Resource LC Viability Rankings

[tcr]

No matter how popular Fletchling gets, Diglett should never be A rank. Diglett has too much opportunity cost associated with it, as it requires aggressive, risky play, often sacrificing a pokemon just to ko something. It cannot switch in on any pokemon for free ever, it can often lose if sr is up, and its complete setup bait for misdreavus (unless you use memento and even then it requires extensive play to setup correctly, as misdreavus can carry moves such as tant, trick, or willo.) Diglett is also weak without a life orb, and is still pretty weak compared to other HO threats. Pursuit trappers such as Houndour did not rise to A rank duong Krowtite, even though they were really common partners and useful partners. Diglett is a weaker Drilbur, its speed isnt even useful anymore because the only 19 Spe that should be relevant is Misdreavus. Most mons now run bulkier sets, and those that dont run priority. Oftentimes it fails at helping fletching, as Archen is a common partner, and Solid Rock Tirtouga beats Diglett with Aqua Jet+Stealth Rocks. Two common checks to Fletchling, which Diglett is suppose to be the perfect partner for bird. I would put Diglett at B rank.

Tl;dr its weak relatve to others, often failing to even beating Fletchling's counters, which is Digletts job. It has a thin niche, and is easily beaten.

 

[Heysup]

Thief > Misdreavus :)

 

[Wobbyble]

Its called volturn which is a very playable style considering how fletch gets u-turn and it checked by most of the mons diglett likes to trap (aside from archen but volturn=chinchou sometimes. Also sand force diglett relied on a non boosted LO suckerpunch to beat stuff it couldn't outspeed (scarfers and shit)/priority users,which isn't that strong when croagunk would fucking rape you with an LO vaccum wave then let a gligar finish you off or something. also snover was pretty common,

u didnt run sucker punch on SF diglet. didn't need priority when you 2HKOd everything besides bronzor and lickitung

glad i could turn the discussion around, such a large risk vs small reward pokemon doesnt belong in A and never should

 

[JacobMesecar]

Has anything been said about Joltik? He did pretty well for me last generation.

 

[doomsday doink]

Has anything been said about Joltik? He did pretty well for me last generation.

Joltik can't hold its own with the better electric types in the tier, like Chinchou and Magnemite. Also, it can't really abuse Compound Eyes without Thunder and it doesn't get Sticky Web. It's not a great Pokemon and its only real niche as an Electric type is energy ball.

 

[Celestavian]

I'm gonna agree with prem here and say that Croagunk should stay B. Croagunk is a good Pokemon in that it can do a lot of different stuff, but it doesn't really stand out in any one area. As a pivot, Mienfoo is better in most cases, except against opposing Fighting-types or Fairies. It's faster, hits harder, and has huge staying power with Regenerator + DP. As a Bulk Up user, I say, why not Timburr instead? It has more power, more bulk, immunity to burn's Attack drop, and arguably better priority. If you're using a Nasty Plot set it's a little less outclassed, but I'd still give the edge to Misdreavus, who once again has more bulk and power, as well as that key 19 Speed and perfect coverage in two moves. IDK what else this thing runs but these are what I'd say are the 3 main sets I could see it running.

Croagunk is very good at filling a very specific hole in your team, but outside of that, there are generally better options out there, which is why I believe Croagunk should stay in B.

 

[Pancham]

Honestly, if you think Bulk Up and Nasty Plot are the main sets of Croagunk, I am questioning your credibility on the subject.

Croagunk has the ability to switch in on every Fighter and fairy type in the tier, and beat them, is immune to Scald burns, which everybody hates, easily kills Tirtouga and Carvanha, doesn't mind burns, like Timburr, due to its best set being a mixed attacking set, has amazing typing and utility for this meta, has decent bulk letting it do beat anything you want it to, and then some. Croagunk is absolutely incredible this meta.

Also, Vacuum Wave from 16 SpA is pretty good, Timburr's Mach Punch off 18 Atk is barely better, and there are also more defensive walls than special walls, so.......

One more thing, how is beating every fighter in the tier as well as the ability to beat Carvanha, Tirtouga, Every fairy, and many other common threats in the tier a "very specific role"?

 

[Amp Pharaohs]

Just a few things I don't agree with and a few things I do agree with I feel like addressing

Croagunk has the ability to switch in on every Fighter and fairy type in the tier, and beat them, is immune to Scald burns, which everybody hates, easily kills Tirtouga and Carvanha, doesn't mind burns, like Timburr, due to its best set being a mixed attacking set, has amazing typing and utility for this meta, has decent bulk letting it do beat anything you want it to, and then some. Croagunk is absolutely incredible this meta.

As for switching into "every" Fairy-type, out of the three relevant Fairies, Snubbull can hit with Earthquake (dealing a significant portion of its HP), which is pretty a major threat to Croagunks ability to switch in.
However I do agree that it has quite the advantage against Cottonee and Spritzee compared to the other Fighting-types. Switching into Chinchou is also a great advantage over the other Fighting-types.
Any mixed attacking set will mind burns, since it loses out on threatening physical attacking options (hence the name, mixed) and any form of recovery, reducing its longevity quite a bit.

Also, Vacuum Wave from 16 SpA is pretty good, Timburr's Mach Punch off 18 Atk is barely better, and there are also more defensive walls than special walls, so.......

Hitting walls with priority is hardly a relevant fact, especially considering the major physical "walls" already resist Fighting-type, or don't care about either weak priority. If you were regarding a general fact of physical walls existing, then I can agree with it, considering its mixed attacking options/typing give it an edge against things other Fighters can't handle

One more thing, how is beating every fighter in the tier as well as the ability to beat Carvanha, Tirtouga, Every fairy, and many other common threats in the tier a "very specific role"?

Again, beating "every" Fairy is incorrect, as a Snubbull Earthquake is still going to deal serious damage, "every" Fighter is a little absolute, as Riolu can easily run Zen Headbutt, and any set lacking Vacuum Wave loses to Earthquake Tirtouga, and always loses if Tirtouga has Sturdy intact with Earthquake.

I don't know how organized this post was, but to sum up my thoughts: I don't think much has the ability to "outclass" Croagunk in any a simple sense, however I'm uncertain of how well it performs its own unique role. It has the ability to do plenty of things that other Fighting-types can't to much success, so it may be A-rank material just for that.

 

[Celestavian]

I never said they are THE main sets, but rather sets that it can run in addition to the pivot set.

If by "beat" every Fighter in the tier, you mean switch in, get Knocked Off, and then they switch out, then sure, it does that well. Even if they stay in, not all fighters are opposed to taking Croagunk on 1v1. Timburr, for instance, sets up Bulk Up right in Croagunk's face and can beat it after just two boosts, even with its Eviolite removed by Croagunk. Also, unlike the other tiers, Scald is not the main source of burn in LC. Will-o-Wisp users and Flame Body Pokemon account for way more burns than Scald, of which I can only think of Chinchou and Slowpoke as common Scald users. Tirtouga and Carvanha are also beaten by Mienfoo, who has Fake Out and a stronger Drain Punch to get through the former's high Defense stat. As for Fairy-types, I should actually say Fairy-type because there is exactly one worth mentioning: Spritzee. Snubbull is kinda bad in this meta, so I don't think it counts.

Finally, I don't think beating every other Fighting-type is such a huge deal, since there are three others worth mentioning: Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Timburr. I've already established that Croagunk doesn't beat Timburr without having its own Bulk Up boosts, so that leaves Mienfoo and Scraggy. Scraggy can possibly run Zen Headbutt (much less common now that Spritzee is around) which doesn't OHKO Mienfoo but sure knocks Croagunk for a loop. Mienfoo will never stay in on Croagunk, instead using it's higher Speed to get a free Knock Off + U-turn while mitigating any priority from Croagunk with Regenerator. Yeah, forcing a switch is kinda "beating" Mienfoo, but when Croagunk takes more damage from the encounter than Mienfoo does, I'm not certain that it was a full victory.

I say it's a specific role because the other, better Fighting-types are adequate for checking what Croagunk checks. If your team gets destroyed by Carvanha or hard-walled by Spritzee, then consider Croagunk. However, if that's not the case, than other fighters like Mienfoo and Timburr can cover more threats better than Croagunk can.

 

[Merritt]

Croagunk has the ability to switch in on every Fighter and fairy type in the tier, and beat them, is immune to Scald burns, which everybody hates, easily kills Tirtouga and Carvanha, doesn't mind burns, like Timburr, due to its best set being a mixed attacking set, has amazing typing and utility for this meta, has decent bulk letting it do beat anything you want it to, and then some. Croagunk is absolutely incredible this meta.

Also, Vacuum Wave from 16 SpA is pretty good, Timburr's Mach Punch off 18 Atk is barely better, and there are also more defensive walls than special walls, so.......

One more thing, how is beating every fighter in the tier as well as the ability to beat Carvanha, Tirtouga, Every fairy, and many other common threats in the tier a "very specific role"?

Croagunk may have the ability to switch in on every fighting type, but Trubbish does it better. Trubbish actually does everything, short of knock off and priority, better than Croagunk. Switching in on the fighting types isn't a unique niche, and switching in on fairies isn't even particularly impressive, especially considering that there are really only three relevant ones, and of them, one is a support threat, one is a defensive threat, and the last, the offensive threat, can beat Croagunk. Even then, croagunk isn't the best answer to any of the fairies, as they hit it for neutral damage with STAB moonblast/dazzling gleam/play rough, unlike any other steel or poison type.

Croagunk has, at best, decent bulk, but in no way spectacular bulk. It's not great by any means, and the lack of recovery outside of the relatively weak drain punch hurts it. When it gets knocked off, as it likely will considering that it's switching into fighting types, its previous decent bulk becomes horrible, resulting in an inability to do its job effectively.

Vacuum wave is what Croagunk has that differentiates itself from the rest of the meta, but why use it over Timburr's mach punch? The only walls in the tier that are physically defensive that you might want to hit with vacuum wave are virtually nonexistent. Walls in the tier that Croagunk might want to hit include chinchou (who actually has better special bulk than physical if both are uninvested), Spritzee (where vacuum wave is a stupid move in general), defensive Tirtouga (but Tirtouga isn't likely to stay in), and maybe Vullaby (but staying in on the flying type isn't the brightest idea). There are others, but for the most part, Croagunk isn't going to be your best choice for them.

While the ability to beat Carvanha is useful, defensive snover can do it too. Being more serious, mach punch timburr beats it as well, as it can tank an aqua jet. Tirtouga is more useful to beat, but if it's one of the far less common earthquake sets, then Croagunk will lose. Croagunk is outclassed in its various roles, so it should stay B.

 

[boo836]

Croagunk may have the ability to switch in on every fighting type, but Trubbish does it better. Trubbish actually does everything, short of knock off and priority, better than Croagunk. Switching in on the fighting types isn't a unique niche, and switching in on fairies isn't even particularly impressive, especially considering that there are really only three relevant ones, and of them, one is a support threat, one is a defensive threat, and the last, the offensive threat, can beat Croagunk. Even then, croagunk isn't the best answer to any of the fairies, as they hit it for neutral damage with STAB moonblast/dazzling gleam/play rough, unlike any other steel or poison type.

Croagunk has, at best, decent bulk, but in no way spectacular bulk. It's not great by any means, and the lack of recovery outside of the relatively weak drain punch hurts it. When it gets knocked off, as it likely will considering that it's switching into fighting types, its previous decent bulk becomes horrible, resulting in an inability to do its job effectively.

Vacuum wave is what Croagunk has that differentiates itself from the rest of the meta, but why use it over Timburr's mach punch? The only walls in the tier that are physically defensive that you might want to hit with vacuum wave are virtually nonexistent. Walls in the tier that Croagunk might want to hit include chinchou (who actually has better special bulk than physical if both are uninvested), Spritzee (where vacuum wave is a stupid move in general), defensive Tirtouga (but Tirtouga isn't likely to stay in), and maybe Vullaby (but staying in on the flying type isn't the brightest idea). There are others, but for the most part, Croagunk isn't going to be your best choice for them.

While the ability to beat Carvanha is useful, defensive snover can do it too. Being more serious, mach punch timburr beats it as well, as it can tank an aqua jet. Tirtouga is more useful to beat, but if it's one of the far less common earthquake sets, then Croagunk will lose. Croagunk is outclassed in its various roles, so it should stay B.

Croagunk might be outclassed in its various roles, but no other Pokemon serves the set of roles that Croagunk can fill. Priority, Knock Off, Water Absorber, checking Fairies and Fighting Types, and beating Carvanah and Tirtouga amounts to a pretty impressive list. Its real role isn't in one of those things, but all of them, which no other Pokemon can do. While I'd agree that Croagunk is B because of it isn't particularly threatening, I would also argue that in terms of viability however that it likely should be A. This has more to do with the current meta than the game as a whole, though.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Croagunk may have the ability to switch in on every fighting type, but Trubbish does it better. Trubbish actually does everything, short of knock off and priority, better than Croagunk.

Your statement isn't exactly incorrect; however, you have to take into account that knock off and priority are HUGE advantages. Being able to deal heavy damage to Misdreavus switch-ins as well as crippling almost everything else is extremely useful, as is revenge-killing weakened threats.

Vacuum wave is what Croagunk has that differentiates itself from the rest of the meta, but why use it over Timburr's mach punch?

Mach Punch really isn't that much more powerful than Vacuum Wave, so you could say the opposite as well, I guess.
Also, let's assume hazards are in play:
108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tirtouga: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 92 Def Tirtouga: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
Timburr will have to be much healthier than Croagunk has to be if it hopes to win, since it's forced to rely on drain punch instead. In addition, if Timburr is weak enough, it will wall to Aqua Jet; Croagunk faces no such issue thanks to Dry Skin.

Croagunk is outclassed in its various roles, so it should stay B.

A combination of Trubbish + Timburr would indeed be more effective at beating specific threats than Croagunk alone would be able to in most scenarios, but the difference is that Croagunk only takes up one slot. This means that momentum-gaining strategies are marginally less effective against Croagunk, since Croagunk will be able to beat more Pokemon at once, but more importantly, you can use that extra slot you've freed up by using Croagunk for something else, such as a win condition or an all-purpose wall or whatever else you want. Other than that, Croagunk beats Scraggy slightly more easily than either Trubbish or Timburr.

I think Croagunk is comparable to Chinchou (not better or worse - just comparable) in that although it isn't exceptionally bulky or powerful, it can do so many things as just one Pokemon that it remains a very high tier poke regardless.

 

[Celestavian]

Except Chinchou is bulky and more powerful than Croagunk is, while also being faster. Chinchou has access to Hydro Pump for power or Scald for burn utility, has Volt Switch to conserve momentum, Heal Bell for clerical support, can use RestTalk, etc. Chinchou was also pretty much the only viable Pokemon capable of taking on LO Murkrow back in the day. Also, there is a role that Chinchou is not outclassed at: bulky Water-type. It is the premiere bulky water in the tier, since Slowpoke takes so much from Knock Off. It has great typing that makes it one of the best Fletchling checks in the tier. Chinchou does so much more than Croagunk, and I don't really think they are comparable.

 

[tcr]

The reason Croagunk shouldn't be A rank is that it really DOESN'T check/ counter Fighting-types and Fairy-types. Yeah, it can switch in, and take maybe 20-40% from attacks. But then what? your opponent is going to be stupid and just let you beat them one on one? No, they are going to swithc out, to something more threatening, such as Dribur or Diglett or something. Like any pokemon. Croagunk doesn't "beat" anything and should not be played as such. It is supposed to be conserved towards the end of a match, when the opponent goes for a Tirtouga sweep, or to a Carvanha sweep, or to a Scraggy sweep. Only bad players really consistently switch Croagunk in. Croagunk is too weak to ever do anything threatening, and tbh doesn't even put any pressure on the opponent that is worthwhile. unless the opponent plays really badly, or builds their team badly, they will always have an answer to Croagunk and will always force it out. It should be used a "fallback pokemon" or a "glue." When you build a team that mght not be the very best like no team ever was, and you need something that can be offensive and patch up holes, Croagunk is the pokemmon to pick. You literally NEVER build a team around Croagunk, and if you do you are most likely a bad player. Because it may not require "support" in the traditional sense, people may think it is A rank, for the supposed ability to beat various Fighting- and Fairy-types. But it does require a team that has trouble with a certain pokemon. If pokemon arent on the opponents team, Croagunk will almost always be useless, and this unreliability in casual battles is why I think Croagunk deserves B rank. That and that Croagunk will almost never beat Fighting-types and Spritzee, because they will always switch out, often doing a good job and doing 20-40% to it.

 

[chimp]

I don't mean to sound rude or snarky but I feel like a lot of this is just theorymoning.

I've fought and used a lot of croagunk lately and I've always felt in a pinch when I need to switch into it. If you switch in Fletchling then it'll lose ~50% of HP and gunk will get its HP back. Similarly, Drilbur takes ~30%. Diglett is removed by Drain Punch + Vacuum Wave. You can't switch Misdreavus in for fear of Knock Off, and you can't switch fairies in for Sludge Bomb. So what does that leave? Vullaby? Abra? A good portion of the A tier is afraid of gunk.
Does this make me a bad player? Maybe so; but this is just from what I've been seeing lately.

I don't understand why "forcing a pokemon to switch out" is being used as a negative thing. It gives you momentum, you can always double switch to something and possibly remove a croagunk counter, or you can predict and hit the switch in with a SE move.

Though, I can see it in B for the same reasons as something like Larvesta or Onix or Snubbull.

 

[tcr]

I don't understand why "forcing a pokemon to switch out" is being used as a negative thing. It gives you momentum, you can always double switch to something and possibly remove a croagunk counter, or you can predict and hit the switch in with a SE move.

Though, I can see it in B for the same reasons as something like Larvesta or Onix or Snubbull.

Forcing a pokemon out is a bad thing when people argue that Croagunk beats Fighting- and Fairy-types. You really don't get that much momentum, as any good team has an answer to Croagunk (and using bad teams to further a point does not constitute a rise in rank). Croagunk gives the "illusion" of safety, when really it should only be used to check set up sweepers, such as Tirtouga, Carvanha, or Scraggy. Double switching is not a good argument. If you solely use Croagunk as a means to double switch, then you might as well have soemthing else, such as U-turn Vullaby, to ACTUALLY create momentum, instead of relying on the opponent to switch out. Not to mention this just brings people into the old "well if you switch out whats stopping me from double switching" and in the end it just falls into a "who is a better predictor" scenario.

 

[Heysup]

Comparing Croagunk to Mienfoo, obviously it will seem worse because of power / u-turn. However, Mienfoo is S for that reason. Timburr is A and Croagunk should absolutely be kept in the same area as the other Fighting-types because of its ability to switch into other Fighting-types. Forcing these Fighting-types out is a big advantage because of their commonality and the fact that Croagunk is pretty difficult to switch into. Most things don't want to switch into Knock Off while things like Fletchling can't reliably take a Sludge Bomb or Gunk Shot. Bulk Up and NP Gunk both easily set up on Trubbish. People defending Croagunk by saying "Double switching" is a bad argument, I agree, but dismissing how hard Croagunk is to safely switch into is also bad.

Another horribly understated benefit of Croagunk is the fact that it doesn't lose to Carvanha, Tirtouga, or Scraggy after being Knocked Off like Mienfoo and Timburr (who can still check Carvanha with Mach Punch). It can switch in and tank any resisted hit and heal its HP back up.

I haven't seen the usage stats but I'm also willing to bet Chinchou is one of the most popular Pokemon and if I see a team with that you can bet I'd rather switch Croagunk into that than any other Fighting-type.

 

[chimp]

Forcing a pokemon out is a bad thing when people argue that Croagunk beats Fighting- and Fairy-types. You really don't get that much momentum, as any good team has an answer to Croagunk (and using bad teams to further a point does not constitute a rise in rank). Croagunk gives the "illusion" of safety, when really it should only be used to check set up sweepers, such as Tirtouga, Carvanha, or Scraggy. Double switching is not a good argument. If you solely use Croagunk as a means to double switch, then you might as well have soemthing else, such as U-turn Vullaby, to ACTUALLY create momentum, instead of relying on the opponent to switch out. Not to mention this just brings people into the old "well if you switch out whats stopping me from double switching" and in the end it just falls into a "who is a better predictor" scenario.

I don't understand. Maybe I'm missing something here but, doesn't every pokemon force switches against pokemon they beat? Send a Chinchou in on a Fire or Flying type and they are most likely going to switch out. That doesn't necessarily mean Chinchou can't beat those types.

And, why do you mean by "illusion" of safety. Having a mon who is able to beat mienfoo and timburr and chinchou and spritzee and cottonee and pawniard and (sometimes) misdreavus and 3 of the biggest sweepers in the tier is a pretty big deal. And like I said, I find it really hard to switch into it because it has so much coverage and nothing can switch in without Gunk healing back HP or getting their item knocked away.

EDIT: I'll agree that double switching was a poor argurment but I was trying to show that having a pokemon switch out on you is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Merritt]

The main issue with Croagunk's ability to handle the tier is that it doesn't have enough power or bulk. Offensively it's decently powerful, but not great considering that it has to invest in bulk to make use of its typing. Overall, statwise, it's only decent.

Of course, stats aren't the only thing that makes up a Pokemon's viability, but how it interacts with the tier. Croagunk has a lot going for it, but it's held back by two main things besides its stats, lack of reliable recovery and inability to actually do something other Pokemon in the tier can't. Other Pokemon can fulfill each role of croagunk better than it can (sometimes even more than one) but Croagunk's main differentiating point is that it can do all of the things it can at once. That's great, but not good enough for A-rank. If it could do each role just as well as the next choice, that'd make it A-rank, but as it stands, it's not good enough.

More about the recovery point, it has nothing but Drain Punch to keep it healthy and that's a problem. If it plans on continuously forcing out the other Pokemon, it's going to be continuously taking small(ish) amounts of damage, and ultimately ends up forced to use drain punch as a primary option, just so that it can continue to do its job, while it'd prefer to use knock off more often on switches. Other defensive switch-ins like Chinchou, Vullaby, or Trubbish all have recovery in rest, roost, or berry juice.

Is croagunk, on paper an A-rank mon? No, of course not, but it's not even really a B-rank mon on paper. The way the meta moves works it to survive in the higher tiers, but it doesn't work as well as any of the others in A-rank. It deserves B-rank, but it does end up straddling the line between A and B.

 

[Celestavian]

Comparing Croagunk to Mienfoo, obviously it will seem worse because of power / u-turn. However, Mienfoo is S for that reason. Timburr is A and Croagunk should absolutely be kept in the same area as the other Fighting-types because of its ability to switch into other Fighting-types. Forcing these Fighting-types out is a big advantage because of their commonality and the fact that Croagunk is pretty difficult to switch into. Most things don't want to switch into Knock Off while things like Fletchling can't reliably take a Sludge Bomb or Gunk Shot. Bulk Up and NP Gunk both easily set up on Trubbish. People defending Croagunk by saying "Double switching" is a bad argument, I agree, but dismissing how hard Croagunk is to safely switch into is also bad.

The fact that other Fighting-types are in S or A doesn't mean Croagunk should; if anything it means Croagunk should be B since it's not on the same level as they are. There is simply no reason to use Bulk Up Croagunk when Timburr exists (who by the way. also sets up in front of Trubbish), and while Nasty Plot isn't outclassed that badly, it still doesn't perform well due to Croagunk's lackluster Speed and inability to OHKO anything besides Pawniard with Vacuum Wave. This leaves the pivot set.

Mienfoo is the only other good Fighting-type that Croagunk can reliably switch into and beat. Even so, Mienfoo can just Knock Off + U-turn to chip off some HP, and while it is hard to switch into Croagunk, it can't use Knock Off and heal itself at the same time, meaning that it will either be weakened or be staring down a slightly damaged counter. Timburr can just set up in front of Croagunk. Even one boost + Knock Off from both parties is enough to put Timburr ahead:

28 Atk Croagunk Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 76 Def Timburr: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO

+1 196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 9-11 (39.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Scraggy is different in that it can be beaten only if it lacks Zen Headbutt. I am not sure how common that is any more, seeing as how Spritzee can terrorize Scraggy to no end without Iron Tail or Poison Jab, but still, can't do much against that if it has it. Riolu, Makuhita, Tyrogue, etc. are all just bad in this metagame and can be checked by plenty more things than just Croagunk.

Another horribly understated benefit of Croagunk is the fact that it doesn't lose to Carvanha, Tirtouga, or Scraggy after being Knocked Off like Mienfoo and Timburr (who can still check Carvanha with Mach Punch). It can switch in and tank any resisted hit and heal its HP back up.

I haven't seen the usage stats but I'm also willing to bet Chinchou is one of the most popular Pokemon and if I see a team with that you can bet I'd rather switch Croagunk into that than any other Fighting-type.

196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Timburr: 17-21 (70.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Timburr: 24-28 (100 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Timburr: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of these, only Tirtouga beats Evioliteless Timburr, whom then proceeds to tear apart the other two with Drain Punch and Mach Punch. Yes, Croagunk can beat them all, but "beating" stuff it all it can do; it poses almost no threat of its own because of its weakness; if it's not using a super effective move or fighting something frail, it lacks a lot of damage because of its defensive investment. Timburr can beat most of those while posing a huge threat with Bulk Up. Croagunk is a niche Pokemon, in that it covers a specific hole that nothing else can fill. This is a small hole however, so most of the time something else is better used in that slot, which is why I believe it should remain in B.

 

[boo836]

Forcing a pokemon out is a bad thing when people argue that Croagunk beats Fighting- and Fairy-types. You really don't get that much momentum, as any good team has an answer to Croagunk (and using bad teams to further a point does not constitute a rise in rank). Croagunk gives the "illusion" of safety, when really it should only be used to check set up sweepers, such as Tirtouga, Carvanha, or Scraggy. Double switching is not a good argument. If you solely use Croagunk as a means to double switch, then you might as well have soemthing else, such as U-turn Vullaby, to ACTUALLY create momentum, instead of relying on the opponent to switch out. Not to mention this just brings people into the old "well if you switch out whats stopping me from double switching" and in the end it just falls into a "who is a better predictor" scenario.

You seem to forget that if it forces something out, it's done its job. Stuff life Timburr and Mienfoo HARDLY like taking a Knock Off, and a similar rule would apply to whatever switches in. Nothing also really wants to take a STAB unresisted hit from Gunk either, because that just whittles you down further.

 

[Heysup]

My point was that Croagunk is on their level, it just does different things. For example, it's weaker and less bulky but it can counter more specific threats like Fighting-types and Spritzee.

Also your Timburr calcs prove nothing since Sludge Bomb still beats it (calcing Drain Punch against a bulk up user when you have a 90 BP Special Attack? Really?). Any variant of Croagunk (physical bulk up, mixed, or NP) all beat it.

As for the last point, Scraggy beats it, Tirtouga beats it, and it still can't switch into Carvanha since that puts it in Aqua Jet range. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove there. You then start going back to Croagun's weak damage but its coverage makes up for its lack of power. Timburr (like Mienfoo) gets walled quite easily and Croagunk simply doesn't.

I don't have to argue that Croagunk is better, or even as good as Timburr, but it's quite clear that they are comparable at the very least. Not to mention Scraggy is A and I think Scraggy is a waste of space.

EDIT: why is snover B?

 

[Tim Cockrell]

In my opinion Shellos deserves to be somewhere on this list. It has many defend able points for putting it on a team, such as due to its sticky hold ability it can't lose its eviolite. Another one of these reasons is though it doesn't have the best offensive stats it isn't setup fodder because it has access to clear smog and scald does some decent damage. Another definable point is the access to both acid armor and amnesia, putting together that point and the fact that it can't lose its eviolite makes it one hell of a wall. these are reasons why shellos needs to at least be a C

 

[shmeur]

In my opinion Shellos deserves to be somewhere on this list. It has many defend able points for putting it on a team, such as due to its sticky hold ability it can't lose its eviolite. Another one of these reasons is though it doesn't have the best offensive stats it isn't setup fodder because it has access to clear smog and scald does some decent damage. Another definable point is the access to both acid armor and amnesia, putting together that point and the fact that it can't lose its eviolite makes it one hell of a wall. these are reasons why shellos needs to at least be a C

Agreed. Stockpile + Recover + Sticky Hold Eviolite is a beast.

 

[Merritt]

I don't have to argue that Croagunk is better, or even as good as Timburr, but it's quite clear that they are comparable at the very least. Not to mention Scraggy is A and I think Scraggy is a waste of space.

EDIT: why is snover B?

They're comparable in a couple roles, but for the most part Timburr outclasses Croagunk in those roles. If Croagunk were to be A, then it's not because has a meta defining role or some unique, essential niche, but because it's able to fulfill more than one role at once. The problem that keeps it B in my opinion is that it's being thrust in a defensive role by those arguing for A without recovery. That is where the forcing switches as an argument against it comes into play- Croagunk can't continue to do its job when it's worn down, and doesn't have good enough bulk to overcome that.

As for the fact that it beats Timburr, it better be able to beat Timburr, or else I'd be arguing that it'd go down to C rank. One of the main things that's been argued in its favor is that it counters the common fighting types in the tier. If it couldn't beat one of the three it has to, then it doesn't deserve A rank in any way. However, the argument that it counters fairies is very, very weak. Croagunk obviously beats or forces out Cottonee (but would you leave something like pawniard in on a fighting type?), but Snubbull beats it with Earthquake, and Spritzee...

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 14-20 (51.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Quiet, 0 Speed Croagunk speed ties with 12 Speed Spritzee, bringing it down to a 50/50 chance. But making it even worse for croagunk is the 30% chance of a special attack drop from moonblast. If Spritzee wins the second speed tie, or Croagunk gets a special attack drop when it switches in, Spritzee will win. That's not good for Croagunk's ability to counter fairies, as now it's at 1 absolute counter, 1 kinda sorta counter (less than 50% of the time) and one kinda sorta check (Croagunk speed ties with min speed Snubbull too).

Snover is B because it can either do Blizzspam, which is still a hard attack to switch into if you lack a resist, or it can run DEFENSIVE SNOVER. It might move to C though, considering there's no more Murkrow for it to Blizzspam beat. It does surprise Fletchling with ice shard, though.