Resource LGPE OverUsed Viability Rankings

[juoean]

chansey - i think B- is def (way) too low.
• first chansey can function well on offensive teams as well as (the rare) defensive ones due to teleport. often teleport doesnt rly require prediction, u bring chansey in to a special attacker it walls (obv esp m-gengar) and then teleport out to st that cant switch in to that threat but can check in if brought in with teleport. i think the most general example of a poke that rly appreciates this is electrode but in a tier where there are mostly soft checks that can only switch into threats a few times almost any team benefits from chanseys teleport. and ofc teleport can also be used to bring in a dangerous offensive threat.
• with the exception of mew, in lgpe you can mostly tell from team preview what threats are special / walled by chansey, so it can help w scouting somewhat tho it does risk a free substitute (if it cant break that poke’s subs) so the team needs a plan for that. but scouting is rly hard in this tier generally bc evthg is so frail plus permanent status so in comparison chansey is an effective scout.
• chansey has significant set diversity due to the status moves it can run: toxic, twave, and sing. sing helps esp to deter melmetal and rhydon switchins since they are slower so chansey gets two chances to land sleep and also synergizes well with teleport (since the slept poke has to switch out while u teleport to a counter, or alternatively if it stays in u get a free turn for your offensive switchin of choice.) toxic and twave obv have very different targets so until the status move is revealed (which may not be til mid/late since teleport is ‘spammable’) there actually rly arent free switchins. melmetal prob cares least abt either toxic (immune) or twave, but it hates sing. it also has different attacks it can use (to not be complete taunt bait) with each status, eg flamethrower paired with toxic for melmetal and gengar, ice beam with twave for grounds and zapdos plus the freeze chance, theres also tri attack and stoss as more ‘general’ options, so wrt substitute users they dont always know til later whether chansey can break their subs or not. (twave together with sing or toxic with zero attacks is maybe plausible since the taunt user risks paralysis on the switch in, but i think one attack is usually better / more consistent.)
• chanseys one **major** issue is susceptibility to taunt, and to a lesser extent substitute. taunt users switching in isnt a big issue bc teleport is (usually) the most spammable move anyway, but if u switch in to an unexpected taunt user or if the taunt user comes in on a double switch.
• its assets of a great special tank that maintains momentum and can bring in offensive threats with teleport combined with access to recovery (which is hard to use early game but if physical threats have been weakened mid-late) are unparalleled and also make it prob the closest there is to a consistent response to m-gar. it is fairly splashable, as it fits on both (rare) defensive teams as a wall, and on most offensive teams which use the free pivot, tho it pairs extremely well with electrode (thunderbolt twave foul play and reflect) but i dont think electrode is a mandatory teammate.
i think somewhere in A rank, fulfills most of the positive characteristics and has one major issue.
(note i didnt mention stealth rock bc i j dont see how chansey can have room for it, recovery, teleport, status are all indispensible)

 

[Eve]

chansey - i think B- is def (way) too low.
• first chansey can function well on offensive teams as well as (the rare) defensive ones due to teleport. often teleport doesnt rly require prediction, u bring chansey in to a special attacker it walls (obv esp m-gengar) and then teleport out to st that cant switch in to that threat but can check in if brought in with teleport. i think the most general example of a poke that rly appreciates this is electrode but in a tier where there are mostly soft checks that can only switch into threats a few times almost any team benefits from chanseys teleport. and ofc teleport can also be used to bring in a dangerous offensive threat.
• with the exception of mew, in lgpe you can mostly tell from team preview what threats are special / walled by chansey, so it can help w scouting somewhat tho it does risk a free substitute (if it cant break that poke’s subs) so the team needs a plan for that. but scouting is rly hard in this tier generally bc evthg is so frail plus permanent status so in comparison chansey is an effective scout.
• chansey has significant set diversity due to the status moves it can run: toxic, twave, and sing. sing helps esp to deter melmetal and rhydon switchins since they are slower so chansey gets two chances to land sleep and also synergizes well with teleport (since the slept poke has to switch out while u teleport to a counter, or alternatively if it stays in u get a free turn for your offensive switchin of choice.) toxic and twave obv have very different targets so until the status move is revealed (which may not be til mid/late since teleport is ‘spammable’) there actually rly arent free switchins. melmetal prob cares least abt either toxic (immune) or twave, but it hates sing. it also has different attacks it can use (to not be complete taunt bait) with each status, eg flamethrower paired with toxic for melmetal and gengar, ice beam with twave for grounds and zapdos plus the freeze chance, theres also tri attack and stoss as more ‘general’ options, so wrt substitute users they dont always know til later whether chansey can break their subs or not. (twave together with sing or toxic with zero attacks is maybe plausible since the taunt user risks paralysis on the switch in, but i think one attack is usually better / more consistent.)
• chanseys one **major** issue is susceptibility to taunt, and to a lesser extent substitute. taunt users switching in isnt a big issue bc teleport is (usually) the most spammable move anyway, but if u switch in to an unexpected taunt user or if the taunt user comes in on a double switch.
• its assets of a great special tank that maintains momentum and can bring in offensive threats with teleport combined with access to recovery (which is hard to use early game but if physical threats have been weakened mid-late) are unparalleled and also make it prob the closest there is to a consistent response to m-gar. it is fairly splashable, as it fits on both (rare) defensive teams as a wall, and on most offensive teams which use the free pivot, tho it pairs extremely well with electrode (thunderbolt twave foul play and reflect) but i dont think electrode is a mandatory teammate.
i think somewhere in A rank, fulfills most of the positive characteristics and has one major issue.
(note i didnt mention stealth rock bc i j dont see how chansey can have room for it, recovery, teleport, status are all indispensible)

The A Ranks are definitely too high for Chansey at the moment. The mon has some great strengths, namely checking specific major threats reliably, but in order to do that it often can't afford the moveslot diversity you mention- Sing takes a valuable slot away from a status that reliably hinders Mega Zam and Gengar and therefore isn't really a serious consideration. Almost all Chansey at high level play run Thunder Wave at the moment because it covers both of them fairly reliably. Calling Taunt Chansey's biggest issue is also really odd, as it also has the issue of not actually being able to come in safely on many Pokemon due to its abysmal physical Defense, which leaves it significantly dented by even U-Turns from common choices like Mew and Zapdos which can then almost always bring in something that threatens you heavily.

You mention Teleport as a big selling point, but you have to be careful using it versus Mega Gengar as unless you have Psychic they are free to set up a Substitute versus Chansey and sit there.

Chansey can't really afford attack diversity as unless it runs Psychic, the best Mega in the format who is also Chansey's most relevant target can give it serious issues with Substitute due to Chansey being insanely weak. Chansey only ever really has one slot to spare for innovation and that's the slot where Teleport goes. Hayburner's been trying out Seismic Toss there to avoid being complete a offensive deadweight versus most of the meta and that seems like one of the better uses other than maybe Toxic.

Once again, Chansey has strengths, but it really can't afford the massive set diversity you talk about without failing to deal with the things people run it for, and some of the options you listed such as Sing are almost never serious considerations. Its role is as a Special wall with longevity but much more significant weak spots than its competitors (Alolan Muk and Snorlax). The amount of team support it requires to get around those weak spots, in my opinion, easily keeps it in B.

 

[juoean]

youve placed a lot of limitations that idt need to be there at all.
• mgar can set up a substitute but it doesnt have any (other) set up move and it cannot hit chansey well at all so if chansey can only 2hko the sub with eg flamethrower or ice beam thats not exactly a big problem. further not all mgar run sub and seeing substitute provides valuable set information, and once substitute is revealed chansey gets to scout a third mgar move since it already has a sub and immune to shadow ball. if mgar shows sludge bomb then it probably doesnt have wisp so a secondary check (esp a-muk but m-gyara should be ok and also melmetal bc of double iron bash koing through sub) can be teleported in even with a sub up. if mgar doesnt have sludge bomb chansey should be able to 1v1 fine even if it cant ohko subs. (substitute / mega drain might be an issue? i havent done calcs to see hm it recovers in two turns but even then its using all its mega drain pp).
no mgar check rly deals well with 100% of its sets, eg lax can rly only switch into sludge bomb once, i dont think needing a secondary check for sub/sludge bomb sets makes a chansey set unviable.
also once gar sets a substitute chansey can use softboiled freely (ie w o fearing a switchin on the softboiled) so its okay if eg gar sets up a sub on the teleport and then chansey has to come right back in, bc its bulk is enough to take the ‘extra’ hit and then recover it off.
-i think i can agree that mgar makes using tri attack or stoss as the single attack unviable at least in the vast majority of cases.

• i dont agree about twave as the only status option at all. mzam does not have room for substitute unless maybe if monoattacking (which u have your secondary gengar check muk/gyara for anyway), and yes twave is the best status for zam but toxic isnt bad and i think teleport is completely adequate to deal with mzam bc there are so many pokemon in the tier that 1v1 it if they dont have to switch in on an attack. toxic means no status for mgar but sub is the main issue there anyway and for non substitute mgar sets (which is where the status move rly matters) if you do have electrode teleporting to electrode is fine. or to m-bee or m-aero on those teams.
i dont understand what u are saying about sing, is it unreliable bc of the accuracy or bc it can only be used (successfully) once like your concern is sleeping the ‘wrong’ poke. accuracy is manaageable bc of how specially bulky chansey is it can afford a miss and yeah u cant reliably sleep the mgar or mzam or w e but outside of maybe the rock setter theres no poke that the opponent doesnt care about being slept, the point of sing is not to check things defensively it is to cripple something (doesnt have to be the special attacker) and to gain offensive momentum. yeah there are disadvantages like once youve used sing late game and maybe your secondary mzam checks are worn down or electrode has tried to pivot in too many times so its weak or gone and mgars still not paralyzed or etc etc but those are part of how u play in the early game that u keep in mind if u are running sing, that a back up gar/zam check needs to stay healthy ish. sing brings other major advantages and in particular that melmetal doesnt switch in for free even if u didnt click teleport.
psychic / twave sounds horrible i mean yes it covers mgar almost completely but it gives a huge number of free switchins esp to melmetal and means that chansey has to click teleport almost every turn against a m-gyara team bc mgyara will otherwise come in every single time and get a free attack (barring full paralysis).
u are consistently talking about chansey as a wall rather than a pivot which is not how it is effective except maybe on an extremely defensive team.
• i dont understand the u turn point at all, u turn is only rly an issue if chansey switches into the u turn user (or if it didnt teleport / clicked the wrong move the turn after i guess?) is that what u are referring to. why is chansey switching into zapdos ever when it always carrys toxic plus sometimes has drill peck. or do u mean zapdos switching into a twave chasney, but thats why it should be running ice beam as the attacking move with twave to threaten grounds and zapdos switchins. mew is an issue as i stated at the beginning bc of how many sets it has so it is the one potential special attacker chansey shouldnt rly switch into until the set is scouted. the only mew set chansey should be switching into is nasty plot since calm mind sets tend to have taunt and chansey doesnt rly do well vs any support set due to one or more of u turn, taunt, the rare toxic, and dragon tail.

again u are comparing chansey to a-muk but theyd often be used together with chansey to scout and a-muk as the secondary, where chansey protects a-muk from burns and from extra damage by having to switch in directly, and a-muk covers all the sets chansey struggles with (substitute + sludge bomb mgar and maybe sub monoattacking mzam). (or if not with a-muk then another dark type but u still need a secondary check, “just like” with snorlax no one expects snorlax to be the teams sole check to mgar/zam bc it cant by itself. u are creating expectations for chansey to cover everything that are not set for other bulky pokemon and then saying that the horrible set you have forced chansey into by doing that isnt a good set lol.

 

[CasualPokePlayer]

Nidoqueen is the queen of ground types, and I don't think the rating really represents that.



B+ -> A-

Queen is the bulkier and slower of the two Nidos, and while that can be viewed as a negative, Nidoqueen is able to utilize its bulk and whatever speed it has and successfully do its job. One job, checking Muk-A. Specifically, being able to switch in without taking much damage and threatening a STAB EQ.

Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Muk-Alola: 134-162 (74.4 - 90%)
Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Nidoqueen: 49-58 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.9% chance to 3HKO

You might note that Nidoqueen does not KO, while this is true, Nidoqueen threatens Muk-A with major chip, enough chip for Muk-A to be swept by M-Gengar and the like. It should be noted this is actually somewhat similar to Dugtrio-A, which also doesn't guarantee a KO, and is a 50/50 chance for a KO after rocks, and will take major damage from Muk-A, so you really can't switch in.

Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. Muk-Alola: 144-170 (80 - 94.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Dugtrio-Alola: 78-93 (70.9 - 84.5%)

It should be noted for my examples I use Relaxed Nidoqueen (more on its mixed capabilities later), and unlike Dugtrio-A, who needs a Speed+ nature (to outspeed the base 100's, which is very important for its role), Nidoqueen does not really need to do that, and the only real downsides to using a Speed- nature is now being outsped by Poliwrath and Cloyster (and possibly a mirror match, but Nidoqueen is UU by usage so that's not exactly a common thing), both of which already had a very good matchup against Nidoqueen. If you want to, you could use a Brave nature to reach a higher attack stat than Dugtrio-A, and gain a higher chance to KO Muk-A after rocks, although you won't tank as well as you with Relaxed.

Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Muk-Alola: 150-176 (83.3 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Nidoqueen: 58-69 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Another job Queen can do fairly well is deal with Zapdos. Immunity to Tbolt, Twave, and Toxic and great overall bulk allow Nidoqueen to really punish Zapdos. This is where Queen's mixed capabilities start to shine. While Ice Punch does slightly better with damage, this only applies to the Timid Zapdos, Bold is now becoming more and more frequent, along with Reflect, so Ice Beam shines as a way to directly damage Zapdos and counter cheeky Reflects. Toxic can also be used to wear down Zapdos (along with Mew on the switch). This is especially good against Drill Peck Zapdos who tries to be cheeky and kill before Toxic can wear it down (although it's only a chance at a 4HKO).

Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 58-70 (35.1 - 42.4%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Nidoqueen: 39-46 (23.6 - 27.8%) -- 77.8% chance to 4HKO

Nidoqueen can also function as a semi-check to Dugtrio-A. Dugtrio-A's EQ can't KO Nidoqueen, but Queen can KO with its own EQ.

Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. Nidoqueen: 116-140 (70.3 - 84.8%)
Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Dugtrio-Alola: 158-188 (143.6 - 170.9%)

Nidoqueen can also semi-check Melmetal, a 3HKO with EQ and (most of the time) a 2HKO with Fire Blast.

Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Melmetal: 80-96 (38 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Nidoqueen Fire Blast vs. Melmetal: 94-112 (44.7 - 53.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO (84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

Melmetal Earthquake vs. Nidoqueen: 116-138 (70.3 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Queen has many uses in the meta, and I don't think B+ properly states how well it can function.

 

[Eve]

The LGPE OverUsed VR has been moved to the Ruins of Alph subforum! Join us over there: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lgpe-ou-viability-rankings.3656868/