Gen 7 Let's Go UnderUsed

Eve

morning seems so far away
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
lguufinal.png

(overdesigned logo by me)
LGPE UU is the home of Pokémon that don't have what it takes to be consistent performers in OU. Here you'll find the likes of Moltres, Articuno, Tentacruel and even some Mega Evolutions. The tier is based off LGPE OU's usage stats across October 2019, with anything above 3.406% usage prohibited. This thread will be the hub for all resources and tiering discussions, including Viability Rankings, suspect tests, quickbans and general conversation about the format as it develops.

Note: Due to LGPE's Mega Evolution mechanics, Pokemon had their usage combined with that of their Mega Evolution(s) to determine their tiering. As a result, Pokemon such as regular Gyarados and Kangaskhan are OU.

RULES
Mechanics:
Pokemon are set to Level 50. Pokemon do not have EVs, Abilities, or Items. IVs and Nature still apply.
Clauses: Smogon-Wide Clauses.
Allowed Pokemon: Pokemon 1-151 and Meltan, minus the prohibited Pokemon listed below, are allowed for use in LGPE UU.

PROHIBITED POKEMON
OU: Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Arcanine, Beedrill, Chansey, Cloyster, Dragonite, Dugtrio-Alola, Eevee-Starter, Gengar, Gyarados, Kangaskhan, Melmetal, Mew, Muk-Alola, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Poliwrath, Rapidash, Rhydon, Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola, Snorlax, Starmie, Venusaur, Zapdos
UUBL: None (yet)

RESOURCES
Viability Rankings
Type Compendium
Sample Teams
Speed Tiers
Discord

LGPE UU will probably never have a challenge format on the main showdown server- you can play by challenging someone to an OU battle with UU teams, or using the format on my psim, Nexus!
 
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Eve

morning seems so far away
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Viability Rankings (V1)
Pokemon are ranked based on how well they perform in the metagame. This is usually measured by how well the Pokemon perform in the following criteria:
Threat Level, Splashability, Reliability, Metagame Impact, Speed, Bulk, Uniqueness, Stealth Rock Vulnerability, Matchup Spread.

S Rank:

Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some, with a strong proficiency in several. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.


A Rank:
Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or some minor negative characteristics that could set them back.

A+
A
A-

B Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.

B+
B
B-

C-Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount of negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.

C+
:muk: Muk
C
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Lapras​
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Pinsir​
:raticate: Raticate​
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Vileplume​
C-
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Charizard​
:fearow: Fearow​
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Golbat​
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Hypno​
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Magmar​
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Persian​
:raticate-alola: Alolan Raticate​
Last Updated: 18th September 2020
18th September 2020: Moved Mega Charizard X from A+ to S
17th July 2020: Initial VR created by Eve

Other Resources
Damage Calc (provided by @Lego)
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
That prohibited mons list seems kinda off. It doesn't mention certain mons like Arcanine and normal Sandslash while incorrectly saying stuff like Charizard is banned by usage. That said...


Gyarados seems like a pretty all-around solid tank. It can check the Mega Charizards while Dragon Tailing out checks and dishing the damage with Earthquake and Waterfall. ou by usage nvm

Screenshot 2020-02-27 at 7.44.05 PM.png

On the subject of Water tanks, Tentacruel also seems pretty neat. Takes on the Megazards even better, although unlike Gyarados it has to beware Earthquake. It also has sustain in Mega Drain as well as high-power Scalds and Sludge Bomb.

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Surprisingly anti-meta rocker? It seems like there's gonna be a good amount of Water types, and while Golem-Alola can't switch in, Water can't switch in on it either due to its Electric STAB.

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I remember running Bulk Up Mega Pinsir allll the way back in the good old days of pre-release Candy OU, and it put in work there. Maybe it can find a home in UU?


Without Magic Guard OU has been a bit too strong for it, but perhaps it can be a good Fairy down here
 
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Eve

morning seems so far away
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
LGPE now has a working teambuilder once again thanks to Kris! As a result, building for the tier will be much easier. An interesting side effect of using our old combined usage for megas and base formes is that Gengar has been put in OU. We can't determine whether it would have dropped without its Mega, and would almost certainly have banned it regardless. We're sticking with this tiering, meaning Gengar is no longer allowed in LGPE UU.

That's not all I want to share though- while I'm here, I feel like giving an overview of my favourite team from the little testing we've had. I feel like it does a good job of showing that LGPE is very accomodating to a variety of playstyles!

:ss/tentacruel::ss/electrode::ss/pinsir-mega::ss/pikachu-starter::ss/marowak::ss/persian-alola: (click for pokepaste)
This is a very basic dual screens offense. LGPE's lack of Light Clay makes it a much smarter choice to have a balanced backbone on this teamstyle in order to better respond to the opponent's offense, rather than going all in on offense and relying on screens to tank hits. In this team's case, Tentacruel and Marowak make for a solid 2 Pokemon core that can respond to many threats in a pinch. Electrode also acts as a catch-all, being fast enough to outspeed even a +1 Venomoth and prevent further setup, and Pikachu can pick things off with Zippy Zap. For offense, the team is definitely not lacking in fast firepower- Mega Pinsir is absolutely nuclear and can decimate bulkier teams or those that have their fast Pokemon picked off. Alolan Persian has perfect coverage in two moves and a stellar Speed tier, making it a great pivot and greatly improving the team's matchup against opposing offense which can't deal with its decidedly lacking Special Attack after a boost. This team is probably far from optimal, but it's definitely fun! Be wary that due to Screens' shorter duration, it may be optimal to only set up one at a time to maximise the number of turns you get.
Things to experiment with: Explosion/Teleport on Electrode, Swords Dance on Marowak, Hypnosis on Alolan Persian, Reflect on Tentacruel

Also, here's some general thoughts on which Pokemon stand out at this stage-
:tentacruel: This is the best Pokemon in the tier. Amazing special bulk, solid Speed, Toxic immune and a reliable spreader, and very difficult to switch into with its coverage and Scald in general- Tentacruel has it all.

:dugtrio: Dugtrio is strong and really fast (most of the faster mons are Electric-types), has STAB Earthquake (best move in this tier), and also has Rock Slide and Sucker Punch to cover Flying-types and pick off anything that may end up outspeeding it. Substitute sets are really good at exploiting the switches it can force. Dugtrio is probably offense's best tool for destroying opposing offense. Frailty and difficulty breaking through bulky Waters/Marowak/Exeggutors in the short term hold it back, but definitely still one of the best.

:blastoise-mega::slowbro-mega: Grouping together because they do roughly the same thing- be a bulky Water tank that throws off strong hits in return. Blastoise offers better special bulk, a real Speed tier, a significantly higher STAB damage output thanks to Hydro Pump (Slowbro only gets Surf), and can run Aqua Jet and physical options like Earthquake. Slowbro offers ridiculous physical bulk, insane coverage, Thunder Wave, a secondary STAB, and setup options that can potentially let you cheese a win. Pick whichever fits your team best.

:charizard-mega-x::charizard-mega-y: These things are somewhere from amazing to broken, not sure yet. Zard-X is obviously more consistent thanks to its reduced Stealth Rock weakness, but Zard-Y's immense power can be really hard to pass up. Might try my hand once again at finally coding correct Mega Evolution mechanics because I'd love to see how Zard would utilize the ability to choose the better Mega for the scenario, and how it might affect sets and viability.

:omastar: Omastar is terrifying in certain scenarios. If you don't have Jolteon, Starter Pikachu, or Electrode on your team, you don't have a Pokemon that can outspeed or Zippy Zap it after a Shell Smash and might just lose (especially if you don't have a bulky water or it was forced to take damage). If you have one of those Electric-types, you're probably okay. Matchup Fossil for sure

:pikachu-starter: Speaking of the rodent, it's actually good here! The power level is much more accomodating, and the lower amount of mons that stonewall it means it can function effectively as a revenge killer that can whittle things down throughout the game with its great coverage. Zippy Zap is, of course, invaluable priority in a format lacking conventional means of speed control.

That's all for now! Full resources and an early VR coming soon :blobthumbsup:
 

Eve

morning seems so far away
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I had a lot of time to kill tonight, so what better to do than continue to push this quaint tier? I've put together a Viability Rankings for the tier, complete with sample sets for everything down to B-! It's post #2 on this thread.
As this was made by me alone in a single night, it's bound to have inaccuracies- feel free to join the LGPE Discord and play some battles with us to help fine-tune it. ;)

One thing I want to mention, seeing as I called Tentacruel the top mon previously-
:blastoise-mega:
So what happened to make this turtle the face of the meta? To put it simply, I ran some calcs. Mega Blastoise is extremely tough to KO and even tougher to wall, making for a formidable tank that also has a really solid Speed tier. It feels a lot like Melmetal does in LGPE OU- a Tank that takes the role to another level, and it's proven itself to deserve the #1 spot through plenty of testing. I don't think it's unhealthy though, at least not yet!
 
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~ ik this is all very preliminary but thinking that venomoth should be S. its 'default' sludge bomb/ mega drain/ qd / roost (modest) is extremely hard to deal with at +1, the only pokemon that it doesnt outspeed are electrode which can only twave (not exactly a reliable way to deal with it since it can keep boosting) or explode (and explosion doesnt ko after rocks) and outspeeding +1 venomoth is literally its niche in the tier, pika-s does 37-49% with zippy zap depending on nature, and timid jolteon which speed ties and does less than 40% with tbolt. as for other offensive pokemon, for example zard x are almost ohko'ed at +1 after rocks, and m-blastoise cannot accomplish anything outside of dragon tail (and if m-blastoise also lacks aqua jet healthy venomoth can even set up in front of it); and the primary pokemon that resist its attack(s) like tentacruel, haunter to whatever extent that is relevant, cant damage it sufficiently so they just become set up bait instead, magneton can twave but that only rly helps due to the full paralysis chance. in general, outside of marowak-a either an opposing pokemon needs to be rly healthy or venomoth needs to be very weakened to check it at +1, and ofc some pokemon such as dugtrio just lose to it at +1 regardless.
venomoth's main issue is setting up, but it will almost always have an opportunity to set up at some point even without sleep powder.
and sleep powder can screw up an opposing healthy pokemon that expects to check the above set (obv that is luck dependent) in addition to making set up easier. sleep powder usually should replace roost, or it can be run mono attacking bug buzz but that loses important neutral coverage esp on mega zard and moltres.
(idt psychic should ever rly be run, poison types are rare itd mainly be for tentacruel and opposing venomoth, but tentacruel cant beat venomoth anyway and sleep powder is enough for the mirror matchup while still having use outside of that. idt there is any reason to run bug buzz except on mono attacking sets, +1 venomoth's matchup against opposing psychics is pretty good anyway, eg kadabra is ohko'ed by sludge bomb after rocks, and a healthy venomoth can boost a second time against m-slowbro and +2 mega drain will usually ko after rocks and recover almost as much health as it took from psychic at +2 (m-slowbro without psychic j loses), or alternatively +1 mega drain does 60-71%. modest should be the primary nature, all timid rly does is outspeed jolteon at +1 instead of speed tie, and outspeed a few pokemon unboosted but none of those are rly pokemon it can set up on anyway.)
i see venomoth's 'power level' as comparable to the prominent megas, but ofc it does not take the mega slot. i think it may often be hard to justify not using it on a team, bc usually the worst case scenario is that u set up and heavily damage something before being ko'ed, and it is so threatening if not considered in teambuilding to the point of eg singlehandedly making electrode viable.

~ base form pinsir is far too low (eg relative to other base forms). pinsir can be very hard to deal with because the pokemon that can revenge kill mega-pinsir often struggle with its base form. for example, jolteon does 53-69% depending on nature with tbolt and is ohkoed back by eq, and dugtrio does 41-50% with rock slide and is usually ohko'ed back by x-scissor. while eg most fire types that beat base form pinsir, are outsped by the mega form and are always ohko'ed, except zard x which is usually ohko'ed by eq after rocks. pinsir should almost always be used with a second mega bc in many cases it may not want to mega evolve at all. with no mew the increased speed tier isnt as important and even in base form it outspeeds quite a bit and with fire type attacks not having very good coverage in this tier, resisted by all the waters and having relatively little super effective coverage, its base defensive typing is solid outside of the rocks weakness.
i feel like pinsir as a whole is maybe not valued enough, bc outside of a few rarer checks, unless a team has both zard/moltres and a fast electric or dugtrio, whichever form it lacks an obvious check to can become a big threat.
i agree bulk up and sd are both viable, bulk up can help protect esp base form pinsir from eg dugtrio, pika-s's floaty fall, and maybe dodrio.

~ a few smol things:
- moltres should have agility here. wisp is of very limited usefulness with kabutops being the only physical water and u turn is rly hard for it to use as always. agility means it beats dugtrio instead of losing to it, allows it to usually beat zard x lacking outrage or dragon tail, and helps somewhat with electrics etc. moltres's offensive typing isnt great in this meta and it is complete bait for omastar (has to switch out directly to prevent multiple boosts and game over), but if u are going to use it it should have agility. and i dont think zard y is viable in this meta at all, the 100 base speed doesnt even matter that much here and other than having, like, dragon pulse for at least some decent damage on omastar to prevent it from boosting twice, it has no benefit over moltres and loses agility on top of taking the mega slot. (if the mechanic of choosing mega evolution in battle were implemented, this could change as it could run air slash and dpulse and choose which mega evolution to use based on matchup.)
- bulk up hitmonlee seems a bit low, its speed is a bit lacking in this tier but its bulk is decent on both sides at +1 and absurd power matched only by m-pinsir. other than m-slowbro it doesnt have any true counters, but there are the fast air slash/drill peck users here that can revenge kill it, along with the prob less common fast psychic types
- idk if electabuzz can go somewhere? neutral natured ice punch almost ohko's dugtrio after rocks which may give it a niche over other electrics. low kick can be used for magneton and both golem forms, reflect could help so u dont have to overpredict dugtrio switching in, twave. could even run thunder punch for an all physical set with adamant nature which can sometimes ohko dugtrio as well as better damage against eg tentacruel but much worse vs omastar and m-slowbro, or thunder for para chance since grounds other than marowak may hesitate to switch in. maybe hard to justify over pika-s but ice punch does more to dugtrio than splishy splash and electabuzz does better against opposing electrics since its special bulk is decent. def feels more viable than eg magmar which im not sure what that is doing ranked with an sr weakness and bad offensive typing for this tier.
 

Eve

morning seems so far away
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Great post!
~ Venomoth stuff
Yeah, this is something I've been considering. Venomoth is extremely powerful and easily the scariest setup wincon in the tier for exactly the reasons you listed. Nobody I've battled has used it though, so it's mostly theory, while the 2 current S tiers have been used several times and are proven to be massively powerful (if not somewhat broken in Zard's case). Definitely gonna make that set the main one btw, probably with Bug Buzz slashed after Mega Drain for better neutral damage against stuff like Magneton and Bro in a pinch (not getting Para'd can be big).

~ Pinsir stuff
Pinsir's main issue is that while there aren't a huge number of mons faster than it, those which are are very popular and typically several are found on any given UU team (I find it very hard to build UU teams without at least 2 of Jolteon, Dugtrio, Alolan Persian, Electrode, Starter Pika, Dodrio etc, all of which can typically RK it after it takes damage setting up). Between Stealth Rock usually being up and/or Pinsir simply hardly ever getting a great switchin opportunity that also enables safe setup, it's not too hard to prevent it from making too much progress- when it does get the right opportunity, however, it's a menace, hence Mega Pinsir's solid A- rating. Regular Pinsir probably warrants a rise, I agree, but I don't want to rank Mega Pinsir much higher for now. The Mega Evolutions ranked above it are generally better and more consistent, even at breaking, and out of those only Slowbro is really okay with giving up its Mega Evolution on dual mega teams as base Zard and Blastoise are pretty bad. Pinsir also typically mandates screens support to reach its full potential, and while screens are common and good in UU that's another teambuilding factor to consider compared to other Megas.

~ a few smol things:
- moltres
Agreed, Agility definitely looks way better, should have considered that. Honestly looks like a decently potent cleaner lategame in some scenarios as many teams are very offensive and let their waters get worn down in the midgame. Omastar isn't on every team and you usually won't get destroyed as long as you pair Moltres with something that pressures/tanks it and Jolteon as a safety measure if everything goes wrong, just never give it 2 turns of setup which is really the case in any matchup vs Omastar. Zard-Y is also probably worse than I'm giving it credit for as its raw power doesn't actually achieve much more than ZardX's in this tier and it's otherwise mostly worse, so I can see a drop making sense.

- bulk up hitmonlee
Agreed- this mon's damage is ridiculous, can't really say much more about it. It's not very complex.

- electabuzz
Electabuzz is a very interesting case. If you want a standalone elec you're often better off running any of Jolteon, Starter Pikachu, and Alolan Raichu, as their Speed tiers let them reliably outrun Pinsir and actually contribute to handling Dodrio (shakily in Raichu-A's case due to tying). Jolteon's Shadow Ball cleanly 2HKOs Dugtrio so it can threaten switchins similarly to Electabuzz (which actually requires more prior damage), and Jolteon can actually beat a weakened Dugtrio 1v1 which no amount of coverage could let Electabuzz do. Maybe running Electabuzz alongside Jolteon could be viable though, as both can help bust through checks for each other and Electabuzz actually threatens Alolan Exeggutor while Jolteon can provide screens for safer entry. Such a core would probably have very real ZardX issues as you'd also want a Grass alongside them to pivot in on Dugtrio/Golem/Marowak in unfavourable scenarios, but slotting TWave or Toxic somewhere on the two would help alleviate that at least and so would a Mega Blastoise.


Gonna go ahead and update a few of these sample sets, will also probably be discussing VR changes in the Discord! We don't have a council right now so any opinions are appreciated, especially from those who have experience with LGPE.
 
~ true at venomoth and i agree with that at slashing bug buzz with mega drain. bug buzz hits all the rocks and grounds in the tier neutrally anyway so it is def an option instead of mega drain, mainly losing the recovery and the ohko on omastar/kabutops/golem at +1. i think they could prob be slashed in either order (but sludge bomb should never be dropped)
~ mostly agree at pinsir. also maybe worth noting that pinsir can drop a boosting move to set stealth rock, it can set rocks safely against most of the tier other than zard x, its obv bulkier than dugtrio so it can take a hit on the turn it sets rocks and has a better speed and more consistent defensive typing than any other rocks setters. it 'obv' should almost never be mega evolving if it is being used to set rocks.
~ electabuzz is a good user of twave anyway since ice punch or low kick nearly 2hko i think every para immune pokemon in the tier except marowak, and zard x cant rly function well at all paralyzed so idk that id be concerned about that specifically. and timid jolteon's shadow ball only has a 3% chance to 2hko dugtrio after rocks, but regardless evthg u said makes sense and i see how electabuzz's viability is a lil questionable. (at the core you suggested, pairing them with moltres might be better than a grass type, low kick will bring golem very close to fire blast ko range to set up a moltres sweep, and marowak might run thunder punch and/or ice beam instead of rock slide and regardless if moltres can switch into earthquake it can prob force marowak out tho modest fire blast doesnt ohko. dealing with dugtrio would be very prediction dependent but dugtrio is usually not a big issue for a moltres team and semi checking it with eg mega slowbro or mega blastoise is fine. while the electrics help moltres with its omastar weakness)

btw the bulky grass types seem rly high? if the reason is to check grounds, idk bc exeggutor-a is 2hko'ed by marowak's ice beam and they both are 3hko'ed by golem's rock slide which is arguably its most spammable move since the main rock resists are rly phys frail (dugtrio and hitmonlee). every water type in the tier other than sometimes m-slowbro always carries ice coverage and exeggutor-a's fire neutrality isnt worth much since its weak to both zard x's and moltres's secondary stabs but at least it checks jolteon. idk is their checking dugtrio and a few other smol niches rly enough to warrant an A rank? esp when exeggutor-a is outsped and ohko'ed by so many key pokemon in the tier
 
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putting comments related to ranking first, then 'other notes' at the bottom of the post

1. ranking suggestions followed by explanations ~

possible drops:
m-blastoise ~ S to A+
articuno ~ A- to (C ranks somewhere)
zard y ~ A- to unranked
haunter ~ A- to (B ranks somewhere)
magneton ~ A- to B+
exeggutor-a ~ A to A-

possible rises:
tauros and pika-s ~ B+ to A-
ninetales-a ~ C+ to B/B-
arbok ~ C+ to B-
pinsir ~ C to B
raichu-a ~ B to B+
golem-a ~ B- to B/B+

While it is true that m-blastoise has excellent 1v1s with most of the meta, it also has a lot of relatively neutral matchups (which is very different from melmetal in ou, a comparison eve suggested) since it has few resistances, and it forces out very little, obv it also lacks recovery. so the opponent can significantly influence what pokemon they want to use to trade damage with it, or alternatively can attack it with whatever it comes in against.
zard x is very hard to give up in this tier, and if u compare the two zard x also has excellent 1v1s with most of the meta, in many of which it can use roost freely and therefore win without taking damage overall. if u are giving up zard x it is probably for something with a much different role, most likely m-slowbro which provides team support in twave and/or sweeping potential.
m-blastoise's best features are its positive matchups with zard x and m-slowbro, and that is how it is most likely to be used to semi-check those two huge threats, but ofc running it prevents using either of those threats yourself. otherwise, zard x is almost always better since it can do a lot more than 1v1 one opposing pokemon.

moveset wise, it has a lot of flexibility in a sense but at the same time it doesn't. if you arent running dark pulse (or dragon tail) you no longer check cm m-slowbro at all, which is losing the biggest advantage of using m-blastoise over zard x. if you arent running aqua jet (or dragon tail), you are setup bait for venomoth which is extremely dangerous to most teams at +1, and even with aqua jet you need hydro pump or surf with a rash nature to have decent odds to prevent it from setting up. if you run hydro pump over surf and do not run dragon pulse (or dragon tail), u no longer beat zard x with consistency.
while dragon tail does 'compress' a lot of these roles, it is not rly a great move for m-blastoise in this tier, since it does minimal damage and most opponents will be attacking m-blastoise directly rather than trying to switch into it since it has so many neutral matchups. eg taking paralysis in order to phaze m-slowbro to prevent it from setting up calm mind is far worse than 2hkoing it with dark pulse.
im not really sure what articuno is doing in A-, its typing is bad offensively and defensively as well as its 4x rocks weakness, the suggested moveset of sub/toxic seems reasonable (i guess), but the two primary toxic immune pokemon in the tier (tenta and magneton) resist ice and are bad matchups esp if tenta has scald to thaw, it is outsped and ohko'ed after rocks by a lottt, that set is also setup bait for venomoth outside of freezes (and ofc omastar too) and im not sure what articuno is offering to offset all these weaknesses. for example how is articuno better than like, golbat? its better bulk is mostly offset by its bad typing eg being weak to fire and 4x weak to rock slide, golbat has actual coverage with eg sludge bomb + mega drain, and doesnt rly need substitute bc of its poison immunity or toxic bc of stab sludge bomb, so it can run whirlwind instead. articuno does get agility and ice shard but idk if it can really use either. golbat at least has a specific role as the only venomoth check that has recovery, what threats is articuno checking. idk if im missing something bc i dont understand articuno in a- at all and i made that comparison bc somewhere in c rank seems appropriate to me.
to elaborate on why i dont rly think zard y should be ranked at all, zard x's typing is so good here esp defensively, while zard y's typing leaves it easily ohko'ed after rocks by dugtrio and the electrics ie basically all of the tier's revenge killers; so its 4x rocks weakness is an even bigger problem here than in ou, on top of being setup bait for omastar/kabutops. and its stabs have bad neutral coverage with all the rock types in the tier, and it generally does worse than zard x against the waters too bc of its defensive typing. zard y provides nothing over zard x, yes i know the spa is higher but there are 0 matchups in this tier where zard y does better than zard x, it opens you up to all the electric revenge killers as well as aqua jet along with the 4x rocks weakness while providing (?? slightly better matchups vs fighting types bc of air slash? but those are pretty favorable matchups anyway. ??) in return
im not rly sure why haunter is so high either, its too slow for such a frail pokemon, and its typing doesnt offer that much in practice, offensively or defensively, since dodrio never really drops drill peck anyway (in this tier). i think it belongs maybe around the same rank as mr mime.
moveset wise, it should run mega drain, for golem, and also haunter usually survives +2 aqua jet from (jolly) kabutops after rocks and can then ko and recover most hp back. either thunder(bolt) or wisp/sub/sucker can go in the fourth slot, wisp + mega drain gives a good matchup with marowak-k and golem-a so wisp still has use even tho it is not needed for golem-k. (thunderbolt doesnt provide any additional coverage but has greater bp for like, m-blastoise and maybe vaporeon, thunder is prob a better use of the moveslot)
outside of being able to paralyze boosted venomoth, magneton's unique steel typing isnt as helpful as one would like in practice, eg it outright loses to raichu-a anyway and does only decently against other psychic attackers due to its poor special bulk. clefable basically outclasses it outside of the venomoth matchup, having an overall better defensive typing, better stab coverage, better support movepool in calm mind and stealth rock, and spreading paralysis much better due to not fearing opposing electrics too much. also magneton needs twave as otherwise it cannot fill its only real niche of semi-checking venomoth, which leaves it only one flexible moveslot. in comparison to arbok, it has a much worse matchup with opposing electrics and dugtrio, but brings other advantages notably doing far better vs m-slowbro, and also being able to paralyze outrage locked zard x (ik it seems like a weird comparison but i think they are actually somewhat similar in this meta, having the same primary niche and a lot of other similar matchups even if for different reasons).
exeggutor-a is overall worse than exeggutor-k and the rankings should reflect that.

in terms of defensive typing, exeggutor-k checks calm mind m-slowbro, clefable and raichu-a far better than the alolan form does, particularly combined with leech seed which prevents boosted m-slowbro from using rest effectively and checks even +2 raichu-a. exeggutor-k's weakness to dugtrio's sucker punch is significantly mitigated by leech seed as well. exeggutor-a's 4x ice weakness also leaves it outsped and ohkoed by unboosted oma and most m-blastoise, while exeggutor-k's 4x bug weakness is less important, mainly matters for unboosted kabutops, also primeape and base form pinsir, but these are obv pokemon that are less important than omastar and the water type megas and are easier for teammates to deal with. exeggutor-k being weak to jolteon's shadow ball is significant but does not make up for all these other disadvantages. (exeggutor-a's neutrality to fire doesnt provide much since eg zard x and moltres still hit it super effectively with their secondary stabs)

offensively, psychic prevents venomoth from setting up on exeggutor-k, while exeggutor-a is forced to run dragon tail in order to not be venomoth bait. psychic and mega drain have excellent neutral coverage generally, hitting everything neutrally except the frail magneton and opposing exeggutor-k, and psychic covering victreebel or exeggutor-a that might try to come in on leech seed (or mega drain). exeggutor-a's access to flamethrower isnt too important in this tier, rly its only useful to give it a better chance against exeggutor-k and maybe victreebel, i wouldnt drop earthquake as i see that as its main draw over exeggutor-k but with the exception of jolteon earthquake is mainly covering pokemon that exeggutor-k does at least as well against anyway, eg raichu-a and tentacruel. dragon tail is important unless u are running one of the rare true venomoth checks, but that takes another moveslot, and its not rly a great dragon tail user in this tier with a lot of bad matchups bc of its weaknesses.

stat wise, the speed drop matters more than the phys attack, esp since exeggutor-a might run -speed to not reduce the power of eq/dtail. eg it loses the speed tie on oma, no longer outspeeds golems, and ofc is outsped by the kantonian form which it therefore loses to 1v1 unless it drops a more generally important move (prob eq or dtail) for flamethrower.

in terms of movepool, exeggutor-k can run leech seed plus a second utility move (screen, sleep powder, or teleport) while exeggutor-a doesnt rly have room for any non damaging move. leech seed is extremely useful in this tier, with basically only one bulky recovery move user (zard x), and many setup attackers that can benefit greatly from leech seed recovery to help them set up. so for example leech seed + screen can either help exeggutor keep itself healthy, or can provide a safe entry point for a teammate to set up.

one caveat i have for this comment is that exeggutor-a could maybe be a good paralysis spreader with earthquake + stun spore, and stun spore removing the need for dtail for venomoth. but stun spore isnt listed as a suggestion, idk if anyone has tried such a set, and its going to have issues with exeggutor-k blocking its paralysis once stun spore is revealed (unless it drops dragon pulse to also run flamethrower)

sorry this description is a little disorganized but i feel it is clear enough to show that exeggutor-k is mostly better than its alolan counterpart in this tier.


this is largely to cover the gap of everything dropped from A-. regardless, its speed tier is excellent and it has decent matchups with the few pokemon that outspeed it, taking 50-58% from jolteon's tbolt and 38-46% from dugtrio's eq while usually and always ohkoing back (after rocks) respectively. it can run two of: outrage to revenge zard x more effectively and also hit exeggutor-a, with usually minimal consequences of being locked in (eg omastar cannot set up twice in front of an outrage locked tauros) rock slide for flinches and to avoid double edge recoil against super effective targets, facade for burn, thrash for late game sweeping.
tauros can be used either as a revenge killer, or a wallbreaker with its good bulk and strong stab, its def not at the level of dugtrio but it does have some advantages esp not being vulnerable to aqua jet (and ice shard) and not rly being checked by anything (while eggs check dugtrio pretty well) or more likely can be used alongside dugtrio, its pretty splashable. i def think it can be in A- maybe even A.
also mostly to cover the gap left in A-. this is less clear to me than tauros, but i think pika-s's alternative options for its fourth moveslot (replacing thunderbolt) give it some flexibility / unpredictability that can bring it into A-, as thunderbolt is really mainly important for m-slowbro, as it only helps with omastar and kabutops if they are unboosted. 1 dig does 65-77% to calm mind raichu-a, enabling pika-s to revenge kill raichu-a instead of being setup bait for it, sometimes ohko's magneton, and can maybe catch 'other electrics' ie jolteon trying to switch into (any of its other moves). 2 running thunder rather than tbolt alongside zippy zap provides more power for when zippy zap is not strong enough at the cost of accuracy, and also provides a stab move with a higher paralysis chance to deter eg zard x from switching in, giving it a more clearly differentiated function alongside zippy zap. 3 brick break could be useful to break screens, esp since a lot of screen setters are electric types which can otherwise use pika-s as an opportunity to set screens, and also provides coverage for magneton.

the fourth move can be selected to cover a team weakness, dig for cm/encore raichu-a which is threatening to some teams, brick break for teams weak to screen sweepers that pika-s cant revenge very consistently eg mega drain venomoth or leech life kabutops, and at the same time the opponent really cant scout for the fourth move so they have to guess in advance eg is their raichu-a set to sweep or is it a good opportunity to set screen(s).
my reason for raising ninetales-a's rank is ice shard, which even with a timid nature does ~50% to dugtrio, protecting ninetales-a from what is otherwise the main threat to revenge kill it, and also doing 31-37% to dodrio. this is especially true for calm mind sets, which since the other main revenge killers are special attackers and cannot hit it super effectively so a cm boosted alolan ninetales can only rly be revenge killed by pika-s and tauros. this means it can wallbreak, esp against teams lacking either of those two pokemon, rather than being limited to sweeping. ninetales-a doesnt have great coverage regardless so being able to run only two of ice beam, dazzling gleam, dark pulse isnt losing that much (ofc it leaves no room for hypnosis). ice shard also helps with venomoth, eg +1 ice beam followed by ice shard usually ko's venomoth after rocks, and provides some protection from cm/encore raichu-a, ofc as well as random extra chip damage against faster electrics etc. either to get a ko or before being ko'ed.

ninetales-a still definitely has significant issues in the tier, its damage output is a lil low in general as well as being pretty completely countered by tentacruel and magneton and ofc crippled by paralysis, but with the flexibility provided by ice shard i think it fits much better somewhere in the b-tier, maybe somewhat comparable to pokemon such as raichu-a and mr. mime, and its rocks weakness is mitigated by rarely having to switch out once it sets up cm.
arbok is interesting as a venomoth check, it is a good para spreader since it has eq for electrics, poison jab really isnt a bad stab esp with eq coverage, and earthquake + sucker punch + glare is more than adequate to check boosted venomoth. i wouldnt run mega drain bc then u no longer check venomoth if u are weakened, and having sucker punch for dugtrio and psychics, and revenge killing other targets eg boosted omastar, is more important than mega drain for (golem and kabutops?).

unlike muk-k, arbok can be placed on a variety of teams that are worried about venomoth / give it setup opportunities, if you see venomoth in team preview just preserve arbok to check it (taking care around a potential sleep powder, but thats true of checking venomoth in general); while against teams without venomoth arbok can be used early game instead, to spread paralysis and attack which it does reasonably effectively, although it is ohkoed by (jolly) zard x's earthquake but everything else that outspeeds and ohko's it (dugtrio and psychics) takes >50% from sucker punch. this is very different from muk-k which struggles offensively and therefore if the opponent doesnt have a specific threat for it to check, mainly venomoth or omastar, may not accomplish much.
Pinsir is a pretty splashable rocks setter, unlike dugtrio it doesnt die to almost any attack on the turn it sets rocks, and the only pokemon that can outspeed and ohko it (to deny rocks) is zard x (and timid moltres, but moltres is likely to prefer modest as an agility sweeper). while clefable is prob usually better than pinsir overall as an excellent para spreader and even better def typing, pinsir has some advantages with its better speed tier, better attack stat and coverage, and while bug stab isnt rly great in this tier it does let pinsir revenge kill m-slowbro regardless of cm boosts as well as hitting the egg forms. as a bonus, pinsir cant be distinguished between a rocks setter and its offensive mega sd set from preview, and it also has the option to m-evolve, which might be relevant for eg preventing a weakened zard x from coming in to force it out, since pinsir has the possibility to mega evolve to outspeed and ko it with earthquake. it doesnt rly check anything for the team except m-slowbro, it has few weaknesses but also few resistances and ofc is weak to rocks, but i def think it can go somewhere in the b ranks for its role as a sturdy stealth rock setter that can also hit hard and has a good speed tier.
raichu-a deserves to be the top ranked psychic type in the tier due to its immunity to paralysis. raichu-a's access to encore, which i would rarely drop in this tier, can act as a deterrent to opposing pokemon trying to spread paralysis, as if raichu-a can switch into twave it is 50/50 to get a free turn, and it is not rly a bad switchin to twave users such as clefable and m-slowbro anyway if u mispredict. encore also prevents opposing calm mind users and can sometimes catch other status moves esp screens. (calm mind, on the other hand, can be dropped for toxic, which also pairs well with encore and if you are concerned about the zard x matchup, tho note u will no longer beat magneton without calm mind).
unlike jolt and pika-s, raichu-a cannot check +2 omastar, but ofc neither can the tier's other psychic types, tho it does check dodrio pretty well, speed tying and fearing only a potential thrash at +2. its paralysis immunity, secondary stab and encore set it apart from say kadabra, tho it doesnt hit as hard (unboosted) and ofc it has usable bulk.
in a tier where the most prominent ground type is dugtrio, golem-a is actually quite usable as a paralysis spreader since earthquake sometimes or always ohkos electrics and does major damage to dugtrio even without stab. (neutral natured) golem-a also outspeeds anything under base 100s paralyzed, and has a strong flinch move in stab rock slide, so it can often take better advantage of the paralysis it spreads than clefable or arbok can.
thunder punch is certainly usable, but twave is perfectly adequate for threatening any potential water type switchin with arguably the exception of m-slowbro, as tentacruel really cannot function at all paralyzed and other waters become outsped and therefore susceptible to paraflinch, and stealth rock sets dont rly have room for it as eq/rock slide/twave is the most consistent set. however, on paralysis centered teams clefable is much more consistent as a rocks setter but golem-a may still be very useful for both spreading para and esp for taking advantage of paralyzed pokemon, so thunder punch is a good option for replacing srock in the fourth slot.

the 4x eq weakness obv rly sucks leaving it ohkoed by most zard x, but it also survives eg tentacruel's surf/scald, +1 venomoth's mega drain (or bug buzz), pika-s's bouncy bubble, and +2 kabutops' aqua jet (tho it is at risk for rock slide flinch) unlike its kantonian form, and all of those obv hate paralysis and/or are koed by golem-a's attacks.
im unsure how to rank it as golem-a is by far most likely to be found on para heavy teams but def think b- is too low.

nature is flexible, adamant is default but even jolly is possible on para heavy teams to outspeed parad base 100s-105s esp zard x, and also to outspeed golem-k, careful lets it survive eg quiet victreebels mega drain and take less from the other electrics when it needs to take a hit from them.

i wanted to put a few notes abt other pokemon, not about rank

~ zard x can (prob usually should) be mixed, eg timid sets running fire blast /dpulse rly want earthquake (or possibly thunder punch) for tentacruel, and in some cases other specially bulkier pokemon such as cm raichu-a, cm mr mime, vaporeon. wisp really isnt needed for fire blast/dpulse sets since dpulse 2hko's golem and kabutops, wisp doesnt rly help with kabutops anyway due to swords dance, and it doesnt rly have other important targets. beating tentacruel is far more important and earthquake is strong enough regardless of -attack nature (and even timid thunder punch easily 2hkos tentacruel). running one special and one physical stab is also very viable, since running flare blitz + outrage can have issues when neither recoil nor being locked in is desirable.
~ tentacruel should have mirror coat at least slashed, it really messes up electrics (other than pika-s which cant ohko and takes a lot of damage back anyway) as well as kadabra/jynx/etc, also beats any zard x that arent running a physical move (lol), and toxic isnt rly that useful for tenta since stab sludge bomb is almost always a better move to click for neutral targets and all resists that arent toxic immune are weak to its water stab and/or mega drain. mirror coat can also help a bit with venomoth, tho tentacruel is generally still just losing to roost venomoth (as long as the venomoth user plays attentively).
with mirror coat tenta can also consider +spdef nature, as against pokemon such as jynx mr mime haunter it will mainly be relying on mirror coat anyway, tho it is losing out on the speed tie with zard x.
~ flamethrower is definitely not mandatory on exeggutor-a in this tier, magneton isnt *that* important and is somewhat specially frail anyway, light screen arguably helps more against it, and dragon tail is preferable for most other fire weak targets, particularly venomoth, as well as (m-)pinsir, jynx, articuno to whatever extent that is relevant, and arguably boosted victreebel, with the notable exception of exeggutor-k. in this tier, dragon tail really cannot replace dragon pulse on exeggutor-a bc it has too many bad matchups and typically needs to be preserved to check dugtrio/jolteon so it doesnt want to randomly phase pokemon in. but dragon tail is its only move that can prevent venomoth from setting up on it as well as for certain predicted switches, maybe slash it first with flamethrower second idk, or dropping both eg for dual screens.
~ clefable has a moveslot issue bc it wants both tbolt for tenta/molt and flamethrower for magneton, but rly doesnt have room for both. twave is needed for zard x, and calm mind is also mandatory with all the special attackers in the tier. so moonblast / twave / calm mind and either stealth rock or pick a coverage move (usually sr since the moveslot and turn is more valuable to most other possible setters). clefable is a decent para spreader with a good matchup vs electrics due to calm mind, but it needs to watch out for cm/encore raichu-a, and a tolerable dugtrio matchup bc of its bulk. its role other than rocks is really limited to that tho, bc it only outspeeds exeggutors, golem/marowak, and m-slowbro which it usually struggles against, and it has very few favorable type matchups (mainly just exeggutor-a) tho it does have the feature of being able to twave a zard x locked into outrage, and it does reasonably well against fire blast/dpulse sets as well. A- is prob fine but i wrote this since i think the suggested set is wrong
~ i dont think victreebel should be trying to run sd in this meta, its too slow, there is very little it can set up on, and it really needs the moveslot as without poison stab it has nothing for zard x, which is presumably the reason for running sd as the primary recovery user in the tier. i think a much better set would be sludge bomb, which does much better damage to zard x (38-45%) and also moltres than pjab and ofc has higher bp so should always be the poison stab used; a choice between mega drain and power whip, mega drain prob usually being preferred for recovery, esp against dugtrio as long as vic is out of eq range, but power whip is better vs tentacruel (esp since it avoids mirror coat) and arguably ice beam m-blastoise; sucker punch for raichu-a / psychics and lolhaunter, and ofc for general priority, and sleep powder (or maybe stun spore is possible) to cripple whatever and is also there to not be setup bait for venomoth. could run +speed to outpace neutral m-blastoise but otherwise just run -speed bc it still outspeeds evthg else it needs to (neutral clefable and below) and to preserve its already mediocre bulk. somewhere in B ranks is prob fine since egg forms fit onto teams more easily since they check dugtrio.
 
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