Resource Let's Go C&C Discussion Thread

Eve

bouncy bubble
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
This thread's purpose is to discuss potential changes, any onsite errors, and suggestions on what to add, or any questions or concerns about the project.

Only Pokemon ranked on the LGPE OU Viability Rankings will receive an analysis. If you feel a Pokemon should have an analysis but doesn't have one currently, please go there and explain why the Pokemon should be ranked!
 

Eve

bouncy bubble
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Many old LGPE analyses may still have mentions of Mega Gengar that have been overlooked! If you find any of these, please do let us know here as well.
I will give you an alomomola react for your troubles
 
Last edited:
Analyses with Mega Gengar mentions:

Alakazam-Mega
Beedrill-Mega
Dragonite
Dugtrio-Alola
Eevee-Starter
Exeggutor-Alola
Gyarados-Mega
Melmetal
Mew
Muk-Alola
Rhydon
Snorlax
Zapdos
 
  • Love
Reactions: Eve
I don't mean to double post, but I don't see Poliwrath's analysis anywhere on the site despite it being listed as "completed".
 
Analyses with Mega Gengar mentions:

Alakazam-Mega
Beedrill-Mega
Dragonite
Dugtrio-Alola
Eevee-Starter
Exeggutor-Alola
Gyarados-Mega
Melmetal
Mew
Muk-Alola
Rhydon
Snorlax
Zapdos
^This still has not been acted upon, all of those still mention mega gengar, can confirm. In addition:

Mega Aerodactyl does not mention alolan duggy in team options despite having amazing synergy, and also mentions being weak to aqua jet even though the most viable pokemon that would have aqua jet outside Other Options is Kabutops.
Mega Beedrill Should mention pokemon with fire moves that can force out melmetal in team options, the moveset should be U-turn, Drill run, Poison Jab, and X scissor with roost slashed on it, it currently has X scissor in OO. It also should have adamant listed first, then Jolly slashed, rather than adamant not being mentioned at all, I suspect it was like this because it has not been updated for the gengar ban.
Melmetal has an outdated set, superpower has no place being slashed there, should not even be in OO imo, and toxic melmetal is standard, it should be the first in a pair of slashed moves, not in OO. Twave is also getting enough use to be perhaps slashed.
The Mew analysis is ever changing, up to Eve probably if its worth updating, she has the most exp with the mon and wrote the analysis.
Muk-Alola should have modest in Other Options, lets it do more damage to melmetal, potentially OKHO rhydon, and do more damage reliably to mew when burnt with dark pulse.
Sassy Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. Melmetal: 84-100 (40 - 47.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Modest Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. Melmetal: 90-108 (42.8 - 51.4%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sassy Muk-Alola Giga Drain vs. Rhydon: 152-180 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3%
ModestMuk-Alola Giga Drain vs. Rhydon: 164-196 (91.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3%
Sassy Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Mew: 86-104 (49.1 - 59.4%)
Modest Muk-Alola Dark Pulse vs. Mew: 72-86 (41.1 - 49.1%)
Sassy burned Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Mew: 43-52 (24.5 - 29.7%)
Poliwrath has some very poor movepool choices, Superpower should be in OO with low kick as the sole fighting option on the set, scald should be OO, not slashed, Seismic Toss and EQ hit everything weaker then poliwraths other moves, and are inferior options to ice punch, which should be on the set, not in OO.
Sandslash should have Counter slashed in front of rock slide, rock slide is weak and handles flyers worse than toxic, Counter lets you OHKO melmetal and rip massive amounts of damage into an opposing team after something like a Mega Beedrill U turn, Potentially OHKOing zaptos after rocks and bringing mew to under 10%.
Snorlax should have crunch at least slashed, one of the main reasons you choose lax is as a zam check, helps with gengar and a mew that won't burn you too.
the Starmie set is lowkey a mess, Hydro pump should be the main option slashed with something else, scald struggles to pressure mew, does jack to mel and muk if you dont burn, and burns things like mew and zaptos that you want to toxic, definitely not the primary option. Psychic should be slashed, not in OO, there is no need for toxic and twave to be slashed in the format that they are in.

A lot of this is nitpicky and can be ignored, the mega gengar stuff is kinda a problem tho. There are some issues in the analysis of lower viability pokemon like Omastar, but those are not as important.



EDIT: Whoops I hit reply instead of preview, gimme 15 min or so I'll have this post completed
EDIT2: done
 
Last edited:
(at minimum zapdos, muk-a, zard x, zap, gyara, eevee-s, melm all still have m gengar mentions. assume that prob means all the ones collesque listed do but those are the ones i just checked)

i also second most of the set revisions particularly everything collesque said about the poliwrath set (also adding adamant to m-bee). these are essentially m-gengar issues even if the set "doesnt mention m-gengar anymore" as the reason poliwrath ran earthquake was to prevent giving m-gar low risk switch in opportunities. (idk why stoss was ever mentioned.) if poliwrath is running a third attack it should basically always be ice punch. also the speed drop required for scald is very important bc it leaves poliwrath slower than both sandslash-k and -speed nidoqueen. the reason for scald was mostly on superpower sets but low kick is better anyway. the main set should prob just be low kick, waterfall, toxic (hypnosis slashed or in oo), ice punch.

also there are various sentences in the poli analysis that are just blatantly wrong. eg "Seismic Toss provides a more reliable method of damage output against Pokemon that resist Poliwrath's STAB moves like Clefable and Mega Venusaur" clefable does not resist waterfall and stoss is most definitely not a more reliable method of damage output, not to mention waterfall's flinch chance. "Mega Aerodactyl or even regular Aerodactyl can take care of the Flying-types that Poliwrath struggles with" idk what 'flying types' this is referring to, zapdos is not exactly a great matchup for m-aero, and poliwrath doesnt struggle with dragonite (even without ice punch poliwrath can still hit it with toxic) if anything ice punch poliwrath protects m-aero from agility dragonite, and poliwrath semi-checks m-aero tho i assume m-aero wasnt intended to be included in this mention of "flying types". m-aero does help with dodrio lol.

honestly there are serious issues throughout the poliwrath analysis, many but not all of them are due to m-gar ban, maybe it should be taken down and reopened for editing or idk
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eve
(at minimum zapdos, muk-a, zard x, zap, gyara, eevee-s, melm all still have m gengar mentions. assume that prob means all the ones collesque listed do but those are the ones i just checked)

i also second most of the set revisions particularly everything collesque said about the poliwrath set (also adding adamant to m-bee)...
These do not have m-gengar mentions, they have regular gengar mentions or no mentions at all. The only issue still present is because mega gengar was sometimes replaced with "gengar", gengar appears more threatening or viable than it really is. iirc Lilburr made edits sometime after my original post, I know she replaced all mentions of mega gengar, and she slashed adamant on mega bee and provided reasoning. I'm not aware of anything else she did.

I agree that Poliwrath is a good candidate for a pretty large overhaul, to a much more serious degree than the other Pokemon I mentioned. There are probably multiple others that fit this category as well, but the ones off the top of my head would be Melmetal, Rhydon and Mega Gyarados. Melmetal is something I know Eve as well has expressed interest in a rework, it's not that bad but it's obviously an incredibly important Pokemon in the meta so the analysis should reflect the current meta very well, which it does not. Mega Gyarados has many GP errors, many statements that are just plain incorrect, Dragon Tail should also be slashed. Rhydon is also very outdated and contains a ton of poor wording. If you'll let me rant for a second:
Overview
Boasting great physical bulk and access to Stealth Rock, Rhydon carves a niche in LGPE OU as a reliable Stealth Rock user"Reliable Stealth Rock setter" is such a used term that it seems customary, but it should be kept in mind that Rhydon is a Stealth Rocker notoriously UNreliable in getting up rocks compared to its competition. You use Rhydon so it can serve an extra role as a wallbreaker and strong physical wall, if you want reliable rocks, you choose Nidoqueen or Sandslash, if not Mew. Its monstrous base 130 Attack stat combined with its great STAB coverage allows it to dish out solid damage on many of its switch-ins for another Pokemon to take care of late-game. However, Rhydon suffers from a middling base 45 Special Defense 45 is not middling, it is the lowest spedef possible on a fully evolved Pokemon in this tier, making it difficult to switch into most special attackers like Gengar, Mega Alakazam, and Clefable. Additionally, while Rhydon's typing does provide nifty resistances to Rock-, Normal-, Electric-, and Flying-type attacksThis feels like padding, anyone can /weak Rhydon. There are no relevant flying type attackers, besides maybe Dodrio? Resisting rock is hardly notable if you're also weak to Earthquake, and normal is not the peak of relevancy either. I am surprised that a resistance to fire is not mentioned, because it's pretty important for Rhydon to check both mega Charizard's, and get up rocks on a fire blast Mew lacking ice beam, notably allowing it to check Zapdos, it leaves Rhydon weak to common coverage such as Ice-, Grass-, Water-, and Steel-type attacksSmall problem here would be Steel being mentioned as coverage, when it's only relevant as Melmetal's STAB, large problem here would be Ground not being mentioned in the "common coverage Rhydon is weak to" list, as being weak to ground is a huge determination of Rhydon's effectiveness or viability, preventing it from switching directly into anything that may carry them such as Melmetal, Poliwrath, and Alolan Muk. Finally, Rhydon faces stiff competition from other Stealth Rock setters in the tier; Aerodactyl and Alolan Dugtrio Rhydon does face stiff competition as a Stealth Rock setter, but it does not face it from Aerodactyl and Alolan Dugtrio, 2 Pokemon Rhydon actually preforms better as a rocker than. Nidoqueen is mentioned later on which is good, but Sandslash and Mew should be mentioned here. both have a much higher Speed stat than Rhydon's poor base 40, allowing them to outspeed key threats such as Mew, Melmetal, and Mega Gyarados, while Nidoqueen can utilize Super Fang to whittle down bulkier threats and also has a significantly better matchup against Mega Venusaur.

Set Information
Stealth Rock is Rhydon's main niche in the metagame, allowing it to permanently cripple Pokemon weak to Rock-type attacks including Mega Beedrill and Mega Charizard X. Rock Slide and Earthquake hit everything in the tier for neutral or super effective damageMaybe its just me but I feel like it should be more clear that these moves only hit everything in the tier for neutral damage when in conjunction with each other, wording rn says otherwise. and hit hard coming off Rhydon's high Attack stat. Toxic is able to cripple bulky switch-ins that may otherwise be able to switch into anything else on the set, such as Poliwrath and Mew. An Impish nature maximizes Rhydon's defensive potential, allowing it to take hits easier from the likes of Dragonite and Mega Beedrill. On the other hand, Jolly allows Rhydon to outspeed Alolan Muk, which has a chance to OHKO Rhydon with Mega Drain. Jolly should be in OO, not slashed, it is a tech option to lure and remove Alolan Muk from the opposing team, not something that should be considered every time you build a set for this Pokemon. Adamant on the other hand, should be slashed, because the main draw to using Rhydon is to have a rocker with powerful wallbreaking potential, and Adamant works well with Rhydon. Adamant Rhydon is also found on the popular sample team Beenite, and is the set given on the damage calculator, so it's exclusion could be confusing.
Not a huge issue but it's possible Counter should be considered as a slash.

Usage Tips
Rhydon should attempt to get Stealth Rock on the field as soon as possible. Ideally, Rhydon should remain healthy in your party as a backup defensive check to foes like Zapdos. Its ability to come into Zapdos safely gives it time to set up Stealth Rock after forcing a switch. After Stealth Rock has been set up, Rhydon's enormous base 130 Attack stat and Rock typing allow it to switch directly into foes it beatsIts high attack and Rock typing do not allow it to switch into Pokemon it can beat, its high HP and ground typing allow for that and deal powerful neutral damage to switch-ins using its STAB Rock Slide and Earthquake. Toxic can be used on predicted switches to threats like Poliwrath that could otherwise force Rhydon out, effectively crippling them and allowing another team member to take care of itUnsure of how to fix it but this line does not provide more info than the Toxic section of set info did.

Team Options
Pokemon that can threaten out Water-types such as Mega Venusaur and ZapdosBeen ignoring GP errors up to this point, but this really obstructs meaning. 2 birds could be killed with 1 stone if examples of water types were provided help beat Rhydon's counters so that it can come in freely to set up Stealth Rock to help the team. In addition, the reverse is trueWhile we're on the topic of GP tho, pointless double transition statement here for Water-type teammates, which appreciate Rhydon's ability to take down ZapdosI wouldn't say Rhydon takes down Zapdos? It's an electric immune that can switch in, sure, but Zapdos's role is typically too important for it to stay in on a Rhydon and click toxic, and it can't click tbolt, they would almost always just click U-turn. This could be reworded to Water-types appreciating someone that can switch into Zapdos, because they are often forced out by the bird so that they can switch in freely. Paralysis and burn spreaders like Melmetal and Mew help Rhydon either outspeed and dismantle a faster threat or survive certain hits from threats such as opposing Melmetal and Mega GyaradosExamples are provided for Pokemon Rhydon appreciates being burned, examples should also be provided for Pokemon Rhydon appreciates being paralyzed. I couldn't really find any relevant examples of this besides Eevee-S though, so maybe the para section should be nixed. Mew in particular can check threats to Rhydon such as Starmie, Poliwrath, and Mega Venusaur.

Other Options
Dragon Tail is an option to force switches and deal chip damage in conjunction with Stealth Rock. Substitute is an option, allowing Rhydon to still attack or spread Toxic even when up against a potential check by using Substitute on a predicted switch. Sub offers Rhydon exceptionally little. Rhydon is so slow if you use it you're predicting a switch, in which case you should just cover that switch with toxic or an attack, not waste 25% health to do the same thing. You also can't get it up for free vs status, because you are outsped by every status user except Snorlax. Thanks to Rhydon's solid physical bulk, it can potentially run Counter on a lead set to scare out physical attackers. However, Counter is fairly unreliable and requires Rhydon to sacrifice a moveslot for it, which is hard to justify. Finally, Megahorn is an option, as it deals more damage against Mew; however, Toxic cripples Mew more during a match and is useful against a wider variety of threats.

checks and counters are mostly ok.

whole thing could use another round through GP as well.

And there are a bunch of mons that don't necessarily need a rewrite, they just have like, wrong moves slashed, or a sub optimal nature. That could be slowly fixed overtime i think, dunno the process of this type of stuff.
 

Lilburr

splishy splash
is a Tutoris a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
UU Leader
These do not have m-gengar mentions, they have regular gengar mentions or no mentions at all. The only issue still present is because mega gengar was sometimes replaced with "gengar", gengar appears more threatening or viable than it really is.
This is mostly just bc it's actually quite hard to edit mentions to be more accurate without fully overhauling things - this is something that Eve has talked to me about doing in the future for sure (as you said later in your post). I changed the mentions to more relevant Pokemon like Mega Alakazam that can perform a similar role to Gengar whenever it was applicable, but often it just wasn't really like that. When we end up doing our revamps - which will most likely be after we finish the highest priority sections of the reservation index - those mentions will be changed to be more accurate in the current meta.

Rest of the post is good!! It's just that this is a pretty small-scale operation with very limited amounts of writers, qcers, and active playing, so it's pretty hard to get things done. Sorry! :x
 
oh sorry i must have somehow been looking at old versions of the analyses, im not great with computers or that familiar smogons website structure. sry about that

loves it @ criticisms of the rhydon analysis. (water types such as zapdos and m-venu made me lol). @ the para/burn spreaders section, although it is extremely unclear what is meant the way it is currently written, m-gyara being either burned or paralyzed is helpful to rhydon, para arguably even more so as it outspeeds para'd m-gyara and can go for rock slide paraflinch into eq ko range. (ofc in general / for the rest of the team it is likely preferable to burn m-gyara but the point is eg on "para spam" teams rhydon's greatly improved matchup w m-gyara, which otherwise might not mind being paralyzed too much, may be significant.)
~ counter slashed over rock slide or toxic? eq/rs/counter/sr seems unviable to me bc of mew, while eq/toxic/counter/sr seems mostly outclassed by sandslash, you do have the higher hp stat and ofc surprise factor but u really want a counter user to be more solid defensively. also usually u want to use counter to avoid prediction eg facing m-bee or m-aero so idk hm the surprise factor matters.
(i think sub def deserves an oo mention, easing prediction is more important than the 25% health lost, and also with paralysis support, which is significant bc para spam teams are one of the team structures where rhydon may be the preferred ground type (the other being m-beedrill teams or other teams with multiple u-turn and teleport users). esp sub/megahorn)
 
Last edited:
oh sorry i must have somehow been looking at old versions of the analyses, im not great with computers or that familiar smogons website structure. sry about that

loves it @ criticisms of the rhydon analysis. (water types such as zapdos and m-venu made me lol). @ the para/burn spreaders section, although it is extremely unclear what is meant the way it is currently written, m-gyara being either burned or paralyzed is helpful to rhydon, para arguably even more so as it outspeeds para'd m-gyara and can go for rock slide paraflinch into eq ko range. (ofc in general / for the rest of the team it is likely preferable to burn m-gyara but the point is eg on "para spam" teams rhydon's greatly improved matchup w m-gyara, which otherwise might not mind being paralyzed too much, may be significant.)
~ counter slashed over rock slide or toxic? eq/rs/counter/sr seems unviable to me bc of mew, while eq/toxic/counter/sr seems mostly outclassed by sandslash, you do have the higher hp stat and ofc surprise factor but u really want a counter user to be more solid defensively. also usually u want to use counter to avoid prediction eg facing m-bee or m-aero so idk hm the surprise factor matters.
I guess Rhydon can't really afford to lose rock slide or toxic, so counter would stay in OO. And the reason I didn't mention Mega Gyara is because yeah, it's covered by burn already, so saying it twice is redundent. You can go to this https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lets-go-ou-viability-rankings.3656868/ thread and click on the blue names and it will take you to their up to date analysis, you might have just been looking at forum drafts up until now, idk.

So that this post isn't just me talking to juoean, is there any reason why :sm/gyarados: is not on the slate for reservation? Gyarados is listed as viable on the viability rankings but unlike Aerodactyl, is not given its own set in the mega analysis.
 
i think (people / the "council" / w e) decided that base and mega forms shouldnt have separate analyses. not saying i agree with that & i think the second m-aero set brings up an issue with it bc it is a set you would only use if you are planning not to m-evolve most of the time, so it essentially is two separate analyses, but thered also be other issues with having separate analyses for base forms. (also the analysis doesnt include eg taunt/roost/stabs which is a set that can function effectively for both the base and mega form.) anyway just to clarify that i think it was intentional at gyara base form not having a reservation slate.
tbh i dont understand what it means to rank base and mega forms separately in viability rankings, since in teambuilding the main reason for running two megas is to have flexibility about which to m-evolve, and in gameplay idk how you separate out the viabilities. if i bluff m-evolving pokemon a in order to weaken something to set up m-evolving pokemon b, does that suggest the second mega and the first base form are 'better', or was the first mega form stronger since i used the threat of that to set up the second mega. but i j chose to stay out of that convo and i mostly avoid commenting on the viability of mega-evolutions.
 
~ the exeggutor-a analysis mentions leech seed at the beginning of oo, tho it does not learn that move. it also mentions explosion when egg-a only learns self destruct; i guess self destruct can get an oo mention, idk.
(since im commenting, there are other significant issues with that analysis, most notably that there is no mention of dragon tail which is imo mandatory on egg-a esp since it doesnt need the moveslot for much else anyway. teleport def should not be slashed, i wouldnt mention it at all bc i think dragon tail outclasses it. i also wouldnt rly mention eq in oo bc dragon tail is just as good for chansey, and adequate for muk-a which doesnt do that well vs egg-a regardless and typically has more important roles but nbd. and there are some wrong sentences such as suggesting using teleport on a predicted dragonite switchin, instead of using a dragon stab lol.)

~ electrode is (yet another, ik) set and analysis that needs a lot of revision

moveset ~ the current listed set is taunt, reflect, light screen/twave, tbolt/foul play.
both thunderbolt and foul play should be on pretty much every moveset, as foul play always or usually ohkos adamant/jolly m-bee after rocks respectively, thunderbolt 2hkos m-aero and these are two of the three matchups electrode is chosen for.
thunderbolt is a decent stab even tho its a bit weak but still eg (at worst) 2hkos all the waters except m-gyara which it 3hkos, and foul play provides pretty good coverage alongside it, doing similar or better damage to jolteon's shadow ball vs dugtrio-a and nidos (but much weaker vs rhydon and sandslash) as well as good damage to mew.
reflect and light screen are certainly usable, but honestly even eevee-s might be better if the primary desired role is a screens setter, having a dedicated screens setter is rarely worthwhile in this tier anyway, and (unlike eg jolteon) electrode cant generally afford to dedicate two moveslots to screens.

set description/usage tips ~ the whole set emphasizes preventing stealth rock and setting screens, these are not the reasons to use electrode or how it plays (particularly not preventing rocks lol), and while the listed moves arent completely bad other than the fact that tbolt is slashed with foul play and put in the fourth slot rather than both moves being listed (and being in the first two slots if order is meaningful), the description of almost every move is wrong largely due to the emphasis on taunt + screens.

taunt: dont think taunt is mandatory, but its primary use is for zapdos, not for stealth rock setters. zapdos can otherwise toxic and roost stall, but taunt prevents it from healing off stealth rock damage and forces it to just pivot out weakened. taunt is not for stealth rock setters, since many ohko electrode but also electrode is primarily a late-game pokemon, due to its speed tier and that its attacks tend to be too weak to be effective early game, by which point stealth rock is probably already set. taunt also helps further with mew, even assuming rocks are already set by preventing wisp or roost, tho foul play is generally adequate to deter mew anyway, having a chance to 2hko (timid mew with full attack ivs) after rocks.

twave: the only specifically mentioned twave target is m-beedrill, but foul play is almost always the better move to force out m-bee, as it is usually harder to switch into since grounds want to switch in to electrode anyway, as well as being better if m-bee tries to stay in since koing is obv better than crippling with para and the ko chance (after rocks) is close to twave's accuracy (guaranteed for adamant m-bee, 81% for jolly).
thunder wave's key target is m-zam, which electrode speed ties and survives any attack from full but electrode cannot even 2hko it. it is also useful for some other targets like zard x. idk that twave is 100% mandatory post m-gengar ban, eg if m-zam is a minimal threat to your team, or if you run light screen.

almost all of usage tips is dedicated to discussing electrode as a lead, but i cannot rly imagine any matchup where electrode should even be considered as a lead. i guess maybe if you face a team without a ground type (which also may reveal that mew is the sr setter)? anyway, it def shouldnt be the focus of usage tips.

team options ~ this section is kind of hard bc electrode is more of a stopgap pokemon, but rn again it only talks about pokemon benefitting from screens, and also some discussion of teammates benefitting from preventing rocks which does not belong at all. what is most important abt electrode is protecting its team from being swept by m-bee, m-zam if it has twave, and adamant m-aero, esp offensive teammates. i do agree with many of the mentioned pokemon in team options, especially m-gyara, just not the reasonings. gengar might be good to mention.

oo - toxic mention is fine, teleport deserves a mention too imo. id remove explosion, taunt helps with chansey and m-venu and explosion isnt significantly stronger than tbolt or foul play against anything else. this is the one section that is okay tho, just minor suggestions.

maybe analyses could be opened for revision after whenever the currently in progress analyses are completed (not rushing anyone ofc), since theres only a few unreserved pokemon left (basically 3, bc ninetales-k really isnt viable; and none of jolt/vap/slowbro-m are too important). and idk if lilburr had specific details/process in mind when suggesting that @ revamping)
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top