Garchomp-Z's best check right now is competition from Tank Chomp
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Pet Mod Legends Z-A OU
- Thread starter dhelmise
- Start date
Asault belt Starmie, poison, flying or bug pokemon with fire/water or electric adicional typing
Individually I don't think there is anything which can check all three
Specially Defensive Dondozo actually gets close to checking all 3
252 SpA Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 211-250 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can survive 2 Draco Meteors, but unfortunately would get KO’d in the process because of Avalanche making contact and Mega Garchomp Z having Rough Skin, and Avalanche only OHKOing if Garchomp was still a ground type.
Dondozo otherwise checks both Absol and Lucario (ones not running Focus Blast at least) fairly well.
a question for the metagame developers, i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that PLZA dark void as it is normally won't be implemented? as much as i'd love to see the move restored to some semblance of usefulness after the sm*argle incident, guaranteed sleep would be ridiculously overpowered, not counting it getting double damage on slept targets AND having lifesteal.
i think it could be changed to be a homage to the base game by triggering and getting buffed by torment instead of sleep? changing the metagame so sleep works like PLZA's drowsiness wouldn't work in normal turn-based, so torment could reflect how drowsiness increases the cooldown time of moves.
edit: it would fit thematically as well since iirc in game it's directly said darkrai "torments people with nightmares". maybe let bad dreams allow itself and dream eater to trigger on tormented targets?
i think it could be changed to be a homage to the base game by triggering and getting buffed by torment instead of sleep? changing the metagame so sleep works like PLZA's drowsiness wouldn't work in normal turn-based, so torment could reflect how drowsiness increases the cooldown time of moves.
edit: it would fit thematically as well since iirc in game it's directly said darkrai "torments people with nightmares". maybe let bad dreams allow itself and dream eater to trigger on tormented targets?
Breaking my vow of silence to say that this metagame is only focused on preexisting abilities now to streamline the learning process of the metagame, and the custom Abilities are generally something that only Game Freak should really come up with from now on.
Ok can I be the first to ask why does Raichu get extremespeed? It comes from a long gone event that was cut due to home and GF for some reason not liking event only moves anymore. I know we want Raichu X to be good but a removed transfer move also doesn't do anything for it if it doesn't have it in champions anyway, abilities be damned.
This metagame is psuedo National Dex metagame where there is a limited dex, items, and movepools, but the movepools are national dex just without the Hidden Powers and Toxics for some reason.
Trying to make a mega crab team how does this look so far
(Also it somehow lived a +4 flamethrower from mega chomp lol)
https://pokepast.es/ec5651744993454c
(Also it somehow lived a +4 flamethrower from mega chomp lol)
https://pokepast.es/ec5651744993454c
Been having fun with cosmic power stored power chimecho, not the strongest but it's decent and I've been making my way up the rank. Will say there's still a lot of threats that make getting set up hard though
Never been a fan of how legendary heavy ou has been and not exactly thrilled to see that become the case in this tier now either. I know things like heatran are unfortunately here to stay ...but genesect seems a bit to much. That thing is insanely strong and can break through everything including bulky mons. Feel it should at least be suspect/voted on, it's on virtually every team. Magearna I can handle fairly well with my team, but I'm definitely surprised it's still legal
Meanwhile it seems once again people are mostly just sticking with a couple megas, kinda surprised still more people aren't expiramenting more with a wider amount of mind but ive primarily seen mega garchomp z (who isn't even available in za so why is he available here?) and golisopod. Surprisingly only seen one Raichu y and one zeraora mega
Also what's the deal with Lucario z? Everyone was certain it would be insta banned, but it isn't yet I've not run into any since like day 1 of the dlc mons joining. Is it just a coincidence for me? Is it not actually as good as expected?
Never been a fan of how legendary heavy ou has been and not exactly thrilled to see that become the case in this tier now either. I know things like heatran are unfortunately here to stay ...but genesect seems a bit to much. That thing is insanely strong and can break through everything including bulky mons. Feel it should at least be suspect/voted on, it's on virtually every team. Magearna I can handle fairly well with my team, but I'm definitely surprised it's still legal
Meanwhile it seems once again people are mostly just sticking with a couple megas, kinda surprised still more people aren't expiramenting more with a wider amount of mind but ive primarily seen mega garchomp z (who isn't even available in za so why is he available here?) and golisopod. Surprisingly only seen one Raichu y and one zeraora mega
Also what's the deal with Lucario z? Everyone was certain it would be insta banned, but it isn't yet I've not run into any since like day 1 of the dlc mons joining. Is it just a coincidence for me? Is it not actually as good as expected?
:Darkai: (Mega)
Mega Darkrai is arguably one of the worst Megas in comparison to its base form. That is to say, while not the worst in a vacuum, far from it especially compared to Megas like Scovillain, Pyroar, and Malamar. But rather when you compare it to its base form, its arguably the worst. Most usage of Mega Darkrai so far has pretty much just been just new toy syndrome and YouTube click bait.
It's not hard to see why. Mega Darkrai got its ankles broken and got 40 points less in Spe, the most important stat for a Mega. Not only that, but Mega Darkrai then puts 30 of that 40 Spe into Atk. The lose in Spe being more detrimental because Darkrai is well known for being fast, so it losing 10 Spe would have already been pretty bad compared to something like Heatran (which lowkey kind of sucks too and is entirely saved by Earth Eater).
And I noticed something about Darkrai's stats. I noticed that they are pretty similar to another Dark type with a high BST.
Mega Darkrai and Hoopa have very similar HP, SpA, SpD, and Spe, only changing up the physical stats. Besides the Atk/Def stats, Mega Darkrai is effectively just Hoopa-Unbound. A Hoopa that takes up a Mega slot, can't hold an item, has only Mono STAB, and some minor differences.
Some other Megas have similar issue where they become just another Pokemon but suffer because they take up a Mega slot and can't hold an item. See Clefable and Togekiss.
And while Darkrai gets Dark Aura, meaning its Dark moves actually hit harder naturally, the ability to hold items means Hoopa ends up being way stronger anyways.
This is also ignoring how Hoopa-U has stronger coverage due to naturally higher Atk/SpA, has dual STAB that compliments each other well, and moves such as Gunk Shot.
Mega Darkrai has physical bulk, some resistances, Sword Dance, and Sucker Punch over Hoopa. Those being the only real worthwhile advantages Mega Darkrai has. It really needs more to set itself apart.
Dark Aura is good, but Mega Darkrai definitely needs something better.
Mega Darkrai should get Sheer Force as its ability over Dark Aura. Giving almost the same boost to most of Darkrai's moves would boost Mega Darkrai's viability up significantly and would make that -40 Spe somewhat worthwhile. Darkrai has plenty of Sheer Force boosted moves, and also some moves it'd like to use like Vacuum Wave that isn't boosted. You also eliminate your bailouts with flinching, freezing, or poisoning your opponent to death.
Mega Darkrai is arguably one of the worst Megas in comparison to its base form. That is to say, while not the worst in a vacuum, far from it especially compared to Megas like Scovillain, Pyroar, and Malamar. But rather when you compare it to its base form, its arguably the worst. Most usage of Mega Darkrai so far has pretty much just been just new toy syndrome and YouTube click bait.
It's not hard to see why. Mega Darkrai got its ankles broken and got 40 points less in Spe, the most important stat for a Mega. Not only that, but Mega Darkrai then puts 30 of that 40 Spe into Atk. The lose in Spe being more detrimental because Darkrai is well known for being fast, so it losing 10 Spe would have already been pretty bad compared to something like Heatran (which lowkey kind of sucks too and is entirely saved by Earth Eater).
And I noticed something about Darkrai's stats. I noticed that they are pretty similar to another Dark type with a high BST.
Mega Darkrai and Hoopa have very similar HP, SpA, SpD, and Spe, only changing up the physical stats. Besides the Atk/Def stats, Mega Darkrai is effectively just Hoopa-Unbound. A Hoopa that takes up a Mega slot, can't hold an item, has only Mono STAB, and some minor differences.
Some other Megas have similar issue where they become just another Pokemon but suffer because they take up a Mega slot and can't hold an item. See Clefable and Togekiss.
And while Darkrai gets Dark Aura, meaning its Dark moves actually hit harder naturally, the ability to hold items means Hoopa ends up being way stronger anyways.
252 SpA Dark Aura Darkrai-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dark Aura Darkrai-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dark Aura Darkrai-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Darkrai has physical bulk, some resistances, Sword Dance, and Sucker Punch over Hoopa. Those being the only real worthwhile advantages Mega Darkrai has. It really needs more to set itself apart.
Dark Aura is good, but Mega Darkrai definitely needs something better.
Mega Darkrai should get Sheer Force as its ability over Dark Aura. Giving almost the same boost to most of Darkrai's moves would boost Mega Darkrai's viability up significantly and would make that -40 Spe somewhat worthwhile. Darkrai has plenty of Sheer Force boosted moves, and also some moves it'd like to use like Vacuum Wave that isn't boosted. You also eliminate your bailouts with flinching, freezing, or poisoning your opponent to death.
It's been a while since the ZA OU is out so do you guys still think the Z mons, genesect, Annhilape and magerna needs to be banned? I personally don't think so.
For Z mons Absol is easiest to counter and punish. Dark+Ghost stab is blocked by so many and has many weakness + it's paper thin bulk
Z Garchomp is straight up a waste especially after the ability change to rough skin. Just use scarf Latias/specs Latias instead.
Z Luc is the biggest one but it too is easily countered, Annhilape destroys it, slowking blocks and paralyses, scarf genesect destroys it, specs vaccum wave keldeo destroys, any bulky mon easily tanks and punishes it. I personally love using it in the ladder but barely anyone else uses it.
Genesect is Honestly healthy for this meta, it's really good but with so many fast nukes and priority going around it gets countered.
Same story with Annhilape though I do think rage fist should be banned and replaced by poltergeist.
This meta feels more healthy than gen 9 tbh.
For Z mons Absol is easiest to counter and punish. Dark+Ghost stab is blocked by so many and has many weakness + it's paper thin bulk
Z Garchomp is straight up a waste especially after the ability change to rough skin. Just use scarf Latias/specs Latias instead.
Z Luc is the biggest one but it too is easily countered, Annhilape destroys it, slowking blocks and paralyses, scarf genesect destroys it, specs vaccum wave keldeo destroys, any bulky mon easily tanks and punishes it. I personally love using it in the ladder but barely anyone else uses it.
Genesect is Honestly healthy for this meta, it's really good but with so many fast nukes and priority going around it gets countered.
Same story with Annhilape though I do think rage fist should be banned and replaced by poltergeist.
This meta feels more healthy than gen 9 tbh.
It just I feel like Galvanize stays balance without making it the broken monster which will have to be nerfed and in my honest opinion surge surfer is terrible ability well I feel same aboy
I
I was reading through this and felt like I want to try it got any version of it with Zeraora (I am crap at team building)Honest question, what exactly is stopping someone from running this kind of team.
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Some hazard stackers to lead off games. Your choice of which Pokemon you want to stack hazards with.
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Some form of set up enabler for all your offensive threats. Parting Shot being key since a 33% damage reduction is really nice, plus you can Will-o-wisp to further reduce damage and other forms of disruption like Knock Off.
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The fast, hard hitting set up Mega. Their main drawbacks being reduced by Parting Shot and the Pokemon that threaten the pivotters, Grass/Dark/Ghost/Water, not being as threatening to the Megas, especially at -1.
The Double Dance Magearna that already has excellent bulk and can blow past nearly everything after a few Shift Gears and Calm Minds, and even heal any damage to make revenge killing harder.
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Dragon Dancer that can tank most hits anyways, even more after a Parting Shot. Needing 1 or 2 DDs to end games or at least make significant progress.
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Some filler Pokemon. Annihilape destroying Stall, Gholdengo helping keep your hazards up, Genesect being a strong Scarfer or Shift Gear sweeper, Hoopa blasting most things, or maybe Zeraora just to have a really fast non Mega.
You can pretty much pick and select what you want for this HO style tran to beat any other team.
This post is also a subtle reference to how Parting Shot maybe be a bit overpowered. Pivoting in general too.
I was meming about this before, but Chomp Z is getting good uasge on high ladder. I spent much of the afternoon watching high ladder and it was 60% tank chomp, 40% Chomp Z, and one guy with a scarf rocks chomp. Seems viable but definitely not crazy OP or anything.
Its a genesect meta out there, whoever pilots their genesect better and uses it health for trades best often wins.
I think this metagame is pretty good. Its fun to play and watch. Removing M Magerna was a good call
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This is a moot request as sleep moves are already banned.
Furthermore I don't believe there is any real interest from council to conform to ZA mechanics in general
Why their are banned
Sleep Move Clause is a near universal clause on Smogon formats in Gen 9. Sleep Moves have just been deemed uncompetitive
To be honest, I think even with the other abilities it's just gonna be whatever. Surge Surfer could probably be kinda stupid, but I think it'd be fine. It's a wallbreaker, but one that kills itself, and at that job, it's kinda just whatever. I mean, hey, it CAN get that job done, but you'd want other stuff to be ran over it. Surge Surfer won't fix it from being easily smacked in the face by priority - it hits a few Volt Tackles, gets knocked down to like 40%, and then dies to Sucker Punch or some shit.
(Since the new Megas aren't on the calc yet, I just independently adjusted Raichu's BST to be that of Mega X, as well as for anything else mentioned)
252+ Atk Mega Raichu X Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp Z: 254-300 (71.1 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 190-224 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I wasn't sure if the +1 Atk that it gets is given before or after, I believe it's after, but I calc'd it for being plus anyway)
252+ Atk Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 114-135 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And for the sake of prosperity:
252+ Atk Galvanize Raichu Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Galvanize Raichu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 92-108 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
Legitimately, what does Galavanize give it other than STAB ESpeed? Does it help anything else other than just giving it some fast chip options? Sure, outside of Natdex you have STAB Quick Attack (neat, but not nearly as good) and... STAB Fake Out, I guess.
Again, I feel like there's way better use for your mega than something that comes in, gets maybe one chip of damage, and then fucks off. It makes those ESpeeds hit harder so it can just kinda click it as it pleases, but I still don't really think that does anything other than making it click Espeed instead of Volt Tackle. These aren't even with DEF investment. I'd argue Levitate being better because at least that's some kind of defensive utility.
I don't really think Galvanize helps it "stay balanced", let alone the fact that Espeed is a Natdex move for the Pikachu line anyway, so it'd literally just be for buffing it in the Petmod. Which, again, kinda silly. All I'm saying is that I think chasing the hype of STAB Extreme Speed is going to lead you to forget that this thing is kinda just mediocre to begin with. I could be wholly wrong, I could be downplaying, but at the same time, I don't think it has that much niche to really justify it over Zeraora. It's incredibly linear, and what it's doing is pretty good, but not worthy enough to try and make it work that much. Galvanize wouldn't change much other than making it pretty linear.
Use it if you want - shit, I'm gonna, I love Raichu - but in terms of like, where it is in the meta? I don't think it is anywhere, because it's not very good. And I don't know why people keep chasing the dream of Galvanize Xchu. Maybe I'm just arguing into a circle, I feel like I contradicted myself a few times here and there so whoops.
This is all in the context of OU, though. This guy's gonna be a lot better in whatever part of the future he can go to lower tiers, where the power balance isn't so weighed against him. I legitimately do see this guy being good in UU/RU. I think he'll go crazy there.
I'm not sure how often the council reads here, but I think the meta is in a weird spot. It's kinda trying to be za but turned based, but also kinda trying to be modern gen with za megas. Kinda seems like it's trying to be realistic but also feels like it's just whatever seems fun and balanced. And it kinda wants to be a "test out new megas" kinda wants to be a balanced meta of its own....but is just a Frankenstein right now
I feel like at least a little more direction is needed. Personally I think the previously proposed idea of making it so you can have 6 megas would be the most unique and allow the most experimentation (and technically the closest to za) but I imagine it's a losing battle to ask for that.
I do think more standardization on balance vs realism would be good. Some pokemon like scrafty seem to be chosen just on what's realistic others like golisopod, Dragonite, and Lucario z not at all. I'm fine with either but it would be nice to pick one
The biggest thing though is if this is za turned based, or modern gen with za megas. Right now it definitely feels like the latter-nat dex moves, the lack of za move buffs (even ones not tied to mechanics like magnet bomb), heavy duty boots, etc. but yet it's still got a lot of restrictions on that-just za dex mons, no non za items, etc. I feel like things should be more za personally with move buffs, no natdex moves, maybe even plus moves, bit that isn't likely to happen. So I want to propose opening up the meta more. With the dlc 90% of gen 9 ou is already here so bringing back the last few mons (and any others) would be fine. Though I'm also ok with the pokemon staying limited....but at minimum bring back the items. We already have most the meta items, but are missing the fun niche ones and things like the weather rocks, terrain extenders, light clay, etc
Tldr I think the meta needs more direction and while I'd personally prefer a more realistic ability, closer to za, expiramental full team of megas one I realize that's unlikely. But I think more consistentcy with realism vs balance needs to be taken with mega abilities, and if we are going to allow things like heavy duty boots and nat dex movesets and not things like za move buffs then I think it's time to bring over more from the main games, at LEAST the remaining items like weather rocks, terrain extender and light clay
I feel like at least a little more direction is needed. Personally I think the previously proposed idea of making it so you can have 6 megas would be the most unique and allow the most experimentation (and technically the closest to za) but I imagine it's a losing battle to ask for that.
I do think more standardization on balance vs realism would be good. Some pokemon like scrafty seem to be chosen just on what's realistic others like golisopod, Dragonite, and Lucario z not at all. I'm fine with either but it would be nice to pick one
The biggest thing though is if this is za turned based, or modern gen with za megas. Right now it definitely feels like the latter-nat dex moves, the lack of za move buffs (even ones not tied to mechanics like magnet bomb), heavy duty boots, etc. but yet it's still got a lot of restrictions on that-just za dex mons, no non za items, etc. I feel like things should be more za personally with move buffs, no natdex moves, maybe even plus moves, bit that isn't likely to happen. So I want to propose opening up the meta more. With the dlc 90% of gen 9 ou is already here so bringing back the last few mons (and any others) would be fine. Though I'm also ok with the pokemon staying limited....but at minimum bring back the items. We already have most the meta items, but are missing the fun niche ones and things like the weather rocks, terrain extenders, light clay, etc
Tldr I think the meta needs more direction and while I'd personally prefer a more realistic ability, closer to za, expiramental full team of megas one I realize that's unlikely. But I think more consistentcy with realism vs balance needs to be taken with mega abilities, and if we are going to allow things like heavy duty boots and nat dex movesets and not things like za move buffs then I think it's time to bring over more from the main games, at LEAST the remaining items like weather rocks, terrain extender and light clay
Hon07rial why you keep "haha" all my posts lol
On a related but different note, are we still allowing ability changes for old megas? Or even base za ones? Definitely a lot that could use something extra
On a related but different note, are we still allowing ability changes for old megas? Or even base za ones? Definitely a lot that could use something extra
Sorry I was not targetting you specifically or anything, I just haha posts i disagree with cuz smogon doesn't have a thumbs down emoji and i happen to disagree with you quite a bit.
Fair enough I wasn't mad just noticed it happened multiple times lol
What part do you disagree with specifically, my critique of the meta or the final thought about at least opening the tier up to all items?