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Remoraid has a niche, and a fantastic one at that. Remoraid, in addition to having the absolute BEST set of viable moves, has a very valuable ability in Hustle, which allows those Rock Blasts and Bullet Seeds to become even more powerful. Remoraid is a fantastic scarfer that can be used as a Wallbreaker and Revenge Killer.
I know it isn't the absolute best poke, and is certainly outclassed, but it's easily one of the two best Mixed Set Users (Gunk) and utilizes scarfspout better than any other poke without question.
Remoraid has a niche, and a fantastic one at that. Remoraid, in addition to having the absolute BEST set of viable moves, has a very valuable ability in Hustle, which allows those Rock Blasts and Bullet Seeds to become even more powerful. Remoraid is a fantastic scarfer that can be used as a Wallbreaker and Revenge Killer.
I know it isn't the absolute best poke, and is certainly outclassed, but it's easily one of the two best Mixed Set Users (Gunk) and utilizes scarfspout better than any other poke without question.
Remoraid's Hustle set isn't even remotely good. It's just an unreliable lure dependant on lucky rolls. You barely have a worse chance of missing with Hustle Bullet Seed than scoring 4 or 5 hits. Remoraid doesn't have multi hit STAB, and it's pretty weak. Remoraid has even less of a use with the rise of chinchou and grass types and more often than not finds itself being dead weight in balanced metagames, since it absolutely depends on not taking hits while grabbing KOs. Being Choice-locked on a move a shitton of mons resist ust rives the nail further into the coffin. I fully support dropping Remoraid to C-, or even D+.
Aron---> mid C not really on the same level as any of the other c+ pokemon. Outclassed as a sweeper by cranidos, outclassed as a rock setter by pretty much everything above it.
Remorade-----> c- : same thing as Aron really, not entirely sure it has a niche, just really outclassed
Wow, didn't know it could run that set.
Still, the abundance of revenge killers such as fletch, pawn, etc combined with its paper-thin defenses really hampers its ability, and scarf Chou would fit onto the vast majority of teams much better. Some new nominations as well
Karrablast --> c-
No guard megahorn with scarf is surprisingly good, coupled with knock off as well. Despite fletch, it still has a solid niche as a bug scarfer.
Solosis --> c-
A staple on trick room teams, I believe it has enough of a niche to rise a rank. Insanely powerful attacks under TR are scary, and very anti meta.
Also reiterating sand shrew to c+, has a very solid niche as a bulky SR and rapid spin user with knock off and is good on sand teams.
Wow, didn't know it could run that set.
Still, the abundance of revenge killers such as fletch, pawn, etc combined with its paper-thin defenses really hampers its ability, and scarf Chou would fit onto the vast majority of teams much better. Some new nominations as well
Karrablast --> c-
No guard megahorn with scarf is surprisingly good, coupled with knock off as well. Despite fletch, it still has a solid niche as a bug scarfer.
Solosis --> c-
A staple on trick room teams, I believe it has enough of a niche to rise a rank. Insanely powerful attacks under TR are scary, and very anti meta.
Also reiterating sand shrew to c+, has a very solid niche as a bulky SR and rapid spin user with knock off and is good on sand teams.
karrablast should be C+ it has everything it needs to be good despite being fletchling weak, its only D because no ones every come around to really ranking it.
Things i wanna bitch about that's being recently discussed
Aron: This thing still has Heavy Metal + Heavy Slam. The average weight of pokes in LC is low, not counting Rock types who are all about the same weight. So this does ridiculous amounts of damage to just about anyone.
Remoraid: This one is iffy since it's has good coverage options and a meh stat spread. It wants to abuse Hustle but it's not cut out for it. I would rather run Sniper and be that kind of person just to maximize damage. Also Wailmer outdamages Remoraid's ScarfSpout set.
Karrablast: MIGHT HORN would actually be really good if Fletch wasnt around. So Scarf it is. If anything Karrablast gets all of the right moves. It has Drill Run for Steels and Rocks, Poison Jab hits Fairies and Knock Off hits Ghosts. Literally best moveset ever. I guess it can be moved up since it's actually not bad. No Guard sucks if it's up against a statusy wall or up against something with a move that decks poor Karrablast but it's not all bad. Literally using it as a revenger is the optimal thing to do.
Solosis: The slow slightly bulkier Abra. TR is prolly the only good thing on Solosis but remember you can run a bulky set. It's not that wise to utilize though since every STAB Knock Off OHKOs you :( but free TWaves on switchin amirite? No but seriously, LO OTR Solosis is a monster. It doesnt have to run Speed so it can actaully run like Modest/Quiet to hit 22 SpA. Like i said before, it's only slightly bulkier than Abra so it doesnt wanna get dinged too much now.
Sandshrew: I like me a bulkier less powerful Drilbur with Knock Off. Is this basically in Drilbur's shadow like for life?
Let's face it - Trubbish fucking sucks. Having Sticky Hold doesn't matter too much when you lose to two of the most common Knock Off users in Timburr and Pawniard. It's outclassed as a Spiker by Ferroseed and essentially is set up fodder for anything on the planet. Oh, and it's commonly trapped by Diggy and Goth.
Trubbish doesn't do its job effectively to warrant a spot so high. Imo i'd push it into C but I don't want to rock the boat too much.
I can see how Trubbish would struggle against Bulk Up Timburr, but Pawn? How are you losing that match-up when you have a move that can KO Pawn and heal you back up to make Recycle plays less stressful?
By definition, Trubbish can't be outclassed as a Spikes setter in comparison to Ferroseed because it's faster and has a different form of recovery. Also, Trubbish is not meant to be an offensive Pokemon so of course it's going to be seen as set-up bait. That applies to essentially any defensive Pokemon out there. The fact of the matter is that it's still annoying to any Pokemon that can't outright OHKO it properly.
I will credit you in that it's bait for trappers, but there's a reason it's not A rank. It's still deserving of B/B+.
I can see how Trubbish would struggle against Bulk Up Timburr, but Pawn? How are you losing that match-up when you have a move that can KO Pawn and heal you back up to make Recycle plays less stressful?
If Trubbish switches into a Pawn that used SD it has a high chance to OHKO (100% chance if rocks are up) with Sucker Punch:
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 100 Def Trubbish: 22-27 (95.6 - 117.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
And heck Trubbish can't even OHKO after SR with Drain Punch:
36 Atk Trubbish Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And yeah I was going to make a post about Trubbish and why it should drop but everything that should be said has been said by boo.
as Yagura stated, it's fodder for Sd pawn. Pawn could actually live the drain punch, set up, and then ko. It only really checks mienfoo reliably.
When I said outclassed, I wasn't talking about niche characteristics. It's just that as a setter, Ferroseed is way better as there's no reason to use Trubbish in the first place.
as Yagura stated, it's fodder for Sd pawn. Pawn could actually live the drain punch, set up, and then ko. It only really checks mienfoo reliably.
When I said outclassed, I wasn't talking about niche characteristics. It's just that as a setter, Ferroseed is way better as there's no reason to use Trubbish in the first place.
How is speed a niche characteristic? It's one of the primary reasons Trubbish is B+ in the first place. It's so simple, I'm not sure how you don't understand this. Trubbish is fast, Ferroseed is slow.
How is speed a niche characteristic? It's one of the primary reasons Trubbish is B+ in the first place. It's so simple, I'm not sure how you don't understand this. Trubbish is fast, Ferroseed is slow.
Ferro loses it's healing and it's method of nerfing Foo when Taunted and is relagated to losing both it's item and it's life.
Trubbish loses it's ability to get it's item but BUT ITS OKAY it still has BJ in the running and it resists DP/HJK so all's good.
(btw lo foo 2hkos with hjk but is anyone running taunt on lo foo just to fuck shit up? nah...)
What is Ferro even healing with? Taunt prevents both from setting. That's their primary fucking job. When that happens to Trubbish, it will fire off a hit and foo will heal back with a u-turn. The one mon it checks still fucks it over and grabs momentum.
Also can we please stop acting like checking foo and Gunk is such a valuable niche? it badly checks an S mon and that's about it. That's not worth B status alongside useful mons.
What is Ferro even healing with? Taunt prevents both from setting. That's their primary fucking job. When that happens to Trubbish, it will fire off a hit and foo will heal back with a u-turn. The one mon it checks still fucks it over and grabs momentum.
Also can we please stop acting like checking foo and Gunk is such a valuable niche? it badly checks an S mon and that's about it. That's not worth B status alongside useful mons.
Obviously Leech Seed. It's minimal but it's healing nonetheless.
I guess i missed that Taunt Foo was supposed to stop Trubbish from spiking which is silly since they speed tie and you waste a turn trying to taunt them when you outspeeding isnt assured. I'll accept that Taunt + U-turn is a thing and would certainly fuck it over. Also how is Taunt + U-turn beating Trubbish? I thought the point of this was that Foo was going to beat it, not neuter it temporarily. I mean Trubbish can just leave unless we gunna toss more mons into the mix to render my statement invalid. (inb4ing you saying hurr Gothita / Diglett so now Trubbish cant lose vs Mienfoo which is total bullshit since this is to be between Foo and Trub and if we are going to factor that kind of shit, lets factor a Foo check and some trapper checks)
My thing is, Trubbish dont give a fuck about Taunt Foo but Ferro does since it loses a lot of it's utility.
I will not accept that Trubbish is badly checking an S Rank mon since both S Rank mons it's checking has to run specific moves to get past. Dont act like SD Pawn is super common because it's not. Dont act like Taunt Foo is also common because it's not. I looked through the stats to see how much those moves are even used.
0s -
Swords Dance 28.368%
Taunt 11.544%
1500s -
Swords Dance 26.600%
Taunt 13.169%
1630s -
Swords Dance 22.397%
Taunt 16.233%
1760s -
Swords Dance 20.500%
Taunt 18.902%
My point being, these moves arent utilized enough for it to warrant Trubbish being a bad check to Pawn / Foo. If they were then i would be convinced but srsly nah man.
(No one said anything about Trubbish checking Gunk, I said that EQ Gunk is an issue for it. Not that Trub checks it. And yes EQ is a rare move on Gunk so i prolly shouldnt have said that. BUT it's a viable choice for handling Poisons who try to sap up Drain Punches.)
I'm about to make a suggestion, and it may seem rather drastic but I believe its time for this mon to drop Fletchling: S - A+
I feel like fletchling just isn't as good as it was earlier in its domination of the meta, sure the meta hasn't really changed, but its just been so easy to stop fletchling. Diglett lacks the ability to trap most of its counters, only really stopping checks like omanyte, pawniard (who is sorta stopped by overheat fletch anyway), and counters in chinchou and mag. Its number of answers are numerous, chinchou, mag, pawniard, omanyte, archen, tirtouga, porygon, and it really lacks power early game, unable to OHKO any common fighter without knock off support. + If you want an easy way to mess with fighters and foongus, gothita is there to ensure the trap. While its still amazing, with u-turn acro roost overheat and SD, it is rather predicable and unable to do much to its answers aside from dumb choices in moves and items.
Another drop is Foongus: A - A-
I don't understand why foongus is up at A with the likes of spritzee and porygon. Its a shaky fighter check at best, doesn't really stop chinchou or ice beam/psychic staryu, sure it has regen, but it takes a good amount of damage from even neutral hits once its eviolite is taken down, and its goth bait (Diglett to if its weak enough). Ferro walls it hard if it doesn't have hidden power fire, and then pawniard can set up on it if it isn't fighting and set has been slept. Checking carvanha, cottonee, mienfoo, drilbur, and several other mons pretty well merit it not dropping any lower though.
I don't understand why foongus is up at A with the likes of spritzee and porygon. Its a shaky fighter check at best, doesn't really stop chinchou or ice beam/psychic staryu, sure it has regen, but it takes a good amount of damage from even neutral hits once its eviolite is taken down, and its goth bait (Diglett to if its weak enough). Ferro walls it hard if it doesn't have hidden power fire, and then pawniard can set up on it if it isn't fighting and set has been slept. Checking carvanha, cottonee, mienfoo, drilbur, and several other mons pretty well merit it not dropping any lower though.
This gotta be a joke, Foongus is totally A material if not A+, the combination of Spore+Regenerator allows it to put most things in LC to sleep and switch out into a counter while getting 1/3 of its HP recovered making its clearly one of the best pivots in the meta, its typing also allows it to have a resistance to plenty of stuff like the common Fighting-types (idk why you think it's a shaky counter when it resists its STABs, yes Knock Off hurts it but it's still bulky even without the Eviolite, and can put them all to sleep), it can counter and check most of the huge threats in the meta, its ability to fit easily in any team style. And it can mess with most teams if played well thanks to its ability to switch from disliked situations and heal with Regen. If that's not enough to be A rank then idk what is.
I never found "being bait to trappers" an enough reason to make something weaker, trapping has always been a problem especially for new players. But, advanced players that have a decent knowledge on the meta can easily predict a switch to a trapper but let's not make this a trapping discussion shall we? Also, keep in mind Gothita can't OHKO Foongus even with rocks up and it can easily Spore it and easily 2HKO it with Sludge Bomb.
Also, don't say that Ferroseed walls it when HP Fire is pretty common and can't be ignored and having it doesn't mean Pawniard makes you a set up bait when you can cripple it with Spore and switch into a counter.
Obviously Leech Seed. It's minimal but it's healing nonetheless.
I guess i missed that Taunt Foo was supposed to stop Trubbish from spiking which is silly since they speed tie and you waste a turn trying to taunt them when you outspeeding isnt assured. I'll accept that Taunt + U-turn is a thing and would certainly fuck it over. Also how is Taunt + U-turn beating Trubbish? I thought the point of this was that Foo was going to beat it, not neuter it temporarily. I mean Trubbish can just leave unless we gunna toss more mons into the mix to render my statement invalid. (inb4ing you saying hurr Gothita / Diglett so now Trubbish cant lose vs Mienfoo which is total bullshit since this is to be between Foo and Trub and if we are going to factor that kind of shit, lets factor a Foo check and some trapper checks)
My thing is, Trubbish dont give a fuck about Taunt Foo but Ferro does since it loses a lot of it's utility.
I will not accept that Trubbish is badly checking an S Rank mon since both S Rank mons it's checking has to run specific moves to get past. Dont act like SD Pawn is super common because it's not. Dont act like Taunt Foo is also common because it's not. I looked through the stats to see how much those moves are even used.
0s -
Swords Dance 28.368%
Taunt 11.544%
1500s -
Swords Dance 26.600%
Taunt 13.169%
1630s -
Swords Dance 22.397%
Taunt 16.233%
1760s -
Swords Dance 20.500%
Taunt 18.902%
My point being, these moves arent utilized enough for it to warrant Trubbish being a bad check to Pawn / Foo. If they were then i would be convinced but srsly nah man.
(No one said anything about Trubbish checking Gunk, I said that EQ Gunk is an issue for it. Not that Trub checks it. And yes EQ is a rare move on Gunk so i prolly shouldnt have said that. BUT it's a viable choice for handling Poisons who try to sap up Drain Punches.)
Taunt stops it from setting more than one layer, while U-Turning grabs momentum and allows you to take advantage of the switch. I don't think you understand that it puts you in a really bad situation lol. And please, pawn doesn't run SD to get around Trubbish so much as be the current most threatening win condition in the fucking game.
Taunt stops it from setting more than one layer, while U-Turning grabs momentum and allows you to take advantage of the switch. I don't think you understand that it puts you in a really bad situation lol. And please, pawn doesn't run SD to get around Trubbish so much as be the current most threatening win condition in the fucking game.
i guess im not understanding... so let me go over EVERYTHING to make sense of what you're trying to convey.
trubbish should drop because it's bad at checking the two s rank mons it's supposed to check and it's a bad spiker right?
okay what s ranks are we talking? mienfoo and pawniard. okay why is it bad at checking them? because there are certain moves that they both can utilise to beat trubbish along with other things in the meta. it's not something that's just for it, it's just covered in the plan. why i think that's bogus is that the usage on these two moves that are being talked about are low.
mienfoo has literally nothing in his arsenal save hjk to really dent trubbish but bj activates so now you're still stuck with 100% trubbish and gunk shot hits you for over 60%. That's bad.
im going to give up on the sd pawn argument as yeah +2 stabs are all 75% ohkos and knock off is a definite ohko but i guess recycle shenanigans is really real but im not going to make that pointless argument. and please, im not implying that pawn runs sd to beat trubbish im just saying that if your best argument for pawn not losing to trubbish is an uncommon move then good show.
onto why trubbish is a bad spiker. the argument that taunt ruins it is silly. because EVERY SPIKER EVER IS RUINED BY TAUNT and i wont accept that as a valid argument. now saying ferroseed outclasses it as a spiker is... well, i have a few issues with that as we are talking about mienfoo. so ferroseed hates to deal with that. however trubbish doesnt care about that. now yeah ferroseed is bulkier but trubbish has much more reliable recovery.
Taunt stops it from setting more than one layer, while U-Turning grabs momentum and allows you to take advantage of the switch. I don't think you understand that it puts you in a really bad situation lol. And please, pawn doesn't run SD to get around Trubbish so much as be the current most threatening win condition in the fucking game.
I don't want to get involved in the seven different arguments going on between you and Jac, but if you truly believe that Trubbish's capability to check Pawniard and counter Mienfoo (not the based CM HP Psychic ofc) isn't worthy of B+ and is more C+ material, then you also need to address the other sticky hold user that is already below Trubbish, sitting at B-: Shellos.
Yes, Shellos possesses reliable recovery in Recover, allowing it to run an Eviolite instead of Berry Juice, but Trubbish's Poison-type, solid 17 Speed and Berry Juice + Recycle shenanigans make it a bigger threat. Unless the foe can fire off a strong EQ, Trubbish is going to get its Berry Juice activated, restoring all of its health as opposed to just 50%. Also, although it's not as prevalent, Trubbish can run Curse, which is practically a pseudo-Eviolite and it turns Trubbish into a much better Mienfoo counter and, after two Curses, it becomes a Pawniard counter. If Trubbish is dropping to B- or lower, we also have to reconsider Shellos's placement in the rankings, as it's still an inferior Sticky Hold Pokemon.
Personally, I think Trubbish probably should drop because it does lose to quite a few notable Pokemon, but only to B, maybe B- and definitely not lower than Shellos.
Don't forget foongus' access to strange moves such as Spore, Stun Spore or Clear Smog, and great recovery with Giga Drain or an hypothetical Synthesis. As Yagura said, it is totally A material, and it isn't an A+ poke because viability rankings don't use to like defensive pokes, but it is definitely one of the best walls in the tier.
Here are some other possible points of discussion that have been brought up -
Cottonee: A -> A-
yeah, i'd agree with this. no recovery, and too predictable makes it easy to wear down and stuff. most people seem to agree on this so i'm dropping
Dwebble: B+ ->B
nahhh, it's still good for hazards, and it's shell smash set is pretty underrated beats all scarfers and can use surprise moves like knock off and aerial ace
Bellsprout: B- -> B
by all means, bellsprout is god with sun support
Riolu: B- -> B
no opinion
Chespin: C -> C+/B-
no opinion
I think trubbish should drop to B, it really isn't that good, and as soon as ORAS comes around mold breaker knock off pancham makes it an even worse fighter counter
