Resource LC Viability Rankings

[tcr]

Just ban diglett fuck s tier

 

[rhydonphilip]

I wouldn't say it's worth A+ , A already shows that the poke has great potential, sadly just like most A ranked pokes they lack, they have down sides and flaws, even with high speed, acces to (non-stab suckerpunch) priority and the ability to set however this set up is mostly of cost for another important move.
This move is substitude or sucker punch depending on what you would prefer, i just see sucker punch as a needed move.
Missing out on substitude makes pawniard a hell of a lot harder to play against(you could still win if you spam sucker punch and prevent pawniards sucker but that's rediculess.) and as we all know pawniard is one of the main things diglett needs to check so you are limited to use with a slight bit.
Undoutably Life Orb is the better item it allows it to get 2HKO's on some pokes aswell as a small chance to 1HKO pokes(it would also need SR up to fully 1HKO)
I think the current meta just allows the poke to shine slighty more then it is worth.

Don't get me wrong i fully realise the potential with diglett aswell as the use, heck i even use it every 1/5 teams but still, the point is it's not as potential as ponyta, magnemite, spritzee who even tho there not that mutch versatile movepool/used pool are still able to shine very bright. However about anyone could use these pokes, it's harder to use diglett(it's a offencive poke) then it is to no brain with ponyta and trow flames everywhere(this doesn't take away it's use though).


All together i don't see the poke run A+ only if the meta game would be that good for it, what even now it's not and i can barely see a more potential time then with the current Volt-Turn wars.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Diglett is also an easy fit on teams centred around a cleaner like BD Ziggs or Magby, Shell Smashers, Fletch (or just any playstyle ^). Not only it traps its counters to death but can Memento on things that threaten his teammate (say foo x BD Ziggs) allowing an easy set up. Can also be rock setter, tho def not the most optimal one. The support this guy provides is amazing, wouldn't mind seeing him as S- rank imo. Trapping is too good imao.

Just a small note pancham would actualy support BD ziggy better because of Parting Shot allowing slow momentum aswell as less damage taken from the opposing pokemon the turn after = easier set up. What in the current game is highly preferable.

 

[Cheryl.]

Nominating Omanyte to A rank
Omanyte is a potent sweeper, with it's 90 special attack and a powerful boosting option in Shell Smash. It has great coverage in Ice Beam and Earth Power, the only thing it can't hit hard is Ferroseed, which can be killed with teammates like Ponyta or HP Fire Gothita. Omanyte also has a giant 100 defense that helps it set up on things like Fletchling or Ponyta. Also, Omanyte doesn't just have the Shell Smash set, it can use it's defense in a utility set, as it has access to Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Problems with Omanyte include weaknesses to common Fighting and Grass types, which can make it hard to set up, especially with stuff like Encore Cottonee. Mach Punch Timburr can also kill a weakened Omanyte. But Omanyte is a very big threat right now and should rise.

Also nominating Snivy to A- rank
Snivy is unique for access of the Contrary Leaf Storm combination, which is basically a STAB Nasty Plot that does damage and can't be taunted. This can turn Snivy into a wrecking ball that can sweep unprepared teams. It also is a fearsome wallbreaker with Leaf Storm, which can open holes in the other team so other teammates can sweep. Snivy also has a pretty good speed and passable bulk. Access to moves like Glare and Synthesis also can make it easier for Snivy to set up. Problems with Snivy include it's lack of coverage other than Hidden Power, and weaknesses to common Fire and Flying attacks, but Snivy is a really good pokemon right now and should rise to A-.

Here's some replays of their power:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-251712226 (Omanyte saves my butt here, Snivy cleans up)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-251776419 (If Egas didn't forfeit, Omanyte would've stomped him mo0re)

 

[Rowan]

snivy to A-
gunk to B+

honedge to C+
snover to C+

 

[absdaddy]

gunk to d

 

[Celestavian]

After using Omanyte I think it's perfectly fine in A-. In my experience it works terribly as the only sweeper on a team because of how useless it can be if it doesn't get going. Don't get me wrong, it hits really hard, has great coverage, and has a fantastic Speed stat to just barely outspeed 17 Speed scarfers like Mienfoo and Chinchou that could otherwise mop the floor with it. It's not like Pokemon such as CM Spritzee or Timburr who can set up and take a few hits, Omanyte is feast or famine: you either kill everything or miss the KO and most likely die. Surf can miss out on some KOes, Hydro Pump can miss, and its coverage moves sometimes aren't strong enough even at +2 to KO Pokemon like Pumpkaboo-XL or Staryu. Of course you aren't going to be trying to sweep from turn 1, but unlike most other set-up sweepers, Shell Smash Omanyte is pretty much entirely locked away until it gets a chance to come out. When you put Omanyte on your team, you are putting yourself down 5-6 at the start of each match in exchange for the chance to sweep hard. A good trade-off I think, but a bit too risky to move out of A-.

More defensive hazard setting sets are relatively new but all I have seen them do so far is fill me with relief that I'm not fighting SS Omanyte, kind of like LO Torchic. That's really all I have to say on that since I've only seen it once or twice.

Also agreeing to Snivy for A-, it's got a lot of power and punishes switches and other such free turns really really hard with Substitute, Glare, and Leaf Storm's boosts.

 

[Cheryl.]

Time to post my thoughts on current topics:

Diglett from A to A+/S-: I agree, diglett is awesome and pretty powerful with LO guaranteeing some 2HKOs and OHKOS and it's super fast. Only problem is it's super frail but I support the rise.

Skrelp from A- to A: After testing it out some more, I still agree with the rise. It's just so awesome with Adaptibility, good Fighting and fairy check, and even has Toxic Spikes. Overall, a really good mon and deserves a rise.

Corphish from B+ to A-
Corphish is amazing right now. Another Adaptability user, Corphish has powerful Water STABS. Aqua Jet helps it clean up late game, and Crabhammer has insane power that helps Corphish break some walls, like Lickitung and Spritzee. I like to use the Choice Band set, that hits hard right off the bat and has Switcheroo to cripple some walls. (or just use crabhammer and kill them all lol) It also has the Eviolite set, that can either go AoA or have setup, as Corphish has access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. It also has Knock off for good neutral coverage and to knock off precious items. There are some problems with Corphish, though. It doesn't have the best bulk, and weaknesses to common types Grass and Electric doesn't help it either. It's also walled by Croagunk, but Gunk's falling out of favor, so that helps Corphish a lot. Overall, Corphish is amazing, and imo deserves a rise.

TL Dr: Corphish is a god.
Edit: I'm also still supporting the Scraggy rise, it's pretty good overall and should rise.

 

[Fiend]

The notion of Diglett's frailty withholding it from moving up is rather absurd to me. Unless you are using this pokemon as a pivot or a sweeper or a counter, the bulk shouldn't affect Diglett's capability to run through the meta. 90% of what you use Diglett to kill it OHKOes and does not get touched by and the other 10% is an arrangement of random low health pokemon, which notably shouldn't be able to kill or even Diglett, that you simply don't want escaping to bother you later (40% Eviolite Mienfoo, Spritzee, and Snubbull, <100% Abra, etc). Diglett is an offensive mon with several forms of utility which makes Ground-weak pokemon into liabilities and gives set up opportunities with decent simplicity.

Diglett does require team support to beat its checks, but this is neither exclusive to Diglett or an unconventional fact that is untrue for gods such as Scyther. But what is rather good about Diglett's checks is that even mediocre teams (and I like to think I'm an expert in this field) require a switch into functionally all of them to be successful anyway. But what should be considered is that for something to come in on Diglett, Diglett must have a) come in on a Ghost, b) come in on a Ground immunity (traditionally never Diglett food), or c) just got a kill. Naturally option c should be the most common scenario (otherwise you're using Diglett wrong imho), and obvious means you are now at the material advantage. And while this may seem as common sense, it seems to be overlooked due to the fact that the only arguments I have seen for keeping Diglett down, seem to hinge on it losing to a pokemon and being frail, the former almost never being significant in viability discussion and the latter not being preventing Diglett from doing its job and even potentially excelling beyond with very basic and literally always necessary support regardless to if Diglett is on your team.

 

[LHXLoisHK]

Shellos should deserve a rise in rank in my opinion. It has a superior moveset, and can tank hits, and a nice access to recovery moves.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Shellos should deserve a rise in rank in my opinion. It has a superior moveset, and can tank hits, and a nice access to recovery moves.

Welcome to smogon, hope you enjoy your time here at LC forums :] While Shellos sees no place in offense teams, stall should always consider it as an option to absorb Knock Off and it can reach 21/21 defenses, backed with a solid enough 27 HP. Sure, there are walls that can reach these numbers and further, but they eventually loses their Eviolite. As this isn't the case for Shellos, it can maintain solid chances to switch in on lots of attacks throughout the game. Pure Water-type is an incredible defensive typing, and we have quite few of these here. Recover also aids in Shello's walling a lot. Shellos even has access to Clear Smog so it doesn't become set up fooder to pretty much anything but Pawn, .
Basically defensive teams must have a good way to handle Knock Off. Shellos being a bulky water-type with reliable recovery, Scald and Sticky Hold makes it, imo, unique, and quite an asset to have, Knock Off being the best attacking move in this meta and in the game. Imo, I'm fine rising it to B. I hope I didn't oversell Shellos defensive capabilities tho; its defenses are far from being the very best of the meta and its offensive presence is nonexistant. There are some defensive mons that do apply offensive presence like Pony and Munchlax. So, Shellos is really more fittable in defensive teams; that' why it wouldn't be that good raising it too high.
Also it has access to some crazy stuff like Counter and Mirror Coat. Good for getting free KOs, but Shellos doesn't really have room for that.

 

[Berks]

Welcome to smogon, hope you enjoy your time here at LC forums :] While Shellos sees no place in offense teams, stall should always consider it as an option to absorb Knock Off and it can reach 21/21 defenses, backed with a solid enough 27 HP. About 30 defenses with Evio. Sure, there are walls that can reach these numbers and further, but they eventually loses their Eviolite. As this isn't the case for Shellos, it can maintain solid chances to switch in on lots of attacks throughout the game. Pure Water-type is an incredible defensive typing, and we have quite few of these here. Recover also aids in Shello's walling a lot. Shellos even has access to Clear Smog so it doesn't become set up fooder to pretty much anything but Pawn, .
Basically defensive teams must have a good way to handle Knock Off. Shellos being a bulky water-type with reliable recovery, Scald and Sticky Hold makes it, imo, unique, and quite an asset to have, Knock Off being the best attacking move in this meta and in the game. Imo, I'm fine rising it to B. I hope I didn't oversell Shellos defensive capabilities tho; its defenses are far from being the very best of the meta and its offensive presence is nonexistant. There are some defensive mons that do apply offensive presence like Pony and Munchlax. So, Shellos is really more fittable in defensive teams; that' why it wouldn't be that good raising it too high.
Also it has access to some crazy stuff like Counter and Mirror Coat. Good for getting free KOs, but Shellos doesn't really have room for that.

shellos' 21/21 defenses come after eviolite, so it's definitely not 30. If shellos had 27 / 31 / 31 bulk, it would definitely already be higher on this list.

Regardless, I like shellos and it should rise to B

 

[Max Carvalho]

shellos' 21/21 defenses come after eviolite, so it's definitely not 30. If shellos had 27 / 31 / 31 bulk, it would definitely already be higher on this list.

Regardless, I like shellos and it should rise to B

My bad, gonna fix, it would be king if it reached 31 lol.

 

[LHXLoisHK]

I use Shellos in my first team. It is one of the best tankers of the game.

In LC, my approach is all-round sweeper, which means able to take out your foe even though you're at a disadvantage. With Mienfoo, Timburr leading my attack, ! need a fall back option in case I need some defensive tanking.

Shellos is one of the MOST UNDERRATED pokemon in LC. Noone gives any love to it, as it is unpopular. But what makes Shellos stands out?
Let's take a look at my shellos:

Shellos @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 220 Def / 60 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Clear Smog
- Recover

This gives it a 27 hp, and 15 defence points to it, and a decent 13 sp attacker, and 12 sp.def, boosted by evilote, making it impossible to OHKO.
Now, what makes it special? It has sticky hold, an underutilised ability which ensures Knock off will never work. Now in LC, u can see almost all Fighting mons bringing Knock Off to their team. Shellos clearly prevents that, and will take a little to 25%-30% from a knock off from Mienfoo, or Pawniard.

So what can Shellos do much? Well, it's extremely high defence and low weakness makes it stands out in my battle against the big boys. Mienfoo could hardly deal any damage to Shellos, with crit is the only threat to Shellos. Shellos can return back with Scald, which can induce burn, effectively disabling Mienfoo. Shellos can also stall with recover if Mienfoo chooses to stay in. Earth Power, by far is one of the OP moves that Shellos can use in my opinion. If Mienfoo chooses to U turn, high chances are It's going to Chinchou or any electric types such as magmemite. Grass type are pretty uncommon here.

Chinchou or any electric have to risk eating a Super Effective Earth power which can chalk up to 70% to Chinchou. Shellos job here would be done, and it can switch out to one of my team mates, to tank a volt switch. Even better, u can predict to a diglett, effectively killing Magmemite, or Chinchou once and or all.

Now, my third choice would be clear smog. Sometimes, i would encounter Tirtouga which can shell smash, or even shellder. Shellos can safely switch in, if I can predict a shell smash, and clear smog them to take away their stats. Most stats boosting moves are usually physical, and Shellos insane Evilote- guarenteed boosted 15 defence, A stone edge from Tirtouga would deal at most 60-70%, and I can counter them with a clear smog to disable their sturdy and stats, which I can move on and recover, since Shellos would have outspeeded.

In conclusion, Shellos is one of the best tankers and recovery in this game, and it can harm them with burn and stall with recover. If Shellos would go 1v1 with the S Rank or the A rank pokemon, shellos would come up strong. Eg: Flecthing acro can only deal 33%, and no sd too. Archen cant take a burn from Scald, and EQ deals also 30% to it. Pawniard cant even hurt it with Iron head, and shellos can finish it with Earth Power. The only downside are pokemon with snivy, Electric, and Abra too, but with 6 pokemon in your team, Shellos would be perfectly fitted in any team to try to stop prevent a sweep, or taking down annoying pokemon.

Advantage: Impressive ability
Great Recovery Move
Can prevent Sweep
High defense to eat a move

Disadvantage: Electric, Grass
Need to be careful of Sdef

So therefore, Shellos should rise to being A- or A. I know it sounds silly, but I have tried Shellos long enough to know it will survive them. You just have to try it to believe it

 

[Berks]

I use Shellos in my first team. It is one of the best tankers of the game.

In LC, my approach is all-round sweeper, which means able to take out your foe even though you're at a disadvantage. With Mienfoo, Timburr leading my attack, ! need a fall back option in case I need some defensive tanking.

Shellos is one of the MOST UNDERRATED pokemon in LC. Noone gives any love to it, as it is unpopular. But what makes Shellos stands out?
Let's take a look at my shellos:

Shellos @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 220 Def / 60 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Clear Smog
- Recover

This gives it a 27 hp, and 15 defence points to it, and a decent 13 sp attacker, and 12 sp.def, boosted by evilote, making it impossible to OHKO.
Now, what makes it special? It has sticky hold, an underutilised ability which ensures Knock off will never work. Now in LC, u can see almost all Fighting mons bringing Knock Off to their team. Shellos clearly prevents that, and will take a little to 25%-30% from a knock off from Mienfoo, or Pawniard.

So what can Shellos do much? Well, it's extremely high defence and low weakness makes it stands out in my battle against the big boys. Mienfoo could hardly deal any damage to Shellos, with crit is the only threat to Shellos. Shellos can return back with Scald, which can induce burn, effectively disabling Mienfoo. Shellos can also stall with recover if Mienfoo chooses to stay in. Earth Power, by far is one of the OP moves that Shellos can use in my opinion. If Mienfoo chooses to U turn, high chances are It's going to Chinchou or any electric types such as magmemite. Grass type are pretty uncommon here.

Chinchou or any electric have to risk eating a Super Effective Earth power which can chalk up to 70% to Chinchou. Shellos job here would be done, and it can switch out to one of my team mates, to tank a volt switch. Even better, u can predict to a diglett, effectively killing Magmemite, or Chinchou once and or all.

Now, my third choice would be clear smog. Sometimes, i would encounter Tirtouga which can shell smash, or even shellder. Shellos can safely switch in, if I can predict a shell smash, and clear smog them to take away their stats. Most stats boosting moves are usually physical, and Shellos insane Evilote- guarenteed boosted 15 defence, A stone edge from Tirtouga would deal at most 60-70%, and I can counter them with a clear smog to disable their sturdy and stats, which I can move on and recover, since Shellos would have outspeeded.

In conclusion, Shellos is one of the best tankers and recovery in this game, and it can harm them with burn and stall with recover. If Shellos would go 1v1 with the S Rank or the A rank pokemon, shellos would come up strong. Eg: Flecthing acro can only deal 33%, and no sd too. Archen cant take a burn from Scald, and EQ deals also 30% to it. Pawniard cant even hurt it with Iron head, and shellos can finish it with Earth Power. The only downside are pokemon with snivy, Electric, and Abra too, but with 6 pokemon in your team, Shellos would be perfectly fitted in any team to try to stop prevent a sweep, or taking down annoying pokemon.

Advantage: Impressive ability
Great Recovery Move
Can prevent Sweep
High defense to eat a move

Disadvantage: Electric, Grass
Need to be careful of Sdef

So therefore, Shellos should rise to being A- or A. I know it sounds silly, but I have tried Shellos long enough to know it will survive them. You just have to try it to believe it

I'd like you to know that I too have used Shellos extensively, and even very recently posted an RMT with Shellos as the first team member.

With that, here are the things that make Shellos struggle in this current meta.

• Shellos is, in general, a full- or semi-stall Pokemon. This puts it at an inherent disadvantage in Little Cup, which is a generally offensive metagame.
• Due to its inherently stallish nature, Shellos is very passive, and thereby gives up momentum to the other team.
• The Shellos spread you've provided is not even the most effective one, as a spread of 228 HP / 212 Def / 20 SpD / 4 Spe with a Calm Nature allows it to obtain effective 27 / 21 / 21 bulk thanks to Eviolite.
• Shellos has a very difficult time with status. The chip damage from a burn and the damage from poisoning hinder Shellos' ability to avoid several important KOs. It also depends on Recover more often than it would like, and as such, an untimely full paralysis can spell its doom.
• Shellos has a very difficult time with Pokemon present on Volt-Turn teams, arguably the most dominant archtype in the tier. Pokemon like Chinchou run all over Shellos, making it even more of a momentum drain.

Nonetheless, Shellos is a strong Pokemon, and is well deserving of a rise. However, a rise to A- or A is far too high, as Shellos is nowhere near the effectiveness of Pokemon like Snivy or Gothita. I, for one, would like to see Shellos rise to B.

 

[LHXLoisHK]

I'd like you to know that I too have used Shellos extensively, and even very recently posted an RMT with Shellos as the first team member.

With that, here are the things that make Shellos struggle in this current meta.

• Shellos is, in general, a full- or semi-stall Pokemon. This puts it at an inherent disadvantage in Little Cup, which is a generally offensive metagame.
• Due to its inherently stallish nature, Shellos is very passive, and thereby gives up momentum to the other team.
• The Shellos spread you've provided is not even the most effective one, as a spread of 228 HP / 212 Def / 20 SpD / 4 Spe with a Calm Nature allows it to obtain effective 27 / 21 / 21 bulk thanks to Eviolite.
• Shellos has a very difficult time with status. The chip damage from a burn and the damage from poisoning hinder Shellos' ability to avoid several important KOs. It also depends on Recover more often than it would like, and as such, an untimely full paralysis can spell its doom.
• Shellos has a very difficult time with Pokemon present on Volt-Turn teams, arguably the most dominant archtype in the tier. Pokemon like Chinchou run all over Shellos, making it even more of a momentum drain.

Nonetheless, Shellos is a strong Pokemon, and is well deserving of a rise. However, a rise to A- or A is far too high, as Shellos is nowhere near the effectiveness of Pokemon like Snivy or Gothita. I, for one, would like to see Shellos rise to B.

I would like to voice my opinions on some of the points you raised.

1. Shellos is, in general, a full- or semi-stall Pokemon. This puts it at an inherent disadvantage in Little Cup, which is a generally offensive metagame.

I actually kind off disagree with this statement. Most of my battles now last for 30-50 turns. There's too many Mienfoo U-turn, Chinchou Volt Switch and so on. More burn pokemon like Larvesta and Ponyta is appearing more often to burn and stall out your fighting pokemon. Foongus is there to cause your pokemon to fall asleep and sap your life out with leech. Intimidate pokemon are coming out and forcing you to switch to a better matchup This metagame, in my opinion is going towards the stalling and defensive side. Even so, Shellos fit in well with offensive and defensive team.

2. Shellos moveset I gave is actually considered as offensive, considering it's main responsibilities of is to tank Physical Hits and scare them away for burn them, or predict. having that extra boost in sp attack can be helpful to take out pokemon that are switching in and out. The extra speed is not needed, as Shellos itself is too slow, and sdef is not required, as Shellos is a very bulky offensive. I can switch Shellos out to tank an energy ball from abra, ot a volt switch from electric type.

3. Shellos does not gives up momentum to the other team, it takes away their momentum. It's moves are designed to prevent any set up, and 1 burn from Scald is enough for the pokemon to be disabled. Also, most pokemon that do set up are usually physical, So Shellos stands well here: to tank, to burn, to recover and survive.

4. As I mentioned, Volt U turn is common here. However this is where prediction comes into play, and Shellos can do well in it. If anyone u turn to a chinchou, Shellos can hurt it greatly with earth Power, severely limiting the amount of u turn/ volt switch pokemon. Also, With Shellos typing and bulk, there is usually a few pokemon that are common to be lured in by shellos.

If Shellos is played out well, and paired by a team to support the counters of shellos, you will be dominating in most matches.

 

[Merritt]

Shellos is a cool guy, being one of the only viable Sticky Hold users in the meta (rip Grimer fk u gulpin) and unlike its fellow Trubbish, Shellos has access to more reliable recovery than BJ Recycle. Granted, BJ recycle is pretty much a full HP heal every time, but being able to run Eviolite makes Shellos significantly bulkier. However, Shellos has some very unfortunately flaws that are overlooked in a nomination towards A- rank.

Its typing isn't the best thing in the world. While at least it's not a psychic type wall, its water typing does few favors for it. Defensively it provides few useful resistances (for fire types Larvesta's just going to U-turn out and Ponyta almost always carries some form of grass/electric coverage) and gives it weaknesses to both Electric and Grass, which are actually damn good offensive types considering Snivy and Magnemite. It also leaves it completely vulnerable to all entry hazards. If Shellos was a water/ground type like its evolution then it'd have a better defensive typing, but pure water does it no particular favors.

Status cripples it. While it's already slow so paralysis isn't as bad as it could be, due to how many things hit it at least neutrally, it has an extreme reliance on recover as H&MBerkeley pointed out. So many things 3HKO it that a single missed turn can result in a dead slug. Burn damage and poison damage also mean that Shellos loses out on avoiding some 2HKOs that it needs to. Shellos also has an issue with relying itself on status, which can be a bit of an issue when you burn the Timburr you were typing to counter. Also Shellos is weak af, Earth Power doesn't even 2HKO Eviolite Chinchou.

Shellos' defenses aren't even all that spectacular. Never let anybody tell you that they aren't good, but when you also consider that Knock Off is always at full power when hitting Shellos it hurts like hell. It also means Shellos can have a very difficult time countering knock off users due to how hard it's hit.

156 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 228 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(idk if LO pawn actually runs max attack, but either way it's the same rolls.)

Pancham is also a thing now, and sure it isn't the most common thing but it has to be taken into account.

LHXLoisHK there's a couple things I have to disagree with you about. Stall in LC is very, very hard and I don't think any full stall teams have ever been used to success. Semi-Stall is usable, but it also has issues against some of the most common Pokemon in the meta, although it can (and has) be done very well. Just because a match lasts 30 turns doesn't mean that you're in a stall game, a match that lasts 100 turns is a stall game. You also have to consider some of the obscenely powerful sweepers in the meta like Fletchling, Zigzagoon, and Omanyte.

Shellos also absolutely gives up momentum a lot of the time. Because it's used as a Knock Off absorber, it switches into moves, not try to check mons. Because of Shellos' lackluster defensive typing it's often able to be 3HKOed by what it tries to counter. This means you have to recover, since even if they switch to something to force you out (putting momentum in their favor) you have to keep Shellos healthy to continue countering. In addition, if you go for the 30% scald burn and fail, the opponent gets to kill Shellos by 3HKOing it.

In a lot of ways I see Shellos as the opposite end of the spectrum from Clefable in OU. Shellos has great defenses post-eviolite while Clefable's stats are subpar for a defensive mon. However Shellos has essentially no ability and a subpar defensive typing while Clefable has godly abilities and an equally good defensive typing. It's not the greatest comparison, but I find it interesting how small a role stats can play.

Overall I could see Shellos moving up to B at most. Any higher would be absurd and an insult to the extremely good mons in B+ or higher.

 

[LHXLoisHK]

Shellos is a fall back option really. Personally, it all comes down to the team building aspect, and what to look out for.


Actually, it all comes down to personal preferences. We cant just assume one pokemon is awesome and in the A grade just because it can be a sweeper, or help others. Shellos is underrated to the extent tat i see almost noone ever uses it. Even so, it is used wrongly.

As you mentioned, Shellos has only 2 weakness, and i already stated these are it's disadvantages. But if you were to look at teams now, you will see looks at Mienfoo, Timburr, Pawniard etc all the S to A rank pokemon running wild. And in my experience in battle, Shellos has never failed to disappoint me to be able to keep track on these pokemon. Mienfoo can't even hurt Shellos, as Drain Punch would jsut deal 33.3% to my Shellos, resulting in me getting a free scald attack, or recover, forcing it to switch. Now, prediction comes into play. What can I do? If electric is coming in, Earth Power greets them, while clear smog meets my other threats.

The idea of Shellos:

1. Hit hard to deal damage over time.

As you mentioned, this game is a volt/u-turn populated. You can either play safe and switch appropriate, or you can be smart and damage it hard enough to cut down this trend. My example: Mienfoo vs Shellos. It uses U turn, and guessing Shellos is trying to get the lucky burn. Chinchou happily take the water attack, but what happens? Earth power greets them, serverly limiting their volt switch number, and shellos happily switch out with a better matchup to a nice advantage.

Facing a Pawniard what can you do? Iron Head is definitely not going to scratch Shellos, knock off can't take out evolite. Your idea of getting 2HKO is strange, as I said one burn is enough to disable it, leading to recover. Also you can spam recover to keep it healthy till it can survive 2 hits to try for another burn. If opponent do switch to electric/matchup, at least Shellos is healthy enough when switch out, allowing my team to have a better matchup.

The ability Sticky Hold is in fact in my opinion, one of the best ability in the LC game, as LC focuses a lot on knock off. Almost every pokemon will knock off one's item, especially evilote to ensure more damage will be done. Shellos blocks that well, and with recover, it doesn't really matter about it's typings. as i said earlier, most fighting mon dont even have a electric or grass move, barring thunder punch. A 1v1 with them would be in favor of Shellos if you used it well.

"Any higher would be absurd and an insult to the extremely good mons in B+ or higher."

I will personally analyse some of the pokemon in the higher rank, to see if that's really an insult, or people won't admit it's good as noone uses it.


S Rank : Mienfoo, pawniard
As stated just now, there is virtually no way these 2 mon can 2HKO it without boosting it's stats. Also, Shellos run 212+ def, not 132+. Drain Punch Mienfoo ( 37% max) Knock Off pawniard (40% max). Definitely enough for Shellos to use recover to get it back to healthy mode and get the burn to decide the tie.

thus Shellos pretty much walls these 2 mons.

S- rank : Abra, Timburr
Abra is a bit problemetic. It can probably deal around 40-50% with psychic, or 80-90% with energy ball. Unless your team is well build to be able to cover Shellos, you can go ahead and destroy the sash and finish abra off with a priority move or so on.

Timburr with guts can be unhealthy to Shellos, drain punch around 38-50%, but nevertheless, there's move like earth power u can use to get a lucky drop in sdef. But, it's bulk up is completely neutralised by clear smog, giving it no chance to setup. When used earlier in the battle, if Timurr switches, you have to see your opponent team and predict which mon is coming in to get the adbvantage in this turn/volt battle.

Shellos finds it evenly match with Timburr, and Abra might be a problem to Shellos iff Abra had energy ball, but if your team can affor a shellos sacrifise and a mon to finish it off, this gambel might not be that bad.

A+ rank: Archen, Fletching Magmemite, ponyta
it is a bit disheartening when u keep mentioning shellos defence is nothing. but i used shellos in so many battle tto know defence is something.

Against Archen, it's strongest move Stone Edge, can probably do around 40-50%. yes I really went to calculate it. Shellos here, can go for a scald, knowing 2 stone edge wont kill it. Also Scald will defeat Archen most of the time, or even leave it with a burn, and defeatist. So Archen is really bad against Shellos.

Fletching, surprisingly, can only deal 33-37% with boosted acrobactic. Clear Smog would be useful here if it decides to go for sword dance. Once shellos recover to the point, it can withstand 2 hits, scald comes in, dealing more than 50%. Process repeats itself, and it's made simpler if there was a burn.

magmemite: This is really risky, as you need to hope that they do come in from a uturn or volt switch to wreck it with earth power, after Stealth. However, if it comes in on a free switch, just run. Get a spdef bulky pokemon like munchlax to tank it. Avoid at all cost

Ponyta: This get interesting as Shellos Scald can hurt it badly (60-70%). Wild Charge deals around 60% to Shellos, since Shellos is def invested. Morning Sun Ponyta isnt befitting it , as Scald does more damage then the recovery. Also, Ponyta has to risk koing itelf from wild charge should it really go suicidal and kill itself, bring shellos down itself.

Shellos can almost match up with the offensive and defensive capabilities of these mons. You just have to use it to believe it

 

[tazz]

there's a reason nobody uses shellos: it faces a lot of competition from higher ranked mons on everything but stall (and even including stall). I don't think you can really argue that shellos doesn't lose momentum, it's complete u-turn bait, is forced to recover way too often providing switches, and is even forced out by volt switch. Since momentum is HUGE in such an offensively oriented tier, offense and balance teams hesitate to use shellos, for good reason. It does win vs most of the meta 1v1, but this is 6v6: pokemon can easily work together to force it out. So, hopefully you can see how it struggles for a teamslot on balance and offense. As for stall, a knock off user is very appreciated, but mienfoo and non CM spritzee work just fine as knock off sponges, as mienfoo forces out the pokemon that it absorbs, as does spritzee. I'm not saying that shellos isn't an underrated pokemon; it's an interesting option and does deserve use. However, these flaws hold it back from going any higher than B-.

 

[LHXLoisHK]

there's a reason nobody uses shellos: it faces a lot of competition from higher ranked mons on everything but stall (and even including stall). I don't think you can really argue that shellos doesn't lose momentum, it's complete u-turn bait, is forced to recover way too often providing switches, and is even forced out by volt switch. Since momentum is HUGE in such an offensively oriented tier, offense and balance teams hesitate to use shellos, for good reason. It does win vs most of the meta 1v1, but this is 6v6: pokemon can easily work together to force it out. So, hopefully you can see how it struggles for a teamslot on balance and offense. As for stall, a knock off user is very appreciated, but mienfoo and non CM spritzee work just fine as knock off sponges, as mienfoo forces out the pokemon that it absorbs, as does spritzee. I'm not saying that shellos isn't an underrated pokemon; it's an interesting option and does deserve use. However, these flaws hold it back from going any higher than B-.

Probably so. Team selection is so important here. While I agree it loses momentum, the focus of Shellos is prediction, making what the u turn pokemon would be and smack it with a super effective attack. Shellos, based on my above comments, show that it can win most head-to-head, and if it does swiitches, prediction moves such as Earth Power coe in handy.

Of course team choice is important here, so my team is built to support shellos and vice versa. In fact, i would like to post my team of LC to show clearly how one pokemon helps one another. I'm not bragging, but this team peaked the LC ladder on showdown at #4.
The main idea is to show how Shellos can be such a threat faced in a matchup, as it would certainly win any head to head, and prediction from Shellos may come in handy to wreck their volt/u-turn plan.

 

[gali]

shellos looks like it can wall a lot of stuff on paper but in practice its easy to win vs. anything with a super effective attack (even shit like chou, earth power is pretty weak) can force it out. it also doesnt help that snivy is popular rn. its also huge setup bait-any sd mon with sub or any special attacker can go to town boosting on it.

tl;dr good on paper != good in practice (see: DPP rampardos)

 

[kingmidas]

This discussion has been about the wrong points of his arguments. You all have been telling him issues he already knows, you have to say what those translate too in relation to the rankings. I would post more but on phone.

 

[elmatador]

shellos is a good check/counter to shellder, phish, cm spritzee, and countless others. the stockpile set also serves as a wincon as once it gets set up very little is going to be able to take it down. however it has no business in A. leave it where it is or maybe up to B

scraggy to B+ makes sense to me because it can knock off its fairy switch ins and cripple them for the match. ddance knock off drain punch and hjk is only walled by fairies which can be dealt with by your team.

diglett to a+/s is a no brainer imo. frailty doesn't affect it when it gets to pick what fights it thanks to it's ability

 

[OP]

I've used Diglett way more than I really should. I've used it in all of my LCPL games and much of my SPLC games. I even spam it in roomtours and other tournaments like the "God's Among Us" tour. After using it so much, I still think that moving it to S- is absolutely absurd. Even A+ is very much debatable. By the very definitions, Diglett struggles to fit in. Both sets require a pretty sizable amount of support. Neither set can perform well with Sticky Web up and the Sash set also requires other hazards to be removed. Furthermore, both sets struggle to switch into battle at all, making slow pivots almost a necessity. Another aspect of the S-/A+ rankings is the risk/reward that comes with the Pokemon. The sash set has a rather low risk because of its ability to consistently support the team with Rocks/Memento/Not relying on mindgames to kill Pawniard, but the Life Orb set has a higher risk to it. If your opponent doesn't bring anything weak to Diglett, it can end up having very little impact on the game and sometimes even becomes set-up bait. Many people seem to think that Life Orb Diglett is the superior set, but I personally disagree because I enjoy the consistency of the Sash set along with its ability to actually switch into battle sometimes.

I believe that Diglett punishes bad teambuilding and can only clean through teams when it isn't really prepared for. I've been looking at LCPL games to see how true this was and how effective Diglett can be in the highest level matches. In almost every game that Diglett has been in so far, it has been rather lackluster.

fatty v Sam: Diglett comes into battle on a double early on, but Sam doesn't predict the right Pokemon and it is switched out. It then doesn't do anything until it's the last Pokemon when it kills a 50% Chinchou and then dies.

Cydrolic v radianthero156: At the cost of his full health cottonee and only because he got back to back crits, Radian is able to kill a 50% knocked off Foongus with Diglett. Diglett then gets trapped by Trace Porygon and weakens it.

OP v madoka: Diglett never comes into battle

tazzie v Cydrolic: Tazzie has to make a risky double and win a 50/50 just to kill Pawniard. Diglett is then counter-trapped by trace porygon.

OP vs Brazilian Army: BA's Diglett trades for my Aipom. My Diglett is sacked just to weaken Spritzee, it also gets up rocks because BA used Wish when it was unnecessary.

tazzie v fatty: Diglett wins a 50/50 to kill pawniard, weakens Cottonee.

LJDarkrai v galbia: Diglett is sacked just to weaken an Omanyte after shell smash with Sucker Punch.

Mysteria v Sweep: Diglett is sacked for a free switch to a teammate.

Cydrolic v Blarajan: Diglett traps and kills Larvesta, dies later on to turn 1 wake Magnemite. The first match I saw Diglett with the potential to perform really well.

OP v Melon: Melon brings a team weak to LO Diglett against someone who has brought Diglett every week, silly move my friend. Diglett is able to clean through his team after a little bit of softening up.

Celestavian v Cheek Pouch: Diglett kills a 16% Chinchou and then deals an effective 16% to Timburr after Drain Punch recovery.

Rowan v Goao: Diglett traps a LO Abra, kills a Surskit at the cost of Sticky Webs going up (not that webs mattered at that point), and uses memento on a Mienfoo to allow Chinchou to beat it 1v1.

tazzie v Blarajan: tazzie wins 50/50s to kill a pawniard. Diglett is later sacked on a misprediction.

all replays collected using this amazing thread.

I would say Diglett played a key role in maybe 3 or 4 of these games and was otherwise pretty bad. Viability rankings should reflect a Pokemon's viability in the highest level of play and it seems pretty clear to me that Diglett isn't all that great when players prepare for it, especially considering that it requires more support than most. I think it should stay at A.

 

[Starbreeze]

Well he hits like a truck thats for sure, but he has a few key flaws in this current meta:

1. Poor Defenses: While not super important since he makes up for it with choice-scarf speed, he lacks berry juice and eviolite, making him easy fodder for priority attacks that are rampant.
2. Typing: Fire type isnt bad in general, but with all the bulky water types around (Chinchou, Slowpoke, Tirtouga, Carvanha[While not bulky, it can protect to get a boost and outspeed darumaka with an aqua jet or waterfall]) it makes it hard to keep him out.
3. Choice scarf is his only viable set, and being locked into a move is not so great for a sweeper in this tier. only a few pokes run scarf and they are usually Chinchou, Magnemite, and Bunnelby (maybe) which are great at soaking hits and gaining momentum.
4. Hustle: Nobody likes -20% accuracy, way too risky.

*edit* - That being said though, with Tangela gone from the sun, Darumaka in the sun with flareblitz hits like a comet. but the recoil also stops him there.

And stealth rock weakness hurts

to clarify on the scarf sets, pokemon like snivy and inkay work well with it due to contrary :)