Social LGBTQIA+

[Exeggutor]

• Many things can be used to "rationalise away uncomfortable or otherwise complicated feelings around [their] sexuality". For example, there are situations in which gay individuals wrongly decide they are trans instead and change their minds later. This does not make the thing itself homophobic- it may however indicate that the user, using it incorrectly, themselves holds rooted homophobic beliefs. That's an issue that isn't caused by the split attraction model, and I am quite sure it would not be solved by somehow abolishing it.
• Calling yourself homoromantic + asexual or whatever is an awful way of rationalising away being gay, because... It's still gay. Unless everyone using these terms is unbelievably dumb I think they'd have noticed that.

It feels a little insulting to say this to someone who has openly reidentified and spoken about their journey. I am a vocal skeptic of transition in many cases and how transition is often used as a form of "easy way out" versus dealing with nonconformity and homophobia. To blame the individuals involved for "making mistakes" and ignore the possible critiques they may have is ignorant and harmful, and I am not here to tolerate any of that whatsoever.

The split attraction model is also what allows for the sort of person to go "well I would fuck a girl but I'd NEVER date one!" to rationalise internalised homophobia into a whole new microidentity.

I can and will be critical of these things when they repeatedly screw over people in being true to themselves. This is one of them.

I'm not sure why my throwaway was something to drag into some big snarky post but I don't particularly care. I will be back with hopefully more happy news the next time someone in this thread decides to poke the hive.

 

[Eve]

It feels a little insulting to say this to someone who has openly reidentified and spoken about their journey. I am a vocal skeptic of transition in many cases and how transition is often used as a form of "easy way out" versus dealing with nonconformity and homophobia. To blame the individuals involved for "making mistakes" and ignore the possible critiques they may have is ignorant and harmful, and I am not here to tolerate any of that whatsoever.

The split attraction model is also what allows for the sort of person to go "well I would fuck a girl but I'd NEVER date one!" to rationalise internalised homophobia into a whole new microidentity.

I can and will be critical of these things when they repeatedly screw over people in being true to themselves. This is one of them.

I'm not sure why my throwaway was something to drag into some big snarky post but I don't particularly care. I will be back with hopefully more happy news the next time someone in this thread decides to poke the hive.

It's late so I don't intend to address the rest of the post right now or handle the shitstorm that would probably ensue from doing so, but I'm genuinely sorry for using that analogy- it was a massively stupid oversight on my part, not that that excuses it. I'm willing to replace or remove it if you'd wish. Thanks for continuing to share your perspective.

this is a three-liner Kris don't say a word

 

[Crux]

I suppose by this point I should not be surprised to get this kind of response to a post that literally just said cishets are cishets but here we are. To clarify, as it appears necessary, I said nothing about universally excluding ace and aro people in general. In fact, I specifically said that they should be included.

Also, most of the points you make in response to the post about the split attraction model were responded to in the initial discussion of that post. You can’t be mad about me pointing out that you didn’t read them when you literally didn’t read them.

However, despite your claim at the start, you don't even attempt to prove that the same is true for sexual and romantic relationships. You simply state that "You only need to look at the myriad of different, yet overlapping and often indistinguishable terms that are used to describe and differentiate them" and yet upon doing so, I still see the quite distinct separation of the performance of sexual acts. Please let me know if I'm wrong about this but it seems quite clear-cut in all honesty. Sure, a sexual relationship will typically contain romantic aspects, but a purely romantic relationship will not contain sexual aspects.

Yes, but this misses the point. The same logic applies from that analogy also applies to romantic and sexual acts. You assume there is such a thing as a sexual act. What counts as a sexual act? When, for example, is kissing a sexual act? When is it romantic? When is it platonic? Is BDSM inherently sexual? Some asexuals would say no (they are wrong). Regardless, apparently asexuals can and do engage in and enjoy sexual acts, so this distinction doesn’t make sense anyway.

Hence: “You only need to look at the myriad of different, yet overlapping and often indistinguishable terms that are used to describe and differentiate them”

This is a very good point- there is definitely a massive amount of rhetoric based on the idea that gay, and other LGBT, individuals are sexual deviants. Once again, this is by no fault of the language of the split attraction model, which in fact doesn't imply this of homo/bisexual individuals at all. To suggest this would be to suggest that people labeled as heterosexual are not also heteroromantic, which is quite clearly absurd. The xromantic label is simply left unsaid as, for most people, their sexual attraction aligns with their romantic attraction and can be inferred. Its use is intended for those who don't fit this mold. When it comes down to it, if homophobes want to misunderstand some words to make us look bad, they'll do it no matter what we say- we shouldn't make hopeless concessions for them.

This is not a response to what I said. My claim is about the ontology of sexuality. And of course it impacts gay people differently to straight people for the reasons I explained as to why it is specifically and uniquely harmful to gay people.

Overall, I almost entirely agree with this paragraph, but once again this boils down to the same point of "something being misused in a bad way doesn't make the thing bad".

This is not a response to what I said. I explained why this is a necessary function of the split attraction model – it can only be used in this way because that is what it is designed to do.

EDIT: Having discussed this with Pokepride's resident aro legend, I have to say that the use of "Many people" seems to possibly be overexaggerating the scope of this issue, but the value of such a term can be subjective. Also focusing this on just young people isn't really fair as it can apply to people of any age range

Of course it is mostly young people - they are more likely to be confused about their sexuality/gender and more likely to have encountered the split attraction model due to its relatively recent invention. But sure, I guess.

Correct, they're LGBTQ+. Next.

You cannot respond to a post that says “here are reasons they should be excluded” with the response “actually, they are included”.

Being chaste until a relationship is not the same as being asexual in the slightest due to societal (especially religious) expectations to find a sexual partner. Next.

I did not say they were the same.

We don't have to prioritise anyone if we just stop having this never-ending debate and get on with useful things that actually make a difference, just my opinion

You have misread the sense in which I say prioritise here. I am referring to the argument about cishet asexuals, not asexuals themselves.

I don't really get this, or why a group should have to benefit the movement, or how groups would benefit the movement other than by having lots of people in them. I would genuinely appreciate elaboration.

Do you think the feminist movement should include TERFs or MRAs?

Less disingenuously, movements have limited social, political, and actual capital, and diluting them by including anyone and everyone harms the efficacy of the movement in terms of helping the people it is trying to protect. Expending resources, time, and energy dealing with the issues of people who are not part of the movement and should not be is harmful in terms of opportunity cost.

It also has ramifications in terms of safe spaces and the inclusion of actual LGBT people within the movement. I can think of lots of reasons that many lesbian and bi women, for example, would be uncomfortable with the inclusion of aro cishet men (and many are).

Movements need an identity and inclusion is not necessarily a good thing. The onus is on the people who want to be included to show how they benefit the movement, not the other way around.

 

[Peary]

My new job has gone pretty well so far, still in training so I have a few exams I need to pass but I’m not too worried about them. One thing that’s really been bothering me is one of my roommates is not only homophobic & transphobic, but is extremely rude as well. I work from home so I need peace and quiet in our room yet he will either be really loud on the phone with someone or play music while I’m working. I’ve had to constantly ask him to either leave the room or stop playing music. He also thinks I’m straight and with the way he throws around a certain word that starts with f along with him making fun of people for looking “gay”, I don’t think I will ever be able to come out to him. Really sick and tired of his shit, he is making me want to leave this sober living and move in with one of my family members. I’m in a really good place mentally, but he has been aggravating me almost every single day at this point. He will say very ignorant things regarding LGBTQ+ people as well, such as “gay people have more rights than normal people” and such. I don’t think I can do anything to change him, but it’s getting really annoying. He also is extremely lazy and dirty so our room always ends up really messy. Leaves his clothes on the floor and never cleans up after himself. I really don’t know what to do, and I’m not exactly seeking advice either, I just wanted to vent a bit. Hopefully, he will either leave or I can find a new room.

 

[tennisace]

sorry im not letting anything sink into my rectum

this post may age more poorly than it already has

 

[Celticpride]

this post may age more poorly than it already has

I see you and the wife are keeping it fresh

 

[Oglemi]

this post may age more poorly than it already has

 

[Avery]

hi, i don't really know how or where to begin this, so i'll just go for it

kinda long

first off, i wouldn't have been able to justify how i had been feeling for the last year or so without help from Kaitlyn and Unicorns, they are the kindest, most patient, and most uplifting people i have ever known in all my time on this site and i could not have figured myself out without their help. thank you, sincerely.

i hadn't really been quite able to piece together my feelings until recently. about a year and a few months ago i went to lollapalooza with a group of female friends and i really clicked with them. not romantically or anything like that; they just accepted me in and it felt natural to be acting more feminine around them, and not acting feminine around my male friends. i previously just wrote this off and when the feeling came up again a few months later, independent of the friend group that was usually accompanying it, i felt strange since i did not know what it meant and had no way to quantify or explain my feelings to myself.

unfortunately, the people i surround myself with lately don't allow me to explore my feminine side around them. it sucks, but the atmosphere they create is one of bigotry and rejection. i cannot really get away from these friends until college, which is thankfully rather soon, because we are all so tight knit, have known one another for far too long, and one of the friends within this group is very honest and trustworthy, which makes it hurt even worse when he says something transphobic or homophobic. there's also my girlfriend, who unfortunately uses smogon, albeit infrequently, who i really hope does not stumble across this post. i really do not want her to know what's going on in my life yet, because she has a myriad of issues with school & her family to deal with first and foremost. the last thing i want on her mind is worries about my gender and sexuality.

once quarantine started & i was able to focus more on myself and what makes me happy, i began to give my feelings a little more thought. i would spend time at night awake, dreaming about what it meant to feel the way i felt. over the last month or so, i started to stay up later and cry more often, and it felt like everything i was feeling could finally be sorting itself out somehow. i feel like the time i've spent reflecting on my feelings over the last year or so - particularly the last few months, really changed how i view my own gender and sexuality.

i thought, with a ton of help from Kaitlyn, that at first i had pinned down my feelings and had decided on genderfluid. i began using they/them pronouns recently and it feels natural, which felt so amazing. however, the more i thought about it, the less it felt like me. i gave my feelings more and more thought and finally decided on the perfect word to encapsulate my feelings. i am nonbinary!

i also was pursuing my thoughts on my sexuality, and it took far less time to come up with a conclusion than it took me to figure out my gender. i was attracted to another man throughout middle & early high school, and he was also my first sexual experience. i still feel like given the chance, i would do it again in a heartbeat, which helped me figure out that i am also bisexual!

i'm still going to keep exploring my own feelings and ill post updates if they ever do come, as they likely will at some point

tl;dr, im nonbinary, bisexual, and would really prefer if you used they/them when referring to me

thanks for reading!

 

[Taptricity]

Hello guys, gals, and nonbinary pals.

Once again I cannot seem to leave this god-forsaken egocentric site, but I love Pokemon and some of y'all in here so I guess I'm back for now.

My hiatus and controversial flop Miss Hoevid-19 has proven to be helpful in allowing me to just think, and feel. As a boy loving, gender-questioning specimen, I've been thinking about the true nature of my identity, through clothing and internal dialogue. Changing vocal inflections, adding overalls, crop-tops, and other non-conforming clothing to my closet, and just meditating for my own well-being. And through it all, I've only learned about the true beauty within myself. That through my experiences I can help inspire others to simply explore their own individual beauty. I'm a firm believer in how one heart can touch the lives of others. That one's compassion will beget another's. So do what you can to reach out to others, develop friendships, explore your own queer beauty. You are so deserving of love and people will love you when you live your life as your most honest self without any lingering doubts.

Especially during treacherous times like this, it's worth it to make self-reflections and remember your truth and how you want to live out that truth. Reject that fallacy of normalcy, as it is an authoritative lie. They try to indoctrinate us into their baseless standards when this colorful world isn't suited for it, all the while betraying those very standards. To be normal is to be perfect, and to be perfect is to not be human.

I love that I'm queer, I love that I'm on the spectrum, and I love that I have met so many fascinating and amazing people in this life.

So please keep continuing to embrace your truths, and if you're in a position that masks this truth, I hope you will one day be free of that burden.

Enjoy the holidays.

 

[Amberr]

bi

 

[blank]

Lauriane things can differ depending on where you're from, but given i live in a somewhat conservative area, hopefully my experience can be of use to you. normally i would say such things privately, but i figure this can be useful to other people who view this thread.

something i have learned from interacting with dozens and dozens of straight, cis friends irl is that many just have not been exposed to LGBT people and issues irl. some were definitely raised to be homophobic and transphobic, but most were just raised to be uncomfortable. prior to being out, i found that by breaching these subjects with friends and saying "why would it bug you?" "why make jokes about that?" etc., most of the ones i was actually close friends with started to realize that it's not nice to say these things. not all, of course, but hey that's life.

another thing is, it's different when the LGBT person is someone these people are already friends with. again, this obviously does not mean that "oh everyone is just ignorant on these things and you just need to educate them and then they will accept all people." there are definitely people out there who are just plain bigoted, and odds are you might have some friends like this (at least, based on your post). in my experience, though, i found that most people i became good friends with were... not bad people? so even if they were uninformed on LGBT issues with no interactions with LGBT people, they were able to understand things when it pertained to and/or was coming from me.

prior to coming out (and before i had come to terms with things), one of my closest friends was basically a radical, fundamentalist christian who would talk about how gay people are all going to hell. he's from an abusive household, and his parents have pushed these views on him for decades now. as i started to come to terms with my sexuality, i started to talk to him more about these issues, and i eventually came out to him. since then, he has realized how harmful his past views were (they weren't really "his" to be fair), and he's been very supportive of me. this is just one example, but my point is, if you have made good friends, some of them will be accepting i'm sure, and those that aren't are probably not the best people to begin with lol. sucks, i know, but having to cut off friends isn't uncommon for LGBT people when we come out...

nonetheless, remember to come out at your own pace. please do what makes you most comfortable at the end of the day.

 

[Cenane]

hi, i don't really know how or where to begin this, so i'll just go for it

kinda long

first off, i wouldn't have been able to justify how i had been feeling for the last year or so without help from Kaitlyn and Unicorns, they are the kindest, most patient, and most uplifting people i have ever known in all my time on this site and i could not have figured myself out without their help. thank you, sincerely.

i hadn't really been quite able to piece together my feelings until recently. about a year and a few months ago i went to lollapalooza with a group of female friends and i really clicked with them. not romantically or anything like that; they just accepted me in and it felt natural to be acting more feminine around them, and not acting feminine around my male friends. i previously just wrote this off and when the feeling came up again a few months later, independent of the friend group that was usually accompanying it, i felt strange since i did not know what it meant and had no way to quantify or explain my feelings to myself.

unfortunately, the people i surround myself with lately don't allow me to explore my feminine side around them. it sucks, but the atmosphere they create is one of bigotry and rejection. i cannot really get away from these friends until college, which is thankfully rather soon, because we are all so tight knit, have known one another for far too long, and one of the friends within this group is very honest and trustworthy, which makes it hurt even worse when he says something transphobic or homophobic. there's also my girlfriend, who unfortunately uses smogon, albeit infrequently, who i really hope does not stumble across this post. i really do not want her to know what's going on in my life yet, because she has a myriad of issues with school & her family to deal with first and foremost. the last thing i want on her mind is worries about my gender and sexuality.

once quarantine started & i was able to focus more on myself and what makes me happy, i began to give my feelings a little more thought. i would spend time at night awake, dreaming about what it meant to feel the way i felt. over the last month or so, i started to stay up later and cry more often, and it felt like everything i was feeling could finally be sorting itself out somehow. i feel like the time i've spent reflecting on my feelings over the last year or so - particularly the last few months, really changed how i view my own gender and sexuality.

i thought, with a ton of help from Kaitlyn, that at first i had pinned down my feelings and had decided on genderfluid. i began using they/them pronouns recently and it feels natural, which felt so amazing. however, the more i thought about it, the less it felt like me. i gave my feelings more and more thought and finally decided on the perfect word to encapsulate my feelings. i am nonbinary!

i also was pursuing my thoughts on my sexuality, and it took far less time to come up with a conclusion than it took me to figure out my gender. i was attracted to another man throughout middle & early high school, and he was also my first sexual experience. i still feel like given the chance, i would do it again in a heartbeat, which helped me figure out that i am also bisexual!

i'm still going to keep exploring my own feelings and ill post updates if they ever do come, as they likely will at some point

tl;dr, im nonbinary, bisexual, and would really prefer if you used they/them when referring to me

thanks for reading!

I’m so proud of you. You deserve so much love and happiness. Congrats on coming out! I love you :3 <3

 

[pulsar512b]

hi, i don't really know how or where to begin this, so i'll just go for it

kinda long

first off, i wouldn't have been able to justify how i had been feeling for the last year or so without help from Kaitlyn and Unicorns, they are the kindest, most patient, and most uplifting people i have ever known in all my time on this site and i could not have figured myself out without their help. thank you, sincerely.

i hadn't really been quite able to piece together my feelings until recently. about a year and a few months ago i went to lollapalooza with a group of female friends and i really clicked with them. not romantically or anything like that; they just accepted me in and it felt natural to be acting more feminine around them, and not acting feminine around my male friends. i previously just wrote this off and when the feeling came up again a few months later, independent of the friend group that was usually accompanying it, i felt strange since i did not know what it meant and had no way to quantify or explain my feelings to myself.

unfortunately, the people i surround myself with lately don't allow me to explore my feminine side around them. it sucks, but the atmosphere they create is one of bigotry and rejection. i cannot really get away from these friends until college, which is thankfully rather soon, because we are all so tight knit, have known one another for far too long, and one of the friends within this group is very honest and trustworthy, which makes it hurt even worse when he says something transphobic or homophobic. there's also my girlfriend, who unfortunately uses smogon, albeit infrequently, who i really hope does not stumble across this post. i really do not want her to know what's going on in my life yet, because she has a myriad of issues with school & her family to deal with first and foremost. the last thing i want on her mind is worries about my gender and sexuality.

once quarantine started & i was able to focus more on myself and what makes me happy, i began to give my feelings a little more thought. i would spend time at night awake, dreaming about what it meant to feel the way i felt. over the last month or so, i started to stay up later and cry more often, and it felt like everything i was feeling could finally be sorting itself out somehow. i feel like the time i've spent reflecting on my feelings over the last year or so - particularly the last few months, really changed how i view my own gender and sexuality.

i thought, with a ton of help from Kaitlyn, that at first i had pinned down my feelings and had decided on genderfluid. i began using they/them pronouns recently and it feels natural, which felt so amazing. however, the more i thought about it, the less it felt like me. i gave my feelings more and more thought and finally decided on the perfect word to encapsulate my feelings. i am nonbinary!

i also was pursuing my thoughts on my sexuality, and it took far less time to come up with a conclusion than it took me to figure out my gender. i was attracted to another man throughout middle & early high school, and he was also my first sexual experience. i still feel like given the chance, i would do it again in a heartbeat, which helped me figure out that i am also bisexual!

i'm still going to keep exploring my own feelings and ill post updates if they ever do come, as they likely will at some point

tl;dr, im nonbinary, bisexual, and would really prefer if you used they/them when referring to me

thanks for reading!

hey gratz on figuring this out, remember you from nat dex stuff while back (dropped off a bit, coming back to pokemon slowly), glad you figured some stuff out!

 

[kolohe]

hey! i drew some pride flag kirbys, theyre free to use if you guys are interested.

kirb!

 

[Snowjy]

hope you don’t mind if i steal your idea sevelon >.<

long

I’ve written something like this before so I hope you can bear with any issues there may be in the spelling/grammar department.

Starting off I just want to thank Nalei for being a person to talk to when I was super lost and knew next to nothing about who I really am. ily <3

I’ve lead a fairly normal life up to this point and I’ve never really had anything major that has blocked me from being normal. That was who I am. Normal. A normal, white, middle class boy with two older sisters and two working parents. My parents never had any issues, I’ve never had to worry about, well, anything.

Growing up, being the youngest, I naturally looked as my sisters as role models. We played with the same toys, lived in the same bedrooms (yes, we had a bunk bed and a loft don’t worry), and just really, loved each other. We spent every single day together and it was amazing. We still get along very well with my oldest sister getting ready to find a college. How does all of this tie in with what I’m talking about? I’ll get there.

In my middle school years, I again was fairly normal. I never hung out with the “cool” kids but I still had a few very close ones. I was a pretty good student overall, I played video games and watched anime. Just like any normal early teen. I’ve never questioned my gender or sexuality at all. It’s not that my family wouldn’t necessarily accept me I just always felt obligated to fill the secondary man of the house and baby boy. Marry a pretty girl and have kids.

It wasn’t until around Thanksgiving of this year that I began heavily pondering my gender. I’d think about it 24/7 and still do. I couldn’t get it off my mind for some reason. I put on a facade of my usual self and just thought. I went over my life so far as a whole.

It wasn’t until about a week ago that I came to a conclusion of what had happened to me. My feminine feelings had been dormant. I, am not a normal, white male. I am a transgender female. I felt so at home and comfortable playing with my sisters toys and I think I really have found out who I am. Yes, I do agree that I should have more time to really think it over but my feelings are so strong I’m 95% sure I’m correct. I’ve tried using the alternate pronouns and I feel so warm and comfortable when they’re used I can’t help but smile.

I’ve also thought a fair bit about my sexuality. I’ve always had crushes on girls and I don’t see that ever changing. I am lesbian. I am a transgender female lesbian and I am proud.

I’ve recently (within the past few days) come out to my mother about everything I’ve been feeling and she’s taken it much better than I expected. She now prides herself with researching everything there is to know about gender and sexuality and I’m so glad she’s taking it seriously.

I’d like to sincerely thank everybody who’s read this all the way through and I plan on keeping you all posted on anything that changes. I love you all and have an amazing day!


tldr: I am a transgender lesbian woman and would like to be addressed using she/her ty! also you can call me jam instead of using my whole name.

 

[pulsar512b]

also you can call me jam instead of using my whole name.

i am so tempted to make jam puns

Also congrats on figuring all this out!

 

[Ayia]

Hey, kinda new to this thread; just have a few questions about something I read here. So context: I'm a homosexual and (likely) biromantic male. Was talking with a friend about this and she referred me to the following post, which discusses flaws in the split attraction model. But I kinda disagree with one of the main premises:

There is no coherent distinction between sexual/romantic/platonic attraction or connection.

They go into why romantic/platonic don't have a clear distinction, which I do agree with, but they never discuss why sexual/romantic don't have a clear distinction. I didn't even know how they could be related (since they're unrelated in my mind) until a friend of mine explained it to me and it made sense how someone could relate the two. Even so, personally I still don't see romantic attraction as blurred with sexual attraction. I've even had cases where they're completely distinct: I've been romantically attracted to females in the past despite being homosexual. I don't even see how romantic attraction is related to gender in the first place, but again that might be a personal thing lol

anyway opinions on this matter would be nice! Specifically, if you think that there is no distinction between sexual and romantic attraction for anyone,
1) why are they so inseparable?
2) why have I created the illusion for myself that they are separable?
not trying to start an argument, just trying to get some opinions that are better informed than mine (i literally only have anecdotal evidence and what my friends have given me lol). My current opinion is that the level of distinction between romantic and sexual attraction, like many other things, is individual, just based on the vastly different experience me and the friend I was discussing this with had. but let me know what you think! thanks in advance!

 

[Crux]

1) why are they so inseparable?
2) why have I created the illusion for myself that they are separable?

1) I go into the distinction between sexual and romantic attraction in more detail in this post and in the replies to the original post. Essentially, the same logic that applies to the distinction between romantic and platonic attractions applies to the distinction between romantic and sexual attraction. Your individual experiences do not justify a new model of sexuality - the onus is on the people who support such a model to prove that the distinction exists.

2) No clue, I don't know you. Usually, however, this confusion stems from some combination of internalised homophobia and a theory of gender and sexuality that substitutes tumblr and twitter takes for actual analysis. You need to stop centring your own experiences and then claiming they say anything about sexuality or gender as they are actually constructed (because they don't - gender and sexuality are far too complicated for us to comprehend with reference to our own personal feelings about them) and interrogate your own feelings in a lot more depth. If you are interested in actually learning about theory, I usually recommend this as a start (although it is a difficult read, it is worth it and may clear up a lot of this confusion.)

 

[Ayia]

Uh yeah I'm not saying that my individual experiences "justify a new model of sexuality" and I'm not at all claiming that they "say anything about sexuality and gender as they are constructed"; that's why I specifically clarified that I only had anecdotal evidence in the post. Literally only said that to give context for my confusion and personal beliefs. In fact, I came here so that I could get opinions from people who are more informed about theory

but thanks ig for the quick response, I'll read through want you linked later today

 

[Crux]

Uh yeah I'm not saying that my individual experiences "justify a new model of sexuality" and I'm not at all claiming that they "say anything about sexuality and gender as they are constructed"; that's why I specifically clarified that I only had anecdotal evidence in the post. Literally only said that to give context for my confusion and personal beliefs. In fact, I came here so that I could get opinions from people who are more informed about theory

but thanks ig for the quick response, I'll read through want you linked later today

You said that your experiences indicated that there was a distinction between romantic and sexual attraction. That is a new model (i.e the split attraction model) of sexuality. It was literally invented in the last 10 years. That is what the post that you were responding to was talking about - a response from which you are now backpedalling. There is no evidence it actually makes sense as a model of sexuality. That is what I mean in the quotes you mention. But perhaps I am wrong. If you think there are legitimate distinctions there, explain them and explain your experiences if you genuinely subscribe to this view.

 

[Hogg]

OK, see, this shit is unacceptable.

I’ve been reluctant to step in here because I think that discourse overall is a good thing and there’s nothing wrong with criticism of use of models such as the split attraction model. But Crux, for the last two pages, most of what I have seen is you actively discouraging or discounting the experiences of those who are identifying as asexual or aromantic, challenging them to prove what “value” they bring to the LGBTQ+ community, belittling people who share their personal experiences and even going as far as to compare the inclusion of aces and aros into the LGBTQ+ community to forcing feminists to include TERFs and MRAs into their community. This is way beyond anything resembling reasonable discourse, and has turned the corner into outright bullying. It’s unacceptable anywhere and it’s especially unacceptable here, in a space that should be safe for people to share and discuss their experiences.

I’m not asexual or aromantic myself, so I haven’t really wanted to get too involved. A lot of the attacks levied at the asexual and aromantic community do feel unfortunately familiar to me, though. I don’t tend to talk publicly about my own sexuality here for a variety of reasons. My age and position of authority is a big one: I’m 36 years old, which both means that my own experiences are likely not going to be super relevant to those who are significantly younger than me, and also that frankly I’m a bit uncomfortable talking much about sex and sexuality with those that are underage given the ~20 year age gap and authority position I have as a staff member here. Another big one is that I’ve spent the last 13 years in a monogamous heterosexual relationship, and I think there’s a pretty good chance that I will remain in it for the rest of my life (here's hoping!). If you only met me in 2007 or later, you’d have every reason to assume I’m cishet. It means I have a very different lived experience than the majority of what people here have.

But despite all that, I am bisexual, and first identified as such in the late 90s. My first active relationship with another man was in 1999 at the age of 15. I bring this up because the landscape was very different for bisexuals in that period, not just among heterosexual communities but also in gay communities, where I was often dismissed either as someone who was gay but too full of internalized homophobia to openly identify as such, or who was just “toying” with homosexuality to gain entrance into gay spaces that I didn’t belong in. In 2002 I went to Antioch College in Ohio, in what was at the time one of the most radical queer spaces in the world, and yet often found myself excluded for those same reasons. I had a single long term male partner for most of my time in college, interspersed with many shorter term relationships and encounters that were mostly with women, and once again I found myself simultaneously accused of being both a fake gay and being gay but too homophobic to admit it. The concept of bi erasure from queer spaces isn't new: Professor Kenji Yoshino coined the concept of an "epistemic contract" of bisexual erasure between self-identified heterosexuals and homosexuals due to overlapping interests back in 2000, arguing that both communities sought to erase the category of bisexuality because they benefited from the stabilization of exclusive sexual orientation categories and the retention of sex as an important diacritical axis.

Anyhow, I'm not bringing this up to be all "woe is me." I've had a pretty privileged life overall, and the fact that for the majority of my adult life I have reasonably passed as cishet (not necessarily intentionally so, but it's generally the default assumption for dudes that are married to women, especially those with children) has certainly granted me various advantages. The reason I bring all this up is because the anti-ace discourse I have seen levied over the past 5 years or so, and regurgitated by Crux here, feels really shockingly familiar. All the same accusations are coming back up again: that identifying as bi/homosexual but aromantic or asexual but bi/homoromantic is actually offensive and reinforces internalized homophobia, that aces and aros benefit from cishet privilege and therefore shouldn't be included within the LGBTQ+ community, that aces and aros are attempting to "sneak into" spaces that don't belong to them. These are the exact same arguments that I've been hearing for more than 20 years for why bisexuals don't belong in queer spaces.

It feels like gatekeeping, and it feels especially offensive here, where people believe they're entering a safe space where they can discuss who they are and what they're going through, and are met with outright dismissal and exclusion. It's ironic that you compared being "forced" into including aces and aros into the community as equivalent to requiring feminists to include TERFs, because these arguments are really reminiscent of TERF arguments that trans women benefited from male privilege and therefore can't be feminists. Never mind that major depressive episodes and suicidal ideation among self-identified asexuals is often significantly higher than those who identified as heterosexual or homosexual (source1 source2). Never mind that asexuals, especially asexual women, are targets of corrective rape and other sexual violence (source1 source2). Never mind that belittling people for bringing up their own personal and lived experiences and reducing said experiences to "tumblr and twitter takes" as a substitute for actual analysis is nothing but a bad-faith argument to stymie and put down any potential disagreement.

So yeah, if you want to discuss issues with, for example, the split attraction model or how it's used (and while I'm far from an expert on the matter, it seems like a good portion of the ace and aro community agrees that there are issues!), that's fine. But either do it in a way that doesn't put down or attack users and their experiences, or fuck off.

 

[Ayia]

tea i was gonna post this but I was kinda nervous but I think that Hogg your previous post gives me more confidence to do that so thank you :)

This is stupid, I was hoping for something nice, productive, or informative, but clearly I'm not going to get that here. Last thing I'm going to say in this thread, probably ever: Crux I think the fact that you deleted a post that said something along the lines of "Fair cop, but still abandon the split attraction model" and replaced it with your post where you accuse me of backpedalling really demonstrates that you are far more interested in being right than being helpful or nice. But I'll defend myself against your last post anyway.

I am not backpedaling: I think the confusion you might have is that you think that just because I have a current thought process, means I think that thought process is correct. If you took the time to actually read what I was saying, you'd notice I
1) specifically asked questions to people who think my current thought process is incorrect
2) admitted that I don't have much knowledge on the topic and exclusively have anecdotal evidence
3) outright stated that I don't want to have an argument and simply wish to be informed
all of which show that I knew that my thought process might be flawed and that I was very willing to change it. So saying that I claimed my personal experience defines sexuality/gender when that's literally the opposite of what I was doing -- denying my own experience in order to search for a more informed opposing opinion -- is insulting, and I don't want part of any conversation here if this is what I'm getting as a result. Now, you can argue about the semantics of what I said all you want, but I know the intention of my original post was conveyed quite clearly and so I'm choosing not to argue it any further.

If someone who's rather informed wants to have an actual conversation (instead of berating me for something I'm not doing) with me about this, feel free to DM me on Discord @Ayia#8852, I'd love to chat and learn more about this topic!

sorry this was so long im just kinda upset

 

[Exeggutor]

I did say I'd come back when the pot got stirred again, didn't I? That didn't take long!

She'd been calling me her girlfriend this whole time and I was just too cowardly to ask. I have a girlfriend now!

 

[Exeggutor]

Actually, I do have something of actual worth to contribute for once!

I am very happy to see people living authentically whenever I see people speak about it online, but there's this assumed solidarity to the way that I am LGBT and the way others are LGBT that just doesn't exist. I liken it to the way people expect me to have had the same experiences by virtue of us both being black. It gets frustrating sometimes living in this country and trying to emphasize that no, I do not share your background or your experiences here; I grew up in my home country with different expectations, conversations and perceptions of race. The assumption feels half-insulting and half-erasing my experiences altogether.

There is an expected solidarity from what I'll describe as a very "online androgynous" type person - someone with dyed hair and piercings, probably an undercut, Bowie and TikTok-inspired in their fashion and in their perception of being "queer" - and myself because we are gender nonconforming. I do not get that. I do not feel a sense of solidarity in our expression. The floaty, alt androgynous twink type look is not something that fits on me - not to disrespect it, it's just not me - and it's not how I am perceived. I am usually perceived as either:

1. A chubby boy,
2. A man, or
3. A mannish lesbian.

I may be mannish, but I am none of those three options.

When I see people who fit my earlier descriptions talking about how easy it is to own your gender nonconformity, or how radical their choices are, or speaking on behalf of every gender-nonconforming person, I can't help but feel a little upset. We have barely anything in common and - and I say this with no hard feelings - you do not get perceived as a threat the way I do. You do not have to navigate life the way I do, you do not deal with the same communities I do, you do not deal with conflict the way I do. It's so tiring reading about people whose perceptions of their gender and sexuality are solely confined to what they see online instead of having to live as someone visibly different in real life - and I'm talking about adults, not children!

There's no real point to this post, it's just me getting something off my chest. I get perceived as not just different or some quirky aesthetic, but as a whole person, as someone different, and often as a threat. What I'd give to have my problems be confined to social media instead of being followed into bathrooms in real life.

 

[Spiderz]

1) I go into the distinction between sexual and romantic attraction in more detail in this post and in the replies to the original post. Essentially, the same logic that applies to the distinction between romantic and platonic attractions applies to the distinction between romantic and sexual attraction. Your individual experiences do not justify a new model of sexuality - the onus is on the people who support such a model to prove that the distinction exists.

2) No clue, I don't know you. Usually, however, this confusion stems from some combination of internalised homophobia and a theory of gender and sexuality that substitutes tumblr and twitter takes for actual analysis. You need to stop centring your own experiences and then claiming they say anything about sexuality or gender as they are actually constructed (because they don't - gender and sexuality are far too complicated for us to comprehend with reference to our own personal feelings about them) and interrogate your own feelings in a lot more depth. If you are interested in actually learning about theory, I usually recommend this as a start (although it is a difficult read, it is worth it and may clear up a lot of this confusion.)

#2 Sounds like a homophobic parent telling their child "you are confused, you are not gay" don't be a hypocrite dude