suspect anything, as the "no suspect" votes really mean "no ban."

Now talk about Diglett and Gothita, and shut the fuck up otherwise.
 
The difference between Gothita and Diglett -- and the reason I don't feel Gothita is broken at all in comparison -- is that Diglett has the Speed, versatility, and coverage to net more than one kill a game, whereas Gothita does not.

Gothita isn't very strong, but it does have acceptable coverage options in the form of Energy Ball (kills Tirt and Omanyte before they set up in a late game situation / if Fletch U-turns into Goth), Hidden Power Fire (smashes Ferroseed for your own Omanyte), Shadow Ball (Pumpkaboo and Honedge I guess but it kills you anyway and escapes Tag), Thunderbolt, and of course, STAB Psychic. Gothita also has just enough Speed to carry a Modest nature and still outrun Diglett and below with a Choice Scarf. Unfortunately, Gothita is a very flawed Pokemon. It's extremely vulnerable to Pursuit users like Stunky and Pawniard, and because of its terrible bulk and defensive typing, is extremely reliant on Volt Switch, U-turn, or sacrifices to come in safely. The fact that Gothita struggles to actually OHKO targets like Ferroseed and Timburr (meaning it will be taking Knock Offs) make its life even more difficult. Even if Gothita does successfully trap and remove something, it is extremely unlikely to do so again due to its suspectability to Knock Off, Pursuit, and general lack of power. It is also forced to run Choice Scarf if it wants to outrun Mienfoo and Trubbish, and without Choice Scarf it just gets crushed by offensive teams. As a result, it's not very versatile.

I don't feel that Gothita's ability to often choose what it wants to remove is ban-worthy, as I don't see anything in this metagame that is so dominant that you cannot fit multiple checks to it.

I'm not convinced Diglett is completely broken either, but it has more versatility because of its MUCH better Speed stat, allowing it to run Life Orb (or Focus Sash I guess, yuck) and change up its moves. It even has access to Sucker Punch in case it needs to finish off a weakened Omanyte or Acro Drifloon or something. Although Psychic STAB isn't bad in LC, STAB Earthquake is just so much...better in terms of neutral coverage and picking off things at moderately low health, especially with Rock Slide as its primary coverage option for Flying-types. I'm leaning no ban for Diglett for the reasons atomicllamas mentioned, but I understand why some people think it's broken, whereas Gothita isn't even suspect-worthy in my eyes.
 
Although I would have much preferred a baton pass suspect, I've been asking for a diglett ban for a while, so I guess I'll post the pro-ban argument.

Diglett's role in this meta, as I see it, is to revenge kill weakened and knock offed pokemon, and deter certain pokemon from functioning to their full potential because they risk double switches/u-turns/getting revenge killed (poison types not named koffing, ponyta, chinchou, non scarf magnemite, etc). Normally, in the case of things like gothita (which performs a similar role, but is much more limited in what it can kill and is generally less ridiculous), Wynaut and Trapinch this is not as big of an issue, but diglett posses unique characteristics that make what it does broken. Diglett is significantly less limited in what it is capable of trapping, as it, with life orb, naturally posses more power. This extra power coupled with blazing speed allows it to 2HKO most of the meta easily. This normally would not be an issue with regular revenge killers, but unlike those Diglett takes away the ability to counter, as once something that's not named spritzee or is a flying type is below 50%, it's fair game. This aspect of diglett as opposed to other trappers is what makes it potentially broken. This extra power coupled with not being locked into moves make it not setup fodder, which is arguably what makes gothita sub-par.

Onto the second potentially broken aspect of diglett: deterring certain pokemon from being used or preventing them from being used to their full potential when on the opposing team vs a diglett. Diglett hinders the following pokemon from performing the role they would normally perform: Abra, Magnemite, Ponyta, Chinchou, Vulpix, Houndour, Larvesta, Skrelp, Croagunk, Tirtouga, Stunky, Onix, Trubbish, and Tentacool. All these pokemon, prior to being weakened at all, are severely hindered by Diglett's mere presence on the field. Any of the above pokemon that are relied on to counter something are unable to do that, as are pokemon that are intended to sweep/revenge kill/lay hazards as they must fear double switches and u-turns. It is just as risky as the player facing the diglett to go to their counter as it is for the player using the diglett to double/u-turn. For example, if a player is using Larvesta as their main fighting check, it is incredibly risky for them to switch larvesta in, because of diglett. While this is not unique to diglett, It effects more things than gothita/other trappers. Additionally, because of the extra power life orb provides, this also extends to weakened pokemon.

I, personally, will be voting no ban on gothita and abstain on diglett as I enjoy using broken mons n.n

(Note: I may have articulated some point poorly so feel free to refute something I may have misworded lol)
 
atomicllamas said:
I see you stole my coil values macle oO

I really don't think that either one of these Pokemon is broken (I would even go so far as to say Gothita is outright mediocre, given the limits of its trapping ability, and the necessity of carrying Choice Scarf as well as prior damage to trap anything significant). I'll focus on Diglett, since its really the only one worth discussing, a trapping ability on a Pokemon with such a high base speed seems like it would be a major problem, but there are some things that really even this out. Firstly, its that Arena Trap is a pretty limited in what it actually traps, this is especially true when you consider that Diglett is extremely weak, and too frail to come in on anything barring immunities (risky), double switches (risky), after something dies (shitty), or Volt-Turn (less risky). On top of this the only very common Pokemon that Diglett is able to trap 100% of the time 1v1 is Chinchou, a Pokemon that is slapped onto teams far too often, due to lazy team building and frankly I'm okay with that dying (stop switching in chinchou on my chinchou, thanks). You can say that the reason that top Pokemon are top Pokemon, is that they are harder to trap, but this isn't true, I played LC early in XY, when diglett was pretty much never used, and all of the same Pokemon were good, and all of the lesser used ones were still uncommon. I don't think Diglett has a negative impact on the meta game, and I see trapping as just one more aspect of Pokemon that you have to get take into account when preparing for a given meta game. I think that this suspect already proves that to be true, as there is no Trapinch or Wynaut vote happening alongside these two. Gothita is still mediocre tho.

#freekrowtitsmissy
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point of Diglett, and most definitely underestimating what it traps and what a "reliable" trap is. Operating under a "able to trap 100% of the time' vacuum, it still has Chinchou like you said, but also Skrelp, Abra (beat up for Focus Sash if you want it), Croagunk, Honedge, Trubbish, Buneary, Bunnelby (non-Scarf), Ponyta, Houndour (if Substitute), and honestly a bunch of other stuff I don't want to actually give you a list. Then you get to include every single Rock-type if you manage to break Sturdy. And then you get to include legit EVERYTHING ELSE if you manage to play the game at all...

You don't play Diglett in a vacuum, you play it on a team. Pokemon naturally take damage, and you play Diglett in a way that capitalizes on that. There are just so many ways to do so. Knock Off a Mienfoo, and Diglett fucks it. U-turn out of an Omanyte and Diglett fucks it. Knock Off a Spritzee, have SR down, and U-turn a few times and Diglett fucks it. You have to play absolutely perfectly to avoid losing to Diglett and it puts way too much pressure on the person that does not have it as they cannot let any grounded Pokemon that isn't Pumpkaboo take damage, or it will die to Diglett. I think that's absolutely negative and unhealthy.

This isn't the best worded post / I didn't try too hard on it nor do I want to, but I think if you are analyzing Diglett as not broken because it can't really smack things from 100% you are not really using it right.
 
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