Learning the Metagame (Uber RMT)

Imran

Imran

is a Team Rater Alumnus
OK, so hello again Smogon. Today I delved headfirst into the Uber metagame, in order to learn it will enough to start rating Uber RMTs, anyway I built this team and spent the morning testing it, so now I am going to proudly display it to you guys, so that you can show me what I am currently doing wrong in this metagame. This is mostly theorymon, but 15 or so battles on the ladder has pointing out to me some probelms that I have been having and hopefully you guys have been able to sort this out for me =D Heres the team at a glance:

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So the plan is really rather simple, and it is just to dissrupt the opponants Plans, this starts with my Deoxys lead, and continues through all of my mons, I hope to sweep with RP Groudon at the end, but sometimes it end up with Palkia or Garchomp as well, so its reasonably versatile, either way rate away. And yes I know I have 4 Choiced mons on this team, dont tell me that unless you can give reasonable reasoning as to why that is a bad idea >_>

The Mons

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Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Crunch
- Fire Blast

Tyranitar leads off my team beats ScarfRai leads and such like so thatll be cool, I'm a little worried about the EV spread and the nature seeing as I'm carrying Fire Blast so if someone else jhas a better suggestion I will be happy to go with it, hopefully this will buy me a free turn against Scarf Rai and beat Deoxys leads, not much more to say about this, should be slower than Kyogre to so that it doesn't get to set up it's Rain Hurrah, might make Palkia work even worse, I will get around to testing this.

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Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 Spe
Bold nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Toxic
- Reflect
- Ice Beam
- Roost

Patches up DDQuaza and stuff so that should be fine again will get round to testing it and give more in depth comments later, I have to go in a sec. Basically outspeeds DDRay and helps me to beat SD Don and stuff like that. Toxic is to help me stall out annoying stuff liek other Lugia and Giratina and such like. Again pretty neat and sorry I cant add much more indeapth comments at the moment.

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Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spacial Rend
- Surf
- Thunder
- Aura Sphere

Scarf Palkia is here as a switch in to Specs Kyogre, well that was why I originally chose it, it has also been pretty solid for me and I have found runing two scarfed dragons to be pretty cool and doesn't work too badly. Again I was thinking of adding a little more bulk on here to allow me to take a little less from Kyogre but again, I'm not sure. Spacial rend kills things like DDQuaza, Thunder owns Kyogre and likes to cripple switch ins with paralysis. Aura Sphere is for BU Dialga which can give me a little hurt sometimes. Not much more to say here, this is pretty standard.

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Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 112 HP/252 Atk/20 Def/124 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge

My main set up Sweeper, likes to come in on stuff like CB Scizor and set up, this works quite well with Deoxys who I will happily sacrifice to pull off a sweep. I didnt go with Fire Blast as I can usually power through Scizor / Forry with my other POkes and TBH they haven't been that much of a probelm through testing, although I am yet to meet a Skarm who could be a problem to this team, so I might consider reaplcing it, but DClaw has been very useful to me as Stone Edges accuracy put me off a little. I have been surprised at how easily this thing powers through teams if i do manage to get my Polish off, and even if he isnt sweeping through teams, he is nice and bulky and can often take down another mon before being KOd himself. Again a standard but one that I feel fits well on my team and has had good sucess.

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Bronzong @ Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/84 Atk/80 Def/92 SDef
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Trick
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock

My main answer to anything stuck in Outrage, although I haven't had to use him too much for that purpose, Trick Brace is an awesome strategy even in Ubers and allows some of my mons to do their job even better (especially Don if he doesn't manage to pull off a polish), Explosion in case I am low on health and is very useful in general as I havn't seen that many Giratina around to block it, Gyro Ball hits things stuck in outrage hard and SR is always useful right. I used to have SR on Garchomp to scout its counters and then run, but I replaced it with Fire Blast as I hardly ever got my rocks up, so I replaced EQ on this guy with SR which has helped so far, and I'm definately going to keep it that way around.

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Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 124 Spe / 132 SpD
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Has been very useful for me, U-Turn to scout is nice especially with the abundance of Psychic types in the Metagame, Bullet Punch finishes things off well, Super Power hits random things ive seen flying around like Registeel, heatran and Tyranitar, Pursuit kills all deoxys that might be troubling to me. This guy is simple yet effective and I have enjoyed using him so far, Bullet Punch is also useful for anything stuck in outrage. Basically insurance against Deoxys and random things like Rayquaza that need revenge killing, he has served me well.

Conclusion

So there is the team, started off as an "anti-metagame" team that I seem to find easiest to start with, it helps me gain an understanding of what the main threats are and how to beat them, but like I said I'm effectivly a noob in this area lol so any of your suggestions will be very welcome. Please make sure you have read the RMT rules before posting if you are going to suggest something please post first a reason and then a solution, so I can reason with you to come to a good answer ;) but if you've got this far thanks for reading and I hope you can help me out a bit =D

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Major threats have been:

Groudon - If the sun is out (which it logically must be) then Palkia cant do "great" against it, I can play around it with Bullet Punch and Bronzongs Explosion, but it generally goes at the sacrifice of at least one pokemon. If it leads Doexys is also in trouble as HP Fire does about 40%

I was once swept by a Ho-Oh under the sun :pirate: it was quite embarrasin, but with Palkia and Chomp around I'm not too worried, is was stupic enough to sacrifice them earlier :( SR on Zong should make this less of a problem though =D

I can imagine that Skarmory might give me a hard time, but I haven't faced one yet

Same goes for Shedinja who I saw once, I was able to pseudo trap it with Scizor but nothing can really switch in safely and then damage it, I have to sacrifice Scizor to a WoW if i want to safely remove it, but now with SR on Bronzong that shouldnt be a problem
 
First thing I notice straight out is the 4 choice pokemon. Sometimes that isn't bad but look at the other 2; Bronzong and Groudon. Bronzong can't do much besides stop an Outraging Pokemon and Groudon requires set up to sweep.

Using 4 choice Pokemon enables the opponent to get a free turn pretty much whenever they switch into a resisted attack which is deadly in ubers. For example, suppose a Groudon switches into your Deoxys' Thunder/Garchomp's Stone Edge/Palkia's Thunder/Scizor's Pursuit, it could get a Rock Polish in while you switch, outspeed everything then with a moveset like Dragon Claw/Fire Punch/Earthquake with Life Orb, it will proceed to kill everything. LO Dragon Claw with Max Attack is a most probable OHKO on Palkia and Garchomp, Fire Punch knocks Scizor and Bronzong around and EQ OHKOs Deoxys and does quite a bit to Groundon, but not a OHKO (not that you are doing anything back but...).

Straight our I see Garchomp as replaceable. TBH from my extensive knowledge of Ubers, Palkia and Dialga are the superior Scarf Dragons and rightfully so; they can revenge kill much more than Garchomp. I suggest you change Garchomp into a Lugia to add a lot more bulk physically to your team, and especially to combat that nasty-yet-not-too-bad Rayquaza weakness you have. And of course to kill Groudon. I would go with:

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/8 Def/248 Spd
Bold nature
• Reflect
• Whirlwind
• Roost
• Ice Beam

This outspeeds SDRayquaza and kills it with Ice Beam. However, DDLO Rayquaza can still deal some pretty heavy damage to this but Palkia is a good revenge killer for that. However you may wanna add a little bit of bulk? I don't know a specific EV Spread but i'm sure just a little bit of HP will do.

I also like the idea of having Spikes on this team as it makes a Groundon's job so much easier. I don't really like ScarfDeoxys-F as a lead, I much prefer the Spiking suicide version of Deoxys-S as it provides a lot more support, especially for this sort of team:

Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash
Jolly - 252 Speed/252 Attack/6 Def
-Extremespeed
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Superpower

It can Taunt other Deoxys spiking leads, then proceed to set up itself. If you put Stealth rock on this over Superpower, you can free up Bronzong and make it into a Dual Screener with something like 252HP/252 Sp.Defence/6 Attack with a Sassy Nature. Screens is a great technique in Ubers as lots of things can become set up bait as stuff can turn from 2HKOs to 3HKOs. It makes it a lot easier for your Groudon to set up too.

-GEC
 
I'm not convinced on the effectiveness of your lead.

1. Opposing lead Deoxys-A/S with Focus Sash setup Stealth Rock and KO you if they have ExtremeSpeed (you can then proceed to kill with Scizor, but if you predict incorrectly and Bullet Punch on a switch or Pursuit on a Hidden Power Fire, your opponent can possibly get a layer of Spikes up later in the game or you just lost Scizor).

2. Being locked into a move is very detrimental early in the game. If you KO said Choice Scarf Darkrai with Superpower, opposing Scizor are free to switch in and Pursuit. The same applies if you're locked into Shadow Ball against other Deoxys-A/S.

If you're looking to beat Choice Scarf Darkrai leads, Lum Berry Tyranitar with Substitute is a decent choice, as most Darkrai won't Focus Blast first turn. Focus Sash Deoxys-A/S leads are beaten with Crunch and Sand Stream. Hell, even Choice Scarf Primeape is effective, forcing Darkrai out with the threat of Close Combat and breaking beating Focus Sash Deoxys-A/S with a U-turn to Scizor.
 
While I am not overly experienced with the uber metagame, I can see a few things. One, you have nothing to absorb status. That means things like Darkrai and Giratina will have a good time sleeping and burning at least one (darkrai) or many (Giratina) members of your team. That will come back to haunt you as with 4 choicers you'll be switching all over the place, allowing burn/poison/entry hazard damage to mount up. Therefore, I suggest the standard Bulk Up Dialga over Palkia. Garchomp is revenging many of the same threats Palkia can, but is hitting them from their weaker defense stat. Palkia is also primarily used with Kyogre. I know that is who you intend to bring him in on, yet you will not be able to spam the boosted Surfs for long with you switching out and having a groudon as your go to sweeper. A heavily Sp. Defense Oriented Bulk Up Dialga will still keep Kyogre at bay and take status.

Dialga @ Leftovers
Careful
Pressure
252 Hp/252 Sp. Defense/6 Attack
Bulk Up
Rest
Sleep Talk
Dragon Claw

The other thing is replacing your lead. Scarf Deoxys-A doesn't seem all that useful after the first turn. Scarf Mewtwo seems a better pick for something that gives you an advantage early game and can come back to pick things off in the mid to late game. Selfdestruct can also open a hole for another of your mons to sweep.

Mewtwo @ Choice Scarf
Hasty
Pressure
40 Attack/252 Sp. Attack/216 Speed
Focus Blast
Shadow Ball
Ice Beam/Trick
Selfdestruct

This should stop many leads. The only question is on the 3rd slot. I recommend testing but i would say ice beam to hit much of the metagame for super effective damage. Trick could stop a set up sweeper or a defensive oriented team so test between the two.

Good Luck with your team.
 
I'm too lazy to do a full rate right now (I'll try to get around to it later tomorrow maybe); but just a quick comment.

There is no reason to run maximum Speed on CB Scizor in ubers. The only thing you are really outrunning in ubers with maximum Speed is Giratina who doesn't give a shit about Scizor anyway. You'd be better off to split the EVs between HP and Special Defense to better be able to switch in on Lati@s Dragon Pulses and such.
 
So uh, hey, I realize something. That isn't the Palkia you should use... eh?

First off, you lack rain to begin with, so you're limiting its uses once Groudon pops its little head out. Second off, you could run Fire Blast > Aura Sphere. It will still do the same to Dialga while knocking Groudon and other Steels into the ground. As for Thunder, I'm unsure if you want it. Outrage can 2HKO most of the time against Kyogre anyway with a Hasty or Naive nature, and in return 2HKOes most Blissey with Stealth Rock 87% of the time (trust me on this one).

Lugia could give this team some trouble. Bronzong can at least Trick Macho Brace, but it seems to be your only solution to it. With Palkia's Thunder cut to 50% if Kyogre is missing and Surf not being boosted, Reflect Lugia will force switches constantly. Deoxys-A can handle the situation, but 1) said Deoxys-A isn't liking the idea to switch into Lugia and 2) it is rather a glass cannon, so if a team packs Scizor, Metagross, Tyranitar, or anything with Pursuit... and if you're locked into a wrong move... well, I think that should explain it.

How to solve this... well, it is rather difficult. The goal of Rock Polish Groudon is to have a lot of Pokemon weakened out, and the removal of threats such as Forretress, Skarmory, and other bulkier Steel-types is important. It is also reliant on Lugia and Giratina having lower health. So the first step to this is adding Stealth Rock. This will help keep switching at bay while helping the opponent's team get weaker over time, thus making Groudon's chances of sweeping higher. The second should be trying to find a Pokemon that can handle Lugia a little better. Scizor can at least dent Lugia if it Roosts, but you need something with a Ghost or Dark-type move. There are two routes: a Choice Band Tyranitar with Crunch, or something like Taunt / Calm Mind Mewtwo. Darkrai also works with Dark Void, but if you put something else to sleep, it's a little harder to get everything going. In other words: you need something that can at least make Lugia set-up bait or something that will keep it away until Stealth Rock knocks it over. Stealth Rock will also make handling Ho-oh a lot easier too.

If you use Taunt / Calm Mind Mewtwo, I highly recommend using Shadow Ball / Flamethrower. The only Pokemon you might have to worry about is Tyranitar, but otherwise this hits many Pokemon in Ubers for neutral or Super Effective. If Kyogre isn't that high of a threat, you can opt for Ice Beam / Flamethrower. Either way, I'd try to use Flamethrower to prevent Scizor from trapping you at all costs.

Hopefully I helped a little bit at least.
 
This isn't an organized rate. This rate is based on the order I realize thins, lol.

Straight off the bat I noticed your team faces problems against the following:
Lugia: Okay. Lugia wall pretty much everybody barring Groudon (who can't switch in on Lugia), and Bronzong (who can't do anything but Trick).

Giratina-O. Has a free switch in on Scarf Quakes/Superpowers, and can probably set up on Bronzong after Brace is removed too (don't quote me on this, though). He Substitutes and a member of your team is pretty much gone. I'm mainly talking about CM/Sub/Thunder/DPulse. CMed Thunder apparently OHKOes your Scizor with Stealth Rock down. No one else is going to enjoy Dragon Pulses.

SDRay can be a grievance as well considering your only option against it is Garchomp who can't swap in on Dragon Claw.

Groudon. Zong can wall Fire attackless RP versions, but Swords Dance Groudon will be very painful. Assuming you've Tricked the brace to something else, Swords Dance Groudon will tear everything apart. It should kill about two guys in your team before dying, if not sweeping, so be very careful.

If you use Taunt / Calm Mind Mewtwo, I highly recommend using Shadow Ball / Flamethrower. The only Pokemon you might have to worry about is Tyranitar, but otherwise this hits many Pokemon in Ubers for neutral or Super Effective.
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I disagree. You're missing out on the hit against Kyogre and Rayquaza which are MUCH larger threats than Scizor. IMO go with Thunder/Ice Beam.

Hmm
IMO Scarf Deoxys-A lead isn't so great, especially on your team. You can nail Darkrai, but you lose to Deoxys-S and Sash Deoxys-A.

Agreeing with Caelum that Scizor doesn't need max Speed in ubers. At absolute maximum you should run 197 (stat) for Shedinjas who could Baton Pass to avoid Pursuit, but it's better off with HP/SDef for Lati@s. DO NOT MAX Scizor's HP. That's asking for Stealth Rock to eat it in 8 turns (and Bad Dreams, Spikes, etc).

At this time I can't decide what would be the best replacements for stuff, so I'll list the counters for each of them

- Groudon: SD Don is covered by Lugia, Kyogre, Celebi, Tangrowth, Skarmory. Keep in mind that the latter three can only do so if Fire Punch/Blast is absent, and Lugia needs to worry about Thunder Wave + SDed Stone Edge so be careful. RPDon is covered by Giratina, Bronzong, Skarmory (without fire move).

- Rayquaza: SDRay is stopped by Lugia, Physical wall Mewtwo, Scarf Dialga. You've covered DDRay well enough with Scizor + Bronzong + Palkia imo.

- Giratina-O: This one can be a bit tough. IF the opponent hasn't set up SR on you, Latias -CAN- take it (that's if you pump EVs into her HP/SDef though because Dragon Pulse does like 60% min to her otherwise). TTar smacks non Aura Sphere versions, and Lugia can sort of harass non Thunder/Shadow Ball versions with Whirlwind (unreliable though). CMBliss is by far its best counter. Dialga can also counter it (not BU versions as CMed Sphere 2HKOes Dialga), but it can still take a whole lot from just switching onto it. Despite this taking Gira-O is not so hard unless you give it multiple free switch ins, which WILL be very annoying. And there isn't that many people using this guy so yeah.

- Lugia can be stopped with Toxic. Kyogre stops Lugia cold for the most part. Without Toxic, Latias can stop it as well.

Well this is my quick reply. If I can put more thought into it at some time later, then I will add more. Otherwise that's all I've got at the moment.
 
I just have one minor suggestion, run Grass Knot over Thunder on Deoxys-f. Shadow Ball still hurts Lugia, but without Grass Knot you are walled by Groudon. Grass Knot hits Kyogre for the same damage as Thunder.
 
Thunder is alright, but again, if Kyogre is absent from the opponent's team, he's left with just Ice Beam for an attack. Like I've said, this is solely my opinion though. With Flamethrower, Mewtwo has something that is very close to a pseudo-STAB option with sunlight, while it's still preventing Trapping. Also, +1 Thunder 219 - 258 (67.38% - 79.38%) on a 325 HP / 240 SpD Scizor. Really, the main reasons why I've listed Flamethrower. Though I can agree that +1 Shadow Ball won't do very much to Kyogre (+1 versus max HP / min SpD: 27 - 32%). I guess Thunder / Flamethrower works too...? But then Ray comes in and shuts that set down (sort of). And Garchomp. So yeah, I'd say Thunder / Ice Beam is the best way to go (I apologize on that part).

And also to be clear: I understand that Kyogre is very common in Ubers regardless. It's reliability to me, is all. And I also understand that his team isn't Scizor-weak either.
 
Well I do have a lot of experience of ubers...got to 11th on ladder which isn't impressive when you start looking at some of the battlers that bring stuff like Beedrill to ubers.

Ok first thing first I would replace Deoxys-A's current set with Deoxys-S since it is the fastest non scarfed ubers lead you will find. I would recommend you trying the dual screen set with Stealth Rock since you seem to have a niche for setting up with this team.

Next I would make Garchomp a SD Sweeper and use this set on Palkia:

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EV's: 6 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Punch
- Fire Blast
- Spaciel Rend

Thunder is only 50% in the sun making it useless really.

Use the Trapper set for Scizor. Scizor without Roost is a sitting duck in ubers.

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I also suggest Lugia>Bronzong since you have trouble with Rayquaza ect.
 
Wow, thats a lot to take in, I'm going to go through the rates as best I can to try to figurre out what to do here lol. But thanks for all your input guys, it is much appreciated.

OK, an explaination of Palkia is coming first. It was really my main answer to Kyogre, hence why I was running the Rain set, because seeing as Kyogre is no. 1 in the rain he would be seeing use that way. But thanks for your input on that CM, facing non-Kyogre teams has been a bit of a problem, but I might be looking into changing it arounad a bit I'm not sure, I'll come back to this. Also Deoxys leads were never too bad, I would Shadow Ball on the first turn as they SR and then go out to Scizor as the XS from there I could pursuit or Bullet Punch at my discression, depending on how lucky I felt.

First thing I'm going to do is change Scizor's EV spread, I think I will EV it to outspeed those Shedinjas just incase, then I'll put the rest into Maximising Special Defence, although X-Atcs thing isn't working on this computer I will assume just maximising SpD will do it, so the new EV spread will be: 252 Atk / 132 SpD / 124 Spe, does that sound good?

Moving on to the DDRay weakness among other things, I am going to go with Lugia > Bronzong, this will also help out against SD Don so thank you to the people who suggested that, I will use GECs set for now to see how that works. I might go with Toxic > Whirlwind.

As for my lead I really like the Sub Tar that someone suggested, I thought a moveset of Substitute / Focus Punch / Crunch / Fire Blast would do a good job. It means I can kinda do something about Giratina in the later game if hes still around and I can beat the less intelligant scarfRai leads who will D-Void me me. As for why I haven't chosen a Deoxys-S lead, I don't like the way in which they seem entirely dependant on winning a Taunt war with opposing Deoxys-S, that's just not a risk I really want to take or really the way thta I want to be playing the game =/

I think I am unfortunately going to have to replace Garchomp, he's been pretty good for me, and slightly more reliable that Palkia but I really do need Palkia for Kyogre, and I will keep the set the same "for now" If further Rain / Sun issues come about I'll be sure to check back here at your guys other suggestions, but what to do with Garchomp. I will probably keep Bronzong in there for now functioning as a multipurpose wall and such like. Just so that I can get a hang of the changes that I have already made lol theres quite a few. Once I have sorted out the rest of the team and tested it I will come back and sort this slot out.

tl;dr:

Lum Sub Tar > Deoxys-A
Lugia > Garchomp
Changing Scizor's EV spread
 
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