Legalize it. ALL of it.

DM

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Read this before posting.

That little article completely sums up my views on the illegalities of drugs. It's ridiculous to criminalize actions that, without these ridiculous laws, would have no direct negative effect on anyone other than the user. My favorite argument is this:

I could eat medium-rare steaks every meal of the day until I have a heart attack at the age of 37, if that's my wish. My health would rapidly decline, my family would be embarrassed at how I treated myself, I'd lose friends/jobs, etc. How is that any different from shooting heroin every day? What I do with my own body is my own business. If I wanted to mutilate my skin with a soldering iron, hey, that's my prerogative. Why shouldn't I be allowed to eat some stupid mushrooms once in a while (mushrooms, I might add, that occur and grow naturally, without human persuasion)?
 
The article fails to address two things that I feel make the argument of "legalize everything" questionable.

If drugs became easily accessible and grew into widespread popularity, wouldn't that pose a risk to everyone's safety and law & order? I think everyone knows what lengths a heroin addict can go to if they are desperate to get a hold of some and are facing withdrawel.

I'm usually not one to promote "economic justice", but unless hard drugs are cracked down on I don't see inner cities like Detroit ever coming out of economic depression and everyone will just be drug addicts (as a good majority of them are).

Mostly though, what about the issue of my safety? People on heroin, meth, cocaine will do irrational things (steal, murder, whatever) if they need to get high. Legalizing everything would only put behavior like that on the rise. That's the main difference between that and alcohol. While people who are alcoholics can pose a risk to others public safety, I don't feel it's too the degree that hard drugs can (I meant if hard drugs were legalized, obviously an illegal product that sees less use will show less damage that alcohol).

Edit: Softer drugs are on a different scale than things like heroin in my opinion, softer drugs I'd be more open to but the hard stuff I think would damage american's safety, economy, etc.

Edit 2: Although, I do agree with the principle our position on drugs does need to change dramatically. I just don't feel legalizing all of it is the solution.
 
Red-blooded americans with wholesome values don't question the law.

Dreamers are threats.

Seriously though, I don't do drugs so I've never put much thought into this, but from my somewhat narrow perspective, the war on drugs does seem a bit arbitrary. How many people are in prison for marijuana that was used to relax after a day of work, taking up space and money and distracting law enforcement from "REAL" threats?

On the other hand, how many people have died because someone drove while they were high? I'm a bit skeptical about that side of the argument though, because from my experience with pot heads, driving is the last thing they want to do. :P

Still though I think that drugs are pretty hit and miss. There are arguments from either side that I can appreciate. But I think in the end I don't think that recreational drugs should be illegal.
I think anyone with half a brain would agree that drugs that are clearly terrible should never be legal. I've lost a friend from a heroin overdose, I know far too many people who are addicted to meth, and while I've never experienced the death of someone close to me due to cocaine, I've seen the way it wrecks people. So harder drugs should stay illegal.

And for the record I think that alcohol is far more harmful than marijuana. There are certainly a lot more deaths caused by drunk driving than by stoned driving, methinks.
 
Yeah. You could do that to your own body... but that doesn't really seem to be the point. We spend God knows how long educating people against harming themselves and they still do it. If you allow people to supply it, that's like giving the go-ahead to every bloody person to commit suicide. This has happened before; notably, when cannabis was reclassified as a class C drug. Alcohol is a massive problem in Britain because it simply isn't regulated. And you think we can solve a problem by allowing it to spread? That's almost like trying to curb terrorism by giving out free guns.

If you want to kill yourself, I'm tempted to say go ahead; but it's in human nature to want to protect people, even from themselves. Sure, mushrooms grow naturally, are you saying that makes it OK to eat them? It's pretty much psychological; if you allow people to do it now, that's like saying 'No, we were wrong, you can eat them and like them!' which honestly does not work.
 
Oh, about the whole "it grows naturally" thing, I don't mean to be argumentative because as I've said I don't see much harm in recreational drugs, but those on the other end of the debate could counter by naming quite a few harmful things that grow naturally so... >_>
 
While I agree on libertarian economic principles, that the legalization of all drugs can be desirable and socially (more) efficient, I would argue that benefits do exist with banning them.

Firstly, information is neither perfect nor symmetric. In layman's terms, not everyone will realise the potential costs and hazards associated with taking drugs. Indeed, some may have been mislead into having entirely false expectations. Without this knowledge, one cannot make an informed choice.

Secondly, at least the law gives people (especially impressionable youths) something to argue with, against peer pressure. Otherwise, it can be very difficult to say no; even if one understands the risk involved and would prefer not to try drugs. Such coercion takes decision making out of an individual's hands.

Reality is not as simple as "it is my decision" because it can be misinformed or externally influenced.
 
If drugs became easily accessible and grew into widespread popularity, wouldn't that pose a risk to everyone's safety and law & order? I think everyone knows what lengths a heroin addict can go to if they are desperate to get a hold of some and are facing withdrawel.

Drug dealers kill each other each year by the thousands. Innocent people are very often caught up in these gunfights. By eliminating the need to kill another man for drug turf, you drastically lower the murder rate. This makes Americans safer, not at more risk.

I'm usually not one to promote "economic justice", but unless hard drugs are cracked down on I don't see inner cities like Detroit ever coming out of economic depression and everyone will just be drug addicts (as a good majority of them are).

I'm not a big proponent of the "legalize and tax" argument, but it makes sense in response to your statement. Detroit is filled with people who are already buying this crap every day. Legalize and tax and all of a sudden the city has some income.

Mostly though, what about the issue of my safety? People on heroin, meth, cocaine will do irrational things (steal, murder, whatever) if they need to get high. Legalizing everything would only put behavior like that on the rise. That's the main difference between that and alcohol. While people who are alcoholics can pose a risk to others public safety, I don't feel it's too the degree that hard drugs can (I meant if hard drugs were legalized, obviously an illegal product that sees less use will show less damage that alcohol).

You wouldn't be at any more risk than you are now. You are supposing that by legalizing hard drugs, thousands of people are going to say "What, heroin is legal now? Well, then I need to try it!" If someone is going to do heroin, the illegality of the drug isn't going to stop them.

Also: legalizing these drugs removes the stigma attached to doing them. Addicts cannot get help right now because they know admitting to use of these drugs will only land them in jail/rehab facilities. When we are able to treat the addict instead of the addiction, we can remove the necessity to engage in harmful behavior to feed that addiciton.

Edit: Softer drugs are on a different scale than things like heroin in my opinion, softer drugs I'd be more open to but the hard stuff I think would damage american's safety, economy, etc.

The way I look at it, it's all or nothing. They might try to say one drug is "worse" than another, but in the end they all do the same thing, and to try to legalize some and not all is just a slippery slope.

On the other hand, how many people have died because someone drove while they were high? I'm a bit skeptical about that side of the argument though, because from my experience with pot heads, driving is the last thing they want to do. :P

Quite right. (Ugh, it makes me reply in green.) Driving while high is no different from driving while intoxicated (although, from personal experience it's much easier and safer). They should carry the exact same penalties.

But I think in the end I don't think that recreational drugs should be illegal.
<snip>
So harder drugs should stay illegal.


You can't really differentiate like that. All drugs are recreational. No one starts doing meth because they want their teeth to fall out, they do it because it feels good.

And for the record I think that alcohol is far more harmful than marijuana. There are certainly a lot more deaths caused by drunk driving than by stoned driving, methinks.

Drunk driving aside (you can't really compare the two in that regard, there isn't sufficient data for high driving), alcohol is much more harmful to the human body than marijuana.

Yeah. You could do that to your own body... but that doesn't really seem to be the point. We spend God knows how long educating people against harming themselves and they still do it. If you allow people to supply it, that's like giving the go-ahead to every bloody person to commit suicide. This has happened before; notably, when cannabis was reclassified as a class C drug. Alcohol is a massive problem in Britain because it simply isn't regulated. And you think we can solve a problem by allowing it to spread? That's almost like trying to curb terrorism by giving out free guns.

You're making the same argument that Caelum made, that everyone and their mother will do crack because it's all of a sudden legal. Number one, that's just silly, but number two... why do you care? If those people want to slowly kill themselves, that's their prerogative, and it isn't for you or me to tell them not to.

If you want to kill yourself, I'm tempted to say go ahead; but it's in human nature to want to protect people, even from themselves. Sure, mushrooms grow naturally, are you saying that makes it OK to eat them? It's pretty much psychological; if you allow people to do it now, that's like saying 'No, we were wrong, you can eat them and like them!' which honestly does not work.

Why not? Prohibition has been demonstrated to not only have no effect on the use of the illegal substance, but also to create MORE crime. (Think back to the 1920s.)

Oh, about the whole "it grows naturally" thing, I don't mean to be argumentative because as I've said I don't see much harm in recreational drugs, but those on the other end of the debate could counter by naming quite a few harmful things that grow naturally so... >_>

But don't you think it's silly that they've criminalized something that grows on cow poop? And if all those other things in nature are harmful to humans, why aren't they illegal too?

Secondly, at least the law gives people (especially impressionable youths) something to argue with, against peer pressure. Otherwise, it can be very difficult to say no; even if one understands the risk involved and would prefer not to try drugs. Such coercion takes decision making out of an individual's hands.

Reality is not as simple as "it is my decision" because it can be misinformed or externally influenced.

The law also attaches a taboo to the drugs which draws kids into them anyway. If you don't think kids take up smoking just because they're not supposed to, you're kidding yourself. Kids are drawn to what they shouldn't do, it's just their nature.

By not fighting the futile war on drugs, we'd have billions of dollars at our disposal. Dollars that could be used to educate not only children, but also adults on the effects of drugs. DARE just isn't cutting it.
 
You wouldn't be at any more risk than you are now. You are supposing that my legalizing hard drugs, thousands of people are going to say "What, heroin is legal now? Well, then I need to try it!" If someone is going to do heroin, the illegality of the drug isn't going to stop them.

Also: legalizing these drugs removes the stigma attached to doing them. Addicts cannot get help right now because they know admitting to use of these drugs will only land them in jail/rehab facilities. When we are able to treat the addict instead of the addiction, we can remove the necessity to engage in harmful behavior to feed that addiciton.

I guess that explains why we disagree. I do believe that something being illegal is a disincentive for the majority of the population using it. It's like speed limits. If we posted a speed limit of 45, yes there are going to be people that decide to speed and put others in danger. If we instead just recommend a speed of 45 but don't enforce it legally, I would imagine a significant amount of people would speed. Also, making something like heroin legal makes it more accessible to average people. I don't see how something being illegal doesn't, at the very least, inhibit people from trying it and preventing the cycle of addiction.

On the note of addict treatment, I do agree that reform is needed. If someone wants to willing seek out help, I don't think they should face legal ramifications (unless they are known distributors or something and just happened to be addicted as well).
 
Number one, that's just silly, but number two... why do you care?

Some people have a conscience. Tell me that you'll just stand there and witness some stranger pull out a blade and start stabbing themselves, and do absolutely nothing about it but watch as they destroy themselves. It's essentially the same thing.
 
The way I look at it, it's all or nothing. They might try to say one drug is "worse" than another, but in the end they all do the same thing, and to try to legalize some and not all is just a slippery slope.

But there already are legal drugs: Alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. None of them have as of yet created a slippery slope into "harder" drugs.
 
Eh, this is a touchy subject for me, so do pardon me if anything I say comes off a bit biased. (As most opinions do anyway)

This girl I'm seeing has come from an extremely brutal past, mostly brought onto her from her shitstain of an ex. Long story short, he was abusive to her, and even managed to get her addicted to all the drugs he was on, especially meth. After 3 torturous years, she finally broke herself free from him and eventually quit her drug habits. Now, the only thing she does is smoke cigarettes, but I can settle for that considering what she's beend through. (I'm not a smoker in any sense of the word, but I'm not goin' to take that from her)

I already told her to never point him out to me, because they would lock me up for life after what I'd do. Honestly, I was so genuinely upset when she told me that story, I had to go for a walk to relax.


So yeah, I'm not a huge fan of drugs, whether they be "soft" or "hard". I've flown clean my whole life, even recently kicking drinking, and I've had no diminished quality of life from it.

In the end, I think it all boils down to willpower.
 
I guess that explains why we disagree. I do believe that something being illegal is a disincentive for the majority of the population using it. It's like speed limits. If we posted a speed limit of 45, yes there are going to be people that decide to speed and put others in danger. If we instead just recommend a speed of 45 but don't enforce it legally, I would imagine a significant amount of people would speed. Also, making something like heroin legal makes it more accessible to average people. I don't see how something being illegal doesn't, at the very least, inhibit people from trying it and preventing the cycle of addiction.

Speeding has the instant possibility of killing not only yourself but anyone else who might be on the road with you, or in the same car as you. Shooting up and overdosing on heroin will only cause harm to the user. And don't even get me started on the American traffic system, that's a joke in itself that deserves its own thread.

On the note of addict treatment, I do agree that reform is needed. If someone wants to willing seek out help, I don't think they should face legal ramifications (unless they are known distributors or something and just happened to be addicted as well).

I don't really like that qualification on giving aid to addicts. Keep in mind, if these drugs are legalized they'll more than likely be sold in designated stores; there won't be very many street dealers anymore, because A. the drugs will be closely regulated, and B. they just won't be necessary anymore.

Some people have a conscience. Tell me that you'll just stand there and witness some stranger pull out a blade and start stabbing themselves, and do absolutely nothing about it but watch as they destroy themselves. It's essentially the same thing.

Yes, I would. I have no readiness to stop someone from killing themself, especially in such a violent manner. That's their choice in life to make, I will not stop them. See, you're feeling too much emotion on the subject, and I understand that, but you need to keep in mind that this debate isn't about compassion, it's about choice. The government has told me I cannot make this choice for myself, and I feel that's ludicrous.

But there already are legal drugs: Alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. None of them have as of yet created a slippery slope into "harder" drugs.

Alcohol and nicotine are not legal to everyone; you make it sound as if they're readily available. Caffeine is legal, yes, as it should be. I'm smart enough to respect my body and not drink coffee or soda, as that is the choice I made with the intelligence I possess.

As for your second sentence, there is absolutely no way you can either prove or disprove that statement. That is so far out in left field, it might as well be outside the stadium.

This girl I'm seeing has come from an extremely brutal past, mostly brought onto her from her shitstain of an ex. Long story short, he was abusive to her, and even managed to get her addicted to all the drugs he was on, especially meth. After 3 torturous years, she finally broke herself free from him and eventually quit her drug habits. Now, the only thing she does is smoke cigarettes, but I can settle for that considering what she's beend through. (I'm not a smoker in any sense of the word, but I'm not goin' to take that from her)

I'm very sorry to hear that, but I'm also very glad that she was able to come out of that situation healthy and living a good life. But as you can see, meth being illegal didn't stop her or that other guy from doing it and almost letting it ruin their lives. The best thing we can do for people like them is legalize it so we can much more easily get them the help they need.

In the end, I think it all boils down to willpower.

Exactly right. Some people are stronger than others; the legality of a drug doesn't even enter into it, especially in urban areas. Drugs are just there, all the time, looked at as just another piece of everyday life. Legalization, education (and therefore some prevention) are what will help this country, not the Fascist reactionary policies we employ now.
 
Something being illegal won't stop the majority of the population from using it - as DM already mentioned, see prohibition in the 20s. Legalizing drugs would also have the fortunate side effect of reducing a vast amount of gangs by removing their largest (by far) source of income.
 
DM said:
Griffin said:
DM said:
The way I look at it, it's all or nothing. They might try to say one drug is "worse" than another, but in the end they all do the same thing, and to try to legalize some and not all is just a slippery slope.

But there already are legal drugs: Alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. None of them have as of yet created a slippery slope into "harder" drugs.

Alcohol and nicotine are not legal to everyone; you make it sound as if they're readily available.

I figured we were talking about adults anyway. You want to sell drugs to children? Because other than that, yeah, both are pretty much readily available. I don't have to get a permit to buy alcohol or cigarettes.

DM said:
As for your second sentence, there is absolutely no way you can either prove or disprove that statement. That is so far out in left field, it might as well be outside the stadium.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were talking about legality; that we can't permit just some drugs because it will just become a slippery slope into allowing all drugs. So I provided examples of drugs (Alcohol, Nicotine, Caffeine) that are already legal and have - as of yet - not slippery sloped into "harder" drugs being legal.
 
Shooting up and overdosing on heroin will only cause harm to the user.

No, it won't. People who take drugs take their side-effects too; and I would trust somebody with a messed-up head as far as I could throw them with both hands behind my back. If you've heard of Baby P, though I assume you have, you should recognise the sort of danger people's families are in.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were talking about legality; that we can't permit just some drugs because it will just become a slippery slope into allowing all drugs. So I provided examples of drugs (Alcohol, Nicotine, Caffeine) that are already legal and have - as of yet - not slippery sloped into "harder" drugs being legal.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't what DM meant by "slippery slope". If so, he wouldn't mind the slipperiness of the slope since he ultimately wants all drugs to be legalized (including the harder drugs); this is clearly not the case though, as DM implied that the "slippery slope" was counter-intuitive. What he likely meant was that when deciding which drugs should be legal and which should not be legal, it is difficult to judge according to an objective standard. What is the objective standard? What should make one drug legal and another illegal? Hence the "slippery slope" and hence why all drugs should either be legal or illegal.

I have nothing to add other than that; I've found the OP and DM's responses to objections to be agreeable.
 
I'm pretty sure that wasn't what DM meant by "slippery slope". If so, he wouldn't mind the slipperiness of the slope since he ultimately wants all drugs to be legalized (including the harder drugs); this is clearly not the case though, as DM implied that the "slippery slope" was counter-intuitive. What he likely meant was that when deciding which drugs should be legal and which should not be legal, it is difficult to judge according to an objective standard. What is the objective standard? What should make one drug legal and another illegal? Hence the "slippery slope" and hence why all drugs should either be legal or illegal.

Oh. My apologies in that case.
 
No, it won't. People who take drugs take their side-effects too; and I would trust somebody with a messed-up head as far as I could throw them with both hands behind my back. If you've heard of Baby P, though I assume you have, you should recognise the sort of danger people's families are in.

To say that the continued criminalization of drugs will somehow prevent familial abuse (which it demonstrably has not) is a bit naive. People will get drugs and pose threats to their families regardless of the law, due to the very nature of drugs; they are addictive, profitable, and require no formal education to get into the business of selling/using; they are, thus, impossible to control. If anything, the legalization of drugs will remove the stigma of drug usage, creating social institutions and broadening social networks designed to prevent domestic violence (or any sort of drug related violence). Sometimes what seems intuitively correct isn't necessarily so.

Also, other crime can be reduced by way of bleeding out the dealers to death--by legalizing AND selling drugs at pharmaceutical stores, one can set prices that are impossible for dealers to compete with (in other words, prices making any profitability marginal/non-existent). In doing so, one can reduce drug related crime and trust me, much of contemporary crime is drug related (and not over pharmaceutical drugs that are just as potent and dangerous as hard drugs, but over the black market stuff). Also, I believe (though I don't know this for sure) that most of drug related crime is done by dealers over turf, as opposed to crimes committed by individual users. Dangerous heroin users (who purely use and don't deal) are really an isolated lot.
 
I figured we were talking about adults anyway. You want to sell drugs to children? Because other than that, yeah, both are pretty much readily available. I don't have to get a permit to buy alcohol or cigarettes.

I don't want to specifically target children, no. But I do think alcohol should be legal for all ages and it should be up to the parents to educate their children on how to consume it responsibly (as they do in Europe).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were talking about legality; that we can't permit just some drugs because it will just become a slippery slope into allowing all drugs. So I provided examples of drugs (Alcohol, Nicotine, Caffeine) that are already legal and have - as of yet - not slippery sloped into "harder" drugs being legal.

That's not what you said, though. You said "None of them have as of yet created a slippery slope into "harder" drugs." Nowhere in there did you add on "being legal," hence I responded the way I did. Also, I'd say that you still have a very weak argument, because alcohol and tobacco are only legal if you meet an arbitrary age requirement. I make no argument for caffeine, it's effects are so minute (owing to it being so controlled), it shouldn't even be included in this conversation.

No, it won't. People who take drugs take their side-effects too; and I would trust somebody with a messed-up head as far as I could throw them with both hands behind my back. If you've heard of Baby P, though I assume you have, you should recognise the sort of danger people's families are in.

The drug will only DIRECTLY harm the user. If I shoot up heroin and you're standing next to me, you don't feel any pain. My whole point is that be legalizing and keeping tabs on these drugs, we can keep tabs on the users and cut down on incidents (which are already extremely rare). In Scandinavian countries they have clinics where addicts can go get their fixes for free; they go in, get a clean needle (and avoid HIV and other diseases), get a measured dose so they don't OD, and then they go on their way to live their lives.

You've got to draw the line somewhere; stuff like PCP inherently makes people violent.

That hasn't stopped thousands and thousands of people from smoking it today, has it?

and not over pharmaceutical drugs that are just as potent and dangerous as hard drugs

FUCK DRUG COMPANIES. Biggest pushers/dealers of them all. This country is so over-medicated and pumped full of unnecessary/harmful prescriptions, and then the government has the audacity to say something like marijuana is harmful to your health? American hypocrisy at work.
 
The War on Drugs is a load of bullshit (just like the War on Poverty) but it's a false dichotomy to suggest the choices are between an expansive government waste of money and the legalization of every mind-numbing substance known to man.

To counterpoint Cafferty, if we allow drugs how many more traffic officers will we need to prevent the accidents caused by speeders crashing into stoners?

How many robberies involving PCP abusers will end up killing police officers? How many more "manslaughters" will occur because "you're honor, he was toked up! The heroin/crack/whatever made him do it!"

Point being, legalizing everything is not consequence free unless you make the assumption that before, during, and after drug use the user will remain locked in their own basement in order to protect their neighbors. That doesn't strike me as a realistic policy. Is a beat cop going to ensure you only do drugs in your basement? How is that any less a waste of local resources?

Alchohol is legal and yet people still use it irresponsibly. People will use other drugs just as irresponsibly as they do alchohol.
 
Alchohol is legal and yet people still use it irresponsibly. People will use other drugs just as irresponsibly as they do alchohol.

1) Alcohol is legal because it is a cash cow, as is tobacco. To declare that as okay but not other less harmful drugs (pot) is hypocritcial.
2) When alcohol was made illegal, it caused, among other problems, the real start of organized crime in the United States. Going with that, while damage in some forms would be hurt, organized crime is MOSTLY involved with drugs.

I agree with you that there will be terrible problems. This is why I argue stricter penalties would need to exist, but I am not sure what those should be beyond taking drivers licenses away more readily. I do not concern myself with non-medicinal drugs.
 
That hasn't stopped thousands and thousands of people from smoking it today, has it?
Probably because they waste all their resources trying to put Johnny Potsmoker in jail because he's easy to catch.

How many robberies involving PCP abusers will end up killing police officers? How many more "manslaughters" will occur because "you're honor, he was toked up! The heroin/crack/whatever made him do it!"
Besides the fact that PCP makes people violent and should remain illegal, we don't allow that defense in cases of drunk people (and if we do, we shouldn't). They made the decision to get wasted, they know what it makes people do, they should have to deal with the consequences.
 
Syberia said:
Besides the fact that PCP makes people violent and should remain illegal, we don't allow that defense in cases of drunk people (and if we do, we shouldn't). They made the decision to get wasted, they know what it makes people do, they should have to deal with the consequences.

John Edwards channeled dead children in court. If you don't think offenders who were high when they made their offense won't win at least a few cases (or argue a judgment down) you're naive.

DM appears to be arguing from the point of legalizing everything. Therefore I assume for the purposes of my argument that everything, including hard drugs, is legal. The potential solution suggested by DM based on Scandinavia strikes as little more than a zoo for addicts.

What will the cost of the addict zoo be for the state? The cost to procure the formerly hard substances? Who exactly will produce and buy the stuff? You may think you can catch the Magic Dragon, but you never can. Look at Stanley try though...

EDIT: A query for you DM: Is there any real difference between being addicted to government run welfare and being addicted to government run drug clinics?
 
John Edwards channeled dead children in court. If you don't think offenders who were high when they made their offense won't win at least a few cases (or argue a judgment down) you're naive.
Then that's a problem with our justice system, that won't be fixed by simply legalizing everything.
 
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