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Should Heavy-Duty Boots be allowed

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Unblockable STAB Volt Switch is ridiculously broken, especially on a Pokemon faster than Greninja. It becomes a riskless click that maintains big momentum and does massive damage all at the same time. If you wanted to alleviate Manectric's ground weakness, you would give it something like Strong Jaw, which buffs Ice Fang enough to threaten serious damage on Chomp and an OHKO on Zydog. Overheat already obliterates Excadrill and does 60% to Krookodile so they are less of an issue.

4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 292-348 (117.2 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 232-276 (64.9 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
ValiantValerie said:
Unblockable STAB Volt Switch is ridiculously broken, especially on a Pokemon faster than Greninja. It becomes a riskless click that maintains big momentum and does massive damage all at the same time. If you wanted to alleviate Manectric's ground weakness, you would give it something like Strong Jaw, which buffs Ice Fang enough to threaten serious damage on Chomp and an OHKO on Zydog. Overheat already obliterates Excadrill and does 60% to Krookodile so they are less of an issue.

4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 292-348 (117.2 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 232-276 (64.9 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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That making electric attacks less risky is kind of the whole point.
Mega Manectric currently is terrible. It's a generic Electric type with its only notable feature being it getting some fire attacks for hitting Grass types and being neutral to most Ground types. Too bad Fire moves are Manectric's only real coverage options, the rest being Signal Beam, Snarl, Mud Shot, and some normal moves. It really needs something to stand out since its only good feature is being fast.
And why does Mega Lopunny get a pass with U-turn when it has Scrappy, Sword Dance, priority, higher BP moves, dual STAB that is unresisted thanks to Scrappy, and better stats being both bulkier and having slightly higher Atk than Manectric's SpA?

Also Strong Jaws? We're trying to buff Mega Manectric. Dropping Intimidate so you can have non-STAB 65 BP (that can miss and makes contact) move off a 75 Atk hit a bit harder would absolutely devastate Manectric.
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 135-159 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 134-158 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You're giving up an entire ability and move slot just so Manectric can have Ice Fangs about as strong as Hyper Voice against an Ice weak target.
 
Cuddly said:
That making electric attacks less risky is kind of the whole point.
Mega Manectric currently is terrible. It's a generic Electric type with its only notable feature being it getting some fire attacks for hitting Grass types and being neutral to most Ground types. Too bad Fire moves are Manectric's only real coverage options, the rest being Signal Beam, Snarl, Mud Shot, and some normal moves. It really needs something to stand out since its only good feature is being fast.
And why does Mega Lopunny get a pass with U-turn when it has Scrappy, Sword Dance, priority, higher BP moves, dual STAB that is unresisted thanks to Scrappy, and better stats being both bulkier and having slightly higher Atk than Manectric's SpA?

Also Strong Jaws? We're trying to buff Mega Manectric. Dropping Intimidate so you can have non-STAB 65 BP (that can miss and makes contact) move off a 75 Atk hit a bit harder would absolutely devastate Manectric.
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 135-159 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Strong Jaw Manectric-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 134-158 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You're giving up an entire ability and move slot just so Manectric can have Ice Fangs about as strong as Hyper Voice against an Ice weak target.
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Well for one, I've already said you'd clikck Overheat on Excadrill and Krookodile. Ice Fang is specifically for those targets I mentioned

Lopunny's checks include: Slowbro, Skarmory, Gourgeist, Clefable: All of these have good forms of recovery, resist U-turn, some punish pivots with Rocky Helmet, and it is most importantly not STAB.
Manectric's checks include: Hoodra, Garchomp, Krookodile: None of these have good recovery, and Manectric goes unpunished for clicking the broken Volt Swith. Not to mention that its also simply, a strong STAB move.
Manectric can just click it recklessly infront of frailer Pokemon and many defensive staples (we have like 7? OU Water types) while Lopunny can get punished for clicking U-turn so it has to be careful.
 
ValiantValerie said:
Well for one, I've already said you'd clikck Overheat on Excadrill and Krookodile. Ice Fang is specifically for those targets I mentioned

Lopunny's checks include: Slowbro, Skarmory, Gourgeist, Clefable: All of these have good forms of recovery, resist U-turn, some punish pivots with Rocky Helmet, and it is most importantly not STAB.
Manectric's checks include: Hoodra, Garchomp, Krookodile: None of these have good recovery, and Manectric goes unpunished for clicking the broken Volt Swith. Not to mention that its also simply, a strong STAB move.
Manectric can just click it recklessly infront of frailer Pokemon and many defensive staples (we have like 7? OU Water types) while Lopunny can get punished for clicking U-turn so it has to be careful.
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The issue with suggesting Strong Jaws for Manectric is how little value you get out of your ability slot. It's solely for 2 Pokemon. One of which doesn't even do 50% if they invest into defenses and punishes you with Rough Skin and possibly Rocky Helmet chip.
That fact alone should really tell you that Strong Jaw Manectric is a bad idea.

As for checks, pretty much anything with good special bulk that isn't weak to Electric and Fire checks Mega Manectric. Kind of dubious how Slowbro is a check to Mega Lopunny, but Glowking isn't a check to Mega Manectric, and somehow neither is Clefable despite even physically defensive Clefables being 3HKO'd by Thunderbolt.
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also keep in mind that Mega Manectric, and Volt Switch not being able to hit Ground types isn't the main reason.
 
Cuddly said:
The issue with suggesting Strong Jaws for Manectric is how little value you get out of your ability slot. It's solely for 2 Pokemon. One of which doesn't even do 50% if they invest into defenses and punishes you with Rough Skin and possibly Rocky Helmet chip.
That fact alone should really tell you that Strong Jaw Manectric is a bad idea.

As for checks, pretty much anything with good special bulk that isn't weak to Electric and Fire checks Mega Manectric. Kind of dubious how Slowbro is a check to Mega Lopunny, but Glowking isn't a check to Mega Manectric, and somehow neither is Clefable despite even physically defensive Clefables being 3HKO'd by Thunderbolt.
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also keep in mind that Mega Manectric, and Volt Switch not being able to hit Ground types isn't the main reason.
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Those two Pokemon are the primary things holding it back, because STAB Volt Switch is one of the most insane moves in the game.

Glowking and Clefable most commonly deal with threats using Thunder Wave. Your Gallade, Starmie, Lopunny, Greninja are primarily forced out because they are heavily crippled by Thunder Wave, these frail breakers get very little opportunities to come in. Manectric is immune to this, it can straight up spam Thunderbolt infront of Clefable and burn all its healing pp, or Volt Switch at the wrong time and maintain insane momentum on your side. Glowking does better into Manectric true, but can not keep up as effectively with the momentum Manectric generates because it lacks Teleport. It's forced to take the full 80BP from Pursuit if it desires to switch out.

Strong Jaw wouldn't make Manectric a busted top 5 mega, but I think it's enough to make Manectric a solid B tier anti Offense Pokemon. Similar to how Eel acts vs Balance, since Manectric trades breaking power for such a high speed tier. I'd prefer it get something like Levitate or Pixilate but those don't make thematic sense, and Electric Surge wouldn't help Manectric overcome its obstacles. I don't think it needs an overturned custom to be viable though.
 
I haven't really seen Hawlucha-Mega, and well, while it's not terrible, I currently don't really like its ability. Hawlucha itself has an emphasis on Speed (Unburden), while the Pokédex entry of the mega clearly talks about it having a better attack and defense. Moreover, the mega gets a lot of Atk, Def, SpD, and no Speed at all, so I think having a Speed Moxie is... kind of weird? Not saying it's necessarily bad, just that it doesn't feel like something that would happen...

I think it's more likely to get an ability related to Defense, one way or the other. This is why I'd say:
- Stamina: I mean it has STAB on Body Press, and healing, and Taunt... and I think Stamina is likely. In Doubles it would be great to trigger (it resists Beat Up), and in this metagame, it would be able to switch into stuff like a random U-turn, or into Krookodile, or Chesnaught I guess?
- Fur Coat/Fluffy: Way less likely but it works better. I don't have to explain how effective it'd be to have a 78/100 physical bulk with Fur Coat or Fluffy I think? Good Speed already, Swords Dance, good Atk, etc, etc.
 
Lysion said:
I haven't really seen Hawlucha-Mega, and well, while it's not terrible, I currently don't really like its ability. Hawlucha itself has an emphasis on Speed (Unburden), while the Pokédex entry of the mega clearly talks about it having a better attack and defense. Moreover, the mega gets a lot of Atk, Def, SpD, and no Speed at all, so I think having a Speed Moxie is... kind of weird? Not saying it's necessarily bad, just that it doesn't feel like something that would happen...

I think it's more likely to get an ability related to Defense, one way or the other. This is why I'd say:
- Stamina: I mean it has STAB on Body Press, and healing, and Taunt... and I think Stamina is likely. In Doubles it would be great to trigger (it resists Beat Up), and in this metagame, it would be able to switch into stuff like a random U-turn, or into Krookodile, or Chesnaught I guess?
- Fur Coat/Fluffy: Way less likely but it works better. I don't have to explain how effective it'd be to have a 78/100 physical bulk with Fur Coat or Fluffy I think? Good Speed already, Swords Dance, good Atk, etc, etc.
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Maybe give it a moxie that can either boost attack, defense, or speed at random when it gets a KO, or maybe the boosts correspondence to how much HP it has when it gets a KO? Attack at high HP, defense at medium HP and speed at less HP (or maybe switch speed and attack around if too broken), Stamina is probably much better as an ability but why not give it smth more special than a speed boost/Moxie
 
I am growing a little tired of seeing Greninja in every single game and having to guess what its set and coverage is every game. That thing can do whatever it wants, protean 4 attacks both mega and non mega is broken, nasty plot is turbo broken. That thing is impossible to pin down, I would like if something was done about it instead of having to run banded extreme speed in every game from now on...
 
fluff!! said:
I am growing a little tired of seeing Greninja in every single game and having to guess what its set and coverage is every game. That thing can do whatever it wants, protean 4 attacks both mega and non mega is broken, nasty plot is turbo broken. That thing is impossible to pin down, I would like if something was done about it instead of having to run banded extreme speed in every game from now on...
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To be fair this was Greninja's og strat in gen 7 also I've literally made a Greninja called "what set am I", non shiny, male and nothing else.
 
ValiantValerie said:
Those two Pokemon are the primary things holding it back, because STAB Volt Switch is one of the most insane moves in the game.

Glowking and Clefable most commonly deal with threats using Thunder Wave. Your Gallade, Starmie, Lopunny, Greninja are primarily forced out because they are heavily crippled by Thunder Wave, these frail breakers get very little opportunities to come in. Manectric is immune to this, it can straight up spam Thunderbolt infront of Clefable and burn all its healing pp, or Volt Switch at the wrong time and maintain insane momentum on your side. Glowking does better into Manectric true, but can not keep up as effectively with the momentum Manectric generates because it lacks Teleport. It's forced to take the full 80BP from Pursuit if it desires to switch out.

Strong Jaw wouldn't make Manectric a busted top 5 mega, but I think it's enough to make Manectric a solid B tier anti Offense Pokemon. Similar to how Eel acts vs Balance, since Manectric trades breaking power for such a high speed tier. I'd prefer it get something like Levitate or Pixilate but those don't make thematic sense, and Electric Surge wouldn't help Manectric overcome its obstacles. I don't think it needs an overturned custom to be viable though.
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You’re acting like Mega Manectric is currently a top tier Pokemon and its only flaw is Garchomp and Zygarde-10%.
It’s not a top tier Pokemon currently. It’s actually far from it and it need a BIG BUFF to make it somewhat viable. And your suggestion to give it Strong Jaws is absolutely insane and would GREATLY NERF a Mega that’s already bad because you’re giving up Intimidate just so ICE FANG of all moves is strong enough to OHKO a frail Pokemon 4x weak to Ice, and not even 2HKO a Pokemon x4 weak to Ice.
Even in National Dex and before HP Ice was taken away from Mega Manectric here, it was still trash. So I have no clue how you came to the conclusion that Mega Manectric should get Strong Jaw and use its weaker offensive stat to buff it. An ability that also makes little sense thematically too.
It’s also not like I’m asking to give Mega Manectric Double Omniboosts either. “Electric Current” would be scary on an already good electric type. However Mega Manectric can’t hold Choice Specs or HDBs, has only moderate firepower, is frail without Intimidate, and its only boosting options are Lightning Rod and Charge Beam. It’s there turn a bad Mega into a Mega actually worth using.
 
Cuddly said:
You’re acting like Mega Manectric is currently a top tier Pokemon and its only flaw is Garchomp and Zygarde-10%.
It’s not a top tier Pokemon currently. It’s actually far from it and it need a BIG BUFF to make it somewhat viable. And your suggestion to give it Strong Jaws is absolutely insane and would GREATLY NERF a Mega that’s already bad because you’re giving up Intimidate just so ICE FANG of all moves is strong enough to OHKO a frail Pokemon 4x weak to Ice, and not even 2HKO a Pokemon x4 weak to Ice.
Even in National Dex and before HP Ice was taken away from Mega Manectric here, it was still trash. So I have no clue how you came to the conclusion that Mega Manectric should get Strong Jaw and use its weaker offensive stat to buff it. An ability that also makes little sense thematically too.
It’s also not like I’m asking to give Mega Manectric Double Omniboosts either. “Electric Current” would be scary on an already good electric type. However Mega Manectric can’t hold Choice Specs or HDBs, has only moderate firepower, is frail without Intimidate, and its only boosting options are Lightning Rod and Charge Beam. It’s there turn a bad Mega into a Mega actually worth using.
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No, I'm acting like Manectric is a Pokemon that is gatekept from viability entirely because of Garchomp and Zygarde, which is what I believe.

When it used Hidden Power, I'd argue it was a very threatening A- mega, as it could force many switches and maintain insane momentum, however it still had to outplay its checks because Garchomp (and Zyg50) at the time survived one Hidden Power. It's trash in National Dex because their power level is so much higher, National Dex had a lot more viable scarfers than ZAOU, has Ting-Lu, and the faster paced metagame makes a pivot bot less impressive.

ZAOU is rather slow with Balance being the best style, Manectric adores being 2nd only to Mega Greninja in speed and having multiple opportunities throughout the game to click Volt Switch. Electric Current would imo make it obnoxious and weaken Offense even more, since riskless Volt Switch is ridiculous. I'd prefer we make megas more honest and lower the power level instead of power creep since we have the choice
 
Just want to chime in here that I think unresisted unpunishable (like no helmet contact etc) STAB Volt Switch from 135 spatk (and 135 speed) seems really unhealthy.

But I also don't think ground types are the only reason why Mega Mane is low viability. I think that there are also non-ground type fat mons out there that Mane struggle to do much against. But this ties to earlier unhealthy part because teams shouldn't be limited to these fat counters / checks.

Mane won't get perfect Volt Switch predictions all the time, and can lose momentum once some other move is picked.

So perhaps I may suggest Magic Guard ? ... I'm not sure if this is also unhealthy, but I don't think its a good idea to take away what balances out Volt Switch. Or perhaps a custom ability that makes it immune to hazards but it can still be affected by other things (so a less potent MG),

Also: Since there's a lot of focus on buffing lower viablity Megas, then I think the broken banned Megas should be nerfed to the point of balancing out some S rank / A+ threats that are hard to deal with.
 
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Smogon user try not to put Magic Guard on everything challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

I do see the appeal of a fast Volt Switch user like Mega Manectric in a tier with limited immunities + you have Flamethrower to hit Excadrill + hazards are broken so pivoting moves are amazing. The problems Manectric has is that it has to 50/50 against scarf Exca comps on Volt Switch or Overheat which is risky + it has nothing to hit Zygarde and Garchomp. That is unless you want to do 30% to TankChomp with Ice Fang. But Manectric's biggest issue right now is that you could run Boots Jolteon, who also outspeeds about as much relevant stuff as Manectric does, but without using the Mega slot, with access to Calm Mind, and also access to Alluring Voice to hit both Chomp and Zygarde. Sure, having a worse MU into Exca is a tradeoff, but it's 1 out of the 3 relevant Ground matchups, and Excadrill is easier to play around than Chomp imo. Overall I'd say Jolteon is the better pick, and Jolteon is already a fringe pick to begin with.
 
What about a custom ability to boost fire moves from Mega Manectric ? Could help break through Garchomp over a few or handful of turns with smart play.

I'm also curious what people would brainstorm to change the abilities of Mega Gengar and Mega Lucario , so they aren't broken.
 
singaporygon said:
What about a custom ability to boost fire moves from Mega Manectric ? Could help break through Garchomp over a few or handful of turns with smart play.
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Personally I don't mind having older Megas be fringe picks, Intimidate is a decent ability already anyway and it's ok if it's outclassed by Jolteon. idk if it's worth it to create a custom ability for an older mega, atp just use Mega Manectric in NatDex lol

singaporygon said:
I'm also curious what people would brainstorm to change the abilities of Mega Gengar and Mega Lucario , so they aren't broken.
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Mega Gengar would be broken without an ability. This speed and spatk stat with Nasty Plot is just too much. Mega Lucario though, why not try something. Just give it something like Justified, I wouldn't mind having something that makes Ttar think twice when clicking Knock Off.

SwordIsBored said:
Mega Manectric is in a good place right now I think, it is better than most Megas with the niche of being a good Electric-type so we really don't have any intention of changing its ability.
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Any intention on removing Sharpness from Mega Gallade? Just so I know if I start writing an essay on why it's utterly broken
 
fluff!! said:
Any intention on removing Sharpness from Mega Gallade? Just so I know if I start writing an essay on why it's utterly broken
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If you asked me when the tier was new, I'd say yeah but it doesn't feel that good now that the tier has developed. It really struggles to get in to the point where I see a lot of players including myself sacking it, it doesn't really feel worth the Mega slot. On paper, it one shots everything at +2 but it is really hard to first switch in and then also get the Swords Dance boost on top of that.
 
fluff!! said:
Personally I don't mind having older Megas be fringe picks, Intimidate is a decent ability already anyway and it's ok if it's outclassed by Jolteon. idk if it's worth it to create a custom ability for an older mega, atp just use Mega Manectric in NatDex lol


Mega Gengar would be broken without an ability. This speed and spatk stat with Nasty Plot is just too much. Mega Lucario though, why not try something. Just give it something like Justified, I wouldn't mind having something that makes Ttar think twice when clicking Knock Off.


Any intention on removing Sharpness from Mega Gallade? Just so I know if I start writing an essay on why it's utterly broken
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Yeah I also don't mind having lower viability Megas too. I think having too many good viability Megas can make things really messy.

I can see that regarding Mega Gengar lmao, yes you are very correct.
Maybe if it got a custom version of Slow Start that halves its SpAtk and Speed for 5 turns xD.
 
fluff!! said:
Any intention on removing Sharpness from Mega Gallade? Just so I know if I start writing an essay on why it's utterly broken
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I get that it is (allegedly) broken and all of that but is this not what people wanted? Base form Gallade got it in gen 8 and people have been hoping it will be given to Mega Gallade since then. It is the ability that makes the most sense and it is probably something fans want.
 
Unironic suggestion for Mega Gengar: why not a clone of Mycelium Might?

Now it can’t Encore anything slower, and things like NP / Sub are contingent on switches to get their preferred value… which is fine bc we all know Mega Gar can force switches anyways. The moldy effect doesn’t really do anything for it, but whatever lol.

As for names, the thing travels to other dimensions, so smth like Dimensional Stir or Dimensional Eye would work!
 
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