Lead Theory Discussion

[Run]

So much of what goes into a team is focused on the lead pokemon. I think it would be a good idea, as a community, to try to further our understanding of leads with more than just trial and error in the current metagame. I propose we describe what we want a lead to do in-depth for a team and how it fits in to the rest of the battle (if at all). Here are some ideas I've come up with I'd like to discuss.

1) The purpose of a lead is to gain momentum for your team:

A lot of teams lose from the get-go because their lead pokemon, for whatever reason, is unable to get the momentum of the match flowing in their favor. If they recieve a bad matchup in lead vs. lead, they try to quickly SR and die. THIS IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE LEAD! Many Aerodactl go down to my Kingdra lead without ever dealing a hit, its poor playing. IMO, suicide leads aren't much better because the second pokemon becomes a coin toss. Leads, and therefore teams, often fail because they fail to gain momentum. What point is laying down SR if you can't make me switch?

2) Don't think of your lead as a single pokemon, think of it as an opening strategy:

In chess one plays one of several openings. Openings are dependant on how the early game develops. The goal of an opening is to set up control of the match so that you can play your strategy, and not allow your opponent's strategy to develop.

Going back to my Kingdra lead: my strategy for most games is to put my opponent in a reactive position and scout. Yawn forces switches or explosions, often bringing out their best Kingdra counter. I can opt do double Yawn if I have no fear of the opening pokemon returning, getting me to a third pokemon scouted, often a status absorber/inflictor like celebi. I Dragon Dance on the second switch and attempt to 2HKO the switch with either Waterfall or Outrage. My Kingdra carries Lum berry to absorb 1 status which almost always comes forcing my opponent to sacrifice a pokemon or at least get into revenge killing range. After absorbing 1 status, if I'm not locked into Outrage I can switch based on what status is coming. T-Wave: switch to Swampert and set up SR, Toxic: switch to scizor, U-turn to Swampert (who deals with a lot of scizor counters) and set up SR.

On average, in the end, I've scouted 2-4 pokemon, possibly taken out one (if not at least severely weakened 2), possibly put 1 to sleep, set up SR, and have a favorable Swampert matchup, all at the price of 6-18% health on SR damage and a statused or dead Kingdra... That is a successful lead to me. Kingdra has even 6-0'ed a lot of teams.
It all sounds very specific but the strategy works 9/10 matches. Very rarely do I end up without SR up by the time I'm done with the opening moves.

All teams should develop a few "plays" that should get their team ready to carry out the basic strategy of the team. This includes contingency plans for if the matchup is just so bad you can't play out your normal strategy. The end of an opening should leave your team ready to act and have a favorable matchup to work from.

3) An overy telegraphed lead loses effectiveness.

Any extremely predictable lead is less effective than it could be, therefore flexibility is important. I say this because if your goal is to gain momentum, and your opponent knows what you are going to do, they can plan accordingly. Another team I was working on with a Kingdra lead baited explosion with Yawn, then switched to Rotom-w to set up dual screen.

SR suicide leads lose to ghost and sometimes steel switch-in's. Trick scarf leads lose to choice switch-ins or pokemon that make good use of scarf and can threaten the lead. Taunt leads lose to offensive leads. It all seems like matchup problems that are out of your control but that's not true. It's all about planning and knowing your opponents goal. If your whole opening strategy revolves around a single pokemon doing a single set of actions, you will find yourself at a disadvantage to a good player.

-----------------------------

I think overall, the metagame has developed in such a way that it supports these ideas. The current popular leads, for the most part, are effective. My goal is to try to better our understanding of how leads should work and measure our current leads by those standards. Can we improve on what we have? Are there other possibilities we are ignoring? The only thing I don't want to see is a lead with a goal and no strategy.

My standards may be way off-base, that's why I'd like as many people as possible to contribute. Feel free to post questions, thoughts, strategies, movesets, or analysis of current ideas.

 

[Veedrock]

The biggest problem with your philosophy is that you highly undervalue Stealth Rock. You think that a situation where they SR and you Yawn puts YOU at the advantage, where in retrospect it really doesn't. Stealth Rock is a huge asset to almost any team, and you think forcing a switch is more beneficial than that, which it really is not.

Your other problem is that your matchups altogether is always best case scenario, like you play perfectly everytime without fail, so you can beat EVERYTHING out there. You yawn. If they explode, you switch. They switch, you yawn again. Oh but wait, it's a trick lead so you'll just switch to your trick absorber. It's not exactly that easy. You run down how Trick loses to choice pokemon, but what if they don't trick? Azelf and Jirachi can trick, but what if they're Sash varients? "Oh, so don't switch." Well how do you know? You don't. Every example you give is coming from paradise where you predict every move and know everything that'll happen. Your emphasis is too inclined towards "dude, that lead loses to A, B, and C, don't use it." Everything loses to something, you can't just "beat" every other lead with one collective package. Yes, they all have weaknesses and disadvantages; if one didn't, everyone would use that one.

Another thing, sometimes there are unorthadox leads (like your Yawn Kingdra) that you really can't prepare for. Choice Specs Heatran can OHKO Occa Metagross (the most common lead), but it's so situational that changing Metagross around or using a different lead is just not worth it.


Sorry if I misunderstood your post, but my main points are:

A) Stealth Rock is momentum.
B) Every lead has a weak point and literally cannot cover everything, so don't down certain ones just because "it loses to A, B, and C."

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Veedrock pretty much hit the nail on the head. While SR is certainly not a requirement on teams anymore like it used to be, most teams that have suicide leads only need that SR up to have made their lead useful. Most teams nowadays don't even need Stealth Rock to dominate offensively, and many defensive teams have adapted to Taunt leads and don't even rely on a lead SRer anymore. If he gets SR up and then you take him out with kingdra, now you just opened the door for Salamence to come in, Intimidate and probably get a free KO on your team. I personally view being up 6 - 5+sr from the start as an advantage, but in some cases it can really hurt (like if they have a good team matchup). I wouldn't dismiss it as easily as the OP does, although I see where he's coming from.

Stealth Rock isn't momentum on every team, although it is usually nice to have.

This is a pretty nice discussion thread for a new user. Even if the OP could use a bit of work youre setting a good example for the rest of this forum.

 

[zarator]

First of all, I think that the identification between "suicide lead" and "SR lead" is pretty obsolete. Things like Metagross - as Veedrock pointed out -, Jirachi - which can be a Scarf variant, a Trick Room lead, a standard Sr lead... just to let you know not all SR lead are obvious - or Swampert - personally my favorite since it can come later to act as a wall, set up SR if it didnt at the start unlike Suicide leads, and even set up SR multiple times if needed - are all examples that shows how lead with a swift Stealth Rock is a great way to start, whatever your team is.

If your team is offensive, SR comes to turn a lot of 3HKO and 2HKO into 2HKO and 1HKO respectively. If you are defensive they punish switches like very little else. The point is: while your Kingdra can be neat, it will rarely pay you off reliably like putting SR up early in the game.

Now, lets stop with the mini-rant^^ About the lead philosophy, I always have thought the lead must be a team player. What I mean is the following. While something like Yanmega, Gyarados and the likes can set-up the momentum early in the match, they do very little for their team, especially if they are met with a swift and reliable answer or if they have a bad matchup at the lead. Something like Jirachi or Swampert, on the other way, even if they can have more or less problems with different leads (Swampert, for example, can face with ease most Metagross and Jirachi, but could struggle against many variants of Azelf, even if they dont have GK), will rarely let you down. I mean, they could take more or less damage, they could have to switch out and back again later, but they rarely do not get the work they are tailored for done.

And, most importantly, they don't require godly prediction to work. This is not the simple whine of a mediocre player. Even if you are a helluva good battler, you can't predict everything. Plain and simple. This is why things like Mixed Magmortar do not work well as a wallbreaker and your Kingdra is not that great of a lead. They can work, yes, but you are assuming that you are predicting to perfection. Ok, you could say me: wtf, even if I play SR I must predict Taunt, Encore etc. But predicting that kind of things imply a lot less risk than your example. If your prediction is wrong, you are 90% screwed - correct me if I'm wrong. If my prediction is wrong, then what?
Lets assume - just since this is the case I'm most familiar with - that I lead with Swampert. And assume also the following points:
- The opponent does not have a Grass attack (which is almost always the case barring Roserades and some Infernapes)
- The opponent has one of the following moves to screw my setup (I simply chose the most common): Taunt, Encore, Trick.
Then we have 3 possibilities:
1) I have been Taunted. So, I either have to switch to setup SR later - not that difficult with Swampert great defenses. Things like Tyranitars, Scizors and Metagross are all good opportunities to come back and set up SR;
2) I have been encored and now I have to switch. Well, who cares? I setup SR, now I can switch a counter and deal with the other lead. Swampert can always do its walling job later.
3) I have been Trickscarfed. It is really that bad? Not at all, if I have SR + 3 attacks. Since it is a tank and not a true wall, Swampert does not need to switch between attacks like Bronzong or Blissey. And the Speed bost could come in handy when facing things like Tyranitar which I can now outspeed.

So, just to sum up, SR is a good strategy, but whichever strategy you are going to choose, it must not require hard prediction. Reliability rewards more than anything else in the long run.

 

[Run]

All great points! I agree that stealth rock is momentum and extremely useful, which is why I make sure to get it up. My point is that it's not the end of the world if it doesn't go up in turn 1. Is there a way that mindset might be holding us back rather than pushing us forward? I can't claim that my setup is the best and never gets beat because there are things I can't always handle.

Veedrock's second point about A beating B and so on is why you can't play your lead as a single pokemon all the time, having a backup plan to get yourself setup and still gaining momentum is just good strategy.

Unorthodox leads are hard to prepare for, which is why flexibility is important! I think you guys misunderstand my use of flexibiliy, you can have reliablility and flexibility. The swampert analysis was a great example of those two things together, regardless of the situation, it seems to come out without really hurting the team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@On Stealth Rock and Suicide Leads-- In regards to Stealth Rock, it certainly is favorable to have it up, but I have to say that there is a limit to which it's worth it to get it up. While some leads breeze right past each other (Rain Crobat and D-Screen Azelf going on their own set-up missions while ignoring each other), for the most part we think in terms of whether one lead "beats" another lead. To some point, I'd agree with the OP that just because your Aerodactyle got SR up doesn't mean it "won."

Though that worth has a lot to do with the other 11 pokemon involved with the match (whether there are a lot of rock weaks, whether a lot of switches will be forced), in general, I'd say this:

-I consider a Suicide Lead to have lost if all 6 of the enemy pokes are largely in tact, and SR was the only thing it got up.

To me, a suicide lead is fine, but it's got to accomplish more than just getting up SR. Whether that be seriously weakening the other lead or setting up other assets like Screens, it's got to do more than just get SR up, because starting at 6 v. 5 + SR is pretty crappy. Most Suicide leads do have ways of going past just the mission to get up SR (except Aero, who imo is pretty crappy unless the enemy team is very Rock/Ground weak).

Inversely, if my lead kills the enemy lead while staying largely intact (or at least still capable of putting out more hurt), I consider that a win if he only got SR up. Of course the "winner" is the one who wins the whole battle.

 

[zarator]

@On Stealth Rock and Suicide Leads-- In regards to Stealth Rock, it certainly is favorable to have it up, but I have to say that there is a limit to which it's worth it to get it up. While some leads breeze right past each other (Rain Crobat and D-Screen Azelf going on their own set-up missions while ignoring each other), for the most part we think in terms of whether one lead "beats" another lead. To some point, I'd agree with the OP that just because your Aerodactyle got SR up doesn't mean it "won."

Though that worth has a lot to do with the other 11 pokemon involved with the match (whether there are a lot of rock weaks, whether a lot of switches will be forced), in general, I'd say this:

-I consider a Suicide Lead to have lost if all 6 of the enemy pokes are largely in tact, and SR was the only thing it got up.

To me, a suicide lead is fine, but it's got to accomplish more than just getting up SR. Whether that be seriously weakening the other lead or setting up other assets like Screens, it's got to do more than just get SR up, because starting at 6 v. 5 + SR is pretty crappy. Most Suicide leads do have ways of going past just the mission to get up SR (except Aero, who imo is pretty crappy unless the enemy team is very Rock/Ground weak).

Inversely, if my lead kills the enemy lead while staying largely intact (or at least still capable of putting out more hurt), I consider that a win if he only got SR up. Of course the "winner" is the one who wins the whole battle.

I think this is the reason why most suicide leads are considered somehow "surpassed". I mean, why I should use Aerodactyl and sacrifice it when Swampert or Jirachi can do the same job unscathed? The only suicide lead I would recommend is Azelf, for the same reason I think Jirachi is one of the best leads available.
While most leads have different set possibilities - just think to Metagross - most pokémon are very predictable when they lead. Metagross himself, for example, have a very standard set for the lead spot. Jirachi on the contrary, has at least five distinct lead sets: the Trickscarf, the standard SR, the Trick Roomer, the Weather setupper and (rare but still there) the Gravity user. If you also think that these sets can be tweaked a lot, you have a very unpredictable lead in your hands. Heck, you could even build multiple teams on Shoddybattle, all with Jirachi leads, and look at your opponent hopelessly try to predict which kind of Jirachi is he facing (this obviously is assuming you use a different Jirachi for each team).

To sum it up, I think the lead should either be able to reliably accomplish the task or should be unpredictable enough to surprise a bit the opponent.
In the first instance, reliability is achieved both tweaking a bit the lead to react to common threats (my Swampert for example run HP Electric since a lot of people see it as Gyara setup fodder) or to have good answers waiting in the wings (such as a Vaporeon happily waiting the atrocious snake to show its face).
On the contrary, unpredictability depends a lot more on the lead himself. Not only for the choice of the Pokémon himself (An effective Swampert lead set will probably not differ that much from the standard SR lead) but also for the moves you pick up. Things like Jirachi or Infernape have enough possibilities to surprise unsuspecting opponents (like that happy Swampert Grass Knotted to death... poor Swampy^^) while still retaining their effectiveness.

 

[Chou Toshio]

"waiting in the wings" is a good plan. No lead can beat everything, but you want something that can reliably achieve its goals against most opponents.

For instance the aforementioned Gyara is a really good lead, Intimidating opponents to get early advantage and capable of beating most other enemies in to the ground, especially with teammate support

With a teammate like Tyranitar, it can beat Azelf to its focus sash, and then switch TTar in to finish it with sand (explosion also does laughable damage to ttar after intimidate). With Scarf-Flygon in the wings, it takes aero out without even needing to get hit by Stone Edge (first turn gyara hits, 2nd turn switch to flygon, resist edge-quake and u-turns it to death). EQ leaves Metagross and Jirachi in pain, and with Jolly it can outrun all non-scarf heatran/metagross/breloom and smeargle and taunt or smack them hard. As long as its attacking, it doesn't even really give a damn about being tricked scarf. Against enemy pert/bronzong/hippo it cripples them with Taunt/Intimidate, and even if they have the random electric attack to take Gyara down, Taunt/Intimidate leaves them as set-up fodder to other teammates.

IE, Gyara's a nice example of a lead who perhaps, doesn't always completely shut the enemy down, but it can screw with most enemy leads.

 

[TAY]

All great points! I agree that stealth rock is momentum and extremely useful, which is why I make sure to get it up. My point is that it's not the end of the world if it doesn't go up in turn 1. Is there a way that mindset might be holding us back rather than pushing us forward? I can't claim that my setup is the best and never gets beat because there are things I can't always handle.

While it cartainly isn't "the end of the world" if SR doesn't go up on turn 1, I would day that a turn 1 or 2 SR use is much more beneficial than using those turns to scout. This is especially true since - just like using SR - it isn't a huge deal whether you scout at the beginning or at the end of the match (and "scouting" is something that can be done with attacks; you do not have to resort to odd plays like double yawning).

SR is still a huge part of the game for both offensive and defensive teams, making things such as Salamence and Gyarados less threatening and enabling OHKOs that simply weren't possible before. This also isn't brought up much, but the easy access to SR makes U-turn one of the most powerful moves in the game, since you can both deal damage and take the initiative once again. Knowing this, it seems ridiculous to me that you would use a lead which both cannot stop Stealth Rock and cannot prevent your opponent from using it. This may seem closed-minded, but I cannot see any point in using a lead which cannot accomplish at least one of those things consistently. Stealth Rock is so powerful and so easy to use and so common that I see no excuse for neither using it nor preventing it with your lead.

Unorthodox leads are hard to prepare for, which is why flexibility is important! I think you guys misunderstand my use of flexibiliy, you can have reliablility and flexibility. The swampert analysis was a great example of those two things together, regardless of the situation, it seems to come out without really hurting the team.

I completely disagree with the entire idea of flexibility. It is totally irrelevant, and even detrimental. Here is why:

Unorthodox leads aren't just hard to prepare for, they are impossible to prepare for. This does not mean that it is impossible to pick an effective lead - on the contrary, it makes the selection process significantly easier. Since you know that you have no chance of preparing for screwy, gimmicky leads, the best choice is to not prepare your lead for them at all. Assuming your team is capable of dealing with all relevant threats in some way, you should easily be able to beat this lead with the rest of your team. Even attempting to prepare for some of the endless number of unorthodox lead possibilities will likely make your lead suffer against a more common foe, and will undoubtedly open you up to additional "gimmick" leads as well (I put that in quotes because the vast majority of leads are gimmicks anyway, or at least started out that way).


This applies to dealing with common leads as well: If your lead can't deal with Infernape, then who cares? You already have Latias on your team. Having trouble with Metagross? Why even bother taking it into account if you have Skarmory to set up on it anyway. If you can make eliminations like this based on your team, you can easily design a lead to take out only the common leads that it needs to. This process makes it much easier to select and create an effective lead, since it only needs to beat certain other common leads that your team would be annoyed by.

 

[Thorns]

Well things like LeadCario beats a lot of common leads, so anti-leads! IMO the best anti-leads are ones that beat at least 8/10 of the top leads, which is why a lot of gimmick sets fail (see Tyranitar). Having SR on a lead is the easiest way to set it up, but you have to look at your team and ask yourself 'Can I sacrifice SR on my lead? Do I have another Pokemon that can set up SR reliably?'

 

[zarator]

I dont like Anti-leads that much. Yes, they can give you momentum, but chances are that:
1) The opponent have something to deal with your anti-lead anyway, so if I send my Tentacruel into your anti-lead Lucario to get Toxic Spikes up, I haven't lost the momentum so much (dont start the "then I send X" ping-pong please; of course, you will have a Tenta answer waiting in the wings, but that's beyond my main point)
2) Most importantly, you should focus on getting your plan early on rather than trying to stop the opponent from doing so. I'd rather prefer, in most situations, to have SR up on both sides than to not have it up at all.
3) While a good number of SR leads - Jirachi, Swampert, Heatran, Metagross, Hippowdon... - can come in later to do something else, most Anti-lead Pokèmon are of little utility in mid- and late-game.

So, my conclusion is: yes, Anti-leads can be effective, but I'd prefer at "worst" a semi-anti-lead like Infernape, which can also do something else like put SR up, than a pure Anti-lead like Weavile.

 

[noob3]

Leading is way too complicated, I think every single pokemon in the game can be a fantastic lead. When you actually look at all the combinations of useable leads, it's like 1 million pokemon with all the move/item combinations :0

And then you take anti-leads into account.. *vomits*

 

[Immortal Bushi]

About the lead philosophy, I always have thought the lead must be a team player. What I mean is the following. While something like Yanmega, Gyarados and the likes can set-up the momentum early in the match, they do very little for their team, especially if they are met with a swift and reliable answer or if they have a bad matchup at the lead. Something like Jirachi or Swampert, on the other way, even if they can have more or less problems with different leads (Swampert, for example, can face with ease most Metagross and Jirachi, but could struggle against many variants of Azelf, even if they dont have GK), will rarely let you down. I mean, they could take more or less damage, they could have to switch out and back again later, but they rarely do not get the work they are tailored for done.

And, most importantly, they don't require godly prediction to work. This is not the simple whine of a mediocre player. Even if you are a helluva good battler, you can't predict everything. Plain and simple. This is why things like Mixed Magmortar do not work well as a wallbreaker and your Kingdra is not that great of a lead. They can work, yes, but you are assuming that you are predicting to perfection. Ok, you could say me: wtf, even if I play SR I must predict Taunt, Encore etc. But predicting that kind of things imply a lot less risk than your example. If your prediction is wrong, you are 90% screwed - correct me if I'm wrong. If my prediction is wrong, then what?
Lets assume - just since this is the case I'm most familiar with - that I lead with Swampert. And assume also the following points:
- The opponent does not have a Grass attack (which is almost always the case barring Roserades and some Infernapes)
- The opponent has one of the following moves to screw my setup (I simply chose the most common): Taunt, Encore, Trick.
Then we have 3 possibilities:
1) I have been Taunted. So, I either have to switch to setup SR later - not that difficult with Swampert great defenses. Things like Tyranitars, Scizors and Metagross are all good opportunities to come back and set up SR;
2) I have been encored and now I have to switch. Well, who cares? I setup SR, now I can switch a counter and deal with the other lead. Swampert can always do its walling job later.
3) I have been Trickscarfed. It is really that bad? Not at all, if I have SR + 3 attacks. Since it is a tank and not a true wall, Swampert does not need to switch between attacks like Bronzong or Blissey. And the Speed bost could come in handy when facing things like Tyranitar which I can now outspeed.

So, just to sum up, SR is a good strategy, but whichever strategy you are going to choose, it must not require hard prediction. Reliability rewards more than anything else in the long run.

This is a great point it think. The team I'm using now has the unorthodox lead of Regirock. He can set up stealth rock, deal massive damage to leads such as azlef, aero, and infernape, toxic defensive leads like swampert and Hippo, and can explode to almost get a free kill(he also laughs at other explosions). Regirock is a good team player and is unorthodox that can deal with many leads.

But like all leads, he's not invicible, and I need him as a viable physical tank later in the game and will not hesitate to switch him out to another matchup in the early game.

 

[TAY]

Well things like LeadCario beats a lot of common leads, so anti-leads! IMO the best anti-leads are ones that beat at least 8/10 of the top leads, which is why a lot of gimmick sets fail (see Tyranitar). Having SR on a lead is the easiest way to set it up, but you have to look at your team and ask yourself 'Can I sacrifice SR on my lead? Do I have another Pokemon that can set up SR reliably?'

The word "beats" is very misleading. It "beats" Azelf in the sense that it will KO it without taking damage, but quite a few teams use Azelf just to get up rocks anyway (Exploding is more like icing on the cake than a main dish). Let's face it - Azelf and Metagross are able to KO something wih Explosion in probably fewer than 1/3 of their matches, just because people have seen it so often. Clearly these are teams that are very familiar with starting the game at 5-6 with Stealth Rock down and taking advantage of the situation. So when you say that Lucario "beats" Azelf, that certainly is not going to convince me that I was wrong in saying:

I cannot see any point in using a lead which cannot accomplish at least one of [setting up SR and stopping the opponent's SR] consistently.

If it does not prevent or remove Stealth Rock, then in my opinion the "anti-lead" is a failure.


P.S. Metagross, Infernape, Aerodactyl, Bronzong, and some other leads are in the same position as Azelf here.

 

[Run]

I think people are still stuck in the mindset that the lead needs to be a single pokemon. Yes you can get up SR right away and die then go to your best counter. I just think there are better strategies out there. I still get SR up relatively early but accomplish a lot more damage, information gathering, and general momentum in the same amount of time.

I normally make 1 switch to swampert before getting SR up. That is 106% damage (if I let Kingdra die) compared to what is normally 2 incapacitated (either fatally wounded or sleeping) pokemon while they are left reacting to my actions rather than accomplishing their strategy.

I completely disagree that scouting can be done anytime during the match. It is much more valuable done early. The more you know about your opponents team, the more likely you will be able to come up with a plan on beating it. You know what the threats are and who you might have to save.

I don't want this to be about my Kingdra lead. You can trust me that my opening works for me, I've been using it since platinum came out. The idea is that your opening should have strategy to it, not just blind setup. SR is a great strategy, I have no intention of downplaying it... but can we take it a step further and try to work our lead into working our teams overall strategy? It shouldn't be a lead + 5 pokemon. The lead should be a part of the team and its synergy, even if its role is to be expendable. If you have explosion on your lead, make sure you use it when it makes sense, not just because SR is down. It might just so happen that you should explode on turn 2.

Again, I want to reitterate I'm not trying to obliterate our current leads and change the whole metagame as we know it, I'm just trying to help us better understand and define what a lead should accomplish as it relates to the rest of your team. Most leads right now are doing a fine job when used correctly.

 

[Stathakis]

now, I'm in agreement with you talking about how leads should build momentum and whatnot. I agree with your general principles, but I disagree with some of the restrictions you have laid out. let's take offensive teams for example. if I have a taunt/sr/dualscreens azelf, my goal is to keep enemy sr off, get my own sr up, and maybe get up a screen or two. in the meantime, my opponent kills off azelf. I am satisfied with this situation, but you say that I should not be. you say that a lead should gain you the momentum, help your strategy. but the sr suicide lead already does that!

should my opponent kill off azelf, I have gotten my sr up, kept off enemy sr, and maybe even gotten up a screen. I now have a free turn to switch to any pokemon on my team. let's say my whole team is setup sweepers, and I win games by simply getting this early game free turn and killing things until I die, then rinsing and repeating from the free turn. azelf has essentially won me the game without having to guess or predict or make any risky moves. by allowing azelf to just die, I win the game. you say I have no momentum, but in reality I have nothing but momentum. I have a free turn and maybe even screens for christs sake! the lead has me set for the long term by setting sr and keeping off enemy sr. he also helps in the short term by getting a free switch and maybe even screens. how has the lead not helped me?

 

[Staraptor Call]

Leading is way too complicated, I think every single pokemon in the game can be a fantastic lead. When you actually look at all the combinations of useable leads, it's like 1 million pokemon with all the move/item combinations :0

And then you take anti-leads into account.. *vomits*

What does this say about just what lead to use, if there are so many possible choices? Many Pokemon aren't good leads at all, because they set up nothing very useful and don't stop any of the common leads.

Have fun with your Unown lead.

 

[diinbong]

I guess I should post in here since I've been thinking about this a lot since Lucario.

First of all, your point about leads needing the ability to be flexible and not predictable, though quite valid in my personal experience, is an untrue statement. The more important and more prized aspect of a lead is its reliability. Your Kingdra might be able to shuffle my team every once-in-a-while, but my Azelf can always get Stealth Rock up. People use these leads because of their effiency; you know my Aerodactyl is just going to set up Stealth Rock, but what are you going to do about it? Notice how the top leads are all specifically chosen for their general efficiency; bulky ones like Bronzong, Hippowdon, Metagross, and Swampert will very rarely miss a Stealth Rock or Screen, as will Azelf or Infernape or Aerodactyl. Leads like DD Kingdra will never be outrulingly popular or useful because they lack the proper undeviating strategy that the currently used leads do.

The main debate here seems to be - Which is more valuable, getting Stealth Rock up, or being at a 5-6 advantage?

 

[adman2]

The problem with bulkier leads is that they are easily Taunted by common leads such as Azelf and Aerodactyl, or Tricked. As an earlier poster said, reliability is key in a lead. Getting your Stealth Rock, screens, or weather quickly is a priority for many teams.

If you're going for an anti-lead, make sure it can either break through a Focus Sash or doesn't mind a Choice Scarf.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What I mean is the following. While something like Yanmega, Gyarados and the likes can set-up the momentum early in the match, they do very little for their team, especially if they are met with a swift and reliable answer or if they have a bad matchup at the lead.

Missed this. Yanmega I get what you're saying, but how the hell is Gyara not a team player? Intimidate is probably one of the best abilities an offensive team could ask for in a lead, nabbing immediate advantage without even using a move!

And what advantage it is-- it means that even if Gyara is forced out, whatever teammate follows it is almost guaranteed to have an easier time because Gyara was there. Azelf, Jirachi, Aerodactyle, Swampert, Bronzong, Ambipom, Weavile, Mamoswine, Breloom and more are badly crippled IMMEDIATELY just because Gyara led off. Baton pass leads like Zapdos and Ninjask also find themselves in a difficult position as suddenly those boosts they're looking to pass are a lot less relevent. On a team without ridiculously powered defensive stats, intimidate can make all the difference in the game's momentum.

Gyara can't set up SR, but it can stop all the slower leads (Smeargle, Heatran, Metagross, Swampert, Hippowdon, Bronzong, breloom etc. etc.) from doing it (or anything else), and can bash all the faster ones into the ground (can bash a bunch of the slower ones into the ground too).

Moreover, if a poke like Gyara or Yanmega can lead off the battle, it's SR weakness becomes a lot less relevent, making the opponents time to use the move that much less meaningful. The threat of massive attacks and a possible boosted sweep causes chaos, forces switches, and can bring even more momentum to your side.

I'd doubt Gyara's usefulness as a lead on a defensive team, but on an offensive one, I doubt there are many leads who are better, or are better team-players.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

LO Mamoswine is a pretty sick lead for me so far, as it basically comes out of every big lead matchup easy mode, outspeeding junk like Heatran and Metagross and OHKOing with EQ, surviving Jirachi's Iron Head and OHKOing, 2KOing Azelf and Aerodactyl with Ice Fang + Ice Shard. Less defensive Swampert is 2KOed, more defensive ones get SR and then are forced to switch out against a full HP Mamoswine, meaning I get my SR up and dent one of their major walls (making it easier for ddtar to sweep). It only loses to Scarfed Heatran and Infernape, and even then I can still potentially win those matchups with good switching or setting up of DDTar / Salamence.

 

[zocho]

this is a bloody brilliant topic, i learned an incredible amount just reading through everyone's posts.

as i am new to both smogon and competitive battling, creating a decent team was super difficult, and selecting a lead the hardest thing to do. my tutor told me that for an offensive team, the most important thing a lead could do was set up SR. metagross seemed pretty sturdy and reliable, so i chose him. so far it's been great, with the exception of offensive setup leads (like gyarados, salamence, lucario and kingdra) and faster taunt leads. i run stealth rock / bullet punch / earthquake / explosion, with max speed and attack and occa berry. max speed catches some people off guard, and max attack makes sure that explosion is gonna hit hard. i have bullet punch over meteor mash so he can still be semi-useful later in the match, where he could potentially outspeed and revenge kill something.

what intrigues me though is choutoshio's earlier suggestion of a gyara lead on an offensive team, he can't set up SR but it sounds like it could shut down a lot of other leads, pave the way for my sweepers to come in with intimidate, and even possibly start a sweep itself with dd?

mamoswine is an interesting idea. as long as he could survive common lead attacks like fire blast or meteor mash he could come out on top. as an inexperienced battler though i think his frailty and large number of weaknesses scare me a bit. he could also come in later as a priority check to dragons like mence or flygon with ice shard.

swampert definitely makes a good lead with his high defense and good typing. i'm not sure what a good lead moveset would be though...a stallish one or a more offensive one? STAB eq could definitely put a hurting on steel leads like metagross and jirachi, and a swampert with roar could take a boosted hit from an offensive lead and phaze it out. and, like someone mentioned before, with its high defenses and lefties it could come back in later to soak up more hits if anything else.

oh, and funny story. one time a gengar switched into my lead azelf, predicting explosion, but i happened to select psychic and OHKOd it. good times.

 

[LoveDensity]

Anyone want to use Smeargle Spiker Lead xD. I've been using it for the longgesst time and fits every category that Run mentions as an "effective lead." It Anti-Leads, sets up a strategy, fuk up shiet and it can also SUICIDE! I disagree that Gyarados leads can stop the Spiking Smeargle unless it works to risk running Jolly and Taunt. It loses coverage vs other things.

Like some people already said, the philosophy of Suicide Leads are not overrated. Stealth Rock is one of the most breaking moves in the game. That it doesn't hurt to set it up early with a suicidal lead and deal some damage to your opponent's switch in. I agree that Bulky leads are the current best leads as most of these can beat these suicide leads making it less popular and effective. But, so many teams(offensive mainly,) use suicide leads effectively to set up a strategy for their their team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

this is a bloody brilliant topic, i learned an incredible amount just reading through everyone's posts.

as i am new to both smogon and competitive battling, creating a decent team was super difficult, and selecting a lead the hardest thing to do. my tutor told me that for an offensive team, the most important thing a lead could do was set up SR. metagross seemed pretty sturdy and reliable, so i chose him. so far it's been great, with the exception of offensive setup leads (like gyarados, salamence, lucario and kingdra) and faster taunt leads. i run stealth rock / bullet punch / earthquake / explosion, with max speed and attack and occa berry. max speed catches some people off guard, and max attack makes sure that explosion is gonna hit hard. i have bullet punch over meteor mash so he can still be semi-useful later in the match, where he could potentially outspeed and revenge kill something.

what intrigues me though is choutoshio's earlier suggestion of a gyara lead on an offensive team, he can't set up SR but it sounds like it could shut down a lot of other leads, pave the way for my sweepers to come in with intimidate, and even possibly start a sweep itself with dd?

mamoswine is an interesting idea. as long as he could survive common lead attacks like fire blast or meteor mash he could come out on top. as an inexperienced battler though i think his frailty and large number of weaknesses scare me a bit. he could also come in later as a priority check to dragons like mence or flygon with ice shard.

swampert definitely makes a good lead with his high defense and good typing. i'm not sure what a good lead moveset would be though...a stallish one or a more offensive one? STAB eq could definitely put a hurting on steel leads like metagross and jirachi, and a swampert with roar could take a boosted hit from an offensive lead and phaze it out. and, like someone mentioned before, with its high defenses and lefties it could come back in later to soak up more hits if anything else.

oh, and funny story. one time a gengar switched into my lead azelf, predicting explosion, but i happened to select psychic and OHKOd it. good times.

You'll be surprised how often Jolteon, Gengar, Zapdos and Rotom often switch straight into gyara (the opponent fearing DD set up) only to eat a full power waterfall, getting severely hurt or KO'd outright. Even starmie and Latias don't particularly enjoy getting nailed by it.

Anyway, from my experience, setting up SR is not that important for certain types of offensive teams. For those looking to set up sweepers like Empoleon or DD Salamence, setting up SR is important because of the need to improve the chances for the 1 sweeper to keep sweeping. From my experience though, when the team really is 6 offensive pokemon looking to keep the momentum up, bashing "whatever" might come in with powerful moves like Draco Meteor, Overheat or choiced moved. In the context of that type of team, SR becomes somewhat less important, because you're looking to punish switch ins with huge ass attacks anyway. Also the biggest obstacles to such a team are bulky water pokemon, not fliers like Zapdos or Salamence.

I'm not saying SR isn't important to set up, but for me at least it's definitely not my #1 priority.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

mamoswine is an interesting idea. as long as he could survive common lead attacks like fire blast or meteor mash he could come out on top. as an inexperienced battler though i think his frailty and large number of weaknesses scare me a bit. he could also come in later as a priority check to dragons like mence or flygon with ice shard.

Mamo is not frail at all. 110 / 80 / 60 is pretty great when it comes to defenses for a lead, 130 attack is fantastic, and 80 speed is enough to outspeed Metagross and Heatran. The only leads it really loses to are... Infernape, Scarfed (xxx), some Jirachi.