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Lets actually talk about Mew in OU...
- Thread starter kd24
- Start date
Although I think it would be an interesting change to the metagame and I would love to see Garchomp lose his top spot he's maintained for so long. Mew would most certainly centralize the game, combine one of the largest move pools and 600 base stats and you have a definitive uber. You can argue his typing is bad but as stated by Dragontamer a pokemon needs to be Choiced just to get the KO. With his moveset he is far too unpredictable and could be considered a counter to every pokemon in OU. Just because a pokemon isn't used often in ubers doesn't make it OU.
again on garchomp, it has top spot for ages, rather then using the argument of moving down ubers and potentially breaking the metagame, why don't some pokes get shifted up to ubers, things in UU got bumped up to BL why are ubers moving down but no OU's moving up?
what mew will be is either a celebi replacement or a boosted smeargle, smeargle is BL because of its movepool, now we are talking about brining into OU a pokemon with almost the same movepool and far more stats, on paper its broken
what mew will be is either a celebi replacement or a boosted smeargle, smeargle is BL because of its movepool, now we are talking about brining into OU a pokemon with almost the same movepool and far more stats, on paper its broken
Maybe something should be done about that?
We're in the summer months. Can't we find 50 players or so willing to dedicated a couple of hours a day on Smogon for the next few months to play Ubers, generate results, and test out removing Ubers as needed to decentralize?
Again, I'm not against letting Mew into OU. There are plenty of guys in OU now that are very unpredictable as is (I'm looking at you Lucario!), but I don't see why we're rushing in Mew ahead of other guys that are looking to head in/out of OU as is.
Do you see what I did there? And I don't mean to pick on you, because a lot of people are doing it ITT, but seriously... you can only use the "BUT THIS GUY DOES THIS SO MEW ISN'T BROKEN" argument so many times. Repeating something doesn't make it more correct or more based in fact. Mew isn't being said it is broken because Garchomp is broken, or Gengar is broken, or Ambipom is broken, or Smeargle is broken, or Pichu is broken. It is being touted as broken because it is able to try its hand at any of the roles these Pokemon take up or at least provide coverage for them. When you have a Pokemon that can be tailored to any situation or any hole in your team, its strength level needs to come into question; if it can do ANY role well
If you're going to use anything Mew has as a comparison, use the proper "OU Theory" moveset and not the assumed Uber standard: NP, Taunt, Aura Sphere, Ice Beam/Shadow Ball (where Ice Beam is resisted by Slowbro and Tentacruel but offers coverage against Dragons and Shadow Ball offers mirror-match coverage and No Weak typing).
Please tell me what "key move" a Nasty Plot sweeper with Taunt needs when it has 100% no-weak or maximal type coverage with Taunt and "lol Damage" against its two "counters" in the event of Ice Beam replacing Shadow Ball.
Your posts assume Mew can only BP well or that all Mews must have "+2 Stat, BP... and Taunt because Mew needs Taunt w/ all that +Stat and BP." You're ignoring that Mew can do literally everything with its movepool, move tutor access and ability to use any TM/HM. The "best" set we have for Mew right now, that is the one that seems to be the most glaringly damaging to other teams in 4 moves without want for additional moveslots (this is a stretch; you can always use another moveslot for SOMETHING), has retarded damage output, taunt for any wall that attempts to shut it down, and has either no resistances or is only resisted by Pokemon it can just set up on until the resistance is irrelevant.
And I ask, why do people keep bringing up the Mew can do anything argument? Does this ability to do anything make Mew broken? If not, then why bring it up every single time? People need to start naming sets and EV's that would be broken for OU (which I see you did, good stuff)
And of the set you listed, what EV's, nature, and item are you giving that set? (before I start any arguments on how that Mew gets countered)
To be honest, Taunt is somewhat inferior on any Mew passing offensive boosts such as Swords Dance and Nasty Plot because it learns enough moves to threaten whatever it wants to after its already decent attacking stat is doubled into the 400s and beyond. Seriously, you hit all the psuedo hazers hard with any decent 2-move coverage (Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball standing out the most), and so Taunt's only advantage is to stop direct status.
In theory, a Baton Passing Mew cannot be stopped by defensive maneuvers like psuedo hazing; it has to be stopped by direct offense, and that is only analyzing one of many viable ways to run Mew.
In theory, a Baton Passing Mew cannot be stopped by defensive maneuvers like psuedo hazing; it has to be stopped by direct offense, and that is only analyzing one of many viable ways to run Mew.
I think the point you're missing is you have no idea how to counter that specific Mew. Do people really need to point out specific EV spreads and move sets when Mew can do all of it effectively? You do realize Mew has 100 base stats across the board right?
Exactly how are you going to figure out which counter to use against Mew? You're going to have to scout and guess, then hope you came prepared.
But thats great, you can counter 'Mew A'. What about 'Mew B'? 'Mew C'? This can go on forever. Mew's strength isn't as clear as say Kyogre, who just needs Water Spout and a Choice Scarf to wreck havoc. Mew's strength is that it is good enough to do everything really well, and it is the king of Baton Passing.
Also note, if you didn't bring the proper 'Mew C' counter, can you revenge kill it? That is easier said then done because of the 100 HP, Def, and Sp Def. Not to mention Mews speed could force a few things into Scarfing, which reduces their chances of OHKOing Mew.
I'm not sold that Mew is that horribly broken, but I can see its strengths and what would make it so dangerous.
im not saying this is particularly a good idea, but mew could even use rock polish, then nasty plot/ swords dance (hanging on with a focus sash if necessary) then BP to a recipient. this is actually quite easy to pull off for mew, and would lead to quite an easy sweep, because anything with double speed and doubled attack is going to kick the shit out of you
The only issue here is that it is easily Hazed or Phazed because Mew isn't doing anything directly threatening as you switch in and Haze/Phaze. This is why Taunting or directly attacking is preferred since you can directly eliminate the threat of losing your +2 stat ups.
Thats one of the best parts of Mew though, it doesn't have to pass its stat boosts. Its move pool is so massive that it can effectively use every stat up boost it can provide itself, which is all of them. If you want to be annoying, you can also lead people on by using Swords Dance then use a Special Attack to punish their switch in. Basically the same thing that ChainChomp does, except Mew can then BP that Swords Dance off to something else. Works just as well as Nasty Plot then EQing, etc.
This is a small nitpick, but Taunt is best used when passing defensive or speed boosts because, unlike Nasty Plot/Swords Dance, you cannot take advantage of the boost with attacks. So, covering only the +2 boosts, Agility/Barrier/Amnesia is best used in tandem with Taunt, and Nasty Plot/Swords Dance is best used in tandem with two attacks. With two stat boosts, you would probably stick with Taunt.
Basically, I just summed up my last two posts.
Scizor can do the same (minus taunt) and has (arguably) better typing.
i am all for un-banning mew. I feel that the community as a whole has the largest fear of the slightest over-centralization. The game was meant to be fun and people act like its their life. Whats the worst that could happen if you unban any poke? Oh no over-centralization for like a month. Then it gets fixed and they get rebaned. It's not as if once somthing gets unbaned it can't be re-baned. Just go out on a limb, thats where the fruit is. (or in this case endless possibilites with mew)
and poor speed...
I switched in Swampert... what are you going to do now?
Mew can taunt swampert, and deal a lot of damage with Psychic, Sball, or Aura Sphere.
Swampert can easily roar out Scizor.
True, but I was talking about standpoint of passing two boosts, that leaves mew with no attacks.
If having a lot of sets doesn't matter, how are you going to know the counter you're bringing in is going to be the correct one for the Mew I'm using? What game of Pokemon have you been playing where you get to see your opponent's IVs, EVs, Nature and hold item once they send something out? If you are given that information every time, I would have to agree that Mew's "unpredictability" wouldn't count for anything. Unfortunately, the game you're playing and the game Mew exists in are two entirely different things.
So basically an Orange can also provide you with a dose of Vitamin C, but is also a completely different fruit from an Apple?
Edit: I am not above making Mew available for testing. I do think, though, that testing will quickly reveal that he is far superior to Pokemon that have been banned from OU, such as Manaphy.
One thing I think people who favor unbanning Mew (and keep in mind that I would at least like to see it at least tested) should take into account...
When someone suggests a potentially broken Mew set and your reaction is "What nature and spread does it have? Let me know and I'll devise a cunning plan to foil it", whether or not you can in fact devise a cunning plan there is irrelevant. When you battle someone who pulls out that Mew, you are not going to ask them how its EVs are distributed. There could be multiple equally dangerous distributions even for the same set, and they're going to have the upper hand if you've cooked up some counter that only deals with that particular spread.
Again, I do not think that Mew's versatility alone is grounds for relegating it to uber, but anyone strongly maintaining that it is fair for OU would do well to keep in mind what they would have to do when facing Mew in an actual battle when considering their arguments.
One exercise that may be interesting is to look at your present team and ask yourself what alterations you would make to keep it competitive if Mew is added to the environment. If the answer is "not much", either you have a very good anti-Mew team or you've found that you're already able to deal with it, which may indicate that it's not overcentralizing. If you look at it and need to make major overhauls or feel obligated to add Mew yourself, then you've got some evidence that Mew may be too good. I don't really suggest bringing any of that forth to support an argument either way, but it may help you better understand Mew's potential impact and promote more informed opinions. Just a thought I had.
EDIT: I see that in the time I spent writing my post, Kijin has brought up basically the same point that I intended to. Sorry for the repetition.
When someone suggests a potentially broken Mew set and your reaction is "What nature and spread does it have? Let me know and I'll devise a cunning plan to foil it", whether or not you can in fact devise a cunning plan there is irrelevant. When you battle someone who pulls out that Mew, you are not going to ask them how its EVs are distributed. There could be multiple equally dangerous distributions even for the same set, and they're going to have the upper hand if you've cooked up some counter that only deals with that particular spread.
Again, I do not think that Mew's versatility alone is grounds for relegating it to uber, but anyone strongly maintaining that it is fair for OU would do well to keep in mind what they would have to do when facing Mew in an actual battle when considering their arguments.
One exercise that may be interesting is to look at your present team and ask yourself what alterations you would make to keep it competitive if Mew is added to the environment. If the answer is "not much", either you have a very good anti-Mew team or you've found that you're already able to deal with it, which may indicate that it's not overcentralizing. If you look at it and need to make major overhauls or feel obligated to add Mew yourself, then you've got some evidence that Mew may be too good. I don't really suggest bringing any of that forth to support an argument either way, but it may help you better understand Mew's potential impact and promote more informed opinions. Just a thought I had.
EDIT: I see that in the time I spent writing my post, Kijin has brought up basically the same point that I intended to. Sorry for the repetition.
But just look at some of my arguments! I have said nothing about a particular spread or anything but people in favor of ban are not being specific! What does "a metagame breakdown" mean? That mew needs to be countered or used yourself? Look at garchomp! Without a chomp counter you lose to one. Same with mew. Deoxys-s can switch into the bper and taunt it before it taunts you. Bronzong can boom,gyroball, or sleep the sweeper version. A cb weavile can most likely revenge kill a non-bper as most other versions will not have defensive spreads. Mew is just like the current threats albeit with better stats. You can't counter all of chomps sets with one poke. Same goes for mew. If there was one set that was IMPOSSIBLE for the OU metagame to counter, that warrents banning. Why is overcentralization a problem? Because UU pokes get brought up to counter a threat? Remind me why giving more pokes use is bad again? 8/10 teams pack a garchomp of some sort. Even more have Blissey. Mew would just be another OU threat that has multiple sets it can run. Some people think "Oh since one poke or a poke that is not currently use much can't counter every set another could run, its overcentralization and warrents baning" and frankly, I do not understand this. To refer to my previous argument, what stops us from, worst case senario, rebanning mew if testing proves him un-stoppable? A "meta-game breakdown" will never happen because if one starts we can use the power we exercise every day to keep ubers uber, and garchomp ou, to re-ban the problem and fix the meta-game. Just give mew a chance. You may be surprised.
Hope you liked my essay. If you read the whole thing i comend you.
Hope you liked my essay. If you read the whole thing i comend you.