Announcement LC Suspect - Runaway

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jake

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Approved by the council.




For Little Cup's fourth suspect of this generation, we're going to be looking at Regenerator. The combination of defensive capabilities and healing through Regenerator have made several abusers and the teams centered around them extremely centralizing. Regenerator based teams can create polarized matchups, limit teambuilding options, and some would consider them to just be at too high of a power level.

The voting requirements for this suspect test are a minimum of 88 GXE and a minimum game count + GXE of 130. The suspect period will last for two weeks, ending on Tuesday, April 12th @ 11:59PM EDT. The relatively high GXE is to compensate for the already inflated GXE on the existing ladder. Regenerator will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect test.

GXE ≥ 88
GXE + battle count ≥ 130

Due to complaints regarding the usage of fresh ladders for suspects, we will be using the regular ladder. To ensure that users do not submit an already highly ranked account, your reqs account must have a "REGEN" tag in front of your name. Here is an example of what we are looking for with the tags.


For council members, we will be requiring a minimum of 88 GXE without any game count minimum along with the expectation that they will contribute to this thread.
Coconut
Corporal Levi
jake
Shrug
Sken
Star
ZoroDark

While we would normally give some more time for the metagame to develop after the previous suspect, we have decided to make an exception here due to how little Torchic's ban affected the metagame. This is to ensure a balanced metagame in preparation for the upcoming LCWC tournament.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

 
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i’ve been waiting for this for so long. as one of the most prominent teambuilders of the last two generations, the more i’ve played, the more i’ve found regenerator to be absurdly centralizing. every single pokemon in the lc meta is affected by regenerator, and four of the top 15 mons have regenerator—80% of regen mons are top tier, and all of them because of regenerator.

when i build, i try to make sure i have answers to everything in the metagame. often i forget things or just build teams that don’t have synergy, but i’m successful at checking the meta game fairly consistently—except for regenerator. because honestly, what counterplay is there to regenerator?

the most common way i find myself dealing with regenerator mons is by trapping them with diglett—but that’s extremely difficult to do. diggy doesn’t want to come in on a foongus giga drain, or a mareanie or slowpoke scald, and mienfoo can just uturn our on your switch in. so there are basically 3 ways to get diglett in: slow uturn, double switching, and sacking something. slow uturn is the safest option, but...foo is the best slow uturn user by a very wide margin. so basically you’re using a regen mon to check regen mons, which is pretty much the “it’s not broken cause you can use it too” excuse. double switches are risky, especially because dig is so frail, while regenerator mons are incredibly forgiving to play with. the most reliable way to get diggy in safely is to sack something, except these mons don’t really ko anything, so that’s a problem in and of itself.

what’s also really problematic is that all of these regen mons are bulky and by nature of their ability really hard to chip. dig is weak, and can’t even ko most of these mons from full with z eq, so you essentially have to spam knock off, and even then you’ll need chip to get koes with z eq. and hey, you know what the best knock off user in the meta game is? that’s right, it’s foo. that mienfoo+diglett is often my best option to reliably eliminate foongus is really frustrating. diglett can’t even reliably trap mareanie now because of iron defense, which i’m sorry to say is largely my fault for creating.

so basically, regen forces you to run a borderline-broken mon (diglett) to deal with it, and forces the meta into a positive feedback loop of using regen to check regen, using broken to beat broken. each of the regen mons has its own niche, but essentially they play similarly, just getting chip and status and switching out and recovering all their hp. and the best way to deal with chip is to run your own regen mons.

how often have you seen foongus switching in on foongus lately? it’s stupidly common, because it’s honestly the best foongus counterplay a lot of teams have right now. a small part of that is bad team construction, but honestly, there’s no real reliable foongus checks—evio overcoat vullaby takes 1/4 from sr plus a substantial amount from sludge bomb plus the chance of a poison, and foongus is able to come in so often on so many mons that a poison on vulla is practically guaranteed at some point.

there’s literally nothing in the metagame to disincentivize running regenerator, not just on one mon but on multiple mons on a single team. regen is an enormously centralizing force in this meta game and i think it’s unhealthy. that’s why i will be voting ban for regenerator.
 

Merritt

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Oh boy.

So I’ll get my thoughts out right away - regenerator does not fit the criteria necessary in my mind to ban something that is not a Pokémon. For it to be necessary to ban it should be that it has to either be inherently uncompetitive (for example Moody) or overwhelmingly powerful to the point that meaningful counterplay doesn’t exist (for example Sonicboom).

Regenerator is not inherently uncompetitive. If you were to argue that it is, the only way to reasonably do so is through the claim that it eliminates the skillful play that is chipping away at defensive Pokémon over time in order to later break through them. While on the surface this seems reasonable, it falls apart when you realize that this claim can easily be expanded to recovery moves in general - Spritzee prevents skillful offensive play by invalidating chip damage through its recovery with Wish. A possible rebuttal of this is that’s unlike recovery moves, Regenerator does not require the “loss” of a turn in order to gain the healing. While minimally correct, this is counterbalanced by the lesser recovery gained, particularly in a tier like LC where losing a full third or more of your HP on a neutral hit is incredibly far from unusual. In addition, the same statement can be made about Berry Juice or the unviable Leftovers, as they provide passive recovery that leaves the user completely free to act. More counterplay exists to these, one can argue, since Knock Off is common and permentantly eliminates the ability to gain recovery through these items, but surely saying that a single move is the only way these things are balanced can’t be a sign of a healthy metagame either. Overall, a claim that Regenerator is inherently uncompetitive is shaky to start with, but even when looking deeper can only be made coherently by using logic that leaves gaps big enough to drive a battleship through.

So the other option for arguing a Regenerator ban is that the ability is broken. While it’s certainly not a stretch to say that Regenerator is one of the best abilities in the game and certainly one of the best defensive abilities, actually calling it broken is difficult, not least because a broken defensive ability is something we have no context for, no way to compare. A broken defensive Pokémon invalidates a large portion of the tier and force said very specific answers to deal with it, but Regenerator certainly can’t cause that as it’s just some recovery for defensive (and a few offensive) Pokémon. The closest thing to a broken defensive ability is Moody, but that’s almost universally agreed to be in the uncompetitive mold, not the broken one. Unfortunately I can’t provide a good counterargument to claiming Regenerator is broken, since I’m unable to think of an argument for saying that the ability is that isn’t just a salt induced complaint of somebody who was unable to actually beat the Slowpoke.

The last and by far most subjective possible argument is that Regenerator is unhealthy and overcentalizing. At a glance, this seems accurate (the centralizing part, trying to see whether it’s healthy or not would take more) since the top used Pokemon include Mienfoo and Foongus, with others like Slowpoke and Mareanie at a respectable usage themselves. However, it’s more than just Regenerator or even largely Regenerator that keeps Mienfoo and Foongus used so much. I touched a lot on why Foongus has so much use in the metagame discussion thread and I’d prefer not to type it out again on my phone (tl;dr version, Grass/Poison is a very useful typing to deal with major metagame threats and Foongus comes with a threaten everything button in Spore), but I can elaborate on Mienfoo a little. Mienfoo is, first and most importantly, a fighting type. While this seems somewhere between obvious and unimportant to some of you, this is actually a major factor in Mienfoo’s commonness in the meta - fighting types are good. A fighting type that offers excellent coverage, a good stat spread with a strong speed tier, high attack, and acceptable defenses, team support utility, and pivoting in U-turn is astounding would already fit on a wide variety of teams. Regenerator isn’t the sole or even largest factor behind Mienfoo’s mainstream success, although I’d be a fool if I tried to deny it doesn’t play a role. More defensive Pokémon like Slowpoke and Mareanie have Regen as a larger portion of their success, but that’s actually because the nature of LC, no matter how many generations back you go, has rewarded offensive pressure and punished reactionary play that bleeds free turns for recovery.

Unfortunately arguing against a general “regen is unhealthy” argument isn’t feasible since it's a fairly subjective category to begin with. What I can say is that I personally believe Regenerator isn’t unhealthy for the metagame and is actually healthy if you consider making more playstyles viable as healthy. This meandered a bit but hopefully as a whole came across as coherent enough - it’s late and phones are terrible for long suspect posts.

On a more personal level, I’m fairly disappointed in this suspect for a variety of reasons, and I can only hope that this isn’t looked back on as being as insane as gen 6’s Baton Pass suspect was - at least that had the excuse of being chosen by the general public and not by the council.
 
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dcae

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aite so ngl, this suspect kinda caught me offguard bc despite me and some ppl talking about regens broken aspects semi-jokingly for the past few months, i wasnt sure if it was genuinely suspect worthy. however, now that its being looked at, i do have a few commentaries to make

first of all, im currently leaning towards ban but not fully convinced. as inf outlined in his post, there is a significant amount of teambuilding limitation. if we look at the dcaeapprovedtop10 list of lc mons (no particular order)

foo dig vull foon timb mare onix pawn snivy mag

we can see that 3 of the top 10 mons have regen. more specifically, the clearcut top 4 mons (foo, dig, vull, foon) have 2 regen mons among them. in total, of the 5 regen mons, 3 of them are dominating the lc metagame, and slowpoke is very viable as well. if we look at the top 10 lc mons, other than dig, all of them would run regen sets if they had the ability available to them. its such a dominant ability bc in lc, theres so much chip dmg that cannot easily be handled like in the upper tiers.

as we can see, the upper echelon of the lc meta is dominated by regen mons. i cannot recall the last team i built that did not contain a regen mon and was a successful team. foongus is the biggest defensive threat in the little cup meta, and it is its own best switch in. as inf outlined, many ppl who laddered on the torchic suspect ladder probably saw the dominant presence of foongus and the constant pp wars btwn foongus that determined the outcomes of games. there is an undeniable strain on teambuilding when we account for all the regen mons. for example, my boi timb is almost always outclassed by foo even tho timb is a 10/10 mon and i love it a lot. user: shrug tried to innovate with a fucking budew!!!! in order to handle foongus. this teambuilding limitation is a legitimate concern and probably my most realistic ideal for why regen should be banned

however, idk if this is the right move. this is probably the first ban of its kind (trapping ban by ou was more oriented towards the mechanic) and the lc meta is pretty stable and arguably not an unhealthy metagame, so removing regen purely based on teambuilding stress could be a hasty and incorrect decision. as a result, im leaning ban but im not 100% sure yet

edit: just saw merritt's post as i was writing this up. i think there's some good points but i think you're really understating the sheer centralization of regen. foo has been arguably the best mon in lc across 3 entire generations while largely being responsible for the nonexistence of normal types in the metagame. foongus has consistently been one of the most influential defensive mons in lc, if not the most influential, across 3 gens while largely being a reason why sleep talk is ever considered a viable move in the lc sphere and creating sets such as z icium staryu etc. mareanie is a recent addition but already tremendously influential and a huge reason why i think dig should be on every mon. none of these mons would approach this level of dominance without regen and i think it is important to keep an open mind when approaching this suspect and acknowledging the very real level of centralization currently present in the lc metagame.
 
The last and by far most subjective possible argument is that Regenerator is unhealthy and overcentalizing. At a glance, this seems accurate (the centralizing part, trying to see whether it’s healthy or not would take more) since the top used Pokemon include Mienfoo and Foongus, with others like Slowpoke and Mareanie at a respectable usage themselves. However, it’s more than just Regenerator or even largely Regenerator that keeps Mienfoo and Foongus used so much. I touched a lot on why Foongus has so much use in the metagame discussion thread and I’d prefer not to type it out again on my phone (tl;dr version, Grass/Poison is a very useful typing to deal with major metagame threats and Foongus comes with a threaten everything button in Spore), but I can elaborate on Mienfoo a little. Mienfoo is, first and most importantly, a fighting type. While this seems somewhere between obvious and unimportant to some of you, this is actually a major factor in Mienfoo’s commonness in the meta - fighting types are good. A fighting type that offers excellent coverage, a good stat spread with a strong speed tier, high attack, and acceptable defenses, team support utility, and pivoting in U-turn is astounding would already fit on a wide variety of teams. Regenerator isn’t the sole or even largest factor behind Mienfoo’s mainstream success, although I’d be a fool if I tried to deny it doesn’t play a role. More defensive Pokémon like Slowpoke and Mareanie have Regen as a larger portion of their success, but that’s actually because the nature of LC, no matter how many generations back you go, has rewarded offensive pressure and punished reactionary play that bleeds free turns for recovery.
The idea that Regenerator is not critical to the success of Mienfoo in Foongus is pretty hard to swallow. We've seen plenty of examples of what a good ability can do. I would definitely make the case that Regenerator is the largest factor behind these two mons success. The chipability of Mienfoo and Foongus is actually quite high. You want to be able to pivot them in on a wide variety of threats, and recovery on switch is exactly what allows them to do that again and again. That reliability is what has made Foo, Foon and even Marie to an extent such ubiquitous threats in the metagame
 
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Corporal Levi

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This suspect may be a bit out of the left field, but honestly I'm completely on board with this. Regenerator needs to go.


I. Regenerator as a broken trait

To put it bluntly, Regenerator is absurdly strong. In an otherwise highly offensive metagame, the degree to which it skews risk vs reward by boosting an already useful action in switching with a significant healing effect often draws out many games for far longer than necessary. It's not hard to see just how effective Regenerator is - despite its relatively limited distribution, three of its users in Mienfoo, Foongus, and Mareanie rank among the very best Pokemon in the metagame, with Slowpoke being a high tier Pokemon as well; only Solosis remains relatively unviable, but not even Huge Power could salvage such a poor stat distribution and movepool. I'll talk more about how the four noteworthy Regenerator abusers are individually so strong later in the post.

I'd like to go into more detail on the risk vs reward aspect of Regenerator here by comparing it to one of the more popular pro-Diglett ban arguments. The claim is that by completely preventing switching once it's in play, Diglett affects decisions based on risk vs reward to an extreme degree simply by being present on the opposing team. Plays that would otherwise be perfectly acceptable in a non-Diglett game, such as switching into a VoltTurner or even KOing a weakened Pokemon, can become poor choices if your Pokemon is weak to Diglett and you need it for something else on their team, as Diglett's ability allows it to almost guarantee that your Pokemon is removed afterwards. Repeatedly clicking VoltTurn to deal a slight amount of chip, and maintaining weakened Pokemon to sack, are two actions that become hugely more powerful if you have a Diglett to get into play through these means.

With that being said, I'm personally anti-ban for Diglett, and my counterargument for that pro-ban argument in particular is that this aspect of risk vs reward is something that both players can take into consideration at any point in the game. You can take into account that Diglett will be able to take out your Pokemon if you come in on a well-timed U-turn or KO a sack, and decide whether or not what you have to gain from coming in anyways is worth the tradeoff of possibly losing your Pokemon to Diglett. Factoring into this decision is that while being able to take advantage of VoltTurn and sacks to such an extent is certainly enough to rank Diglett as one of the top Pokemon in LC, the amount of momentum it loses after completing a revenge-kill is still a very notable tradeoff; the fact that Diglett relies almost solely upon Earthquake to deal damage, and that its Earthquake isn't even that strong when not boosted by Groundium Z, means that a number of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame, including Vullaby and Snivy, are able to get into play for free, which can often be just as rewarding as what the Diglett user gains from trapping its target. In short, while Diglett does skew risk vs reward, I feel that it doesn't do so in a manner that actually favours the Diglett user to a broken extent - it merely adds another layer to what both players have to account for.

Now, what does this have to do with Regenerator? The issue here is that Regenerator skews risk vs reward in the exact opposite direction of Diglett; instead of preventing switching, it makes switching too strong. Because leftovers isn't viable, it's obvious that chip damage is strong in LC. However, chip damage is actually much more than that - it's an integral part of why our metagame is balanced despite the fact that we have both Eviolite and Berry Juice. I'm not arguing that these items should be banned - otherwise, we'll likely end up with a rather luck-based metagame similar to DPP LC, made even worse due to the presence of Z moves, and have no way to get out of such a metagame state, which is of course far from ideal. My point is that every single Pokemon in the tier has access to these enormously effective defensive items that level 100 tiers really have nothing close to. By being able to gradually wear these Pokemon down in conjunction with smart plays to pressure them from healing, we have nevertheless been able to create a fun, offensive metagame that, while obviously not being anywhere close to luck-free, is still relatively skillful compared to other metagames. By negating chip damage, Regenerator just about completely throws this out the window.

Let's take a look at my counterarguments for the Diglett-banning argument I described above. For Diglett, I mentioned that risk vs reward wasn't actually skewed against one player in particular. In Regenerator's case, it most certainly is, as it causes certain actions to simply not have any effect in the long run. Without the right Pokemon on your team, Regenerator Pokemon aren't just difficult to break through in the way that you might be put on the back foot against Shellder or Vullaby if you're not prepared for them; they're flat out impossible to take out without significant amounts of luck. No amount of momentum to deny healing moves will save you from having them heal a third of their health just by switching out. This may be less of a concern in other tiers where the key walls tend to be passive enough to be taken advantage of by threatening wall-breakers, but in a metagame like LC that heavily emphasizes maintaining momentum, being hard walled is a huge no-no. As a result, Pokemon that are unable to break through the most popular Regenerator abusers tend to fall into obscurity. For example, without Mienfoo's presence, Munchlax would likely be fairly good, though not amazing, but with Mienfoo, it is almost never seriously considered on a competitive team; and despite having several enormous perks and being fantastic for role compression, defensive Tirtouga isn't even one of the top 20 best Pokemon in LC.

Furthermore, every major Regenerator abuser is very threatening in its own right almost entirely due to Regenerator - while Foongus or Mareanie wouldn't be too viable without Regenerator, they become an extremely potent combination of both difficult to KO and difficult to take advantage of with it. Diglett is a rather poor choice without Arena Trap, and because of this, using Diglett isn't for free - you need a great deal of support to take advantage of Diglett's support through VoltTurn and sacks. However, it'd still likely be more viable than a Regenerator-less Foongus, as Spore alone would not be enough to mitigate Foongus's otherwise underwhelming movepool and stats. Arena Trap may bolster Diglett's viability tremendously, but it doesn't completely eliminate counterplay. Regenerator, on the other hand, does so undoubtedly, and as a result, increases the viability of its users to a far greater extent; their otherwise mediocre strengths are increased so drastically that they can completely get around any disadvantages that their weaknesses might otherwise cause. Items are relatively balanced by how all of the best ones (Eviolite, Berry Juice, Life Orb, Choice Scarf) are substantially stronger in LC than at level 100 because of how stats at level 5 are calculated, meaning there is a significant drawback to using one extremely strong item, in being unable to use the other extremely strong items. Regenerator has no such inhibition - it is a stronger ability than most, causing its users to rely on it to a much greater degree, and has a far better distribution than comparably effective abilities.

What makes a given trait broken? The tiering policy framework states these to be ''elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant'', going on to say that broken traits ''aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.'' This, I feel, applies to a significant extent to both Mienfoo and Foongus. While it isn't outright impossible to build a solid team without a single Regenerator Pokemon, any team will automatically have holes opened in them that aren't straight forward to patch if they aren't included; you are putting yourself at a significant disadvantage that takes an enormous amount of difficulty in the teambuilding stage to effectively remedy, and for just about no gain. This is especially noticeable in tours, where Mienfoo in particular sees ridiculously high usage compared to every other legal Pokemon - it's outright more difficult to build a team without Mienfoo than with one.


II. Potentially broken Regenerator abusers

Now let's take a closer look at each Regenerator abuser, and why Regenerator either pushes them well over the edge or allows them to dance worryingly close to it.



Mienfoo

Since its introduction in BW, Mienfoo has ranked as one of the very most splashable and metagame-defining Pokemon in its respective metagames; while it shares its throne in both of these categories with Misdreavus in BW, it stands uncontested at the very top in SM, ORAS, and late XY. In terms of sheer metagame influence, no other Pokemon in LC can even approach Mienfoo. Its closest competition, Diglett, owes a large portion of its viability to Mienfoo, the most reliable and reusable way to get Diglett into play safely; it's generally quite rare to see Diglett being used without Mienfoo on the best and most consistent teams due to Diglett's lack of reliability without it. There's also the fact that Mienfoo has flat out shaped the metagame more than Diglett has - simply being a Mienfoo answer counts as a niche, and surprisingly enough, being weak to Mienfoo actually seems to be more damaging to a Pokemon's splashability and overall viability than being weak to Diglett (compare Normal-types like Lickitung and Munchlax to Poison-types like Foongus and Mareanie, for example).

Every metagame will have its best Pokemon, of course, so that alone isn't a reason to ban a Pokemon. The reason that Mienfoo is worrisome here is that it stands head and shoulders above the rest of the metagame, and has done so consistently for years. The other S ranks in Diglett, Foongus, and Vullaby may be able to compete in terms of raw effectiveness, but they can't even come close in terms of splashability - it's arguably easier to include Mienfoo on a team than to not do so, and the usage stats show it. Mienfoo is simply so reliable at what it does, can be tailored to fit so many teams, and has so few exploitable weaknesses, that several of the top LCers of today weren't even born the last time it was ranked somewhere other than first on every relevant usage list. While it may be difficult to see Mienfoo as outright broken at first due to the passive playstyle of its most popular set, the Eviolite pivot, but Mienfoo drastically limits diversity in LC in multiple respects on top of toeing the line in terms of strength.

Eviolite Mienfoo is quite possibly the single most dominant set on any Pokemon in LC, with defensive Foongus, Tectonic Rage Diglett, and pivot Vullaby competing for second. EV spreads can be tweaked here - defensive fastfoo (196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe Jolly) and defensive slowfoo (156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD Impish) are the most common variants, but there is plenty of room to increase Attack and get more KOs with High Jump Kick, or increase its HP to 24 to hit a Regenerator number. If you look at Mienfoo's defensive stats, though, they aren't actually very impressive, so why is its most prominent set a defensive one? Simply put, Eviolite Mienfoo owes almost the entirety of its viability to Regenerator. In conjunction with its resistance to Stealth Rock, Mienfoo is deceptively difficult to wear down, allowing it to come in repeatedly to spread Knock Offs and get off safe U-turns. The biggest thing to take away here is that Regenerator makes it far too reliable and consistent a U-turn pivot, making U-turn ridiculously low risk for a potentially enormously reward. Many of the tier's suspected and/or banned offensive Pokemon were only so strong because of Mienfoo's presence - the likes of Torchic, Conversion Porygon (not too bulky without Eviolite), Diglett, and Scarf Gothita all struggled badly to get into play without Mienfoo's aid throughout the match. Its other sets, while good, are nowhere near as prevalent as Eviolite Mienfoo, and in fact owe a large portion of their viability to Eviolite Mienfoo being so common - they often need to take advantage of the opponent assuming an Eviolite set, both while teambuilding and during the actual battle, to succeed.

Now, unlike the other Regenerator users I've listed here, Mienfoo would likely maintain a niche even without Regenerator; its Eviolite set is the only one that truly relies on its ability. Choice Scarf and Life Orb variants often run Regenerator as well, as it is quite helpful to mitigate High Jump Kick misses and generally increase longevity, but they would still be able to make do without it; in fact, Reckless variants of Choice Scarf Mienfoo are just as common as Regenerator variants. Choice Band Reckless Mienfoo has incredible immediate power that allows it to act as a potent wall-breaker. Flyinium Z Mienfoo can act as an effective lure for several important threats, but it is most commonly used for, surprise surprise, Foongus and opposing Mienfoo. Of course, these offensive sets would be noticeably less effective without the Regenerator sets to give them surprise value, but they would still be quite strong on the right teams; notably, Mienfoo has more bulk and immediate power than the only other Fighting-type with U-turn, Mankey, so it would likely continue to perform well on Fighting spam teams. However, there's no question that Mienfoo would drop out of S and even A without Regenerator, as at the end of the day, its Eviolite pivot set is its most notable set, and the reason why it's so difficult to give up. If we get rid of Regenerator, Mienfoo would be downgraded from the single most metagame-warping Pokemon in the tier to a decent Pokemon with a decent niche.



Foongus

Mienfoo may be the most splashable Pokemon in LC, but the title of most broken Pokemon in LC unquestionably belongs to Foongus. Between Spore, a good defensive typing, and above all Regenerator, Foongus cannot be stopped. This is especially true in the current metagame where the sole relevant hard check to all common Foongus variants, Overcoat Vullaby, is on the decline and largely in disuse outside of Choice Scarf variants, which take a large amount from Sludge Bomb. For a large portion of teams, their Foongus answer is simply their own Foongus; this isn't due to a lack of preparation or poor building habits, but rather that Foongus is simply too difficult to check otherwise. A Foongus of your own is far stronger in most matchups than other Foongus answers, and gives you some room to work around the opposing Foongus and get a Fire- or Flying-type or a Tectonic Rage Diglett into play.

Simply put, the LC metagame has become highly Foongus-centric. If you don't have a Foongus on your team, then you have to either build your team such that you have multiple Foongus soft checks and lures to ensure that you aren't weak to it to begin with, or an otherwise generally unviable Foongus hard check to not lose to it, thanks to a well-timed Spore taking out one potential Foongus check and Regenerator allowing Foongus to easily outlast the remaining opposition. This often opens up far more holes and puts you at a disadvantage against other teams, meaning it's usually better to just use a Foongus of your own. Despite being a passive and defensive Pokemon, Foongus will frequently find itself acting as the win condition late game due to it being far healthier than everything else. In fact, you'll find that in the vast majority of games, if one team manages to remove the opposing Foongus while keeping their own Foongus healthy and with an intact Eviolite, then the match has already been decided.

This can be seen in the choice for Foongus's filler move that has become so popular recently, Synthesis. Even though it forces Foongus to give up a useful Hidden Power for coverage or Clear Smog to better check certain sweepers, Synthesis is generally considered the best choice for a filler move right now. Hidden Power Fire and Fighting are still occasionally used for Ferroseed and Pawniard, respectively, but at this point, you can almost always expect Synthesis from the get-go. Why is that? Synthesis does help in other regards, such as helping Foongus outlast Fighting-types, mainly Mienfoo, with even more ease, but the main reason is to help with Foongus mirror matchups; an Eviolite Foongus with Synthesis will always beat an Eviolite Foongus without Synthesis. That's right - in a metagame where Foongus could use its last slot to defeat some top offensive threats with Hidden Power Fighting or Clear Smog, or ensure that Ferroseed's hazards do not become overbearing with Hidden Power Fire, it almost always chooses to use the slot on handling opposing Foongus, because opposing Foongus are that much more difficult to build against. During these Foongus mirror matches, the main way one player is able to gain an advantage, short of stalling out Synthesis or Sludge Bomb PP, is to switch to a Foongus check or Tectonic Rage Diglett while it is using Synthesis (do note that Tectonic Rage Diglett almost never OHKOes Foongus from full health, even if it is Knocked Off).

Without Regenerator, Foongus wouldn't even be viable, as many a teambuilder who forgot to change its ability from Effect Spore can attest to. The whole point of Foongus is that it is able to outlast both its checks and the things it checks alike, while significantly threatening the opposition once it's in play with Spore. If Regenerator is banned, Foongus would not be able to do that. Foongus's statistical bulk isn't actually very good for a dedicated defensive Pokemon, and it tends to be 3HKOed by most of the things it checks; to have any hope of being able to last through the match, a Regenerator-less Foongus would have to click Synthesis constantly. If it's clicking Synthesis constantly, then it can't take advantage of Spore or its decent attacking stats (for a defensive Pokemon). And on top of that, it still wouldn't be able to outlast many opposing threats; being so reliant on Synthesis to stay healthy would cause the move's limited PP to shine through.



Mareanie

Mareanie has really been picking up in popularity recently, and for good reason; being able to completely shut down some of the metagame's biggest threats is helpful, to say the least, and if Mareanie continues to rise, then it's likely that these threats may not be ranked near the top for long. The only reason Mareanie isn't sitting alongside Mienfoo in S is the presence of Diglett. Now, claiming that a metagame without Diglett would be less fun is terrible reasoning for an anti-Diglett ban stance, and should never be used in a serious argument. However, Mareanie's existence is pretty good evidence that the reverse claim of a metagame without Diglett being more fun, or even as fun, doesn't hold very much merit, either. Mareanie is so good in matchups that don't involve Diglett that it's extremely strong to the point of approaching brokenness even with Diglett in the tier; thanks to Regenerator, Mareanie has no trouble coming in, spreading Knock Off and status, and then swapping back out throughout the match. Having fewer weaknesses means that it's even better at hard walling threats than Mienfoo and Foongus are, causing it to be more toxic to the metagame in that regard.

Mareanie wouldn't be rendered completely unviable if Regenerator was banned, as its typing is quite useful, and unlike its Water/Poison-type brethen, it has access to reliable recovery. It most certainly wouldn't be very good, either - discussions about Merciless died down rather early on into SM for fairly obvious reasons. Like Foongus, its statistical bulk isn't very good; without Regenerator, it would be far more reliant on Recover to stay healthy, leaving it with less opportunities to take advantage of its decent support movepool, and far more turns for Diglett to come in on it. If Diglett was to be banned alongside Regenerator, then Mareanie without Regenerator might become decently viable, perhaps a B Pokemon, as it would be the best choice for a Water/Poison-type for slower, semistall teams, offering reliable recovery over Tentacool's role compression and Skrelp's power.



Slowpoke

Unlike the first three Regenerator abusers, Slowpoke is comfortably not broken in the current metagame; its weaknesses to Knock Off and VoltTurn are far too detrimental in a tier where Knock Off and U-turn can almost compete with Stealth Rock as the best move in the game. However, Slowpoke's role in LC can still be construed as somewhat unhealthy. It completely neuters certain Pokemon if the opposing team has them, creating rather uninteractive gameplay by simply coming in on these Pokemon and immediately forcing them out, hoping for a Scald burn on whatever comes in on Slowpoke for there. Due to the fact that Slowpoke isn't very common, this is rarely seen as an issue, and the Pokemon that it hard walls still maintain about the same amount of viability as they would in a metagame without Slowpoke. However, getting rid of Regenerator would eliminate this issue entirely. Without Regenerator, Slowpoke's niche would likely be completely changed but not removed, as at the end of the day, its movepool and stats are actually quite good, allowing it to possibly work as a Calm Mind or Curse sweeper that can still hard wall what it needs to.


III. Regenerator's warping of the metagame

While I feel that a Regenerator ban has plenty of merit on the grounds of it being broken alone, and Mienfoo, Foongus, and Mareanie are all overwhelmingly strong due to Regenerator, arguments could be made for it being too much in terms of metagame health as well. I touched upon this in the previous section for Mienfoo and Foongus, and those two in particular are the main culprits in this regard, as they are two of the most centralizing Pokemon in the metagame alongside Diglett (with Vullaby and Pawniard ranking slightly below in my eyes). If Foongus and especially Mienfoo were banned or heavily nerfed, the metagame would almost assuredly evolve to become almost unrecognizable compared to the current one, certainly to a far greater extent than any of the past few bans that SM LC saw. Mareanie isn't currently overwhelmingly centralizing but is looking to become so at this rate, with Timburrs already beginning to frequently run Thunder Punch.

I won't go into detail on every single one of the specific metagame standards that have resulted from Mienfoo being the face of LC for so long, but I'd like to talk about a few of them just to emphasize how there are vastly more trends resulting from Mienfoo than any other Pokemon in LC. One of the more important trends that Mienfoo enforces is that Normal-types that aren't also Flying-type are rendered all but unviable; Munchlax, Lickitung, and Buneary among others have large movepools to take advantage of their fantastic stats, but their weakness to Fighting is so detrimental that their perks aren't worth it at all. This is undoubtedly primarily due to Mienfoo, as the likes of Munchlax and Lickitung would surely be able to outlast any other Fighting-type. Pawniard and Scraggy have the means to muscle through Mienfoo, and as a result, their viability hasn't dropped quite as much, but it's hard to argue against them rising by a full rank if Mienfoo is to be nerfed. On the other hand, Spritzee is prominent despite its serious drawbacks due to its reliability in checking Mienfoo. Most importantly, Regenerator Poison-types being top tier for their ability to keep up with Mienfoo - we're basically forced to check broken with broken. Mienfoo's influence extends far beyond simply making specific Pokemon better or worse, however; teams based around VoltTurn have consistently ranked among the most dominant archetypes in the metagame for years, and Mienfoo is the centerpiece of this archetype. The reason for VoltTurn being so strong is that it is exceptionally consistent and reliable, and the reason they are so consistent and reliable is because Eviolite Mienfoo is extremely difficult to take out. Without Mienfoo, VoltTurn-based teams would lose much of their safety, allowing the archetype to better fall in line with other strategies. Again, this is not an exhaustive list, as Mienfoo is far too influential for constructing such a list to be feasible.

Foongus is less influential than Mienfoo, but still easily one of the top 5 most influential Pokemon in LC, most likely top 3. Almost every coverage move for Pokemon that struggle against Foongus otherwise is geared towards getting around Foongus first and foremost, including but not limited to Ice Punch on Timburr, Ice Beam and Psychic on Staryu, and Psychic Fangs on Carvanha. Furthermore, if we were to pinpoint the single biggest reason for Water spam falling off, Foongus would be that reason, even moreso than Snivy. It and Snivy are also pretty much the sole reasons for this when you look at how much Foongus puts a stranglehold on what Grass- and Poison-types you should use on a competitive team, as it's simply so much better than its competition at what it does; the other viable Grass- and Poison-types in Snivy, Ferroseed, Mareanie, Croagunk, and Alolan Grimer have to be radically different from Foongus to be able to maintain their viability. We would likely see much more diversity in our choices for defensive Grass- and Poison-types without Foongus. Moving on to other Regenerator abusers, Mareanie is probably among the top 15 most influential Pokemon, if not higher, despite only recently picking up in usage. It doesn't dictate coverage moves to anywhere near the same extent as Foongus, but you still see a lot more Thunder Punch Timburrs and Thunderbolt or Psychic Staryus than you would in a metagame without Mareanie. Slowpoke is at least ranked higher in terms of influence than Tirtouga.

My main point is that there are a lot of metagame trends that can be traced directly to these Pokemon. The reason why there are more trends because of Regenerator users than because of the other comparably effective S rank Pokemon is precisely because of Regenerator. If you aren't prepared for a Regenerator Pokemon, you're completely shut down; a non-Regenerator Pokemon can be gradually worn down by chip damage or pressuring them with strong offensive Pokemon, even if the rest of the team is weak to it, but these simply aren't feasible solutions for dealing with Regenerator Pokemon. Being prepared for Regenerator Pokemon is far more necessary for any amount of consistent success than being prepared for your average threat.

Other than the sheer amount of metagame standards that result from the top Regenerator Pokemon, a lot of them tend to be less than ideal. Most notably, they cause Diglett to be much stronger in several ways; the most obvious one is that Mienfoo is, by a noticeable margin, the single best partner for Diglett in the metagame. A subtler, but arguably even more important cause for Diglett's strength is that Regenerator Pokemon essentially being immune to chip leads to being able to guarantee their removal becoming much more important, and Tectonic Rage Diglett is one of the few ways to do this, alongside fellow trappers in Wynaut and Trapinch and unreliable lures. Another Pokemon whose presence is often frowned upon in terms of metagame health is Abra. Abra's viability is heavily dependent on how well it deals with the most popular metagame threats, seeing how it is relatively straight-forward to trap and play around as a safety net otherwise; it just so happens that the top Regenerator Pokemon are all quite weak to Abra. With that being said, Abra's presence isn't as good of an argument to ban Regenerator, as the existence of Regenerator doesn't inherently improve the viability of Magic Guard safety nets the way it does for trappers, but it may be worth noting anyways.


IV. Suspecting policy and banning Regenerator

There may be some concern regarding whether banning Regenerator is the way to go - wouldn't banning Mienfoo, Foongus, and possibly Mareanie mostly solve the issue as well? In this case, I believe that banning Regenerator is the most elegant and preferable solution.

Firstly, note that we are not discussing a complex ban. The discussion here is on whether to ban Regenerator and only Regenerator - enacting complex bans, such as banning Regenerator solely on Mienfoo and Foongus, could lead to a slippery slope where we come up with more and more complicated bans to eventually allow every Pokemon in the tier (for example, we could theoretically balance Scyther by disallowing Knock Off and offensive STAB moves on it), leading to an overly complicated banlist. It is also much more comparable to banning a Pokemon than to banning a move. While any of the best moves in LC - Stealth Rock, Knock Off, U-turn, Defog, Earthquake - could be framed as "broken" when compared directly to a single Pokemon, this is simply because giving up a moveslot is far less costly in the teambuilding process than giving up an entire Pokemon. On the other hand, while any given team will have room for 24 moveslots, it will only have room for 6 Pokemon and 6 abilities; you can only have one ability per Pokemon, so unlike choosing a move, choosing an ability means that you are completely excluding the potential benefits of all other available abilities. The choice of an ability is important enough to be tied directly to a Pokemon's viability in more cases than not.

Generally, we only ban non-Pokemon elements if they are legitimately what breaks the Pokemon. I have already argued that several Regenerator users are too strong, and I am confident that Regenerator is what causes them to be so; as I discussed earlier, banning Regenerator would surely cause all of its current users to become balanced. Regenerator causing multiple Pokemon to potentially be broken certainly supports this view. Furthermore, if we consider how Regenerator would affect otherwise viable Pokemon, it's likely that the vast majority of them would become overbearing to at least the extent that Mienfoo and Foongus are - just imagine Magnemite, Timburr, or even Frillish with Regenerator. The exceptions here would be Pokemon that are already heavily reliant on their abilities to be viable in the first place, such as Diglett and Snivy.

The main argument against banning Regenerator would be the collateral it causes; while Mienfoo, Foongus, and Mareanie may need to be nerfed, Slowpoke and Solosis are already well balanced. However, I do not think that Solosis meets the baseline in terms of viability to be considered here; it's already more or less completely unviable regardless of its ability, with its sole niche on Trick Room teams departing from LC with Porygon, and whether or not Regenerator is available to it won't change the fact that no competitively minded team will include it. Slowpoke is more of a cause for concern, but while it would definitely get worse without Regenerator, I think that it would still have somewhat of a niche as a setup sweeper and/or utility check thanks to its great stats and movepool, as I mentioned earlier. An argument could also be made that removing Reckless Mienfoo and Merciless Mareanie sets from the tier by banning the broken Regenerator abusers directly would cause larger collateral than removing Regenerator variants of Slowpoke and Solosis from the tier.


In conclusion, I think Regenerator should be banned.
 
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I voluntarily leave the subject. I do not have an opinion on Regenerator, which is certainly the best ability of the format but I can not say if it is really broken. Are the leaders of the Little Cup finally to relax their policy bans? In the end banish an ability would no longer be considered a "complex ban" (I forget the example of Moody, which is a bit old)? Among the forbidden Pokémon, there are at least two who are so because of their abilities: View attachment 108211Vulpix with Drought and View attachment 108212Meditite with Pure Power. Since they are the only ones to learn these capabilities in the format, will we finally see them back to LC? We can expand the question on the ban of some moves: View attachment 108213 Conversion for Porygon and View attachment 108214Quiver Dance for Cutiefly (I'm not saying that are the only reasons for their prohibition, but it is at least the main). Take the example of a Another Metagame: the Middle Cup in 6G. Their policy is different and much more flexible: Combusken is ban for Speed Boost (goal Whirlipede is not broken); Protean (Frogadier) and Contrary (Servine) are prohibited because of a single pokemon learns it in this format. Merritt had already answered me on the subject but I remain on this position
Every single Pokemon you mentioned has a unique trait in LC, Drought, Pure Power, Conversion, and Quiver Dance are all unique to the above Pokemon. Regenerator is on 4 of the best 15 Pokemon in the tier (debateably) and is largely the reason for all of them being so good. Your point makes no sense.
 
I want to chime in on this one, though I don't plan to be as comprehensive in my thoughts as some of the previous posts at this time. The following are notable defensive abilities (or abilities that may be construed as such) available on viable Pokémon in LC:
Magic Guard
Battle Armor
Sturdy
Water Absorb/Compaction/Storm Drain
Volt Absorb
Natural Cure
Intimidate
Levitate
Flash Fire
Shed Skin
Stamina
Magic Bounce
Flame Body
Overcoat
Aroma veil
Iron Barbs
Regenerator

Now compare to the list of defensive abilities held by viable defensive Pokémon:
Sturdy
Regenerator
Aroma Veil
Overcoat
Iron Barbs
Stamina

Out of these, the only defensive abilities that are available to more than one viable defensive Pokémon are Sturdy and Regenerator, and the only Sturdy mon with reliable recovery is magnemite (note that Mag is still primarily an offensive pivot, not a defensive Pokémon). Also, note that in spite of a defensive type, ability, and stats, the only defensive support option ever run on Mudbray is SR, and unlike Onix it isn't even on most sets.
Please know that I have a point here. Regenerator is the only consistent defensive ability available on defensive Pokémon (knock off is too prevalent to call sturdy consistent). It is no wonder therefore that it defines defensive play. Contrary to what has been said, nerfing defensive stalwarts like foongus would not allow other comparable defensive Pokémon to rise, it would simply kill defense as a play style. As I'm personally a fan of balance and semi-stall over hyper offense, it would be really sad to see the LC turned into a strictly HO tier. As far as I can see, far from improving the metagame health, this would destabilize the entire tier. This is pulling the defensive backbone out of practically every team.
I see a lot of similarities between this topic and threads discussing any potential ban of Lando-T in OU. "It's usage is so high it defines the tier (Mienfoo)" and "It is its most common counter (foongus)" are well established as invalid reasons to ban something. (Personally, I wonder who got thrashed so hard that they started asking for this).
In conclusion, I wanna make two points. First, I do not see Regenerator as overcentralizing, because in preparing for Regenerator you have just prepared for basically the entire defensive array in LC, meaning that you didn't just prepare for some specific Pokémon, you've prepared for an entire play style. Second, though i haven't mentioned this so far, it's worth noting that Regenerator actually promotes diversity in the tier. Several Pokémon/team archetypes that would be otherwise less viable or totally unviable due to the already offensive nature of the little cup (ex.: Trick Room, Status Spam, and VoltTurn) can actually be used because they are able to stand with a solid defensive backbone of a Regenerator mon/mons. I've personally been trying to find a viable set for Litten now that it has intimidate, and it's proven a very effective burn spreading, physically bulky pivot with a Regenerator core behind it to take on strong water and ground type moves, and that isn't the only Pokémon I've seen shine when given a quality defensive backbone in this tier.
If I'm able to get the reqs (finals are approaching, sadly, which kinda kills Pokémon time), I will be voting not ban.
 
My thoughts for now aren't gonna be detailed but I'm super suspect on banning Regenerator; it's clearly a defining factor in some of the meta's consistently strongest mons, but I don't think it's nearly the level of ability that would warrant a ban. There exists plenty of counterplay and although repeated switches fighter/foongus are few and far between, I feel like they're definitely something that can be dealt with. I do think it makes team building worse a la Torchic, the previous suspect, but it's not nearly as easy to isolate its effect. I'm heavily against the idea of banning Regenerator as it stands.
 

tcr

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I believe that Regenerator is an unhealthy aspect of the metagame. While clearly not a "broken" ability / concept on the likes of trapping, as shown in higher tiers, in Little Cup Regenerator is essentially a get out of jail free card. In LC, you don't have the option to speed creep like you do in OU and other tiers, because a point of Speed is often giving away the mon's ability to defensively check what it is supposed to check. This incentivizes bad play in the form of mirror matchups. How often have you played a ladder game that came down to which Mienfoo hit HJK first? How many games have you had where the matchup becomes Foongus vs Foongus? That Foongus has to run Synthesis on most sets, giving up clear utility in traditional double powder sets, clear smog, or the lure HP Fighting set, shows just how centralizing Regenerator is. Regenerator elevates otherwise mediocre Pokemon, such as Mareanie, Foongus, and Slowpoke, to massive heights with its ability alone, and this tends to block out a good portion of the metagame because of its prescence (for instance Foongus being literally the only good defensive Grass type despite Chespin, Budew, and Morellul existing, you're a fool if you run anything but Foongus just because its utility and staying power is so good.) Regenerator rewards poor playing for zero cost, there is absolutely no risk to ever run Regenerator, promoting braindead play and exacerbating an already perfunctory metagame and promoting the tier bashing culture of "LC sucks because Mienfoo is primal groudon also Speed ties are cancerous." Personally I will be voting ban as I cannot see any reason for the ability to stay without resorting to traditional arguments or otherwise false reasoning, such as "the metagame after regenerator." Ban Regen.

- tcr signing out
 

jake

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pretty surprised to see i'm in the minority but i think regenerator is not broken, and is in fact a necessity for little cup.

in little cup, defensively-statted pokemon are often outclassed by their more offensive counterparts because of the prevalence of knock off halving defenses; this means that running a fully defensive team is unfeasible and dumb. little cup is already swayed towards the offensive spectrum, and without regenerator, it will become a hellhole of speed ties and fast offensive pokemon that can only be checked by other fast offensive pokemon. i play pokemon to enjoy strategic decisionmaking and to be very mad at missing high jump kicks, not to flip 6 coins with my opponent to see who gets to go first and win.

bluntly, regenerator is the foundation of defensive cores in little cup and should be retained. mienfoo's existence alone allows for players to rely on a bulky core to handle offensive threats, giving the player agency to make their own decisions. that's what makes competitive games fun -- not picking a handful of random pokemon and touting it as diversity. who cares if there's a mienfoo on like 70% of teams? mienfoo is diversity in and of itself, and learning how to handle it and foongus and slowpoke and mare are critical to playing LC well.

and if you're really struggling to handle regenerator pokemon, every single one (except slowpoke i guess but like if you're having trouble with slowpoke you should probably just stop running bad fightspam) can be knocked and subsequently trapped by diglett. it's really not that hard folks
 
There is nothing wrong with a meta game shake up, but at the end of they day any pokemon with regenerator is not hard to counter. Abra by its self counters most of them (if running the right set). Lets take a look at other at some other good abilities such as sturdy + berry juice, overcoat, weak armor, skill link, unburden, aroma veil magic guard, arena trap. The list goes on those are just the ones that come to mind. We did not just get rid of the ability speed boost, if that happened carvanha would see 0 use but carvanha was not the problem torchic and speed passing was. So how do we use this information to translate to this suspect test? Well what pokemon with this ability is so over powered? Surely it can't be mienfoo all you need is a fast attacker like abra or wingull or a slower tank to take hits like foongus or spritzee to counter mienfoo. So on to the next pokemon foongus now that torchic is gone we lost a hard counter to this pokemon, but it is still not hard to kill with any hard hitting fire type, abra, a good flying type, or the best counter to foongus being vullaby with overcoat, so im gonna have to say not overpowered. Slowpoke is the next pokemon with this ability and all you need is grass type or a dark type and with contrary snivy, ferroseed, and pawniard just to name a few running around slowpoke is no where near overpowered. The final pokemon is mareanie now as we all know how good this typing is he is still able to be countered very easy with the best counter being diglett and a good counters being abra, onix, ferroseed, foongus, chinchou, elekid the list goes on this guy is really easy to deal with, so no not over powered. Sorry if i missed a pokemon with the ability but these are the main ones being used anyways. Lets stick to getting rid of overpowered pokemon and not entire abilities that are gonna drop some pokemon to 0% usage rate.
 
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fatty

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laziness, pure laziness. regenerator is just a scapegoat for this long, sad journey we as pokemon players have trekked on towards this "click move -> kill mon" mentality. I hate all the anti-millennial shit and the way old dudes just spout on about how younger generations want everything now, have no patience, blah blah blah. that said, though, i'm going to assume said old dude role now for the sake of this ludicrous suspect.

we play little cup if you guys haven't noticed. this is single-handedly the most offensively inclined metagame on this site (arguably ig). hell, I can't rly think of any other singles metagame where stall is literally unviable. sure there's "fat" teams, but these teams are typically still very capable offensively. knock off, wall breakers everywhere, massive roll parody (looking at you multi hit moves), weird speed tiers where +1 usually means ur outrunning everything; these are all things that help create this offensive atmosphere. yet, there's still bitching about defensive prowess? if these pokemon are so strong and so restrictive, why have we not seen a decline in this offensive nature and a metagame geared more towards these fat stacked teams with multiple regen mons? it's because they would still get ran over. knock off is everywhere, and once knocked these guys simply can't keep up with some of the stronger mons in the tier. regen mons, at least for their sake in lc, are reactionary. there is so much shit to cover, and only 6 slots to do it, making strong pivots a necessity if teams want to go toe-to-toe with other offensive teams. what better pivot than something that can come in, take a hit, and switch right back out with little impunity. not enough defensive prowess to wall things forever, but just enough to not get steamrolled by the myriad of threats available. this is an idea that we've seen pervade almost every sm metagame, it's simply how they've developed in response to the growth of threats. strong mons + strong pivots = wins. in this regard, I would argue that these regen mons are not only healthy for the metagame, but rather a necessity. let's not forget the fact that 3/4 of these mons are direct answers to the omnipotent fighters in the tier, the 4th being one of those fighters. harkening back to knock off, these threats, the ones they're supposed to be countering, are those knock off users.

this isn't even delving into the pokemon individually, which is what we should be doing. for this ban to be considered, regenerator has to seen as broken on at least two of these pokemon. you can't say that about these mons. foongus itself is not broken. mareanie itself is not broken. mienfoo is the only thing I would consider close to being borked, but we've heard no rumblings of it's absurdity until now where it's conveniently wrapped up in this regen package? hmm seems fishy to me.

moving away from the actual mons themselves, if we're legit looking at banning an ability, then why not look at it in that light. regenerator is an ability that allows for a set action to happen. when a mon switches out, it gets 1/3 hp. lt is known by both players and they should be conscious of this at all time. no comparisons can be made to moody, which is the only ability that has ever been banned, because there wasn't that reliability. it also doesn't inherently restrict an opponents ability to act like arena trap / tag can do, which has also been another contentious ability.

to me, this is just people crying about not being able to 2hko everything in the game and/or not wanting to take the time to force these mons to be knocked off or otherwise overpowered. I believe regenerator adds depth to the lc metagame that would otherwise be sorely lacking. it allows for a more tactical match than, let's say, a more dpp-oriented metagame where matches can lean to the more volatile side. not to say dpp isn't tactical, or that this it would be a direct comparison because obviously it would not be, this is just an example of how I believe strong defensive mons help form a better meta. if you fault me for arguing for a preferred metagame rather than the suspect at hand, then I ask you, what exactly is this suspect anyways? a move like this is a push for a metagame change, not for the sheer brokenness of the ability.
 
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Altariel von Sweep

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Honestly, it surprises me to say this, but I want Regenerator banned from Little Cup. The ubiquity of those Pokemon with said ability is insane and conforms a part of our metagame whether it consists of bulky compositions or VolTurn teams, maintaining an insane amount of momentum and being healthy almost 100% of the time. This conducts to a low effort-high reward level of gameplay in which no matter how much you fail, as long you are playing correctly you can afford some mistakes, because you can restore your health! Also, due to that, it's really hard to pressure said abusers (I'll explain this point onward). So, let's do a quick review of these abusers, shall we?

ABUSERS



What makes it a good abuser?
- U-turn
- Defensive prowess
- Offensive pressure

Mienfoo stands indiscutably as the best abuser of Regenerator due to its access to U-turn, which makes easy to abuse it, as well as maintaining an insane amount of momentum. No matter which matchup it has, it can pivot its problems away (e.g. pivoting against a Fairy-type / predicted Diglett switch-in). Adding salt in the bruise, its bulk may seem bad for a Pokémon which offensives are decent, but Regenerator saves the day for defensive variants, as it can replenish health for each switch-out, meaning it can be hard to fully knock out. Definitely a great glue in the inmense majority of teams right now due to said traits.



What makes it a good abuser?
- Insane bulk
- Spore
- Typing

To deal with Foongus is one of the questions of our time. Foongus is stupidly great in this metagame, with its traits compensating its passive game style. Trying to switch to something which actually stops it means that switch loses health of a Sludge Bomb (ignoring if it's poisoned or not), or getting cucked by Spore, which is actually a reason why people is using Overcoat Vullaby or do mirror match-up with their own Foongus. First method is quite unoptimal, as in the moment you try to end with it/restore health, you will get in a very difficult position, be it having to restore health inmediately or losing momentum while your opponent switches to another Pokemon which patch ups the MU. Second one is seen by all a the best option, meaning the pressure it exerts is not healthy for our metagame and encourages pretty low effort playing.



What makes it a good abuser?
- Typing
- Utility options
- Recover

Mareanie is one of the three Pokemon of Little Cup blessed with reliable recovery + Regenerator (Solosis is bad, and 100% uses Magic Guard, though it's really bad), but what it sets it apart from the former two is being Diglett weak, though it can foresee it coming in and whoop it away with Scald. Despite that, it has made its own way by making use of its useful typing by stopping many of the common threats right now, and being the reason of Timburr running Thunder Punch right now. If your match-up against it is bad, expect it recovering health / setting a layer of Toxic Spikes / Knock Off'ing the switch-in, meaning it can exert pressure by many ways as possible. The combination of Recovery + Regenerator along with its great bulk makes it exagerately decent by being able to control said threats constantly, and it's meant to be wary against it.



What makes it a good abuser?
- Speed control
- Insane bulk
- Slack Off
- Coverage options

While not very common due to a weakness to VolTurn and the ubiquity of Knock Off, Slowpoke makes the way to be a good Regenerator abuser. It can threaten many Pokémon thanks to its bulk and the extent of its movepool, meaning not even Grass-types are safe against it, and getting crippled by Thunder Wave is not good either. Despite having very common weaknesses, the bulk makes it insanely hard to knock out, and can catch you offguard if not prepared.

Personally, I haven't got any problem against those Pokemon or the teams where they are located, but their ubiquity and ways to exert pressure if unprepared makes Regenerator absurdly good, and it should be gone. It's true that the metagame will brutally swift if it happens, but hey, I love evolution.

tl;dr: BAN.
 
Woah, what? Why? This isn't OU, where Regenerator defines the stall playstyle. This is LC, where stall doesn't really exist beyond one banned mon (Drifloon). In other tiers, stacking regen mons might be hard to break but in LC it can be done with any one of multiple, highly ranked mons: Abra, Gastly, Carvanha, Diglett after Knock Off, Vullaby, and pretty much every other offensive flying type. Using more than one regen mon inevitably stacks weaknesses to Psychic and Flying that the best mons in the tier can exploit, which means that you have to cover those weaknesses with other pokemon, most of which have no recovery and get worn down easily. This also limits teambuilding options for regen core teams, which means that their composition is easy to predict and counter.

It's also worth noting that the best regen mons aren't actually all that bulky, which means that they can't act as actual walls, only as defensive pivots. Defensive foo has 23/14/14 bulk, foon has 25/14/14 and Mareanie can get 16 def but usually stays at 24/14/14 bulk I believe. Slowpoke is the only regen mon that is also an actual wall, and I don't think anyone is arguing that Slowpoke is broken. Hitting 14 defenses is only the bare minimum threshold for being a defensive mon, so the three best regen mons still have trouble switching into strong neutral hits, especially after Knock Off. Even if you're switching around to keep your regen mons healthy, Knock Off + wallbreaker spamming neutral hits can easily break through regen mons.

Other people above have said this better than I can so I won't go super into the details, but I also believe that Regenerator has a positive effect on the LC metagame by offering defensive options in an otherwise highly offensive metagame. If you ban Regenerator, then the number of viable playstyles in LC will also be severely curtailed.

I really think using a suspect test to decide whether Regenerator should be in LC is a bad idea, because at least some people are likely to vote with their feelings instead of with facts, for all the reasons that fatty detailed above. Because the ability simply annoys some people, they will want it gone, rather than seriously considering the effects it has on the metagame.

Obviously, my vote is DO NOT BAN.
 
Woah, what? Why? This isn't OU, where Regenerator defines the stall playstyle. This is LC, where stall doesn't really exist beyond one banned mon (Drifloon). In other tiers, stacking regen mons might be hard to break but in LC it can be done with any one of multiple, highly ranked mons: Abra, Gastly, Carvanha, Diglett after Knock Off, Vullaby, and pretty much every other offensive flying type. Using more than one regen mon inevitably stacks weaknesses to Psychic and Flying that the best mons in the tier can exploit, which means that you have to cover those weaknesses with other pokemon, most of which have no recovery and get worn down easily. This also limits teambuilding options for regen core teams, which means that their composition is easy to predict and counter.

It's also worth noting that the best regen mons aren't actually all that bulky, which means that they can't act as actual walls, only as defensive pivots. Defensive foo has 23/14/14 bulk, foon has 25/14/14 and Mareanie can get 16 def but usually stays at 24/14/14 bulk I believe. Slowpoke is the only regen mon that is also an actual wall, and I don't think anyone is arguing that Slowpoke is broken. Hitting 14 defenses is only the bare minimum threshold for being a defensive mon, so the three best regen mons still have trouble switching into strong neutral hits, especially after Knock Off. Even if you're switching around to keep your regen mons healthy, Knock Off + wallbreaker spamming neutral hits can easily break through regen mons.

Other people above have said this better than I can so I won't go super into the details, but I also believe that Regenerator has a positive effect on the LC metagame by offering defensive options in an otherwise highly offensive metagame. If you ban Regenerator, then the number of viable playstyles in LC will also be severely curtailed.

I really think using a suspect test to decide whether Regenerator should be in LC is a bad idea, because at least some people are likely to vote with their feelings instead of with facts, for all the reasons that fatty detailed above. Because the ability simply annoys some people, they will want it gone, rather than seriously considering the effects it has on the metagame.

Obviously, my vote is DO NOT BAN.
So your argument for why Regenerator shouldn't be banned is that stall isn't good in LC? I've said this one million times, but LC IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE OU (nor any other tier). Even bringing up stall is taking away from the actual arguments. You also mention "regen core teams" as being easy to predict and counter. I don't understand why this point is at all relevant. Sun teams were also extremely predictable and cookie cutter (bar things like double, triple, quad sun that were not THAT common) and we banned them nevertheless. Why? Because it was extremely hard to build a solid team that could also deal with sun, and as infamy said, building while also being able to beat regen core teams is pretty hard. Your final (I guess second to last but I'll get to that later) point is that Regenerator Pokemon aren't that bulky. My response to this is: "Yes, yes they are" although not "walls" as defined by a bulkier metagame like OU, bulky Regenerator pivots are some of the best defensive threats in the tier, only outmatched by Spritzee and Ferroseed and if you really want Lickitung. This is defined not only by their above average bulk, but also by their great typings, Mienfoo excluded cause it's a whole different case. Mareanie is one of the best Fighting-checks, Fairy-checks, Fire-checks, Water-types, and general stop to sweepers like Shellder and Vullaby with Haze. Foongus is also a stellar Fighting- and Fair-check, while being (in my opinion) the best Water-check in the tier, as although Ferroseed is bulky, Foongus can continually regain health with Regenerator, as it can force opponents out, switch out in turn, and give a Foongus user extra momentum. Slowpoke is also a very very very very very good check to Water- and Fire-types, and is also one of the best checks to Rock- and Ground-types, particularly Mudbray and Onix. Mienfoo is weird because it is the best offensive pivot in the tier, debatably only second to Vullaby, and one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, as it is extremely hard to switch in on due to Knock Off and U-turn being so good. Basically what I'm saying is that saying Regenerator users don't have some of the best defensive prowess in the tier is false. And on to your last paragraph. You claim that people will vote with feelings over facts. This is true for every single vote that has happened in Pokemon, and in real life, and claiming that Regenerator specifically will cause people to vote more with feelings is absurd in my opinion. People who vote with emotions will do so, but those who don't will look at the facts. I don't see why a Regenerator ban is any more emotion driven than a Torchic ban. As a final note, I am currently pro ban, but am still open to changing my mind.
 
Okay so my posts aren't exactly well written and thought provoking but I couldn't resist. If anything I say is just rehashing what's been said or is just generally unhelpful/objectively wrong then please do tell me, don't want to clog threads up with shitty posts.

From what it feels like reading all this I'm missing the distinction people are making between GOOD pokemon/abilities and BROKEN ones. This might be just me, but a lot of what I've read is just generally positive things about the Pokemon and why it's good without any actual reason to why it's necessarily broken. I get there's a line between good and too good, but some of ya'll are gonna need to draw that line nice and clear for us.

The only argument I saw that makes an actually good case for regen being detrimental is levi's. Otherwise, regen just feels like a strong element that we have to work around, not something that we need to get rid off. It's arguably healthy from the defensive standpoint as it gives actual reliable defensive pivoting options, and while its subjectively frustrating as fuck and I'd personally like to throw marine into a fucking fire, I can't in good conscious support that.

Vully 1v1s 3/4 of the regen core and Marine isn't switching in either. Abra beats 3/4 of it depending on set, Gastly gives them a hard time and Dig RK's them if needed. I know that no one is going to keep on these Pokemon since, you know Regen, but the point is that they overlap common weaknesses and can't carry teams. None of these Pokemon are exactly otherwise unviable so you're not running obscure pokemon just for the sake of beaten regen cores, and has people mentioned earlier regen mons have little synergy with each other. They still need non-regen teammates to fill gaps, to lure and take out threats and to keep up momentum since they can't do it all on their own every match. I don't know about you but doesn't this just sound like good building?

Regen is strong and frustrating, I can totally see why people want it gone. But I just can't say that regen is actually broken in a tier like LC where it actually makes balance possible. I feel like the problem is more that it both helps and hurts the most common playstyle (VolTurn) in equal measure, which is annoying and difficult to deal with. But I don't think that alone makes it banworthy.

I'm a bit dumb though so w/e.
 

fatty

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
So your argument for why Regenerator shouldn't be banned is that stall isn't good in LC? I've said this one million times, but LC IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE OU (nor any other tier). Even bringing up stall is taking away from the actual arguments. You also mention "regen core teams" as being easy to predict and counter. I don't understand why this point is at all relevant. Sun teams were also extremely predictable and cookie cutter (bar things like double, triple, quad sun that were not THAT common) and we banned them nevertheless. Why? Because it was extremely hard to build a solid team that could also deal with sun, and as infamy said, building while also being able to beat regen core teams is pretty hard. Your final (I guess second to last but I'll get to that later) point is that Regenerator Pokemon aren't that bulky. My response to this is: "Yes, yes they are" although not "walls" as defined by a bulkier metagame like OU, bulky Regenerator pivots are some of the best defensive threats in the tier, only outmatched by Spritzee and Ferroseed and if you really want Lickitung. This is defined not only by their above average bulk, but also by their great typings, Mienfoo excluded cause it's a whole different case. Mareanie is one of the best Fighting-checks, Fairy-checks, Fire-checks, Water-types, and general stop to sweepers like Shellder and Vullaby with Haze. Foongus is also a stellar Fighting- and Fair-check, while being (in my opinion) the best Water-check in the tier, as although Ferroseed is bulky, Foongus can continually regain health with Regenerator, as it can force opponents out, switch out in turn, and give a Foongus user extra momentum. Slowpoke is also a very very very very very good check to Water- and Fire-types, and is also one of the best checks to Rock- and Ground-types, particularly Mudbray and Onix. Mienfoo is weird because it is the best offensive pivot in the tier, debatably only second to Vullaby, and one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, as it is extremely hard to switch in on due to Knock Off and U-turn being so good. Basically what I'm saying is that saying Regenerator users don't have some of the best defensive prowess in the tier is false. And on to your last paragraph. You claim that people will vote with feelings over facts. This is true for every single vote that has happened in Pokemon, and in real life, and claiming that Regenerator specifically will cause people to vote more with feelings is absurd in my opinion. People who vote with emotions will do so, but those who don't will look at the facts. I don't see why a Regenerator ban is any more emotion driven than a Torchic ban. As a final note, I am currently pro ban, but am still open to changing my mind.
and yet your entire point is regen mons are good because they check stuff, must be broken. I’m curious as to why you replied to this dudes post rather than mine when I essentially had the same points. I even mention stall! And btw, Bradley mentions in his first couple sentences the same point you initially argue, that lc is not ou. So uh yeah. His voting with feelings point I take as more of choosing a metagame rather than deciding whether individual mons were broken. Torchic is literally the exact opposite, no metagame change, just a single broken mon. Idk trying to get something discernible out of your post but can’t find anything substantial.
 
I'm actually surprised that the majority of people want regenerator gone, of course it is annoying but a necessary "evil" to prevent a meta where HO takes over. Just like in USUM OU there are a lot of good pokemon with regen but LC is not OU where Regen mons like Toxapex and Tangrowth turn battles into snoozefests. With the very common knock off severely crippling every regen mon and Offensive mons like Abra, Diglett and Gastly pressuring regen mons there is a lot of viable counterplay.

The only pokemon i see as a minor problem is foongus, that basically invalidates every other defensive grass type because it's just that reliable and bulky, but that's just how competitive pokemon works, the better pokemon gets used and that is not a reason to ban a certain mon imo

In conclusion i think Regenerator adds a good depth to the LC metagame that supports good play and saves the tier from turning into a shitfest based on speedties and HO on HO action, so if i find the time to get reqs i will vote do not ban
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
ridiculously busy, probs wont get reqs bUT
was completely blindsided by the news that regen was getting tested
it's completely healthy in our meta (maybe foon isn't, but rise of flyspam has helped it not become overcentralizing) ill talk about the mons abit
IMO mienfoo is overcentralizing but not overpowered enough to merit a ban of any part of it. it helps check many threats that only timburr can. (timburr ill get to in a sec). and it has its share of checks: spritzee (which has gained popularity b/cuz of mien, to the point where mien runs pjab), abra, vully*, ghost types like frillish, and the ever present normal/flyings that populate our tier. U-turn + regen is, admittedly, a lil bit broken. doing damage and recovering. i can't argue that. but we are always looking for hard hitting voltturners.
foon is probably the most broken as spore is 100% sleep, helping neutralizing would be checks. however, again, the tier is set to handle it, with mons like snivy absorbing, and overcoat mons such as vullaby and burmy being immune to it. in addition, grass is a terrible defensive type, and, while poison is an excellent one, grass leaves foon weak to the aforementioned flying types. foon can be an excellent anti-lead to onix. foon will suffer the least with the ban, IMO. having access to synthesis really means it doesn't have to rely on regen as much, just in a last ditch effort. i will say one thing i haven't seen mentioned. it's only other ability, effectspore, could end up being a curse for a mon reliant on spore. foon will usually move last. if it accidentally statuses a mon and is unable to spore (lets say, worst case, it accidentally burns a timburr w/ guts, but para on any phys attacker will ruin it) foon must switch out and all. either way, regen definitely isnt broken on foon.
maraenie is the main reason i dont want this ability banned. it's a very interesting mon for the meta, and so, so, healthy even if it is annoying. a fighting check that brings back the tspike meta? yes. please. with access to scald? *changes pants*. great typing, and, while it does usually carry recover > knock off, becomes a reliable tspikes and fighting check that doesn't get worn down. maraenie is the type of broken that you don't really notice at first. but it really does things well. IMO, maraenie is just as good of a regen abuser as mienfoo (the real reason for the suspect) but it still. isn't. broken. easily checked by special attackers (abra, magnemite, gastly w/ tbolt, cm sprit w/ psychic), and trapped by dig, as well as passiveness make this mon not really broken either.
im still not really sold on a mon weak to volt switch, uturn, and knock off. others are. slowpoke is most definitely not broken, esp w/ torchic ban

Finally, and here's my main thing: if mien goes, timburr becomes overcentralizing. We tend to like to suspect bans we find overcentralizing or annoying, using emotions over reasoning. (legitimately, i wanted torchic gone because i had only like 10 teams to delete and the chicken annoyed me). Mienfoo is everywhere. It's hard to build without. But once it goes, it'll just be replaced by timburr. And a month later, we'll be right back, trying to ban timburr.

TL;DR Don't ban. Not broken, and you'll end up unironically using crabrawler in a few months after timburr falls too.
 

Coconut

W
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
LC Leader
Finally, and here's my main thing: if mien goes, timburr becomes overcentralizing. We tend to like to suspect bans we find overcentralizing or annoying, using emotions over reasoning. (legitimately, i wanted torchic gone because i had only like 10 teams to delete and the chicken annoyed me). Mienfoo is everywhere. It's hard to build without. But once it goes, it'll just be replaced by timburr. And a month later, we'll be right back, trying to ban timburr.
Just putting this out as a PSA because I've seen stuff like this thrown around a ton. I don't mean to call out this user in particular I'm sure he's very friendly but there's been like 6 people who are using an argument similar to this. This is called a slippery slope fallacy, and should never be used as a reasoning for banning a Pokemon. We are not able to predict what the metagame will become in the future for certain, as there are a myriad of variables that could change. More importantly, we are worried about what the current metagame game is now, not what it will become later.

Keep up the wonderful discussion everyone!
 

chimp

Go Bananas
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Regenerator isn't a problem. Each of the Pokemon that get it have other qualities that make them stand out even without Regenerator. Seems like more people have a problem with Mienfoo and Foongus (the foo boys) themselves rather than Regenerator. Slowpoke and Marenie are good but far from broken to the point where there needs be a ban. Banning regenerator would be like giving a band-aid to a cancer patient. It won't solve the issue you're trying to solve. At best a ban will make the metagame /slightly/ more offensive and at worst it'll see the death of 3 defensive pivots. All the points I've seen promoting a Regen ban can be made for Eviolite or Berry Juice and I see no reason to ban either.

That said, I am of the opinion that we should be striving for a more fun metagame. Not banning something that is decidedly NOT broken even if it is extremely unfun to play against is unhealthy imo. So if enough people really think it'll make it more fun, then by all means get rid of it. I know for sure I'd get more into the meta again if a ban goes through. But is it broken? I don't think so. Of course using this logic I'd have given the boot to knock off ages ago but here we are.

It's going to take a LOT of arguments to convince me that regenerator is broken and none of the posts I've seen in this thread are very strong imo. (Though I didn't read Levi's because gosh dang).

Also: listing Pokemon and what they do in the meta does not make for a convincing argument. You can tell me all day about how slowpoke walls mudbray and onix but that isn't really an argument at all.
 

Sken

feet of clay
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Ok I feel like I have to post my thoughts on this as a council member; I'm going to vote do not ban because I think regenerator is a healthy addition to the metagame. Common wisdom says that every decent LC team should have at least one regenerator user, it's something I try to have on every team. Regenerator pokemon are able to sponge hits which is much needed due to the offensive nature of LC, and these mons make excellent pivots to help allow offensive threats to come in and sweep. There is little reason to not use one of the many regenerator users because of this.

Much in the way Stealth Rock has an incredible influence on the metagame, Regenerator has a lesser but comparable influence in LC. Since BW, Regenerator has been a staple of LC and been a useful piece for keeping many offensive threats at bay. For me, Stealth Rock is a decent comparison for the value it adds to a team and the large impact it has throughout the match, though Stealth Rock is offensive while Regenerator is defensive. Both enable new strategies and a general diversity in the tier, and there is little reason not to make use of these on most if not every team. Is the passive nullification of residual damage necessarily broken? I'm not exactly sure. Regardless to that answer, Regenerator positively adds to LC much in the same way Berry Juice and Stealth Rock do.

With regenerator gone, the impact in the metagame would be too big and it would turn into an awful meta and I like it the way it is right now. I don't want to ladder for reqs for repeated suspects over and over until we become basically lc uu, and I also personally don't want all my teams become useless.

tl;dr regenerator, as stealth rock, might be broken, but they are rather necessary



much love bros keep laddering :heart:
 
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