Resource LGPE OverUsed Viability Rankings

Yoshi

And so the adventure begins.
is a Pre-Contributor

[art by AmirAlexander]

Welcome to the official LGPE OU Viability Rankings thread! This thread will be used by the community in order to rank all usable Pokémon in the LGPE OU Tier. You're encouraged to civilly post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in LGPE OU and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each LGPE OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order.

To make ranking these Pokemon easier the LGPE Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank. Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup. However, something to remember while ranking is that filling criteria is not a black and white process. Pokemon A might have a stronger effect on the metagame compared to Pokemon B, but Pokemon B might still influence teambuilding a lot. Take into account the varying degrees of these criteria as you reflect on a nomination.

Current VR Council:
Ezaphs
Funbot28
Kris
ABR
Hayburner
rhydonphilip
aim
that ivy guy

S Rank:
Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.

S
Mew
S-
Mega Gengar​


A Rank:
Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back.

A+
Mega Beedrill​
Dragonite​
A
Alolan Dugtrio​
Poliwrath​
Rhydon
Zapdos
A-
Snorlax​
B Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.

B+
Mega Charizard X​
Nidoqueen​
B
Alolan Exeggutor​
Clefable​
Gengar​
Nidoking​
B-
Alolan Sandslash​
Chansey​
Electrode​
Gyarados​
Mega Kangaskhan​
Mega Pinsir​
Sandslash​
Mega Slowbro​
C-Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount of negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.

Upper
Mega Blastoise​
Cloyster​
Dodrio​
Omastar​
Pikachu (Starter)​
Alolan Raichu​
Rapidash​
Victreebel​

Lower
Arcanine​
Alolan Ninetales​
Hitmonlee​
Kabutops​
Moltres​
Golem​
Ninetales​
Alolan Persian​
D Rank
  • Everything Else!
Current Discussion Points:

None​
 
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Yoshi

And so the adventure begins.
is a Pre-Contributor
This is currently very unupdated. We are working on a slate as I type this and it should be coming out within the next few days. Now is your chance to post updated nominations!
 

Yoshi

And so the adventure begins.
is a Pre-Contributor
Rises
Mega Beedrill -> A-
Mega Gengar -> A+
Alolan Dugtrio -> A-
Alolan Exeggutor -> B+
Dragonite -> B+
Poliwrath -> A-
Clefable -> B-
Exeggutor -> C-
Dodrio -> C+
Snorlax -> B+
Sandslash -> B-
Mega Kangaskhan -> B-
Electrode -> C+

Drops
Mega Alakazam -> A+
Starter Eevee -> A-
Zapdos -> A-
Mega Venusaur -> B+
Cloyster -> C+
Moltres -> C+
Mega Slowbro -> B-
Hitmonlee -> UR
Venomoth -> C+
Alakazam -> B-
Gyarados -> B-
Nidoqueen -> B+
Alolan Sandslash -> C+
Tauros -> UR
Parasect -> UR
Rapidash -> UR
Mega Charizard Y -> UR

Quite the rap sheet of changes here! On the slate we had 28 different Pokemon that we voted on, which can be found here. Outside of that slate, there were Tauros, Parasect, Rapidash, and Mega Charizard Y, which obviously have no merit in this meta and hence were unranked appropriately. Since there are so many changes this time around, I won't be going over all of them here, but rather the ones that might be controversial.

In terms of the sudden rise of Mega Beedrill from UR to A-, it is definitely a Pokemon that has been underrated for sometime now. While it is out speeded by Mega Alakazam and Aerodactyl, it is still able to pivot around and check certain threats like Mew. While it is a bit defenseless against Pokemon like Melmetal, it can always U-Turn right out. It does carry the weakness of Stealth Rock, which puts it at A-. Dragonite may come as a surprise to people as well. It has pretty great coverage, even in a meta where a lot less moves exist than they did in the past. It also has access to Agility, and combined with its decent Speed, high attack stats, and fairly good bulk, it can pull off a sweeper set, should you manage to get one off. Clefable has also been on the rise, and while you could say Melmetal exists to easily check Clefable, it is necessary to keep in mind that Clefable has access to Calm Mind + Fire Blast, which puts Melmetal at risk to taking heavy hits. Melmetal is also the only viable Steel-type in the tier, meaning Clefable usually has free reign to click Moonblast, even against some of the tiers Poison-types such as Alolan Muk, which takes neutral damage to Moonblast, and Mega Venusaur, which of course is weak to Fire Blast without the reduced damage from Thick Fat due to the lack of abilities. Exeggutor is another new Pokemon you'll find, and is simply ranked thanks to its Grass- and Psychic-type coverage, as well as its access to Sleep Powder. We decided to rank Dodrio thanks to its high Speed + Attack stats. Having access to two relatively powerful moves in Frustration and Drill Peck. Of course, they aren't the most strongest moves in the world, and paired with a Stealth Rock weakness and being very frail, it is placed at C+. For those of you who don't play the tier as much as others, Sandslash may be an entirely new Pokemon to you in this meta. However, those who have experience know the potential of Sandslash. It can be a great blanket check to Zapdos, being able to hit it with its two coverage moves in Rock Slide and Toxic. It is also a consistent offensive Stealth Rock user, as well as being fairly strong. The only thing holding back Sandslash is its merely decent Speed, placing it at B- (for now). Mega Kangaskhan is a Pokemon that was heavily underrated from the start. It has two great priority moves in Fake Out + Sucker Punch, as well as being able to throw off strong moves like Double-Edge in Earthquake, even without Parental Bond. However, it does run the risk of catching a Will-O-Wisp from Pokemon like Mew and Gengar, and its low Speed makes it susceptible to be chipped down easily. Lastly, Electrode is ranked for its ability to efficiently set up Reflect and Light Screen. This is thanks to its high Speed, which also gives it the merit of being able to speed tie the fast threats Mega Aerodactyl and Alakazam, being able to deal more with the former more efficiently.

For the drops, the sudden drop of Mega Alakazam may definitely come as a surprise to some of you. While it was just put in S rank in one of the most recent slates, its effectiveness in game has definitely dropped down a bit, and that's simply because Mega Gengar is generally a more useful mega. Also, it is clear that Mew and Melmetal are far above the viability of Mega Alakazam, which is why it dropped to A+. We decided a Zapdos drop was appropriate because it really isn't as good as a tank as it is on paper. It will almost always be taking Stealth Rock chip every time it comes in, and can catch a Rock Slide, Toxic, or even an Ice Punch from the thing it is supposed to counter, Melmetal. Zapdos can still be a great tank, though, leaving it at A-. Nothing else here should really come to a surprise to anyone, perhaps Alakazam and Gyarados dropping so low would be the only other two. They dropped so low because their mega counterparts are just so much better; If you have an Alakazam or a Gyarados, you're really wasting a ton of potential, especially with Gyarados, which loses a STAB and keeps a weakness to Stealth Rock. Generally, you should really put these on teams where you are going to mega them the majority of the time. If not, they truly lose their effectiveness.

If you guys have any other questions about some of these Pokemon, please ask us on Discord or Pokemon Showdown. The OP will be updated accordingly either today or tomorrow. Thanks!
 
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LL

zion williamson
is a Pre-Contributor
After this ranking update, these rankings look a lot more in line with what my personal ideal for the rankings are based on the current metagame, but I still have a few changes to suggest.

1547087240598.pngA+>A-
I understand that Mega Alakazam just dropped in the most recent update, but it didn't drop nearly enough. Mega Alakazam is significantly worse than Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Gyarados which are the "big 3" of the best megas in the tier in my eyes. It fits much better in A- with Bee, a pretty solid mega that can clean a lot of teams, but can't quite break through the ceiling of A+ due to clearly being worse than everything comparable to it in that rank. I just find Mega Gengar to be a lot more effective when the best mon in the tier is Melmetal as well its increased access to coverage and utility options to dispatch of would be counters, such as Disable and Thunder(bolt). This isn't to say that Mega Alakazam is complete garbage, it's just not effective enough nor as easy to use as the rest of the mons currently occupying A+ rank.

1547087760953.pngA->B+ or B-
Eevee is just...baddy bad. I get that being the only cleric in the tier is cool and all, but it's too frail to actually be effective, lacks reliable recovery beyond Sappy Seed, and is just generally super underwhelming. I find teamslots in this tier to be even more important than role compression-centric metas like ORAS OU and SM OU and a lot of games it ends up just sitting there and not really doing anything of note. I get that Swirl can be nice cause it lets u run stuff like rest stak and gives insurance against Mew, and that's the only reason why I'm saying it should be ranked in the first place, it's just not worth using aside from its sole role of being a cleric and is damn useless more often than not.

1547102137178.pngB+>A-
On a more positive note, I believe that Dragonite should rise to A- rank. It's one of the best cleaners in the entire tier and arguably the best late-game sweeper with Agility, especially considering how easy it is to chip everything with perma-rocks. You can very easily set up and blast past weakened teams with Agility, as Staka and Clef are really the only 2 commonly used dragon resists in this tier and Dragonite's respectable bulk coupled with its access to roost and strong attacking prowess making it a nightmare to revenge kill. I've seen this thing blow past numerous teams and really think it should be moved up to A-, where it fits in a lot better. I would personally bump it all the way up to A+ with how effective I've found its cleaner set to be, but I understand not wanting to do a multiple rank rise right after scooting it up to B+

I've got a couple more things in mind, but these three noms are the main ones I wanted to focus on here. I hope you guys found this post insightful and I look forward to seeing further development of the metagame!
 
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Ezaphs

^-^
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
It's time for our most ambitious VR change yet! The majority of the council voted in favour of adding middle A and B subranks, giving us more space to distinguish viability of the top mons. With this came the opportunity to re-evaluate every A or B mon, as well as sorting out C rank. Here are the changes!

Rises
Mega Beedrill A- -> A+
Alolan Dugtrio A- -> A
Poliwrath A- -> A
Zapdos A- -> A
Dragonite B+ -> A

Mega Venusaur B+ -> A-
Snorlax B- -> A-
Victreebel Unranked -> C+ McCoolDude ;)


Drops
Mega Alakazam A+ -> A
Mega Aerodactyl A+ -> A
Alolan Muk A+ -> A
Aerodactyl A- -> B
Alolan Exeggutor B+ -> B
Nidoking B+ -> B
Mega Blastoise B- -> C+
Kabutops B- -> C-
Alolan Ninetales C+ -> C-
Alolan Raticate C+ -> Unranked

As always, give us your opinions on these changes and other mons you think deserve one! We take your thoughts into consideration when making VR changes.
 
Victreebel Unranked -> C+ McCoolDude ;)
I just wanted to add that this is exactly where I would have put victreebel, and I have used it in probably 50-100 matches (maybe more? Hard to say).

It's an extremely hard-hitting Mon, with a 120BP STAB move, swords dance, sleep powder, toxic/powder immunity, and a priority attack. It does have serious drawbacks in the current meta (melmetal and dnite are hard to touch), but can be used as a breaker or a sweeper pretty easily.

Adding a link to the set I use and some more info.
 
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I think everything on the tier list is about where it should be, but I do take issue with one in particular:

158768
C+ -> UR

Having a 4x weakness to rocks in a meta without hazard control is bad enough - but Moltres really gets shafted by LGPE. Coverage is relegated to its main STABs, and while that is certainly a solid offensive typing - it leaves it easily walled by Rhydon and Aerodactyl, both of which are very common Pokemon:

Moltres Fire Blast vs. Mega Aerodactyl: 39-46 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Mega Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. Moltres: 240-288 (145.4 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Moltres Fire Blast vs. Rhydon: 69-81 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Modest) Moltres Fire Blast vs. Rhydon: 76-90 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Moltres: 256-304 (155.1 - 184.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

One niche Moltres has is as a fast Will-o-Wisper, but with its very poor defensive typing and much slower speed, I don't think there's much of a reason to justify using it over Mew.

If Mega Charizard Y, a comparable Pokemon, was Unranked for much of the same reason, I don't see why Moltres shouldn't be.

I could write more but I'm too tired, hopefully this got the gist of it!!
 
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Mega Charizard Y's big downfall is the fact that it steals your mega slot. Moltres does have the option of U-turn, Will-o-wisp, and Roost, as you described; it can have some decent longevity if allowed to come in healthy or Roost off SR damage. It's not particularly usable in OU but still a niche pick, whereas Zard requires a sacrifice of something actually good.
It is true that there isn't much difference between C rank and UL. A lot of the choices there are subjective. Below B, the viability becomes stretched thin.
(And unrelated, but it's epic in UU, give it a try!)
 
Mega Charizard Y's big downfall is the fact that it steals your mega slot. Moltres does have the option of U-turn, Will-o-wisp, and Roost, as you described; it can have some decent longevity if allowed to come in healthy or Roost off SR damage. It's not particularly usable in OU but still a niche pick, whereas Zard requires a sacrifice of something actually good.
It is true that there isn't much difference between C rank and UL. A lot of the choices there are subjective. Below B, the viability becomes stretched thin.
(And unrelated, but it's epic in UU, give it a try!)
The problem with Roost is that Moltres can only use it after forcing something out. It does this handily, sure - but if they switch into a check, Moltres is forced to switch and ends up taking 50% regardless. I did forget to mention U-Turn in the OP, whoops - but it’s also worth noting.

Also yeah Moltres is amazing in UU!!
 
I think Hitmonlee deserves one more kick....
158841

UR >> C-

Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. Hitmonlee: 109-129 (87.2 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Mega Gyarados: 162-192 (95.2 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Hitmonlee can come in and at least force out M-Gyara, other M-Gyara has a strong chance to be killed. If M-gyara does go out and Hitmonlee isnt killed, it can pull of a Toxic.

Possible Moveset Jolly w/ High Jump Kick, Facade, Earthquake/Rockslide, Bulk Up

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Melmetal: 126-150 (60 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If Melmetal isnt Double Iron Bash, it will come in and take a hit and be able to do damage to Melmetal.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Muk-Alola: 109-129 (60.5 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO . It's not bad against Alolan Muk.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Snorlax: 270-318 (114.8 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Kills Snorlax.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Chansey: 848-1002 (260.9 - 308.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Kills Chansey.

The one disadvantage it has to Poliwrath as a fighter is it's a 3OHKO on Dragonite with Rockslide using Jolly Nature and it doesnt have Waterfall to take on M-Aero. Adamant Hitmonlee would make it a 2OHKO on a non agility, non Jolly Dragonite.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Rhydon: 164-194 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO. While Poliwrath does better at Killing Rhydon, it still OHKOs Alolan Dugtrio.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Kangaskhan: 228-270 (126.6 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Poliwrath Superpower vs. Kangaskhan: 170-204 (94.4 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Slightly better at dealing M-Kanga.

I'd also like to note that as Poliwrath gets more popular and in the off chance, M-Kanga and Melmetal carry Thunder Punch, Hitmonlee is a niche alternative and still has the M-Gyara opportunity. It has slightly better stats than Machamp. It also does a good job checking M-Beedrill with rock slide. Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Mega Beedrill: 132-156 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO. Which would M-Beedrill switch out with U-Turn.

Usuage wise, it hangs around Alolan-Persian and Alolan-Raichu.


Lastly, I'd argue it's niche case of forcing out M-Gyara gives more viability than Kabutops which is in Lower C/C-.
 
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Rag

"aaaaaaaahhhh!"
I've been using Hitmonlee unironically for a while now. It's honestly just a good Pokémon. Hitmonlee High Jump Kick is more potant than a Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb and it's quite bulky on the special side. It can take a Psychic from Mew, for instance. It's a Pokémon that's gonna make the opponents frantically spam Roost with their Mew/Zapdos to be able to switch in reliably, and you can Toxic them on the switch in, 87 speed is also a lot better than you'd think. You're faster than stuff like Nidoking, Venusaur, Eevee, and Gyarados. Being able to outspeed and OHKO Mega Gyarados with SR up gives you a massive advantage in late game against Mega Gyarados teams. But even if you are not up against one, lategame is where it truly shines. Even if the opponent managed to keep their Melmetal completely healthy to deal with your *insert common mega here*, Hitmonlee will soften it enough for even Mega Beedrill to sweep.

It's not a Mew class standalone type of Pokémon that you can slap onto any team and take it from there. But it's a perfectly viable Pokémon. I'd go as far as saying it's B tier.

Also, about Electrode. There's no way it's C+. It outspeeds and KOs Mega Beedrill with Foul Play from 75%, Thunder Waves Mega Gengar and, if healthy enough, Mega Alakazam (even if you aren't you still speed tie), and has a 50% chance to Thunder Wave Aerodactyl. Electrode is one of those Pokémon you can slap onto any team and improve your lategame situation tremendously. It has such an important and unique niche in this metagame that I consider it to be a A rank Pokémon. I recently hit 2nd place on the ladder with a Mega Gengar team, and owe a lot of my consistency to Electrode.
 
I think Hitmonlee deserves one more kick....
View attachment 158841
UR >> C-

Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. Hitmonlee: 109-129 (87.2 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Mega Gyarados: 162-192 (95.2 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Hitmonlee can come in and at least force out M-Gyara, other M-Gyara has a strong chance to be killed. If M-gyara does go out and Hitmonlee isnt killed, it can pull of a Toxic.

Possible Moveset Jolly w/ High Jump Kick, Facade, Earthquake/Rockslide, Toxic.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Melmetal: 126-150 (60 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If Melmetal isnt Double Iron Bash, it will come in and take a hit and be able to do damage to Melmetal.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Muk-Alola: 109-129 (60.5 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO . It's not bad against Alolan Muk.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Snorlax: 270-318 (114.8 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Kills Snorlax.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Chansey: 848-1002 (260.9 - 308.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Kills Chansey.

The one disadvantage it has to Poliwrath as a fighter is it's a 3OHKO on Dragonite with Rockslide using Jolly Nature and it doesnt have Waterfall to take on M-Aero. Adamant Hitmonlee would make it a 2OHKO on a non agility, non Jolly Dragonite.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Rhydon: 164-194 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO. While Poliwrath does better at Killing Rhydon, it still OHKOs Alolan Dugtrio.

Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Kangaskhan: 228-270 (126.6 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Poliwrath Superpower vs. Kangaskhan: 170-204 (94.4 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Slightlu better at dealing M-Kanga.

I'd also like to note that as Poliwrath gets more popular and in the off chance, M-Kanga and Melmetal carry Thunder Punch, Hitmonlee is a niche alternative and still has the M-Gyara opportunity. It has slightly better stats than Machamp. It also does a good job checking M-Beedrill with rock slide. Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Mega Beedrill: 132-156 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO. Which would M-Beedrill switch out with U-Turn.

Usuage wise, it hangs around Alolan-Persian and Alolan-Raichu.


Lastly, I'd argue it's niche case of forcing out M-Gyara gives more viability than Kabutops which is in Lower C/C-.
To preface this, I’m 100% in favor of a Hitmonlee nom. But I don’t think you gave sufficient enough evidence of a niche over Poliwrath, the tier’s premier fighting type.

You also mention stuff like T-Punch Melm, Agilityless DNite and Double Iron Bashless Melm, which are almost never ran.

One very good point in Hitmonlee’s favor is the ability to outspeed and OHKO Mega Gyarados, which is a solid factor and should definitely warrant it C - but personally I’d like to see more discussion on why it’s worth using over Poli.
 
I think Omastar while promising on paper, doesn't meet up to to this meta's standards.

158992

C >> UR

I haven't seen anyone using Omastar and I think it's usuage must have gone way down. As a shell smasher, it's not bulky enough to last long enough to do more than two hits on another Pokemon. As a stealther rocker, it's too slow. If your lucky, you can get a surf on slow Rhydon and kill it in a 1-1 stealth rock matchup. Even with light screen support, your wasting a move on an electric type Pokemon that could better support a stronger sweeper.

While it does make some good strong hits, more than Cloyster, that doesn't make up for it's frailness and lack of speed.

Zapdos, Mew, M-Aero, M-Gyara, Poliwrath, and Alolan Dugtrio can easily take it down while in one hit.


Being so slow and fragile, a Twave or more common Toxic and one other move will destroy it right after Omastar used shell smash. At least in the case of Cloyster, even if it's shell smash is destroyed or dragon tailed out it still has self destruct or ice shard. Ice Shard which does nice chip on Aero and Zam.

It does also get a nice hit on Chansey with Rock Slide even with a Modest nature.

Also, credit goes to Mr.McCooldude who mentioned IF it can get two shell smashes off it will be great and in lower tiers IT's possible, but smart players won't let you.

+1 Omastar Rock Slide vs. Chansey: 184-217 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Example of a game where trying to get 2 Stealth Rocks doesn't work because it's too risky.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-868147903

Another game where just one Stealth Rock really isn't viable:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-868151038

Toxic can easily take down Omastar after it's been chipped a little. Hydro Pump can miss and ruin Omastar's day as well.

And one more:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-868160814

Mod edit: Connected double-post

I think everything on the tier list is about where it should be, but I do take issue with one in particular:

View attachment 158768C+ -> UR

Having a 4x weakness to rocks in a meta without hazard control is bad enough - but Moltres really gets shafted by LGPE. Coverage is relegated to its main STABs, and while that is certainly a solid offensive typing - it leaves it easily walled by Rhydon and Aerodactyl, both of which are very common Pokemon:

Moltres Fire Blast vs. Mega Aerodactyl: 39-46 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Mega Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. Moltres: 240-288 (145.4 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Moltres Fire Blast vs. Rhydon: 69-81 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Modest) Moltres Fire Blast vs. Rhydon: 76-90 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Moltres: 256-304 (155.1 - 184.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

One niche Moltres has is as a fast Will-o-Wisper, but with its very poor defensive typing and much slower speed, I don't think there's much of a reason to justify using it over Mew.

If Mega Charizard Y, a comparable Pokemon, was Unranked for much of the same reason, I don't see why Moltres shouldn't be.

I could write more but I'm too tired, hopefully this got the gist of it!!
I agree that Moltres isn't best suited for OU. It takes alot of moves on other Pokemon's part to help set it up like with a Light Screen from Electrode or Zapdos. To date, in the 1200ish elo on the ladder I sit I haven't had much trouble with a Moltres I team use. However, I can see it being more of a pain in the higher leagues and I have seen more teams using more than one ground or rock types on their team (Rhydon + A-trio, A-trio+Aero, all 3, Kabutops + Aero).

I think cart and showdown UU Moltres is more viable.

Moltres Flamethrower vs. Venomoth: 156-186 (107.5 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Speed tie 123 with Venomoth) with Timid Nature. It also helps on cart against other sleepers as well.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Pre-Contributor
Just going to mention in a response to some previous post, TPunch Melmetal has been seeing more usage lately and is actually a viable option, because people nowadays just throw in their Water-types and not Zapdos.

Anyways, I am coming with my own nom:

Clefable to A-

I think Clefable is pretty underrated as a Stealth Rocker and as a whole and I think A- fits it perfectly. I generally run Clefable with SR/Moonblast/FThrower/Encore with a Bold nature to survive 70% of Mega Bee's Poison Jabs (I know people run Modest but I think Bold is generally better). Clefable's merit comes from the fact it is one of the only SR setters that are not weak to Water or are otherwise beaten by Starmie. Furthermore, Moonblast is incredibly spammable and can fish for Special Attack drops. Flamethrower does significant damage to Melmetal even with Bold nature, which is supposed to be a solid switch-in. Finally, Encore is a really interesting move, as that allows it to somewhat play around SR setters or set up a mon with a weak attack and thus have one of your mons have a free switch-in.

There are people that run CM + SR + Moonblast and Flamethrower, but I don't have experience with this set so if someone wants to add in regarding that, feel free to do so.

Also in response to the Moltres thingy, Zard Y is unranked because it's a garbage Mega that takes up your Mega slot (I think someone mentioned this already). It has U-turn, WoW and Roost, which actually do give it niche. It is still for the C ranks, however, I am not arguing that it's 100% viable.
 

Ezaphs

^-^
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Just going to mention in a response to some previous post, TPunch Melmetal has been seeing more usage lately and is actually a viable option, because people nowadays just throw in their Water-types and not Zapdos.

Anyways, I am coming with my own nom:

Clefable to A-

I think Clefable is pretty underrated as a Stealth Rocker and as a whole and I think A- fits it perfectly. I generally run Clefable with SR/Moonblast/FThrower/Encore with a Bold nature to survive 70% of Mega Bee's Poison Jabs (I know people run Modest but I think Bold is generally better). Clefable's merit comes from the fact it is one of the only SR setters that are not weak to Water or are otherwise beaten by Starmie. Furthermore, Moonblast is incredibly spammable and can fish for Special Attack drops. Flamethrower does significant damage to Melmetal even with Bold nature, which is supposed to be a solid switch-in. Finally, Encore is a really interesting move, as that allows it to somewhat play around SR setters or set up a mon with a weak attack and thus have one of your mons have a free switch-in.

There are people that run CM + SR + Moonblast and Flamethrower, but I don't have experience with this set so if someone wants to add in regarding that, feel free to do so.

Also in response to the Moltres thingy, Zard Y is unranked because it's a garbage Mega that takes up your Mega slot (I think someone mentioned this already). It has U-turn, WoW and Roost, which actually do give it niche. It is still for the C ranks, however, I am not arguing that it's 100% viable.
I agree that Clef's underrated (I'm probably responsible for a decent amount of its usage now lol) but A- seems a bit too high- it's fairly mediocre in most regards. Statwise it doesn't really stand out in any aspect other than its respectable bulk, and its typing while holding a few merits doesn't offer anything huge in the meta. While I'd possibly give it the benefit of the doubt for functioning despite its stats like Poliwrath, it really suffers from competition in its only important role from Mew, who has a better movepool both offensively and defensively, better stats and an arguably better typing as well as healing. As long as Mew is a viable Stealth Rock user I can't see Clefable's niche bringing it above B+, and I'd honestly consider Mew the single most reliable Stealth Rock user.
I'd personally always run the Calm Mind set, but it generally uses Fire Blast- this notably lets it OHKO Melmetal at +1 after minimal damage. I've never really seen Encore get things done and I've seen Calm Mind be fairly threatening sometimes so I just see it as the better choice.

You're entirely right about Zard Y though!

Speaking of megas that are currently rated really poorly, I'd like to give the spotlight to the other Bug mega that's been overshadowed by the Bee and its insane firepower. Not gonna propose a new ranking because it has some insane strengths and major flaws that make it hard to place, at least now.

Okay, let's start off with strengths. The most notable one is, well, its STRENGTH. Not only is it the single strongest physical attacker in the metagame tied with Mega Gyarados, it has Swords Dance. For reference, imagine Mega Gyarados hitting twice as hard. Sounds pretty scary right? It's even scarier when you factor in Mega Pinsir's solid 105 Speed tier, which lets it outspeed all but about 8 common Pokémon and most notably Mew (which it almost OHKOs without boosts). After a boost, Mega Pinsir straight up OHKOs almost anything, especially if those things are not physically bulky and don't resist its STAB while also not being weak to SlideQuake.
+2 Mega Pinsir Rock Slide vs. Zapdos: 188-222 (113.9 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. Rhydon: 190-224 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. Melmetal: 162-192 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. Mega Venusaur: 111-132 (71.6 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can find setup opportunities off its raw strength forcing switches or by utilising the defensive benefits of potentially being able to gain the Flying type (watch people go for Ice Punch on your regular Pinsir as you set up and win, it's fun).

Now for the flaws. Firstly, while Mega Pinsir absolutely devours more defensive or bulky teams that have been gaining popularity at higher level play lately, it can really struggle to find setup opportunities or make much headway versus offense with Pokémon such as Mega Alakazam or Mega Aerodactyl (its best answer bar none). As these teams are commonplace on the ladder, Mega Pinsir is likely one of those 'mons that will find more success in tournaments than standard ladder matches. It also really wishes it could have a Flying type attack, as without it Mega Pinsir ironically finds itself struggling with foes such as Mega Venusaur or Poliwrath without prior damage. Due to it pretty much being a fact that Stealth Rock will be on your side of the field and it gains a 4x weakness to those upon Mega Evolving, you're pretty much commited to go all in right there and then once you've gone Mega, unlike Beedrill which can at least pivot once or twice. Finally, its special bulk means it can't afford to set up versus potential special threats.

tldr: Mega Pinsir kills things dead better than literally anything else, but its mileage varies depending on matchup.
 


I'm doing it. I'm making a Jolteon post!

UR > C ( - ?)

Jolteon is pretty underrated in this meta due to being compared with Zapdos. He is, however, one of the fastest mons in the meta (speed ties with m-gengar and regular aero). He has a strong tbolt, he outspeeds everything he needs to threaten (starmie), and he has a coverage move that can reliably 3HKO the things that would switch in on him. He has dual screens. He has access to yawn+protect. He has enough SpD to take a psychic from m-zam after rocks and fire off a twave, crippling it.

He also has the honor of being the only electric type that both invites in a ground type and actually hurts them (you could also make the case for Electabuzz) - no good player brings a ground type into pika-s. In many cases, Jolteon coming in is seen as a free swap to a Rhydon or Dugtrio-Alola, who will take the opportunity to try and set up Stealth rocks. Unfortunately, that means they took a shadow ball coming in, a shadow ball on the rocks, and a shadow ball to finish. Even if they choose to throw off an EQ, he'll have taken them into KO range from anything faster - basically resulting in a situation where they have to choose between getting rocks up or losing their tbolt pivot.

He is not without downsides, though. He only has two truly effective attacks, meaning he's pretty much shut down by Chansey, Snorlax or Kang (the latter two carry EQ, the former just eats all his hits). He's very frail, so reflect support is extremely needed. He's also very difficult to bring in - even a scald from Starmie takes about 40% off his bar.

I can drop replays of him putting in work, if necessary.

Edit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-864527989

Just because it was such a perfect example of the Jolteon play. He put my opponent into a position where he either lost rocks or lost his rocker for rocks. That is such incredible value for m-bee, something very little else can consistently provide.
 
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Also in response to the Moltres thingy, Zard Y is unranked because it's a garbage Mega that takes up your Mega slot (I think someone mentioned this already). It has U-turn, WoW and Roost, which actually do give it niche. It is still for the C ranks, however, I am not arguing that it's 100% viable.
Yup, this was mentioned earlier - I forgot to note that in my OP.
 
I'd also like to nominate Primeape for C, maybe C-. I tried to get footage of good games with Hitmonlee and wasn't able to find any. Howver, I just made this account and Primeape has done ok.


View attachment 162701
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-868629417

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-868748442

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-868750212

The team so far: https://pokepast.es/99ffa3ea9a10f1b3

Primeape Low Kick (100 BP) vs. Rhydon: 102-122 (56.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primeape Low Kick (100 BP) vs. Mega Kangaskhan: 116-140 (64.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primeape Low Kick (120 BP) vs. Snorlax: 200-236 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Primeape Earthquake vs. Eevee: 68-80 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primeape Low Kick (120 BP) vs. Melmetal: 104-126 (49.5 - 60%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Primeape Low Kick (120 BP) vs. Mega Gyarados: 134-158 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, chance to be dead with rocks or if chipped

Primeape Ice Punch vs. Aerodactyl: 84-100 (54.1 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It safely can do some damage on Mew and run away.

Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Primeape: 59-70 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Rhydon Earthquake vs. Primeape: 118-139 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. Primeape: 152-182 (108.5 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It can take damage from regular Aero and Rhydon which is different from Hitmonlee. Unfortunately Melmetal will kill it. However, unlike Poli it can stay in on Zapdos and not die. Not like you'd want to stay in on a Zapdos because that Zapdos might have Twave or Drill Peck which wrecks Primeape. Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Primeape: 82-97 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also unlike Poli, it outspeeds M-Gyara. Being able to take a hit and staying in to finish it, if M-Gyara doesnt switch out.

It also outspeeds non agility Speed boosted Dragonite, but however dies from Outrage unlike Poliwrath which can take an Outrage.

Ezaphs Yoshi Can we get an update when the council is going to look at Jolteon and some of the other posts made? Clefable, Hitmonlee, Moltres, Jolteon, Omastar, etc...
I’m not a council member so you’re going to have to take this with a grain of salt but based on my knowledge of other VRs for other tiers, council votes are made privately before they share which noms they did / didn’t do in the next VR update.
 

Ezaphs

^-^
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
The council have voted and new VR changes are here! Not too many, but there's a new face on the VR as well as a new S rank.

Rises
Mega Gengar A+ -> S
Rhydon A- -> A
Clefable B- -> B
Electrode C+ -> B-
Mega Pinsir C- -> B-
Rapidash UR -> C+

Drops
Alakazam-Mega A -> A-
Moltres C+ -> C-
Alakazam B- -> UR



Moltres- While we've dropped Moltres, we haven't unranked it- Moltres' respectable stats, high power and unique selling points for a Fire type in Roost and U-Turn make it at least slightly viable despite its drawbacks.
Hitmonlee- This is definitely a Pokémon that has a lot of potential, but we've seen little proof of it functioning effectively at high level play. Until this changes we can't confidently place Hitmonlee on the VR.
Omastar- The council generally disagrees with unranking Omastar. Its effectiveness as a Stealth Rock user is entirely irrelevant as it's ranked for the role it's actually good at, being Shell Smash. Despite what the nomination suggests, there aren't many stronger options for a Screens sweeper due to Omastar's raw strength and high powered STAB. Several Pokémon listed as answers are anything but after a Shell Smash, and counterplay listed such as Dragon Tail isn't meta relevant.
Clefable- While Clefable did in fact rise from B- to B, most of the council don't see it as worthy of A-. The nomination doesn't consider the intense competition Clefable recieves from Stealth Rock Mew, which is comparable or better in almost every regard other than its worse matchup versus Mega Gyarados.
Jolteon- Another nomination with potential, but not enough proof of effectiveness in higher level play. Jolteon on paper struggles to set itself apart from other Electric types that provide more utility such as Electrode, or have stronger coverage like Alolan Raichu.

As always, feel free to make more nominations! Providing a few replays of matches versus opponents who know what they're doing that show off the mon is very useful, especially if your nominee is unranked or you want to propose that it should be.

Also if you want to get some insight on why some of the other larger changes happened, here's my thoughts on them!
Mega Gengar- Gengar is an extremely threatening force in the LGPE OU metagame due to its amazing movepool and stats. The most common set, which utilises Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt and WIll-O Wisp or Substitute has almost no safe switchins, and those that are safe can only come in one or two times. It is extremely effective at helping take down both other S ranked Pokémon and has a great amount of positive matchups outside of those. There is no such thing as a matchup where Gengar won't get anything done, and it will usually do a whole lot. Overall a great pick.
Mega Pinsir- Refer to my previous post on this thread, in which I go into detail about this beast!
Rapidash- Rapidash has some key advantages over other Fire types in the meta, those being its Speed and coverage. Rapidash is the fastest Fire type in the metagame and the only one to reliably outrun base 100s, which is pretty decent in itself. Its coverage options in Megahorn and Drill Run provide it with strong options versus two otherwise large obstacles, those being Mew and Rock types. The rest of its movepool can be filled out nicely with Flare Blitz and a choice of Fire Blast or Will-O-Wisp depending on what seems most useful. Despite its advantages, it does have some notable issues in its only decent Attack and mediocre defenses that hold it back, but it still performs more than well enough to warrant a ranking.
Alakazam-Mega- People know how to play versus it now, and everyone has an answer to it as its answers overlap with Mega Gengar's best responses. It's still strong and fast but it won't put in as much work as other options reliably, and struggles with competition from Mega Gengar which has coverage for things that can deal with its STAB.
Alakazam- It's not fast enough or strong enough in regular form to ever really get much done, and can be reliably dealt with. There's never really much reason to not Mega Evolve making the base form almost entirely redundant.
 
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After this ranking update, these rankings look a lot more in line with what my personal ideal for the rankings are based on the current metagame, but I still have a few changes to suggest.

View attachment 154968A+>A-
I understand that Mega Alakazam just dropped in the most recent update, but it didn't drop nearly enough. Mega Alakazam is significantly worse than Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Gyarados which are the "big 3" of the best megas in the tier in my eyes. It fits much better in A- with Bee, a pretty solid mega that can clean a lot of teams, but can't quite break through the ceiling of A+ due to clearly being worse than everything comparable to it in that rank. I just find Mega Gengar to be a lot more effective when the best mon in the tier is Melmetal as well its increased access to coverage and utility options to dispatch of would be counters, such as Disable and Thunder(bolt). This isn't to say that Mega Alakazam is complete garbage, it's just not effective enough nor as easy to use as the rest of the mons currently occupying A+ rank.

View attachment 154970A->B+ or B-
Eevee is just...baddy bad. I get that being the only cleric in the tier is cool and all, but it's too frail to actually be effective, lacks reliable recovery beyond Sappy Seed, and is just generally super underwhelming. I find teamslots in this tier to be even more important than role compression-centric metas like ORAS OU and SM OU and a lot of games it ends up just sitting there and not really doing anything of note. I get that Swirl can be nice cause it lets u run stuff like rest stak and gives insurance against Mew, and that's the only reason why I'm saying it should be ranked in the first place, it's just not worth using aside from its sole role of being a cleric and is damn useless more often than not.

View attachment 154990B+>A-
On a more positive note, I believe that Dragonite should rise to A- rank. It's one of the best cleaners in the entire tier and arguably the best late-game sweeper with Agility, especially considering how easy it is to chip everything with perma-rocks. You can very easily set up and blast past weakened teams with Agility, as Staka and Clef are really the only 2 commonly used dragon resists in this tier and Dragonite's respectable bulk coupled with its access to roost and strong attacking prowess making it a nightmare to revenge kill. I've seen this thing blow past numerous teams and really think it should be moved up to A-, where it fits in a lot better. I would personally bump it all the way up to A+ with how effective I've found its cleaner set to be, but I understand not wanting to do a multiple rank rise right after scooting it up to B+

I've got a couple more things in mind, but these three noms are the main ones I wanted to focus on here. I hope you guys found this post insightful and I look forward to seeing further development of the metagame!
After this ranking update, these rankings look a lot more in line with what my personal ideal for the rankings are based on the current metagame, but I still have a few changes to suggest.

View attachment 154968A+>A-
I understand that Mega Alakazam just dropped in the most recent update, but it didn't drop nearly enough. Mega Alakazam is significantly worse than Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Gyarados which are the "big 3" of the best megas in the tier in my eyes. It fits much better in A- with Bee, a pretty solid mega that can clean a lot of teams, but can't quite break through the ceiling of A+ due to clearly being worse than everything comparable to it in that rank. I just find Mega Gengar to be a lot more effective when the best mon in the tier is Melmetal as well its increased access to coverage and utility options to dispatch of would be counters, such as Disable and Thunder(bolt). This isn't to say that Mega Alakazam is complete garbage, it's just not effective enough nor as easy to use as the rest of the mons currently occupying A+ rank.

View attachment 154970A->B+ or B-
Eevee is just...baddy bad. I get that being the only cleric in the tier is cool and all, but it's too frail to actually be effective, lacks reliable recovery beyond Sappy Seed, and is just generally super underwhelming. I find teamslots in this tier to be even more important than role compression-centric metas like ORAS OU and SM OU and a lot of games it ends up just sitting there and not really doing anything of note. I get that Swirl can be nice cause it lets u run stuff like rest stak and gives insurance against Mew, and that's the only reason why I'm saying it should be ranked in the first place, it's just not worth using aside from its sole role of being a cleric and is damn useless more often than not.

View attachment 154990B+>A-
On a more positive note, I believe that Dragonite should rise to A- rank. It's one of the best cleaners in the entire tier and arguably the best late-game sweeper with Agility, especially considering how easy it is to chip everything with perma-rocks. You can very easily set up and blast past weakened teams with Agility, as Staka and Clef are really the only 2 commonly used dragon resists in this tier and Dragonite's respectable bulk coupled with its access to roost and strong attacking prowess making it a nightmare to revenge kill. I've seen this thing blow past numerous teams and really think it should be moved up to A-, where it fits in a lot better. I would personally bump it all the way up to A+ with how effective I've found its cleaner set to be, but I understand not wanting to do a multiple rank rise right after scooting it up to B+

I've got a couple more things in mind, but these three noms are the main ones I wanted to focus on here. I hope you guys found this post insightful and I look forward to seeing further development of the metagame!
165116
D->C-
I know that Alolan Marowak isn's as good as Gengar, but because of the fact that it is one out of only two fully evolved Ghost-type, I think it should be a little bit more viable than something like Farfetch'd. For a sample moveset, try using Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Bonemerang, Brick Break and Thunder Punch/Will O Wisp
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Pre-Contributor
View attachment 165116
D->C-
I know that Alolan Marowak isn's as good as Gengar, but because of the fact that it is one out of only two fully evolved Ghost-type, I think it should be a little bit more viable than something like Farfetch'd. For a sample moveset, try using Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Bonemerang, Brick Break and Thunder Punch/Will O Wisp
Just because it's one of the only fully evolved Ghosts is not a valid argument for a mon to rise. Pokemon are ranked based on viability and how they perform in the current metagame. Even if it was the only Ghost-type Pokemon, but was totally useless, it wouldn't and shouldn't get ranked.

For a rise to happen, you may want to include arguments about why Marowak is on the same level of efficiency as the other C- Pokemon, which can include calculations, replays or anything that can convice people about your nomination.
 
I know that Alolan Marowak isn's as good as Gengar, but because of the fact that it is one out of only two fully evolved Ghost-type, I think it should be a little bit more viable than something like Farfetch'd.
I'm going to have to disagree. At most the Ghost typing gives immunity to Normal-type moves, at worst it just lets M-Gengar OHKO Marowak-Alola (Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. Marowak-Alola: 170-204 (125.9 - 151.1%)), when Marowak-Alola can't even OHKO on the switch (Marowak-Alola Earthquake vs. Mega Gengar: 84-100 (62.2 - 74%)). The Ghost typing does not add anything to its offensive capabilities, due to the lack of physical Ghost-type moves (Shadow Bone isn't here). Marowak-Alola's best (and only) Ghost-type move would be Shadow Ball, a Special move. Marowak-Alola has a base stat of 50 for Special Attack. As such, it would be best to not even use Shadow Ball, as Flare Blitz's STAB does better anyways.
For a sample moveset, try using Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Bonemerang, Brick Break and Thunder Punch/Will O Wisp
Ngl with Marowak-Alola's mediocre speed, odd typing, and weakness to Stealth Rock you are going to be KO'd pretty quickly. I'd drop Fire Punch as an option as you aren't going to survive long, and Bonemerang is just EQ with 90% accuracy. Again, you will be KO'd pretty quickly, so this isn't exactly a good thing. Brick Break hits... Rhydon? Which will OHKO you with EQ anyways... (Rhydon Earthquake vs. Marowak-Alola: 146-174 (108.1 - 128.8%)). Will-O-Wisp might be an okay option for burning... although you will be KO'd quickly so one miss (assuming you didn't get KO'd in the first place) and Marowak-Alola is pretty much sacked. Thunder Punch hits Water-types, but you will be outsped and OHKO'd after Stealth Rock by Starmie (Starmie Scald vs. Marowak-Alola: 110-132 (81.4 - 97.7%)), and it will be a 2HKO after Stealth Rock for Poliwrath (Poliwhirl Waterfall vs. Marowak-Alola: 66-80 (48.8 - 59.2%)). The only thing Marowak-Alola gets that Arcanine doesn't is Sword Dance, and Marowak-Alola can't even utilize it without giving the opponent 2 free moves to hit Marowak-Alola (remember, 45 Base Speed), so it's pretty much useless.

tl;dr Marowak-Alola shouldn't be C- simply because Arcanine does everything it does 10x better.
 
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Rag

"aaaaaaaahhhh!"
As one of the higher level players in this metagame that actually has experience using Hitmonlee, I felt obligated to provide to share some thoughts on why I think he's being criminally underrated.

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Substitute
- Disable

Hitmonlee
Ability: Limber
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Facade
- Bulk Up
- Rock Slide

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Teleport
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic

Sandslash-Alola
Ability: Snow Cloak
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide
- Taunt

Melmetal
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
Careful Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch

This is a M-Gengar team, which is a really good Mega to pair up with Hitmonlee. Reason being A-Muk is your primary target to get your Hitmonlee set up on, and they are very likely to conserve it due to M-Gengar being on the team, meaning a free Bulk Up. Mew tends to deal with it fairly well, hence regular Alakazam whose job is to TWave Mew, Encore Wisp/Psychic, and Teleport out, often into Hitmonlee as A-Muk/Snorlax/Melmetal are common switch-ins. It's also there in case Mew is brought out vs Hitmonlee and I wasn't able to set up.

Even if Hitmonlee doesn't get to set up directly, it provides a number of passive benefits to the team. For starters, it usually means the opponent will prioritize saving perhaps their Mew or Starmie into the lategame rather than, say, a Rhydon who can tank a hit from Gengar and KO in return. Often I end up sacrificing my Hitmonlee to a Mew Psychic, Disable that with Gengar, put up a Substitute and win from there. Hitmonlee is also quite potent unboosted, dealing 66.6 - 80% to Melmetal who is a common last stand Pokémon due to its ability to take at least 3 hits from most of the meta. From that range, Gengar or A-Sandslash wins comfortably.

After a Bulk Up, its matchup spread becomes something equal to the best Megas. You'll just need to accept that you'll lose a Pokémon or two trying to get rid of this thing, as well as the momentum afterwards.

Jolly M-Aerodactyl
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Mega Aerodactyl: 160-190 (103.2 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Aerodactyl Wing Attack vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 98-116 (78.4 - 92.8%)
Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 54-64 (43.2 - 51.2%)

Timid Alakazam
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Alakazam: 130-153 (100 - 117.6%)
Alakazam Psychic vs. Hitmonlee: 122-146 (97.6 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Timid M-Alakazam
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Mega Alakazam: 100-118 (76.9 - 90.7%)
Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. Hitmonlee: 152-182 (121.6 - 145.6%)

Jolly A-Dugtrio
Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 63-75 (50.4 - 60%)

Bold Clefable
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Clefable: 83-98 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
Clefable Moonblast vs. Hitmonlee: 98-116 (78.4 - 92.8%)

Jolly M-Beedrill
Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 70-84 (56 - 67.2%)
+1 Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Mega Beedrill: 218-258 (155.7 - 184.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Timid M-Gengar
Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. Hitmonlee: 75-88 (60 - 70.4%)
+1 Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Mega Gengar: 66-78 (48.8 - 57.7%)
Alternatively,
(Unboosted) Hitmonlee Earthquake vs. Mega Gengar: 116-138 (85.9 - 102.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Adamant Melmetal
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Melmetal: 206-246 (98 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 114-134 (91.2 - 107.2%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO

Timid Mew
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Mew: 71-84 (40.5 - 48%)
+1 Hitmonlee Facade (140 BP) vs. Mew: 102-120 (58.2 - 68.5%)
Mew Psychic vs. Hitmonlee: 96-114 (76.8 - 91.2%)

Jolly Nidoking
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Nidoking: 88-104 (56.4 - 66.6%)
Nidoking Earthquake vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 64-76 (51.2 - 60.8%)

Impish Nidoqueen
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Nidoqueen: 72-85 (43.6 - 51.5%)
+2 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Nidoqueen: 96-114 (58.1 - 69%)
Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 58-70 (46.4 - 56%)
Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. +2 Hitmonlee: 43-52 (34.4 - 41.6%)

Impish Poliwrath
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Poliwrath: 135-160 (81.8 - 96.9%)
+2 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Poliwrath: 180-213 (109 - 129%)
Poliwrath Waterfall vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 49-58 (39.2 - 46.4%)
Poliwrath Superpower vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 72-85 (57.6 - 68%)
Poliwrath Superpower vs. +2 Hitmonlee: 54-64 (43.2 - 51.2%)

Bold Starmie
+1 Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Starmie: 73-87 (54 - 64.4%)
+1 Hitmonlee Facade (140 BP) vs. Starmie: 106-125 (78.5 - 92.5%)
Starmie Scald vs. Hitmonlee: 42-51 (33.6 - 40.8%)
Starmie Psychic vs. Hitmonlee: 96-114 (76.8 - 91.2%)

Timid Zapdos
+1 Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Zapdos: 124-148 (75.1 - 89.6%)
Zapdos Drill Peck vs. +1 Hitmonlee: 84-98 (67.2 - 78.4%)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Hitmonlee: 58-69 (46.4 - 55.2%)

tl;dr: Only thing faster that OHKOs is Alakazam. It's definitely advised to scout for Psychic on Mew and Starmie before you set up. Alternatively you can get them Paralyzed or even Poisoned first. Nidoking is also an issue for this set specifically but it's generally ill-advised to send in a Nidoking vs Hitmonlee as he loses to Jolly. Nidoqueen isn't much of an issue if it's sent out early since you get to Bulk Up twice, and if it's sent out later it doesn't really have the best damage output to effectively revenge kill. Venusaur is a bit of an issue but that M-Gengar's best OU matchup.

It's not Poliwrath and shouldn't be compared to it. Its strong points are its absurdely strong offense and wallbreaking capabilities,. I tend to prioritize saving it after getting a kill as well due to tremendous pressure it brings to the lategame. It's like a solid B+ or even A- in a properly built team but will feel like a B- or C+ if you just try it without giving any thought to how you use it. Definitely shouldn't be unranked either way, though.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
VR Update (March 24th)

Another VR update coming through! This one is slightly different however as we had debated the topic of creating either an S+ or S- rank. This is due to the fact that some of us believe that Melmetal is currently the best pokemon in the metagame and that it eclipses the other two S ranks currently (being Mew and Mega Gengar). Therefore we also voted on that potential change as well as some other nominations we had internallyt and in the thread!.

Voting Spread

Here are the results:
Code:
Creation of S-: Yes
Mega Gengar: S -> S-
Dragonite: A -> A+
Alolan Muk: A -> A+
Snorlax: A- -> A
Gengar: B+ -> B
Alolan Sandslash: C+ -> B-
Golem: C+ -> C-
Ninetales: C+ -> C-
Exeggutor: C+ -> C-
Hitmonlee: UR -> C-
A lot of shifts! Here are some explanations:

Dragonite: Dragonite is the most dangerous late game cleaner in the tier. Once checks such as Melmetal and Mew are weakened down, there is not much that can handle a +2 Speed Dragonite from completely wrecking the opposing team. Thankfully, a susceptibility to SR and weakness to coverage moves such as Dazzling Gleam and Ice Beam / Ice Punch keep it at bay, but its bulk offers it plentiful oppurtunities to sweep and clean which is why it has risen.

Alolan Muk: Being able to check dangerous special threats such as Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam, and Mew is a godsend for many teams and is why Alolan Muk is so splashable. Coverage in Crunch + Fire Blast + Mega Drain also means it can damage a significant amount of switchins and can be generally annoying to deal with. A weakness to Ground-type moves does hurt it, but Alolan Muk's splashability is just to apparent to ignore a rise.

Snorlax: Similarly to Alolan Muk, Snorlax is a great special blanket check that can also output significant amounts of damage and can be hard to break down. A lack of weaknesses also helps it not succumb to coverage moves alongside movepool options such as Surf and Fire Blast enabling Snorlax to weaken common switchins such as Rhydon and Melmetal respectively.

Alolan Sandslash: Being the only other viable Steel-type in the metagame, Alolan Sandlash does offer some niche as an SR setter that can check Psychic types such as Mega Alakazam while also abusing a STAB boosted Ice Shard to check threats such as Dragonite, Zapdos, and Mega Aerodactyl. Coverage in Earthquake also helps it chip down Melmetal over time which is also very helpful, although its abundance of weaknesses and lack of recovery hurts in in the longrun.

Mega Gengar: While Mega Gengar is still one of the deadliest threats in the metagame and arguably the best mega evolution option, checks such as Alolan Muk and Snorlax are quite abundant in the current metagame which can often force it to lose some momentum either crippling the aforementioned threats with Will-O-Wisp or setup a Substitute. It still is quite the flexible threat that has a variety of set options, but we feel it does not compare to the same level of influence that Melmetal and Mew do currently.

Gengar: Regular Gengar faces many of the same issues that its Mega forme confronts but also is burdens with much a much weaker damage output and a Speed tier that does not opt it the opportunity to speed-tie with threats such as Aerodactyl or outspeed threats such as Alakazam.

Golem: Golem faces too much competition from Rhydon to be considered viable. While Explosion is a nice option to deal significant damage to switchins such as Poliwrath and Mew, Rhydons coverage in Megahorn and general better physical bulk offers it much more flexibility in terms of attacking and coming in.


Some of my own discussion points I have is maybe a drop of Eevee-S, Pikachu-S, and a potential rise of Starmie. Keep up the discussion!
 

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