Resource LC Viability Rankings

[tazz]

Hit "reply" towards the bottom of the post you want to quote.

First, let's look at what Porygon can do:

• Through its sheer bulk, it can reliably check shell smashers, Abra, fletchling, Chinchou, Gastly, Carvanha, staryu, and more stuff. keep in mind that even with the offensive set, barring Omanyte and shellder, it can still handle all of them, even if it can't do it as often in a match.
• Its moveset can easily be modified to fit its team. if you need a Archen/fletchling/pumpkaboo/etc check, you can run ice beam. if you're already somewhat weak to fighting-types, you can easily run psychic and and deal at worst around 50% to all fighting-types bar scraggy. you can also run HP Fire or Fight to handle steel-types, thunderbolt to reliably beat shell smashers, etc. not to mention, a download set can really hurt teams with simply Tri Attack even if you don't invest in SpA.
• If it carries Trace, it can block Volt Switch from Chinchou, steal regen from opposing mons for a quick recovery, take flame body from pony/larv and potentially burn a fighting-type/Pawniard switch-in, copy sprout's chlorophyll and threaten it (works better if you run mambo's 14 speed set), check snubbull by copying its intimidate, etc

So overall, Porygon checks a lot of stuff for its team through its bulk and Trace, or it can sacrifice some of its bulk to be a potent offensive threat and still check a lot of what it needs to.

Even though you seem to want me to compare Porygon to Archen, I'm not going to, because they offer generally different roles (Archen checks flying-types/birdspam for offense and provides Defog OR Stealth Rock). Instead, I'll compare it to Timburr, which arguably is closest to Porygon as far as its role goes.

• Timburr can reliably check Shell Smashers, Pawniard, Ferroseed, Carvanha, Munchlax, Zigzagoon, etc. It also has Mach Punch to help against offense, but there's still a lot of offensive threats it can't always switch in on, so it will probably have to come in after a kill to RK with Mach Punch. In general, Porygon can switch in about just as much as Timurr can, with reliable recovery and better bulk.
• Offensively, Timburr is able to boost up and sweep and threaten with Knock Off. Porygon cannot set up, but its offensive set has much more immediate power, and can threaten a lot with its coverage, this time with similar bulk. This makes the two pretty evenly matched IMO.

So essentially, Porygon offers enough support to its team that it provides just as much as Timburr, an upper A+ mon. That coupled with the offensive presence it can posses easily makes Porygon A+.

By trying to check the things you mentioned all at once, porygon is easily weakened. Fletchling wears it down easily with u-turn, gastly can poison it with sludge bomb, abra can knock it off, it only checks Chinchou if it's trace, and carv is more of a cleaner, and when it starts cleaning pory should be weakened (hint: not hard). And please don't say it can recover the damage back, because it often does not get the opportunity. The only big abuse of trace is tracing volt absorb tbh, all the others are very situational (I hope you're not switching into mienfoo to nab regen lol, you're pretty sprout weak if you're running trace 14 Spe porygon, etc). If it's running one set it's not running another, meaning it's losing out on checking something.
Timburr is so much better than porygon lol. If porygon is A+, which it isn't, it's definitely on the lower with archen and mag not on the high side with timburr lol. Timburr can switchin to so many things and serve as a wincon at the same time, it's a lot better at checking omanyte and tirt because of Mach punch (and a bunch of other stuff). The reason I wanted you to explain how it was better than archen is because they're close in viability, if you're trying to explain how it's as good as timburr good luck lol.

 

[Kavatika]

By trying to check the things you mentioned all at once, porygon is easily weakened. Fletchling wears it down easily with u-turn, gastly can poison it with sludge bomb, abra can knock it off, it only checks Chinchou if it's trace, and carv is more of a cleaner, and when it starts cleaning pory should be weakened (hint: not hard). And please don't say it can recover the damage back, because it often does not get the opportunity.

Of course Porygon is not going to to check all that it checks at once. Just like how Timburr isn't going to check all of Shell Smashers, Pawniard, Ferroseed, Carvanha, Munchlax, and Zigzagoon at once. Frankly, if you need Porygon/Timburr/whatever in your team because you need it to check all or even 3-4+ of what it does check, then your team likely has some serious structural issues, and it should be rebuilt. If a good battler sees around 3 mons on the opposing team that can be checked by one of his/her mons, he/she would not rely on that Pokemon alone to check those 3 mons. They will assign that mon to whatever it handles best, and will likely (at least hopefully) have another way of handling the other ones. Trying to force one mon to switch in on 2-3 mons through the course of a battle will put too much pressure on that mon, and it will generally fall. That goes for pretty much any Pokemon, and is the basis for birdspam or double water teams.

The only big abuse of trace is tracing volt absorb tbh, all the others are very situational (I hope you're not switching into mienfoo to nab regen lol, you're pretty sprout weak if you're running trace 14 Spe porygon, etc).

Of course I'm not going to switch Mienfoo in on Porygon; there are other Regenerator users. The point of saying what Trace can do was to show how much utility it can offer, regardless of situationality.

14 speed Trace Porygon copies Chlorophyll, outspeeds Bellsprout, and threatens to KO. Sure it can't switch in, but the set is meant for offense, and oftentimes, all offense needs is to force something out. Just check Mambo's recent post in the creative/underrated sets thread.

If it's running one set it's not running another, meaning it's losing out on checking something.

There isn't a lot Porygon would actually be unable to check if it ran the offensive set over the defensive set, it just can't switch in as much. That's just how if Archen is running an offensive set (read: max atk/max spe) its not going to be checking Fletchling or birds in general as well as the defensive/support set (read: bulk over atk) would, and how it can't threaten Fighting-types as well if it's not running an Offensive set. Just how if Magnemite is running a Scarf set it can only stop a sweeper once/twice compared to how many times BJ Mag potentially can, or how the scarf set can threaten fast stuff and the BJ one can't.

Timburr is so much better than porygon lol. If porygon is A+, which it isn't, it's definitely on the lower with archen and mag not on the high side with timburr lol.

Porygon doesn't need to be better than any A+ mons to be A+, it just has to be on a similar level. Unlike a lot of the mons in A+, it can check a ton of things through sheer bulk, and have good recovery.

Timburr can switchin to so many things and serve as a wincon at the same time, it's a lot better at checking omanyte and tirt because of Mach punch (and a bunch of other stuff).

Yeah Timburr can sweep and use Mach punch, but Porygon has much better recovery and a much more moldable moveset.

The reason I wanted you to explain how it was better than archen is because they're close in viability

Again, Porygon does not need to be better than Archen, or any given A+ mon, to be A+, it just has to be at a similar level. Given that, saying that Porygon is close in viability to Archen, an A+ mon (don't you dare say Archen isn't worthy of A+), just means that Porygon should be A+.

if you're trying to explain how it's as good as timburr good luck lol.

I can and I did. I can do it again if you want me too.

 

[Tymano]

On the other other hand can I suggest Vulpix for A+ because in the free sun it gets, Fire blast hits like a truck and it can beat its weaknesses with Energy ball, as well as being able to use will-o-wisp or hypnosis.

Quick list of Pros/cons

+Free sun+ Fire blast hits like a truck
+It gets Energy Ball to deal with Rock, Ground, and steel types
+It hits 17 speed, which makes it faster than Pawn and speed ties with foo, bur and chen.
+It gets WoW, which helps it beat physical mons.
+A lot of mons like bellsprout love sun support
-Its weak to rocks
-drought only lasts 5 turns (8 with HR)

Resuggesting Vulpix for A+ but too lazy to type it all down again so quoting my previous post.

 

[tazz]

Of course Porygon is not going to to check all that it checks at once. Just like how Timburr isn't going to check all of Shell Smashers, Pawniard, Ferroseed, Carvanha, Munchlax, and Zigzagoon at once. Frankly, if you need Porygon/Timburr/whatever in your team because you need it to check all or even 3-4+ of what it does check, then your team likely has some serious structural issues, and it should be rebuilt. If a good battler sees around 3 mons on the opposing team that can be checked by one of his/her mons, he/she would not rely on that Pokemon alone to check those 3 mons. They will assign that mon to whatever it handles best, and will likely (at least hopefully) have another way of handling the other ones. Trying to force one mon to switch in on 2-3 mons through the course of a battle will put too much pressure on that mon, and it will generally fall. That goes for pretty much any Pokemon, and is the basis for birdspam or double water teams.



Of course I'm not going to switch Mienfoo in on Porygon; there are other Regenerator users. The point of saying what Trace can do was to show how much utility it can offer, regardless of situationality.

14 speed Trace Porygon copies Chlorophyll, outspeeds Bellsprout, and threatens to KO. Sure it can't switch in, but the set is meant for offense, and oftentimes, all offense needs is to force something out. Just check Mambo's recent post in the creative/underrated sets thread.


There isn't a lot Porygon would actually be unable to check if it ran the offensive set over the defensive set, it just can't switch in as much. That's just how if Archen is running an offensive set (read: max atk/max spe) its not going to be checking Fletchling or birds in general as well as the defensive/support set (read: bulk over atk) would, and how it can't threaten Fighting-types as well if it's not running an Offensive set. Just how if Magnemite is running a Scarf set it can only stop a sweeper once/twice compared to how many times BJ Mag potentially can, or how the scarf set can threaten fast stuff and the BJ one can't.



Porygon doesn't need to be better than any A+ mons to be A+, it just has to be on a similar level. Unlike a lot of the mons in A+, it can check a ton of things through sheer bulk, and have good recovery.



Yeah Timburr can sweep and use Mach punch, but Porygon has much better recovery and a much more moldable moveset.



Again, Porygon does not need to be better than Archen, or any given A+ mon, to be A+, it just has to be at a similar level. Given that, saying that Porygon is close in viability to Archen, an A+ mon (don't you dare say Archen isn't worthy of A+), just means that Porygon should be A+.


I can and I did. I can do it again if you want me too.

I didn't say it had to be better than any of the A+ mons to be A+, I said that it's not as good as the A+ mons and should be A+ with them. I'll go one by one

Timburr, Fletchling, and Chinchou: These are upper A+. I'm not going to waste my time explaining how each are better than porygon because it's pretty obvious to users who have used these and porygon.
Mag: it's being moved down to A currently, about the same level as porygon, i'll elaborate later.
Archen: Archen is one of, if not the best fletchling check in the metagame, one of the greatest wallbreakers, one of the greatest defoggers, one of the best SR users, and one of the best fighting checks all at the same time. It can run many different sets, like Itemless, Rock polish, Eviolite, and standard BJ, all of which offer signifigant utility to whatever team they are on. It has the option to roost of damage with eviolite, and can still be very offensively potent, and don't you dare say that porygon can do all these jobs because it can't.
Ponyta: It almost seems like any team that doesn't run dig/chinch is pony weak lol, with it's blazing speed, great ability, and ability to check fighting types bar timburr and pawn. It can spread burns like wildfire and do tons of damage with flare blitz, and can even beat its own counter, chinchou, with a sunny day set.
Abra: probably the premier special attacker of the tier, can do tons of damage with LO, and even has the option to run knock off to cripple its switchins (seriously guys, use knock off abra, it's really good). it can also check basically every wincon with a sash set.

Now, A, and how they are just as good as porygon

Drilbur: Unless pumpkaboo is on the opposing team drilbur is very reliable at spinning, and has fantastic offensive presence. overall a great mon. Probably low A (pory is high A) but they're pretty close
Ferroseed: best defensive/balance spike stacker in the metagame, offers a plethora of resistances to any game, can paralyze setup sweepers wanting to set up on it, can stay healthy with seed.
Spritz: CM set is really potent and just as a general wish passer it's really, really good.
Foongus: one pokemon goes to sleep, really bulky and really annoying
croagunk: can check fighters and mienfoo at the same time, does tons of damage with STAB sludge bomb, not much wants t oswitch into it.
Pancham: even though it's honestly A-, Pancham is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, having coverage moves for basically everything, if not everything.
Vulpix: stupidly powerful under sun, sun is really potent.
Gastly: able to throw out insanely powerful sludge bombs and shadow balls that nothing except munchlax and stunky want to take.

Porygon tbh fits much more among A threats than A+ threats
Please don't say porygon is as viable as timburr it only hurts your argument

 

[Kavatika]

I didn't say it had to be better than any of the A+ mons to be A+, I said that it's not as good as the A+ mons and should be A+ with them. I'll go one by one

Why are we arguing?
Either way, I'll respond in bold.

Timburr, Fltechling, and Chinchou: These are upper A+. I'm not going to waste my time explaining how each are better than porygon because it's pretty obvious to users who have used these and porygon.
Mag: it's being moved down to A currently, about the same level as porygon, i'll elaborate later. It was not moved down to A. There was little discussion on it, the motion is pending, and it is not leaning either way.
Archen: Archen is one of, if not the best fletchling check in the metagame, one of the greatest wallbreakers, one of the greatest defoggers, one of the best SR users, and one of the best fighting checks all at the same time. It can run many different sets, like Itemless, Rock polish, Eviolite, and standard BJ, all of which offer signifigant utility to whatever team they are on. It has the option to roost of damage with eviolite, and can still be very offensively potent, and don't you dare say that porygon can do all these jobs because it can't. Of course Porygon can't do all of those jobs. Porygon does not have the exact same Movepool/stats/typing/etc as Archen. What Archen cannot do, is hold all those roles in a single moveset. It can be an amazing wallbreaker and Fighting-type check if it runs an offensive set, but if it runs an offensive set, it can only switch into Fletchling so many times (I think the number is 4 times with SR up before Defeatist activates). An offensive set also wants to run Acro/EQ/SE/U-turn/Defog/SR. To come closest to what you say it can do, it obviously needs Acro/Defog/SR, forcing Archen to pick one of EQ/SE/U-turn. In order to be a top notch Defog user, it needs EQ to handle Pawniard, as any other move will let Pawniard wall you. If it does not run SE however, it loses a lot of wallbreaking capabilities, and it will find itself unable to maintain offensive pressure. Not running SE also limits Archen's capabilities as a Fletchling check, even if Acrobatics deals a lot of damage. If Archen forgoes U-turn, it will find itself losing momentum every time it cannot handle something, This is why when people run Archen, they pick between SR and Defog.
On the other hand, if Archen truly wants to be an amazing Fletchling check that can switch in more than enough times, the best set is an Eviolite set with Roost. As you should be able to infer, this means it cannot run Acrobatics, meaning it cannot check Fighting-types at all. I'm not going to comment on Archen much more than this, as you probably get the gist of what I'm trying to tell you. I will say this though: Porygon does not have this much trouble when its moveset is created, because it's bulk is the real reason why it can check so much. Having a super effective coverage move helps, believe me, but outside of Steel-types (which it isn't meant to check) there isn't much it will actually be unable to check if it chooses forgo the ideal move for beating it.
Ponyta: It almost seems like any team that doesn't run dig/chinch is pony weak lol, with it's blazing speed, great ability, and ability to check fighting types bar timburr and pawn. It can spread burns like wildfire and do tons of damage with flare blitz, and can even beat its own counter, chinchou, with a sunny day set. So how is Porygon not on the same level as Ponyta? All you did is say why Ponyta is good.
Abra: probably the premier special attacker of the tier, can do tons of damage with LO, and even has the option to run knock off to cripple its switchins (seriously guys, use knock off abra, it's really good). it can also check basically every wincon with a sash set. That is also why Abra is good. Why is Porygon not on Abra's level though? They both check a lot of stuff, except Porygon does it through sheer bulk and Abra does it by essentially requiring two hits to be killed, is it really that different?

Now, A, and how they are just as good as porygon

Drilbur: Unless pumpkaboo is on the opposing team drilbur is very reliable at spinning, and has fantastic offensive presence. overall a great mon. Probably low A (pory is high A) but they're pretty close
Ferroseed: best defensive/balance spike stacker in the metagame, offers a plethora of resistances to any game, can paralyze setup sweepers wanting to set up on it, can stay healthy with seed.
Spritz: CM set is really potent and just as a general wish passer it's really, really good.
Foongus: one pokemon goes to sleep, really bulky and really annoying
croagunk: can check fighters and mienfoo at the same time, does tons of damage with STAB sludge bomb, not much wants t oswitch into it.
Pancham: even though it's honestly A-, Pancham is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, having coverage moves for basically everything, if not everything.
Vulpix: stupidly powerful under sun, sun is really potent.
Gastly: able to throw out insanely powerful sludge bombs and shadow balls that nothing except munchlax and stunky want to take.

Porygon tbh fits much more among A threats than A+ threats
Please don't say porygon is as viable as timburr it only hurts your argument

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of those, as all you did is say why they are good. You did not compare them to Porygon.

I'm also not going to respond to anymore of your posts on this matter, as continuous arguing over a single Pokemon is not healthy for this thread, especially when it is only between two people and the decision has already been made, and it is best to prevent this before it happens. Porygon should remain in A+.

 

[tazz]

Yeah lol I'm done hopefully people will realize it's not A+ lol.

Onto a more pressing matter: why in the world is lickitung B? Nominating it for C+, I was looking at it the other day as it was pretty foreign to me as I had never seen it in a serious match. I tested with it a bit and quickly saw why it is never seen. It struggles to do damage. Sure it can knock off, but wish and protect take up the other two slots leaving a slot to run a million different things to help it deal with it's many, many counters (almost every mon in S, A, and B). The problem is, if it's running one move, it's not running another. Here's a brief list:

If it doesn't have fire blast ferro and pawn switch in and knock of stuff
If it doesn't have dragon tail it's complete and total setup bait
If it doesn't run power whip omanyte, shellder and tirt set up
If it doesn't run ZHB all fighters can come in and do whatever they want.

Even though it can it a lot of its switchins, it will always end up being weak to most no matter what it runs. It offers very little synergy, and it often ends up just being a sponge that soaks up hits. Unlike spritz, though, it can't deal them back.

Licki is a great example of a mon that looks great on paper, but is bad in practice. While it is true that usage doesn't indicate viability, there's a reason nobody uses it lol.

 

[OP]

I think it was talked about a little bit previously, but never really went anywhere. Drifloon should be raised.

Drifloon's versatility is absolutely outstanding. It can go special, mixed or physical and be a great wincon with all of them. Offensively, it outspeeds everything once you can activate your item. Special sets fair well against defensively oriented teams because of Calm Mind and physical sets are able to outspeed and heavily damage many Pokemon on more offensive teams. Mixed sets are usually just to get around Pawniard and would go along with physical sets. I think Drifloon is great offensively, but more importantly it's an awesome support mon. Its movepool is phenomenal: It learns Knock Off, Defog, WoW, Memento, Trick, Destiny Bond, Tailwind, TWave, Disable, Sucker Punch and even has reliable recovery with Berry Juice + Recycle. There are so many underrated or unexplored options with Drifloon. It's one of my favorite Defog users because it's fast enough, while not being grounded, to Defog against Sticky Web teams very easily. It has the added benefit of being able to spinblock as well. Drifloon does an incredible job of luring out checks or counters on top of all this. If you pair it with anything that shares similar checks, Drifloon can pretty easily cripple them with WoW, Trick, TWave, or Destiny Bond.

Drifloon is a really cool and underrated balloon!

 

[infamy]

i was about to post to raise floon myself lol. anyway, floon is incredibly versatile and it can perform offensive and supportive duties with the same set. its got like three different sets and literally all of those have two flex slots here you can use whatever your team needs especially since it has such a wide movepool. for example it can run the cm sball and then run wisp, bp, hp fight, endure, memento, etc in the last two slots. great, versatile gluemon. floon to b+ for sure.
also wtf is chespin doing in c+? its a great defensive support mon with way more offensive presence than ferro. its a good partner to spritz bc it can lure and beat pawn. also it s a great gastly counter. b at least imo.

 

[Celestavian]

I've never seen the value in Drifloon, since it's pretty weak on both sides of the attacking spectrum and is extremely fragile with its low defensive stats and lack of Eviolite. As an offensive Pokemon, this thing strikes me as Fletchling Lite. It gets one chance after losing its Berry Juice to outspeed everything, and if it gets forced out, it then becomes a worse Fletchling. It also starts off like that too, since Unburden doesn't trigger off of itemless sets. It's got cool immunities in Normal, Fighting, and Ground, but that's all it really has to switch in on. Even then, good luck switching into Drilbur or any Fighting-type, since they all have a coverage move that hits Drifloon super-effectively. The Calm Mind set is worthless against offense, or against any team that has a Pokemon faster than it before Unburden triggers. As a supporter, you might as well be running Gastly, who has the same immunities as Drifloon, while also possessing Trick, Destiny Bond, Will-o-Wisp, Disable, Sucker Punch, actual offensive ability, and most importantly, an extra Speed point off the bat. The idea of Drifloon running a successful BJ + Recycle set is just laughable. It has none of the qualities other users of the strategy have, such as Sturdy, Sticky Hold, and defenses. Defog is neat, but you absolutely must force a switch to use it safely, unlike other Defoggers, and as for spinblocking, good luck dealing with Drilbur, Staryu, Shellder, or Anorith without dying. Drifloon is versatile, but it's biggest problem in my eyes is that it needs to force out your opponent to do absolutely anything, and without Flight Gem, it has a gimped Acrobatics until you get rid of its Berry Juice unlike its biggest competitor Fletchling. B- is fine for it.

Chespin I've historically been against rising because I feel that it's a lot like a worse Pumpkaboo that isn't weak to Knock Off's damage. Its claim to fame is shutting down Gastly and Bellsprout, but much like Stunky, walling a very select group of Pokemon, no matter how strong, is simply not a noteworthy trait. Outside of its ability, it's used as a great Drilbur counter, but there's one problem: Pumpkaboo does that infinitely better because it blocks the Rapid Spin. Taking 15% from Earthquake and shrugging off Rock Slides with Synthesis is all well and good, but when Drilbur can just get rid of hazards and do its job while just waving to Chespin as it's switched out for something like Ponyta or Skrelp, it's just not worth using over Pumpkaboo unless you are incredibly terrified of Knock Off or Gastly. And don't get me started on the Bulk Up set. Poor Chespin tries so hard to be Timburr but just falls flat in every aspect except for Defense where it is only slightly better than Timburr. Outside of that, it has no immediate power, no priority, no recovery through attacking, no Guts, more weaknesses to take advantage of, and good-but-not-great Grass/Rock coverage. Saying that it has "way" more offensive presence than Ferroseed is surprising to me since Ferroseed only has one less point in Attack than Chespin does. To make up for that, it has Bullet Seed to take advantage of the boosted power of multi-hit moves in LC and Knock Off. If you're talking about the Bulk Up set, though, then I guess I can see what you mean. In any case, Chespin is fine where it is also.


EDIT: Apparently Chespin is C+ unlike the B- that I thought it was. I'd support Chespin for B-, since it's definitely better than Aron or Binacle or Koffing, but B is a little too high IMO.

 

[Shrug]

it's just not worth using over Pumpkaboo unless you are incredibly terrified of Knock Off or Gastly.

This is where I have one niche to point out that Pump doesn't fufill: Spikes. Spikes are very very good on LC balance - Beating something like Oma, Fletch, or Pawn gets even harder with 2 layers on the field. I mostly agree with you about Chespin being inferior to Pump in generak, but Spikes (even if it can block the spin) is valuable enough for a rank increase.

 

[Anthiese]

This is where I have one niche to point out that Pump doesn't fufill: Spikes. Spikes are very very good on LC balance - Beating something like Oma, Fletch, or Pawn gets even harder with 2 layers on the field. I mostly agree with you about Chespin being inferior to Pump in generak, but Spikes (even if it can block the spin) is valuable enough for a rank increase.

nitpick: fletch doesnt care about spikes

 

[apt-get]

nitpick: fletch doesnt care about spikes

He meant on the defendant's side

 

[infamy]

He meant having a Fletch on Chespin's team because it really appreciates its counters worn down by that residual damage, I think.

ninja'd oh well

 

[Anthiese]

Apoligies. It didnt seem like it was saying it like that when i read it.

 

[OP]

I've never seen the value in Drifloon, since it's pretty weak on both sides of the attacking spectrum and is extremely fragile with its low defensive stats and lack of Eviolite. As an offensive Pokemon, this thing strikes me as Fletchling Lite. It gets one chance after losing its Berry Juice to outspeed everything, and if it gets forced out, it then becomes a worse Fletchling. It also starts off like that too, since Unburden doesn't trigger off of itemless sets. It's got cool immunities in Normal, Fighting, and Ground, but that's all it really has to switch in on. Even then, good luck switching into Drilbur or any Fighting-type, since they all have a coverage move that hits Drifloon super-effectively. The Calm Mind set is worthless against offense, or against any team that has a Pokemon faster than it before Unburden triggers. As a supporter, you might as well be running Gastly, who has the same immunities as Drifloon, while also possessing Trick, Destiny Bond, Will-o-Wisp, Disable, Sucker Punch, actual offensive ability, and most importantly, an extra Speed point off the bat. The idea of Drifloon running a successful BJ + Recycle set is just laughable. It has none of the qualities other users of the strategy have, such as Sturdy, Sticky Hold, and defenses. Defog is neat, but you absolutely must force a switch to use it safely, unlike other Defoggers, and as for spinblocking, good luck dealing with Drilbur, Staryu, Shellder, or Anorith without dying. Drifloon is versatile, but it's biggest problem in my eyes is that it needs to force out your opponent to do absolutely anything, and without Flight Gem, it has a gimped Acrobatics until you get rid of its Berry Juice unlike its biggest competitor Fletchling. B- is fine for it.

I think you're underestimating Drifloon's bulk. It's not unheard of to run 27/11/11 bulk to avoid OHKOs from Rock Slide and Ice Beam from Drilbur and Staryu respectively. I understand that it can't do too much to Staryu after that, but it does prevent the hazard removal and can weaken Staryu to the point where smart plays and good teambuilding could allow you to prevent it from ever spinning. Rapid Spinning Shellder and Anorith simply aren't common or even very good currently. Any team with a faster Pokemon does not make Drifloon useless. If Drifloon can sub down to activate Berry Juice, come in on SR enough times, or even use Endure, it'll both outspeed and avoid OHKOs from all of them other than wallbreakers like Gastly and Doduo and the two 20 speed electrics. Once Unburden has activated, Drifloon can OHKO anything that it needs to and that was previously faster or 2HKO that things that don't immediately threaten it. As a support mon, Gastly is far worse than Drifloon. It actually has terrible bulk, unlike Drifloon. All relevant spinners beat Gastly, even with the Gastly user predicting perfectly. Gastly can't run WoW and suddenly expect to live things like Pawniard's Knock Off. Gastly doesn't have Memento or Defog, two amazing support moves and huge reasons to use Drifloon. Drifloon's offensively abilities are more than enough to go along with its supportive options and this is mostly because of Knock Off. If you're worried about being walled by something like Porygon, Drifloon can knock it off and sub down to get a fully powered Acrobatics and then be able to 2HKO. Drifloon and Fletchling are hardly comparable. The only thing they both do is have a fast Acrobatics coming off the same base attack. Drifloon provides so much more team support, isn't really set up bait to anything, and has ways to beat all of its checks. I don't really get your points when you say Drifloon has to force out a Pokemon to Defog or be effective at all. It can afford to take the turn to Defog or do whatever and still beat many of the things it checks, if they stay in. You didn't explain why this would be the case other than it has poor bulk, which isn't the case: Drifloon's natural bulk is about the same as Mienfoo because of its huge HP.

Basically I think you mostly missed the biggest point I was trying to make. Drifloon's supportive capabilities are what warrants a rise, I simply covered some other good things as well. From my understanding, the only way you counter argued its support options was with saying that Gastly would do better in such a role, but its extremely low bulk, lesser movepool, and typically worse typing completely contradict that.

 

[sam-testings]

Well, Gastly isn't really a support mon in the first place. We are talking about two entirely different purposes here right now. Gastlys role is to kill, while the set you describe above is to support. Also, Drifloon can't support and hit hard at the same time. It has to do one or the other or else it ends up dieing a whole lot. It should get a rise in my opinion, but comparing it to Gastly is like comparing mienfoo to scraggy.

 

[Celestavian]

Drifloon can't be that bulky, that offensive and that fast at the same time, one of them has to be left out. You only mentioned the defensive numbers so I don't know exactly what that spread would be running in the way of Attack, Special Attack, or Speed, but from what I've seen, it can choose between three spreads: max Attack, almost no Special Attack, and 15 Speed before Unburden, 17 Speed with almost no Attack or Special Attack, or a "middle of the road" with 13 Attack and 16 Speed. To keep power, you have to drop down to 15 Speed, which puts you underneath the big boss himself: Pawniard. To keep Speed, you tickle everything even after getting your full power Acrobatics, and forget getting past walls even with Knock Off. The middle of the road set ties with Pawniard and has slightly more power. I can't really see any other possibilities besides changing Attack to Special Attack, but the idea of Drifloon being able to have that bulk and still be the offensive threat you tout it to be just doesn't add up. Naturally, no Pokemon can hit hard, hit fast, and take hits well at the same time, but the fact that you claim it can beat its checks with a spread like that doesn't make sense. How are you getting past Archen? What about Ponyta? No EV spread is doing that. You do mention that Unburden lets you outspeed and OHKO things that can OHKO Drifloon, and 2HKO things that can't, and that is true to some extent. The problem is with that spread, more things outspeed you before Unburden, or you don't hit as hard and miss some of those 2HKOes.

Drifloon has a way to beat all of its checks? How? It's not getting past Ponyta any time soon without Toxic, even with Destiny Bond since burn damage doesn't trigger its effects. Disregarding Destiny Bond, any Flying resist at all is stopping it cold, since Shadow Ball doesn't really hit any Flying resists out there very hard at all, and even with as much Special Attack as it can afford to run, HP Fighting does not OHKO Pawniard. Memento is only good if you have a set-up attacker waiting in the wings or if your opponent has only one Pokemon left. Will-o-Wisp doesn't do anything to special attackers besides deal some residual damage. Knock Off only works on switch ins, because the turn spent using that against anything that stays in is a turn you are getting smacked hard. Fletchling can actually get past more of its checks than Drifloon can without sacrificing itself, since it has actual offensive coverage moves that can beat its checks such as Overheat or even Steel Wing. Drifloon has Knock Off, Hidden Power, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Return, and Explosion as coverage moves, and none of those are helping it get past any of the Pokemon I listed above. Destiny Bond is not "getting past its checks" in the traditional sense because Drifloon is still dying, and if you aren't using that, then pretty much everything remotely threatening about Drifloon's Speed falls away.

I'm not trying to deny that Drifloon has good support options, and I only suggested Gastly because I was unaware of this set you just posted. I am very surprised at the bulk Drifloon can have when it runs that spread. Even so, I don't believe that Drifloon is good enough to rise beyond where it is. For Defog sets, what does Drifloon have over Archen? A Fighting immunity, which is not that relevant here since no Fighting-type is staying in against Archen's nuclear Acrobatics. It has Destiny Bond to KO an enemy after it has outlived its usefulness, but that is predictable and easily played around if you have the means to do it. It can't check Fletchling since it can just Swords Dance in Drifloon's face and OHKO it at +2. It doesn't have Stealth Rock so it can't reset its own hazards if it removes them with its Defog. If you're so concerned about bulk, Vullaby is extremely bulky even after Knock Off, while having the same power as Drifloon's Acrobatics at the cost of recoil and in exchange for having that power immediately and not being useless if it is forced out after losing its item. It gets U-turn too, which is awesome for the surprise factor and getting in frail Pokemon with its 12 Speed. If you're looking for a status platform with Memento, why not Cottonee? Fighting-types aren't getting past it either, and while it doesn't have Will-o-Wisp, it has plenty of support options, and never has to worry about triggering Unburden since it gets Prankster. It has no offensive presence whatsoever, however, but if you're using Memento, you better have a sweeper waiting in the wings, who will surely make up for the damage that Cottonee is not dealing.

 

[infamy]

In my opinion, you're completely disregarding arguably the best thing Drifloon can do: Memento. With Memento, Drifloon can provide fantastic team support by switching into an attack that brings it below 50%, KOing what it can, and then crippling whatever switches into it barring Pawniard. This can provide invaluable setup opportunities for Pokemon like Zigzagoon and Shellder, which otherwise have trouble setting up. This trait alone makes Drifloon a very splashable Pokemon on offense, and, when its other niches are taken into consideration, makes it worthy of B+ in my opinion.

 

[The Quasar]

My little cent for Drifloon. It's really versatile. More than roles you have just described very well, it could be a good BP (with Stockpile / Calm Mind), truly dangerous aka TrickSpecs and finally with a "simply" CM set with BJ and Recycle. Drifllon is versatile and quite impredictable at turn 1, I think.

 

[Merritt]

I'd like to nominate either Dratini for C- or Axew for C+. Both of the two have primary roles as Dragon Dance sweepers or wallbreakers, but Axew is better Dratini in both roles, especially as a dragon dancer, with Dratini's only advantages being its mixed ability and Extremespeed.

As a Dragon Dancer, Axew's advantage is obvious in the form of more speed and significantly more attack. Axew hits 19 attack (or 18 if Jolly) and 15 speed (or 16 if Jolly) while Dratini only has 17 attack (or 16 if running a speed boosting nature) and 14 speed (15 if running a speed boosting nature). This leaves Axew in a much better position after a single dragon dance to outspeed the +1 14 speed tier and also lets it gain more KOs, sitting at 28/27 attack at +1 compared to Dratini's 25/24. These greater initial stats also let it dent opposing teams before dancing much better than Dratini can.

When it comes to finding opportunities to set up, as well, Axew has the advantage due to better bulk. Since Dratini usually holds a Life Orb to make up for its lack of power, especially if it is running a mixed set, this only emphasises Axew's naturally greater bulk. One of the selling points of running Dratini over Axew is that it can beat priority users through Extremespeed, but Axew is bulky enough to survive priority attacks and OHKO back.

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Axew: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

And even then, Dratini often just lacks enough power with a non-STAB ESpeed to OHKO.

+1 244+ Atk Life Orb Dratini Extreme Speed vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Axew also has a better movepool than Dratini. While it lacks any special presence, Axew has the ability to run Dragon Claw over Outrage, which doesn't leave it vulnerable to fairy type revenge killers, Poison Jab over Iron Tail, which has far more accuracy, and Superpower over Fire Blast, letting it hit steel types with its boosted stronger attacking stat. While Axew struggles more with dedicated physical walls, Dratini's non-STAB Fire Blast doesn't hit very hard unless it's super effective.

I feel that Axew outclasses Dratini enough that it should be a rank higher, but I am unsure as to whether Axew deserves C+ or Dratini deserves C-.

 

[Tymano]

This thread has been absent for a while, so I will comment

Porygon is an amazing defensive mon with some great offensive and defensive moves and roles, So I support it moving up to A+

I don't agree with drifloon, it might have really great support moves, but there are a lot better defoggers and memento users out there.
Plus it's weak to KOff, so keep it where it is.

In regards to Axew and Dratini, Axew is a better D-Dancer then Dratini, and isn't as weak to sprit as Dratini, but E-speed is nice.
In the end, I say raise Axew, but keep Dratini in the same place.

Other things I comment on.
Anorith C- -> C but no higher
Magnemite A+ -> A Support
Growlithe C -> C+/C- Do not support
Tyrunt C- -> C/C+ Support
Teddiursa C- -> C/ C+ Support, but no higher than C
Buneary C- -> C+/B- Do not support
Ponyta A+ -> A do not support
Tirtouga A -> A- Support

Edit; I hate typing on my phone, too difficult to post.

 

[tazz]

Growlithe ----> C-
There's really just not enough reason to use it over ponyta, who pretty much just fills the exact same role. It's intimidate is nice for checking scarf foo, but it loses out on a fast wow and morning sun, which really hurts it.
Bulbasaur ----> C- Again, as a sun sweeper it's pretty outclassed by bellsprout, only being able to threaten webs and sun more which isn't worth it.

 

[Shrug]

While Axew struggles more with dedicated physical walls, Dratini's non-STAB Fire Blast doesn't hit very hard unless it's super effective.

I feel that Axew outclasses Dratini enough that it should be a rank higher, but I am unsure as to whether Axew deserves C+ or Dratini deserves C-.

I'm going to say Axew to C+. I used SD Axew under webs (ugh) once, and it hit stupidly hard, +2 Iron Tailed a Spritzee to death, followed by a near OHKO on a Slowpoke with Outrage. SD wrecks defensive teams, it's good, so C+

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Anorith C- -> C
Magnemite A+ -> A
Tyrunt C- -> C+
Teddiursa C- -> C+
Buneary C- -> C
Tirtouga A -> A-
Drifloon B- -> B/B+
Axew C -> C-


For me. I will argue later, i'm too tired atm. I can just say that Axew is totally, but really totally outclassed by tyrunt. SD Axew is playable though.

 

[Holiday]

Okay I have 2 Noms. Snivy to B+ or B, and Purrloin to C.

People say that Snivy is a pokemon that needs a lot of support but really any fire type is an amazing partner for it. It's incredibly selfish and easy to set up since you're gonna hit something 90% of the time with a 130 BP STAB move and get +2 SpA off of it. The SubGlare set made popular by absdaddy is probably the best set imho, and it really just takes such little to set up. It's a crime Snivy is lower than Onix or Lickitung.

Alright now based kitty. It's got some interesting support moves, but for the most part it's outclassed more or less by cotton. the set ive been using, however, is more closely related to Riolu in the role of a Copycat sweeper (Copycat/Encore/Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse) it can shut down set up sweepers with encore while boosting to solid levels and sweeping with priority Dark Pulse. It obviously has some flaws, but that's what teammates are for, and I definitely think it deserves the rank of C or C- for the ability to shut down things like baton pass and set up, while also taking an offensive route with NP.

Also, as I'm writing this people want to drop Archen idk if anyone's gonna post about it but just letting everyone know if they have input.