Let's catalogue the ways in which PS does not replicate cart mechanics

[Beelzemon 2003]

@12-XVI In Gen I, Thunder and Gust never hit you while you're in the first turn of Fly, the same happens with Earthquake and Fissure, they don't hit a pokémon that is in the first turn of Dig. If you get stuck in the Air/Ground, the only attacks that can hit you are Bide and Swift, which are considered bad.

Adding a clause to prevent Dig and Fly from becoming broken is a necessity and also benefits those moves since it allows them to finally be used in the competitive game.

I already gave you the link to my semi-invincibility clause, but if for some reason you don't have time to read it, then I'll summarize it for you: if you get stuck in the air/ground, your next successful action must be using Dig, Fly or switch, if you're next successful action is not one of those you lose the game.

 

[12-XVI]

OK, so then the only real counters are to be careful with paralysis and to outstall the opponent.

Personally I still do not know whether these clauses are necessary. It seems that at worst these glitches are something that some troll would occasionally win with in low ladder and then the opponent could just forfeit. The strategy of abusing these glitches would probably be a nonviable way to instantly arrive at a wincon used only by low-ladder trolls. That does not seem nearly as bad as the viable jank we have now such as the binding moves, missing explosion, freezes, stupid CH rates, etc.

I think that if the moves are allowed as they are on cartridge then we would be closer to cartridge, the rules would not have to be more complex, and the metagame would not be any worse for it since these strategies would probably be nonviable.

 

[DDX2]

OK, so then the only real counters are to be careful with paralysis and to outstall the opponent.

Personally I still do not know whether these clauses are necessary. It seems that at worst these glitches are something that some troll would occasionally win with in low ladder and then the opponent could just forfeit. The strategy of abusing these glitches would probably be a nonviable way to instantly arrive at a wincon used only by low-ladder trolls. That does not seem nearly as bad as the viable jank we have now such as the binding moves, missing explosion, freezes, stupid CH rates, etc.

I think that if the moves are allowed as they are on cartridge then we would be closer to cartridge, the rules would not have to be more complex, and the metagame would not be any worse for it since these strategies would probably be nonviable.

We can allow a lot for it to be closer to cartridge. We can remove all clauses that are on Smogon's showdown. No Species clause. No Ubers Clause. No Sleep Clause. No banned-moves.
While Nintendo made semi-standards in the form of the poke-cup(?), nothing in a gameboy cartridge is stopping you from running 6 Mewtwos with Double Team, Dig, Amnesia, Psywave, or even better. Run Blizzard on a team using the Japanese cartridge for the 30% chance freeze.

Showdown and others, introduced these clauses because the community agreed that nobody does want to face the above scenario in some form or the other.

We introduced Species Clause so as not have to face teams of 6 Tauros, Chansey, Mewtwo, or whatever is considered S for its tier.
We introduced Ubers Clause so we didn't have to build teams based around or against Mew and especially Mewtwo.
We introduced Sleep Clause because we felt the Sleep status was too broken on cartridge (as opposed to Stadium).
We erroneously introduced Freeze Clause since other gens have it and because it's broken as a status, but it doesn't exist in Gen 1 Cartridge (only Stadium). Note for this, if we want Freeze Clause, we'd like have to limit/ban Freeze-inducing moves or when to use them (more likely).
In addition to that, as a standard, Double Team and Minimize were banned from all movesets, even on the Uber tier, because it was such a stall-fest that it made the game miserable to play.
And finally in addition to that, we have the glitched-move clause which we are of course arguing about which banned moves like Dig/Fly, Psywave, and soon to be others if this continues.

That said, I do agree that Dig/Fly, Psywave, etc should legal...but with Beezlemons clause. Without it, a pokemon, even on accident can literally win the game.
You paralyze my Articuno and it becomes fully paralyzed while it was in the air. Now nothing can hit it unless I use Fly, Dig, or Switch. Without that clause and the move legal, I can just use Ice Beam & Blizzard as much as I like without retaliation.

 

[12-XVI]

We can allow a lot for it to be closer to cartridge. We can remove all clauses that are on Smogon's showdown. No Species clause. No Ubers Clause. No Sleep Clause. No banned-moves.
While Nintendo made semi-standards in the form of the poke-cup(?), nothing in a gameboy cartridge is stopping you from running 6 Mewtwos with Double Team, Dig, Amnesia, Psywave, or even better. Run Blizzard on a team using the Japanese cartridge for the 30% chance freeze.

Showdown and others, introduced these clauses because the community agreed that nobody does want to face the above scenario in some form or the other.

We introduced Species Clause so as not have to face teams of 6 Tauros, Chansey, Mewtwo, or whatever is considered S for its tier.
We introduced Ubers Clause so we didn't have to build teams based around or against Mew and especially Mewtwo.
We introduced Sleep Clause because we felt the Sleep status was too broken on cartridge (as opposed to Stadium).
We erroneously introduced Freeze Clause since other gens have it and because it's broken as a status, but it doesn't exist in Gen 1 Cartridge (only Stadium). Note for this, if we want Freeze Clause, we'd like have to limit/ban Freeze-inducing moves or when to use them (more likely).
In addition to that, as a standard, Double Team and Minimize were banned from all movesets, even on the Uber tier, because it was such a stall-fest that it made the game miserable to play.
And finally in addition to that, we have the glitched-move clause which we are of course arguing about which banned moves like Dig/Fly, Psywave, and soon to be others if this continues.

Try readint my reply again, especially the bolded part:

I think that if the moves are allowed as they are on cartridge then we would be closer to cartridge, the rules would not have to be more complex, and the metagame would not be any worse for it since these strategies would probably be nonviable.

Compare Dig/Fly Abuse with binding moves (which is allowed):
- Binding moves are janky because they prevent the opponent from using a move, are luck-reliant, and sometimes they have to be outstalled which is boring.
- Dig/Fly Abuse is janky because it prevents the opponent wrong hitting with an attack, it's luck-reliant, and sometimes it has to be outstalled which is boring.
It's just as stupid as binding moves can be but it's less reliable. So it's a low ladder troll strategy at best. And you equated it with allowing 6 Mewtwo teams.

Unless this ruins the metagame it should not be banned IMO. And this is definitely not on par with what you equated it with. Why do we care so much about low ladder newbs getting trolled by trolls and their janky strategies? I think that being close to cartridge and having few rules are more important than protecting the "competitiveness" of battles between low ladder trolls using joke strategies and their 5-year old opponents.

You paralyze my Articuno and it becomes fully paralyzed while it was in the air. Now nothing can hit it unless I use Fly, Dig, or Switch. Without that clause and the move legal, I can just use Ice Beam & Blizzard as much as I like without retaliation.

You would probably get walled by Chansey, Starmie, Slowbro, Alakazam, or Cloyster. If you even get that far. You would first need to get paralysed and need to get FP at the right time.

 

[DDX2]

Try readint my reply again, especially the bolded part:

I don't see any bolded part...could you quote me which part is bolded so I can read it?

Compare Dig/Fly Abuse with binding moves (which is allowed):
- Binding moves are janky because they prevent the opponent from using a move, are luck-reliant, and sometimes they have to be outstalled which is boring.
- Dig/Fly Abuse is janky because it prevents the opponent wrong hitting with an attack, it's luck-reliant, and sometimes it has to be outstalled which is boring.
It's just as stupid as binding moves can be but it's less reliable. So it's a low ladder troll strategy at best. And you equated it with allowing 6 Mewtwo teams.

Unless this ruins the metagame it should not be banned IMO. And this is definitely not on par with what you equated it with. Why do we care so much about low ladder newbs getting trolled by trolls and their janky strategies? I think that being close to cartridge and having few rules are more important than protecting the "competitiveness" of battles between low ladder trolls using joke strategies and their 5-year old opponents.

[/QUOTE]

...no...that's not what I equated at all. You stated.
"I think that if the moves are allowed as they are on cartridge then we would be closer to cartridge, the rules would not have to be more complex, and the metagame would not be any worse for it since these strategies would probably be nonviable. "

I stated that that technically if we want to be closer to cartridge then nothing is stopping us from running 6 Mewtwos but that we have rules/clauses to prevent weirdness like that. When it comes to jankiness, it is very relevant since it makes a pokemon invincible to reprisal without the clause.

You would probably get walled by Chansey, Starmie, Slowbro, Alakazam, or Cloyster. If you even get that far. You would first need to get paralysed and need to get FP at the right time.

My dude, I chose Articuno as an example since it can freeze peacefully unless you have an ice-type on your team. Not as an end-all. I could have also stated Alakazam, Slowbro, Rhydon, Zapdos, or Dodrio.

You are right that it is not a common problem, but it is a problem that a skilled player can easily take advantage of when it does happen.

I'm not entirely sure why you are so opposed to Dig/Fly being legal, but with the clause that prevents a player from taking advantage of when their pokemon becomes invincible since that would ruin the metagame.

 

[12-XVI]

I bolded the part in my quote, not in my original post.

I stated that that technically if we want to be closer to cartridge then nothing is stopping us from running 6 Mewtwos but that we have rules/clauses to prevent weirdness like that. When it comes to jankiness, it is very relevant since it makes a pokemon invincible to reprisal without the clause.

What stops us from allowing 6 Mewtwo teams is the fact that that would ruin the metagame. We want to get as close to cartridge as we can without ruining the competitiveness of the metagame. However there is a good chance that Dig/Fly Abuse would not even affect the metagame, let alone ruin it. We allow all kind of stupid stuff like ~10% 1HKO moves (Ice Beam and Blizzard) just because it does not ruin the metagame enough, yet when it comes to Dig/Fly Abuse —which probably would not ruin the metagame at all— we suddenly pull out the ban hammer because…why? Just to have an extra ban? If we do not ban to preserve the competitiveness and fun of the metagame, then what are we banning for?

My dude, I chose Articuno as an example since it can freeze peacefully unless you have an ice-type on your team.

So are you saying that Fly Articuno would have a significant effect on the metagame?

I could have also stated Alakazam, Slowbro, Rhydon, Zapdos, or Dodrio.

Which of those Pokemon would make Dig/Fly Abuse viable?

I'm not entirely sure why you are so opposed to Dig/Fly being legal, but with the clause that prevents a player from taking advantage of when their pokemon becomes invincible since that would ruin the metagame.

Only if people would consistently win with it. Otherwise it would hardly even affect the metagame. When did the Dig/Fly Abuse ruin the metagame? Or are you just speculating?

 

[DDX2]

I bolded the part in my quote, not in my original post.

I see it now, not sure why I didn't see it the first time. I did sort of address it in all the points of pro-clause which you mentioned as being unncessary.

What stops us from allowing 6 Mewtwo teams is the fact that that would ruin the metagame. We want to get as close to cartridge as we can without ruining the competitiveness of the metagame. However there is a good chance that Dig/Fly Abuse would not even affect the metagame, let alone ruin it. We allow all kind of stupid stuff like ~10% 1HKO moves (Ice Beam and Blizzard) just because it does not ruin the metagame enough, yet when it comes to Dig/Fly Abuse —which probably would not ruin the metagame at all— we suddenly pull out the ban hammer because…why? Just to have an extra ban? If we do not ban to preserve the competitiveness and fun of the metagame, then what are we banning for?

OHKO moves are a fact of the game. Charizard gets knocked out by Hydro Pump, Venusaur by Fire Blast, and so forth. The Dig/Fly gets the ban hammer

So are you saying that Fly Articuno would have a significant effect on the metagame?

It would. Even without the invincibilty glitch it gives it a flying STAB move which allows it to now attack Chansey without needing to use Double Edge. Not game-breaking, but Fly on Articuno and Moltres *may* put them in OU/1U. It would also improve Pidgeot and Arcanine in RU/3U.

Which of those Pokemon would make Dig/Fly Abuse viable?

Only if people would consistently win with it. Otherwise it would hardly even affect the metagame. When did the Dig/Fly Abuse ruin the metagame? Or are you just speculating?

Theoretically? All of them. I do speculate since those moves have been banned for a long time, but you don't have to do play practice to realise that when you add moves that are good in general it can change things.

Dig/Fly will improve movesets of quite a few pokemon across all tiers, and we do know people will also test to see if they can create new broken teams if there's no clause. No shortage of paralysis causing pokemon common teams in OU between Alakazam, Chansey, and Starmies T-Wave to Snorlax and Tauros Body Slam.

Even if it's discoved that are no ways to take advantage in every day gameplay, Articuno and Moltres, two common-ish OU pokemon will run it on their regular sets since it does improve them in general, and there will be games where you will not be able to wall them. Maybe you don't have any Ice types to protect against Freeze status. Maybe your Chansey died early due to a risk you took. Even if it's 1/1000 games that even a skilled player can take advantage of. Do you want to see a tournament game won by someones Moltres just because the opponent was literally unable to attack it and then tell them that's natural?

It isn't. The invulnerability isn't part of the effect, no more than Psywave desyncing and freezing the game is an effect.
But we can put personal accountability on those moves.
If you get unvulnerbale we use Beezles clause, and if Psywave gets unbanned, but you get desync, you lose the game.

 

[12-XVI]

OHKO moves are a fact of the game. Charizard gets knocked out by Hydro Pump, Venusaur by Fire Blast, and so forth. The Dig/Fly gets the ban hammer

I meant things like Fissure and Guillotine.

It would. Even without the invincibilty glitch it gives it a flying STAB move which allows it to now attack Chansey without needing to use Double Edge. Not game-breaking, but Fly on Articuno and Moltres *may* put them in OU/1U. It would also improve Pidgeot and Arcanine in RU/3U.

Theoretically? All of them. I do speculate since those moves have been banned for a long time, but you don't have to do play practice to realise that when you add moves that are good in general it can change things.

Dig/Fly will improve movesets of quite a few pokemon across all tiers, and we do know people will also test to see if they can create new broken teams if there's no clause. No shortage of paralysis causing pokemon common teams in OU between Alakazam, Chansey, and Starmies T-Wave to Snorlax and Tauros Body Slam.

Even if it's discoved that are no ways to take advantage in every day gameplay, Articuno and Moltres, two common-ish OU pokemon will run it on their regular sets since it does improve them in general, and there will be games where you will not be able to wall them. Maybe you don't have any Ice types to protect against Freeze status. Maybe your Chansey died early due to a risk you took. Even if it's 1/1000 games that even a skilled player can take advantage of. Do you want to see a tournament game won by someones Moltres just because the opponent was literally unable to attack it and then tell them that's natural?

It isn't. The invulnerability isn't part of the effect, no more than Psywave desyncing and freezing the game is an effect.
But we can put personal accountability on those moves.
If you get unvulnerbale we use Beezles clause, and if Psywave gets unbanned, but you get desync, you lose the game.

I guess you're right. It seems like Dig/Fly Abuse may become significant if it were allowed. I've also been thinking about Alakazam with Dig, Recover, Reflect/T-Wave, and Psychic; paired with Gengar or Exeggutor to explode on Chansey. That might be a somewhat reliable way to win with this strategy. And to top it off all those Pokemon would still useful outside of this strategy as well. I wish that I could try it out on the ladder.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

@DDX2 I agree with you, if Dig or Fly are eventually allowed on Showdown, the Semi-Invincibility Clause should be enforced to prevent them from becoming broken. When my friends and I play with the real games (real cartridges, Virtual Console), we enforce the Semi-invincibility Clause because we don't want someone to win just because his pokémon got stuck in the air/ground.

 

[DDX2]

I meant things like Fissure and Guillotine.

I guess you're right. It seems like Dig/Fly Abuse may become significant if it were allowed. I've also been thinking about Alakazam with Dig, Recover, Reflect/T-Wave, and Psychic; paired with Gengar or Exeggutor to explode on Chansey. That might be a somewhat reliable way to win with this strategy. And to top it off all those Pokemon would still useful outside of this strategy as well. I wish that I could try it out on the ladder.

The OHKO moves of Fissure, Guillotine, and Horn Drill are also banned. They've been banned since the very early days of online battles along with Double Team.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rb/formats/ou/

I can only presume that teams were running them very effectively if they were banned.

@DDX2 I agree with you, if Dig or Fly are eventually allowed on Showdown, the Semi-Invincibility Clause should be enforced to prevent them from becoming broken. When my friends and I play with the real games (real cartridges, Virtual Console), we enforce the Semi-invincibility Clause because we don't want someone to win just because his pokémon got stuck in the air/ground.

Opposite, I agree with *you*. It was your idea and arguments that I was inspired by.
I do hope this lets all desyncing moves being unbanned. I understand there is a fair difference between "secondary status" force to use Fly/Dig/Switch to automatically lose the game, but the luck of a desync is even worse than accuracy, so it makes sense to allow them under about the same logic as other moves.

 

[Plague von Karma]

There's one thing Ortheore talks about in the OP that I really think should be discussed.

There is one detail on the sim that I feel a huge amount of people overlook. Due to Sleep Clause making your sleep moves fail, you can do something on the sim that you cannot hope to do on cartridge: effectively skip a turn.

The way Sleep Clause is enforced on-sim is inherently different from cartridge because the way it was designed is inspired by the Stadium games: they will fail when they're in a situation where Sleep Clause would be violated. On cartridge, you cannot get this. Instead, you will literally just put the opponent to sleep or miss. There is no scenario in any Gen 1 cartridge game where you can experience a move being forced to fail should it violate a rule. I'm not entirely sure whether it's possible in some later cartridge games...I think there is an instance somewhere, but it slips my mind. Here's the thing though, you can basically skip a turn here.

The ability to skip a turn, while undesirable most of the time, is a technically usable technique. Of course, it's only in exceptionally niche circumstances. Two such examples can be PP Stalling and PP Conservation. While skipping a turn is generally awful as it's a free turn for the opponent, it is a strategy. An impossible strategy on a cartridge. As we know, it's very possible to end a Gen 1 OU game with two PP Stalling Chanseys. You can spam Thunder Wave to PP Stall as Chansey if you're in a situation where doing nothing is favourable. It'll either fail or you paralyze something when they switch to advance the game state. Against a sleeping opponent, this can turn into a game loss as the opponent just switched out and purposefully put their own mon to sleep. These two cases should have entirely different risk-reward factors.

The situations where you have no choice but to violate Sleep Clause are incredibly rare and extreme; I can't really think of a game loss situation that isn't deserved when you're in a situation like that. Here's my counterpoint: why should you get a situation where you can Struggle for free thanks to infinite failures/misses when you cannot get that on the cartridge end? Is this or is this not a simulator of the actual games? Let the dice roll, and hand the game loss. The only way to feasibly violate Sleep Clause if you're not a drooling idiot is to be in a last Pokemon situation with only Sleep move PP left, and the opponent has a slept Pokemon in the back. I'm 90% sure you would lose that game anyway. If you were in a situation where winning was mathematically possible, then you just got the short end of the deal, just like any other game where you lose to hax.

Let's say there's a Chansey mirror going on. PP Stalling is afoot. One player has their own Sing Chansey left. The other has a healthy Counter Chansey, and an Exeggutor slept by a now-fainted Jynx in the back. On cartridge, this is a super good situation for the Counter Chansey player, as they can just PP stall until the Sing Chansey is forced to violate Sleep Clause. There is no scenario where Sing Chansey can win in this situation unless Counter Chansey saw exceptionally heavy usage prior. Sing is likely to hit as it was likely used like, twice at most during a real game. However, there is a chance they can Struggle if they somehow miss all 22 times in the scenario I'm setting out. On the sim, however, they are guaranteed to get to Struggle as they are barred from violating Sleep Clause: Sing will always be forced to fail. The inaccuracy here is very clear. This also draws out the game even more than it needs to be, and Chansey mirrors can take an upwards of 100 turns sometimes. Allowing Sing to fail infinitely will add 22-23 turns to these mirrors. It's made worse by the fact we can't modify PP to reduce the chance of a Sleep Clause violation (though this is planned to be added to the sim eventually).

As Ortheore suggested, it is very easy to grey out the option until you are in a situation where you have no choice but to violate Sleep Clause. I, however, believe it should be left available and have a warning before clicking it. Y'know, the second option. This allows players to take the risk to violate Sleep Clause for the sake of skipping a turn. This would be accurate to cartridge situations, as having the option greyed out is essentially handing a Disabled status to the Pokemon in play. Thus, you lose this objectively bad option. The issue here is that it is an option.

Here's how my proposition should play out, in my opinion.

1. The opponent has a slept Pokemon. You try to click a Sleep move again.
2. Flash a window saying "Choosing this option risks violating Sleep Clause, potentially losing you the game. Proceed with the action?"
3. The following happens:
   • If they're slept: you lose the game.
   • If they're not slept: the game continues as normal.

Fairly straightforward. Greying out the option removes a part of the game, in my opinion. This would remove the ability to take a calculated risk - a bad one that isn't in your favour, I might add - to skip a turn. It would also essentially be backseat play, as you're essentially saying "hey you should never do that" and "physically" forcing the player to not do something that is possible. As such, it isn't simulating a real competitive game. Allowing players to try and use that option is fair. Let them give the opponent some free elo for taking a horrid gamble that's a free turn for the opponent anyway.

I'm sure many will say that the Sleep Clause "Mod" is fine as-is and has been used for ages, but I feel that there should be some discourse on this. Pokemon Showdown is lauded as the most accurate to Pokemon Cartridge simulator out there. Tons of research on mechanics are done every day to have it meet this reputation. However, there is a lot of occasions where there are archaic, years-old rulings and "mods" are applied. Where do we draw the line for accuracy? This is a fundamental mechanic of the game, after all.

I am personally for Sleep Clause, I feel it's a very important rule that props up the competitive integrity of the game. However, I feel it should be accurate to how it would be enforced in a real-life event. It's been done for years, after all. Of course, these rare situations where players have no choice but to violate Sleep Clause will happen, and those who try to miss (if the grey out option isn't used) will get their just desserts, but isn't this literally how it would work out on cartridge? Reality can be sad sometimes.