Metagame LGPE OverUsed

tennisace

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#1
Lets_GO.png


Let's Go Pikachu & Eevee: Overused
approved by OM Leaders. banner by spooktune.
LGPE OU aims to create a (mostly) balanced metagame within the limited framework that the Let's Go games give us. This metagame is based off of the "Normal Rules" in-game, which notably does not use boosts from Candies. It incorporates the unique style of LGPE battles, the new Pokemon Melmetal (and Meltan), and Smogon standard clauses.

Rules:

Mechanics: Pokemon are set to Level 50. Pokemon do not have EVs, Abilities, or Items. IVs and Nature still apply.
Clauses: Smogon-Wide Clauses. Obviously, Moody & Endless Battle don't really apply here.
Allowed Pokemon: Pokemon 1-149, 151, Meltan, and Melmetal are allowed. Mewtwo (#150) is banned.


Strategy:

Essentially, this metagame plays like a souped-up version of RBY OU. Some moves from later generations have been added, but many are excluded. There are no moves that induce weather or field effects, with the exception of Reflect, Light Screen, and Mist (though the latter is underpowered as usual as there are few options to lower stats). The two main strategies in the metagame revolve around Status and Hazards.

Status: Game Freak left almost every status-inducing move in the game AND added a few more for good measure. This includes Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Rest, Sleep Powder, Hypnosis, and Eevee-Starter's new suite of tutor attacks, specifically Sizzly Slide (100% burn) and Buzzy Buzz (100% paralyze). However, Game Freak did NOT leave Heal Bell and Aromatherapy in, which leaves Rest and Eevee-Starter's Sparkly Swirl (which does damage and cures all status effects on your team) as the only ways to get rid of harmful status effects. A good strategy is to spread as many status effects as possible on your opponent's team, putting pressure on an opposing Eevee-S or opposing Taunt users to stop it. On the defensive side, try to strategically use Rest, taking advantage of Generation 7's sleep mechanics to burn Sleep turns, or use your own Eevee-S to clear status effects.

Hazards: Or more accurately, hazard (singular). Stealth Rock made it into LGPE, but Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web are all absent. However, also absent are Rapid Spin & Defog, meaning once SR is up it is up for the duration of the battle. Obviously it is prudent to get Stealth Rock up as early as possible while keeping them off your side of the field as long as possible. Good Stealth Rock setters include Aerodactyl (or Mega Aerodactyl), Mew, and Rhydon. In addition, Aerodactyl and Mew come with the advantage of learning Taunt themselves, which can prevent opposing Stealth Rock from going up and giving you an opportunity to set up your own.

Q&A:

Q: Why is this being tiered? LGPE isn't meant to be competitive.
A: Well, for starters LGPE is the only format to use Melmetal, Pikachu-S, and Eevee-S, which all bring unique characteristics to the game not seen elsewhere. In addition, the metagame using Normal Rules is fairly close to balanced, if not a bit centralized. Mewtwo is just as overpowered as it is in RBY with the best way to check Mewtwo being your own Mewtwo. This allows people to simulate Faraway battles in a balanced format, without worrying about Game Freak's lack of a hack check (seriously like, you can go into battle with Mega Mewtwo X and evolve it into Mega Mewtwo Y).

Q: Will there be more tiers such as LGPE UU?
A: Probably not. Once the Smogon dex supports LGPE, anything above the traditional 3.41% usage rate that isn't banned will be marked OU, and the rest of the Pokemon will be marked "Untiered", like how Pokemon below PU are currently displayed. Banned Pokemon will be marked LGPE AG.

Q: What about LGPE Little Cup?
A: No plans currently. It has an extremely shallow pool of usable Pokemon. If people want to play it aside from a ladder then follow traditional LC rules (must be able to evolve in that game, Level 5).

Q: LGPE DOU?
A: No plans currently. There is a ladder for LGPE Unrestricted Doubles, which will be the same type of AG metagame as singles LGPE AG.

Q: Are any suspect tests planned for LGPE OU?
A: Not at the moment, but that won't be ruled out. Suspect tests will work much like other suspect tests in Other Metagames, but nothing has been decided yet.

Q: What about candies? Will there be a format where candies are allowed?
A: LGPE Anything Goes (LGPE AG) will emulate the No Restrictions format, where Pokemon are Level 100, have max friendship, and have maximum candies. There will be no banned Pokemon and Smogon's AG clauses (or lack thereof) will apply.

Q: Why not use candies?
A: Essentially, candies give a flat +200 to every stat a Pokemon has. Now, at first glance, it may look like +200 to your attack stat and +200 to your opponent's defense stat would cancel out, and in terms of sheer damage output it mostly does. However, every Pokemon has 200 more HP than they normally would, which means the calculations are always skewed in favor of the defender. The metagame is extremely slow, and everything is extremely bulky. Seismic Toss isn't even an 8HKO on Chansey, for example. Few Pokemon have means to boost their stats as well, which means it's tough to break through a well-played stall. Battles drag on for way longer than they would normally.

Q: What about friendship and the 10% boost to all stats at maximum friendship?
A: This is a bit of an open question in the research thread. Essentially, right now it seems like the Happiness boost is transferred in Normal Rules online, unlike the Candies boost. Currently, Showdown defaults to maximum happiness and the boost is allowed. If we later find out they aren't transferred to Normal Rules then the boosts won't be allowed.

Q: Are Alolan Formes allowed?
A: Yes, Alolan Formes of Pokemon are allowed.


Q: Are Mega Evolutions allowed?
A: Yes, Mega Evolutions are allowed. However, due to current technical limitations, the method of allowing a Pokemon to Mega Evolve is still to equip the appropriate Mega Stone in the teambuilder. This means that Charizard cannot choose between its X or Y forme in-battle, and must pick before the battle. The upshot of this though is since there are technically no items, you can run multiple Pokemon that have the ability to Mega Evolve on your team, and pick and choose based on your matchup. You can only Mega Evolve once per battle though as normal.

Q: Are Z-moves in the game? What about Pika Papow or Veevee Volley?
A: Z-moves are not in the game as Z-crystals are not in the game (and there are no items anyway). Pika Papow and Veevee Volley require motion controls to activate and don't pop up during link battles, and are therefore not included.

Resources:

Discord: http://discord.gg/JxMZBXy

Pokemon Showdown Room: https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/lgpeoverused

Damage Calculator: https://cantsay.github.io/

Council:

ABR
aim
Ezaphs
Funbot28
Gross Sweep
tennisace (TL)
Yoshizilla315

Viability Rankings: Post #2
Sample Teams: Post #3
Role Compendium: Post #4
Speed Tiers: Post #5

Usage Stats:
November 2018

Data threads:
-Datamine Info
-Mechanics Research
 
Last edited:

tennisace

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#2
Pokemon Let’s Go Viability Rankings
Last updated: 12/9/18

S-Rank:

Mega Alakazam
Melmetal
Mew

A-Rank:

Upper

Mega Aerodactyl
Eevee (Starter)
Mega Gyarados
Alolan Muk
Zapdos


Lower

Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Nidoqueen
Rhydon
Starmie
Mega Venusaur


B-Rank:

Upper

Mega Charizard X
1543006126483.png
Cloyster
Alolan Dugtrio
Gengar
Mega Gengar
Gyarados
Moltres
Nidoking
Mega Slowbro
Snorlax


Lower

Mega Blastoise
Chansey
Dodrio
1543006142906.png
Alolan Exeggutor
Hitmonlee
1543006160604.png
Kabutops
Poliwrath
Venomoth


C-Rank:

Upper

Mega Charizard Y
Dragonite
Golem
Ninetales
Alolan Ninetales
Omastar
Pikachu (Starter)
Alolan Raichu
Alolan Raticate

Lower

Arcanine
Articuno
Clefable
Mega Kangaskhan
Machamp
Parasect
Alolan Persian
Mega Pinsir
Rapidash
Sandslash
Alolan Sandslash
Tauros

D-Rank: Any Pokemon not listed above.
 
Last edited:

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#3
Pokemon Let’s Go OU Sample Teams
Last Updated: 11/21/18
(More teams will be added in the near future)


Mega Aerodactyl + Mega Alakazam by tennisace
Eevee-Starter
Ability: Run Away
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Sizzly Slide
- Sappy Seed
- Sparkly Swirl
- Protect

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Roost

Muk-Alola
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 50
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Rest
- Toxic

Melmetal
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Rest

Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam

Mew
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt


Standard Mega Alakazam Balance by Gross Sweep
Mew
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Flamethrower

Rhydon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Toxic

Muk-Alola
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 50
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Toxic
- Fire Punch
- Rest

Melmetal
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Rest

Eevee-Starter
Ability: Run Away
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Sappy Seed
- Sizzly Slide
- Sparkly Swirl
- Buzzy Buzz

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Psychic


Alolan Exeggutor Bulky Offense by Ezaphs
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

Poliwrath
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
- Rest

Pikachu-Starter
Ability: Static
Level: 50
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zippy Zap
- Splishy Splash
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

Exeggutor-Alola
Ability: Frisk
Level: 50
Quiet Nature
- Power Whip
- Mega Drain
- Dragon Pulse
- Hypnosis

Muk-Alola
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 50
Sassy Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Poison Jab
- Taunt

Melmetal
Ability: Beast Boost
Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Rest


Mega Venusaur + Dodrio Offense by Funbot28
Rhydon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Mew
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 50
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Roost

Eevee-Starter
Ability: Run Away
Level: 50
Timid Nature
- Sparkly Swirl
- Sizzly Slide
- Sappy Seed
- Protect

Dodrio
Ability: Run Away
Level: 50
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drill Peck
- Roost
- Jump Kick

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mega Drain
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb

Melmetal
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
Careful Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Thunder Wave
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tennisace

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#5
LGPE OU Speed Tiers
All Speeds assumed 31 IV unless otherwise noted.
Made by Kris

Tier 0 (Fastest to >+Spe Base 109)

314 / Dodrio / 110 / +Spe / +2
276 / Arcanine / 95 / +Spe / +2
266 / Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / +2
252 / Arcanine / 95 / Neutral / +2
220 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / +2
216 / Cloyster / 70 / +Spe / +2
205 / Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega / 150 / +Spe / 0
199 / Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / +1
181 / Aerodactyl, Gengar-Mega / 130 / +Spe / 0
180 / Omastar / 55 / +Spe / +2
169 / Alakazam, Pikachu-Starter / 120 / +Spe / 0
164 / Omastar / 55 / Neutral / +2
163 / Persian-Alola, Starmie / 115 / +Spe / 0
157 / Dodrio, Gengar, Raichu-Alola, Tauros / 110 / +Spe / 0


Tier 1 (+Spe Base 109 to >+Spe Base 76)

156 / Ninetales-Alola / 109 / +Spe / 0
151 / Rapidash / 105 / +Spe / 0
145 / Charizard-Mega-X, Charizard-Mega-Y, Mew, Ninetales, Zapdos / 100 / +Spe / 0
139 / Arcanine / 95 / +Spe / 0
133 / Moltres, Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / 0
132 / Mew / 100 / Neutral / 0
129 / Hitmonlee / 87 / +Spe / 0
127 / Articuno, Nidoking / 85 / +Spe / 0
126 / Arcanine / 95 / Neutral / 0
122 / Gyarados, Gyarados-Mega / 81 / +Spe / 0
121 / Dragonite, Kabutops, Venusaur-Mega / 80 / +Spe / 0
118 / Blastoise-Mega / 78 / +Spe / 0
117 / Raticate-Alola / 77 / +Spe / 0


Tier 2 (+Spe Base 76 to >-Spe Base 78)

116 / Nidoqueen / 76 / +Spe / 0
114 / Eevee-Starter / 75 / +Spe / 0
111 / Gyarados, Gyarados-Mega / 81 / Neutral / 0
110 / Dragonite, Venusaur-Mega / 80 / Neutral / 0
108 / Cloyster, Poliwrath / 70 / +Spe / 0
107 / Blastoise-Mega / 78 / Neutral / 0
105 / Nidoqueen / 76 / Neutral / 0
104 / Eevee-Starter / 75 / Neutral / 0
102 / Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola / 65 / +Spe / 0
99 / Poliwrath / 70 / Neutral / 0


Tier 3 (-Spe Base 78 to everything slower)

97 / Blastoise-Mega / 78 / -Spe / 0
93 / Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola / 65 / Neutral / 0
90 / Machamp, Omastar / 55 / +Spe / 0
88 / Clefable / 60 / Neutral / 0
82 / Machamp, Omastar / 55 / Neutral / 0
77 / Chansey, Muk-Alola / 50 / Neutral / 0
71 / Exeggutor-Alola, Golem / 45 / Neutral / 0
69 / Muk-Alola / 50 / -Spe / 0
66 / Rhydon / 40 / Neutral / 0
59 / Melmetal / 34 / Neutral / 0
55 / Slowbro-Mega / 30 / Neutral / 0
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#7
Hey so I have been spamming this meta ever since it went live on server (even though I played it a bit on Nexus previously) and I must say, I have been having more fun then I would ever thought I would. The scarcity of this meta in terms of viable mons is what makes it the most interesting to me especially when factors such as abilities and ev spreads are not taken into account, making the meta more toned-down yet fun at the same time due to how simple it is. I would like to highlight some mons I think are good / fun to use:

: Probs the best mon in the metagame, Mew can do so much. Stallbreaker, SR setter, Bulk Up sweeper, Nasty Plot / Calm Mind sweeper, phazer, etc... there is a Mew set for every team imo. Complimented with all around great bulk and good power and speed enables it to perform all these roles to near perfection. Mew is a threat that should be accounted for on every team which can be so hard due to the versatility it has between all it's sets.

: At first I did not believe the hype behind Eevee-S but holy hell was I wrong. Being the literal only cleric in a metagame where most mons rely in Rest as a form of recovery is really great coupled with an abundance of other great moves which all perform great secondary effects alloes Eevee-S to compress so many roles in one slot. Whether it be draining the opposing team with Leech Seed or crippling opposing mons with status such as burns and paralysis. Only flaw is low bulk and mediocre at best offensive stats, but I believe this mon is the best support mon behind Mew in this meta for sure.

: This mon is so annoying to face yet fun to abuse. Double Iron Bash is such as good move to abuse with Twave support, cheesing its way through most opposing walls especially when backed up with a high Attack stat. Coverage in Earthquake, Rock Slide and the occasional Ice Punch enables it to beat checks such as opposing Melmetal, Zapdos, Dragonite, and Mega Venusaur. Being one of the only viable Steel types makes it extremely splashable in terms of checkling huge threats such as Mega Alakazam, Alolan Muk, and Mega Aerodactyl. Sucks that it has a low speed and low PP on its sig move, but otherwise great mon!

: Best Quiver Dancer in the metagame due to it also having access such as Sleep Powder and Roost. It can usually secure a sweep due to this thanks to a good speed tier which enables it to outspeed entire unboosted meta after one boost. It can be walled by things such as Melmetal still without many boosts but still, Venomoth is a threat you don't wanna sleep on (even though it may force you to lol).

: Best lead options in the metagame. Mega Aerodactyl is usually preferred on teams without Mega Alakazam. Being able to set up Rocks most of the time unless an opposing Aero with Taunt makes it one of the best lead options in the metagame. EdgeQuake combined with amazing speed secures Aero and its mega as a great cleaner as well, shutting down most walls via Taunt and even sustain itself with Roost to circumvent SR damage. Def one of best mega options.

: Already mentioned Mega Alakazam previously but its a great Mega as well for teams looking for a reliable cleaner via its CM set. Recovery also allows it to sustain itself throughout the match combined with great coverage with Shadow Ball and Dazzling Gleam. This mon is one of the main reasons A-Muk is spammed as much as it is which shows its prominence as a threat.


There are many more mons that I feel people should explore more but I will keep this post short for now. Can't wait to see how this meta will progress!
 
#8
From my initial observations, Eevee is incredibly hard to reliably check thanks to the guaranteed burns and easy screens it can get. Facade almost feels like a must on any physical pokemon that wants to go toe to toe with this monster, especially because almost all of the best physical threats to Eevee-S are slower and would just be forced to eat a burn. Plus, with the absence of EVs, Eevee ends up being a lot bulkier than you'd otherwise expect.

A few calcs (probably a bit off, still not quite confident on how to calc)

0 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 141-166 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0+ Atk burned Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 130-154 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- approx. 92.2% chance to 2HKO
0+ Atk Melmetal Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 202-238 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 199-235 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0+ Atk burned Machamp Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 238-282 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0+ Atk Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 186-219 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk burned Machamp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 150-177 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Gross Sweep

Almost Halfway There
is an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor
RMT Leader
#9
I'm Clickable :D

When I approached building for this meta I was a bit confused on where to start as the tier is incredibly new. That said if you've played the ladder you probably saw me jumping into all sorts of games getting a grasp of what people were using on a consistent basis. A few things I found were all offensive cores centered around Mew, be it Mew + M-Zam, Mew + M-Aero, and Mew + anything else. With this in mind I threw a Mew on my team; going with the fast Taunt / Roost / Wisp set as it's phenomenal in the tier while also using Flamethrower as the attack to threaten Melmetal and hit Alolan Muk for neutral damage. After this I knew I wanted to fortify my team vs Psychic-types as they run this meta. I decided on the combination of Alolan Muk + Melmetal as they combine to create a formidable core with the capability of standing up to Mew and M-Zam. Muk is the main line of defense thanks to its Dark-typing providing an immunity, while Melmetal is back up with a psychic resistance + incredible bulk. Melmetal being one of the few Steel-types in the tier also helps it check other volatile threats such as M-Aero and Venomoth. The fourth member of the team I added was Rhydon. Rhydon gave me Stealth Rock, which is huge in this meta as removal doesn't exist. Rhydon also provided the team with a ground typing that helps check Zapdos, who would otherwise be a large pain for the team. Earthquake + Rock Slide is great dual STAB that targets many top threats such as Zapdos, Aerodactyl, Alolan Muk, and Melmetal. Aerodactyl is a possible substitution over Rhydon, but I like the ground typing which helps vs Zapdos - just something to keep in mind if you take the time to test the team. After these four I hit a bit of a stand still, until I finally decided upon M-Zam. M-Zam has an incredible speed tier and powerful Special Attack, which culminates in great cleaning potential when paired with Calm Mind. I went with Mono attack Psychic paired with Sub / CM / Recover which I think is a great set. You do end up weaker vs Alolan Muk as you can't touch it, but due to no Lefties + no removal + the presence of Mew drawing Muk in it's relatively easy to lure in and wear down (also Muk doesn't get Pursuit in this meta, so no need to worry about being trapped). Also with so much stuff spamming Twave and Toxic, Sub CM sets get lots of opportunities vs forced switches and fatter walls like Slowbro who try to click Toxic vs Zam. The final addition was Eevee. Eevee is better than expected as it serves as the tiers only Cleric thanks to Sparkly Swirl helping the team function efficiently as so many of the members rely on Rest to heal themselves. Eevee also has other utility options in the other new signature moves. Sizzly Slide with 100% burn rate is ideal and necessary, Sappy Seed is another solid move I opted for hitting many physical threats such as Slowbro and Rhydon while also grabbing some decent recovery in the Leech Seed it grants, and then I finally went with Buzzy Buzz for paras, but the slot is fairly flexible with moves like Protect also working to stall out damage from a potential Burn + Seeds or simply to check intentions. Overall I really like this team, even if it's a bit more Gyarados weak than I'd prefer. The meta is still new, so I doubt the team will stay standard/strong for long, but I just wanted to supply anyone trying out the meta with a serviceable team. I've really enjoyed playing this meta, and can't wait to see it grow.
 
#10
Pokemon Let’s Go Viability Rankings
sorry if i'm being a bit nitpicky on early vr
- Cloyster is above Omastar, who should drop down to B lower. Cloyster outspeeds Aero-M and Zam-M, both important to not just get your sweep ended. Higher defense also means a more definitive time to set up on mons.
- Sandslash-K has a kinda nice niche of defensive ground, checking Rhydon/Nidos/Melmetal.
- I don't think Starmie's SpA is enough to really threaten anything its supposed to (?, haven't used it outside candy yet)
Melmetal, Mega Alakazam Set/Analysis
 
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#11
- Quick thoughts atm, but Starmie is absolutely awesome in this, having a really good speed tier in general with or without a + nature and really benefiting from water resists being just very poor on most teams to abuse its stab Hydro Pump. And if you're lucky enough to have a water resist, it still has Stab Psychic in the back + boltbeam coverage potentially. And it's one of the few fast things with recovery that isn't weak to rocks. Really fun mon, has a lot going for it which isn't dissimilar to its RBY potential tbh.

- I've seen a lot of Venomoths but tbh the monoattacking set is just largely disappointing. It works in "standard" play only because of Tinted Lens, which it of course cannot have here, so sleeping a wall is meh when it will still wall you three turns later...? To give an example:

+3 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 63-75 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 76-91 (46 - 55.1%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO

The difference is massive, especially when Drill Peck is not even a bad option on Zapdos, but it can never ohko Venomoth with a timid nature, whereas you do it 100% if it comes on rocks. IMO the best way to abuse a Venomoth sweep is still by Eevee's large support movepool, be it by Reflect, burn, paralysis, even leech seed.

- Melmetal is awesome lol, everyone knows this but yeah. It has just enough coverage to be super annoying to switch into and the right status moves to be frustrating without doing so. I've taken a liking to Brick Break even, chips opposite Melmetal and annoys stupid Eevee. By far the most noteworthy steel and really one of the things that does a lot to just tank the viability of certain cool threats (Oh SuCM Ninetales how I wish we could do it...)

So yeah, have some other thoughts - Gyarados-Mega being undervalued as a dark pick / general offensive mon, where the frick is Eggy - but I want to play more with those to pick up on more trends. Overall though this is an extremely fun metagame atm, really hoping it keeps up because there's so much stuff you can do with it despite being restricted to so few mons.
 
#12
Q: LGPE DOU?
A: No plans currently. There is a ladder for LGPE Unrestricted Doubles, which will be the same type of AG metagame as singles LGPE AG. Most of the moves and strategies that make DOU interesting (Fake Out, U-turn, Follow Me, Abilities, Z-moves, etc) aren't present anyway.
Fake Out, U-turn and Protect are present. I don't see why there's an unrestricted one and not a Normal rules one. I don't want to play the AG one because it will be very slow and filled with Mewtwos but I'd play one with Normal rules.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#13
Hey everyone, really great that we got this meta on its feat. I'll probably ask Tennisace to add Cloyster to the VR, I forgot about that Pokemon. I actually thought about it last night when we went over the VR but I completely forgot about it after, oops! I don't think it is necessarily better than Omastar though, while it does out speed Mega Aerodactyl after a Shell Smash boost, Omastar makes better use of its moves. Therefore, we'll probably put it in Upper C. Also, speaking of Water-type mons, I notice Kabutops is missing too oo. I'll figure all that out, but here are some of my thoughts on the meta:


I think Mew is definitely the best Pokemon in the tier. Having a few different sets it can run, it is definitely something you should always consider when building teams. You can run a Taunt + Wisp set, a Nasty Plot stallbreaker set, and even a Bulk Up set, which is probably the coolest in my opinion. In terms of it being broken? I'm not too sure. We're still figuring out the suspect process for OMs, so once we get that all done, I'll probably recollect my thoughts on Mew. For now though, I'm kind of leaning towards the ban side. I've seen a lot of different games where the Mew that wasn't statused just won the game, and that is kind of unhealthy in my opinion. We'll see how the meta develops for Mew over the coming weeks though, and then I think we'll all have a more clear idea of whether or not Mew is broken or unhealthy.


A lot of people didn't know the hidden potential of starter Eevee, but I knew right from the beginning. The thing that sells me this mon the most is that it is the only cleric in the tier. Without it, I think that the meta would pretty much be completely run by status, which is never a good thing in my opinion. It also has some really cool moves that some may consider to be broken aspects of Eevee, such as Sappy Seed and Sizzly Slide. Do I think that Eevee is broken? Absolutely not. I don't think getting rid of Eevee is ever the play, mainly for what I said before: it's the only cleric in the tier. Perhaps a better conversation to have would be to look at certain moves, like the ones I've just mentioned. However, this is definitely a conversation to have much later in the meta's development. Keep in mind the Smogon version of this meta is literally three days old, so we really should wait and see what kind of meta we're going to have before we consider anything with Eevee.


Here's a Pokemon that isn't controversial. Melmetal is probably one of the most fun Pokemon to use right now, as it just does so much damage. Double Iron Bash pretty much 2HKOs anything that doesn't resist, and even has access to Earthquake for the things that can resist, like itself. I think one of the biggest selling points for it is definitely Thunder Wave. That move is super useful even in a candiless meta, and while you won't be fishing for paraflinch, you can definitely slow down some of the faster Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam, and even let you win Melmetal 1v1s. It can even viably run Rest, so you can recover off any mild damage if needed and wake him up with Eevee on a later turn, if at all possible. Overall, I think Melmetal is an incredible Pokemon in this meta, being strong with some nice utility.


Mega Aerodactyl is without a doubt the best mega Pokemon in the tier. I was having a conversation with someone in the Other Metas room on PS! yesterday, and what they said was that Mega Aero was worse than Mega Zam because it has bad STABs + inaccurate ones at that. Well, my response to that was that Rock Slide isn't even that inaccurate, and still gets the job done. On top of that, Mega Aero doesn't even need Flying STAB, as Grass-types are not at all prevalent enough in this meta to warrant the use of that. Instead, Mega Aerodactyl runs Earthquake, for a more consistent attack move. On top of having two good, strong attacks, it also is the fastest Taunt and Stealth Rock user. This of course are two huge redeeming qualities, as Stealth Rock is necessary to get up in games, and Taunt can help prevent that. It does create a lot of turn 1 Mega Aerodactyl ties, but I digress. I definitely think it is the best mega though, and can even be run in conjunction with Mega Alakazam as well (you choose which mega you want to use depending on the match up), as both regular Aerodactyl and regular Alakazam are very viable as well.


Speaking of Mega Alakazam, I think it is the second best mega, but it is definitely a close second. A lack of Focus Blast kind of sucks, meaning it is walled by Alolan Muk, but Stealth Rock + Shadow Ball chip can force a Rest which can be helpful for Alakazam. It also has access to Recover and Substitute, meaning that Mega Zam is almost never dying, as I've found in matches. Not only that, but it also out speeds Mega Aerodactyl as well, making it the fastest Pokemon in the tier. This can be very useful in several match ups, especially to teams that are on the weaker side to Mega Aerodactyl (which a lot of teams are). As aforementioned, you can run this along with Mega Aerodactyl and choose which one you want to use based on the match up. While regular Alakazam loses out on the Speed Mega Alakazam gives, if you already have a different mega, Alakazam can certainly get the job done. It is still very fast and very strong. While Dark-types do give Alakazam a bit of a struggle, it is definitely one of the best Pokemon in the tier.

That's all I have for now, I'll definitely talk about some of the less obvious Pokemon later on, thanks EviGaro for mentioning Starmie btw, Psychic + Hydro Pump is incredible coverage. Ciao for now!
 
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#14
Has anyone tested out some unconventionals against eevee that can outspeed? Primape, Hitmonlee, or a speed natured hitmonchan should be able to OHKO before getting burned, correct? They all get decent enough coverage, so while not optimal, they could be a good check.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#16
Why is normal Gengar ranked higher than M Gengar. Is that a mistake.
No, see the thing with mega Pokemon in this format is if they aren't Mega Aerodactyl, Zam, or Venu, you're probably losing out unless you're building a very specific team. In fact, Gengar is really a utility Pokemon rather than one that is offensive, so the extra speed and power doesn't really mean much for it. Simply, Gengar doesn't really get better with it's mega form and it is able to be used in conjunction with the other mega Pokemon.
 
#17
Hi folks! SolaceAcheron here! I have analyses/viability for all usable Pokemon in LGPE, located here: SolaceAcheron's LGPE Viability/Analysis List

I've been doing You Tube discussions as well, and there's a couple of things we need to take care of:

1. Make sure there's an OU singles format for Candies that's NOT the unrestricted one on Showdown i.e. one that includes species clause, sleep clause, etc. The Candy-less metagame and the one with Candies are vastly different from each other. The "normal" mode of battle, in my opinion, should not be the standard OU, because the new implemented Candy mechanics make this metagame unique and different, as well as being more balanced. A candyless metagame is basically just Sun and Moon with restrictions on moves and species and EV's. Not unique, not fun, and not what Game Freak intended.

Also, all games should have the 20 minute overall timer and the 1:30 move timer. Not moving before the timer should result in either a forfeit or a move chosen at random.

2. This goes for any and all formats: Suspect test Stealth Rocks. As you all know, there is no Rapid Spin or Defog, and this means that getting up any hazard, in this case only Rocks, is permanent. In my opinion, this restricts teambuilding immensely and limits what is viable in this metagame. Pokemon like Mega Charizard-X, Mega Pinsir, Moltres, Arcanine, Mega Beedrill, and Scyther would become viable, and some would help stabilize OU in my opinion. Plus, current teams would not have to either focus an entire 'mon on getting up Rocks, or a moveslot on a role compressed team member. Outside of Taunt, there is no way to prevent Aerodactyl or any other Stealth Rock user from getting up what is essentially free damage the entire match. I think Game Freak made an honest mistake in including it into the game, but luckily we have the power to rectify this.

3. Can't believe I'm saying this...Take a Look at whether Eevee-Starter is broken. Right now, it is ranked S on this thread and S+ on mine -- it's obvious that it is not only necessary for complete teams, but that it is able to 1v1 a majority of the metagame. It's ability to cure status, passively heal itself, and spread burn on all physical attackers, without being able to have these be Taunted, makes it the perfect support Pokemon in both Candy-less and Unrestricted. It has diverse sets as well, being able to Haze set up users, or Paralyze fast threats, or setting up screens, or even massively healing itself with Bouncy Bubble. Under NO circumstances are we banning Sappy Seed by itself; that was a poll on one of the early beta Showdown servers, and it breaks the concept of having no complex bans. Sure, single moves that only one Pokemon can receive have been banned in the past (Geomancy was banned from OU at one point because Smeargle could learn it and BP it) and singular abilities have been banned to bring in one particular Pokemon (Gen 5, Sand Veil was banned to bring in Garchomp), but allowing any kind of complex ban is a slippery road that could lead to a few people dictating exactly how everyone plays in strange ways. Eevee-Starter should be the only thing considered here, and I think that should only happen IF it happens after a Stealth Rock test.

4. In all formats outside of Candy-less (if you implement a non-AG Candy boosted tier), Mewtwo should eventually have a test. While I initially thought that it might be able to break through its common checks such as Alolan-Muk, Mewtwo is, in practice, just as susceptible to being walled by a single member on a team as any other Pokemon. Mega Gengar and Mega Alakazam already have comparable offensive stats. The problem and question that has to be asked is if it would become centralized in any way or potentially be able to break through its checks. But I think it's worth looking at eventually after Stealth Rocks and Eevee are figured out.

That's about it. I think LGPE is a very centralized and strange metagame where Eevee might be better than Mewtwo...but it is competitive and we should not leave it alone.
 
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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#18
1. Make sure there's an OU singles format for Candies that's NOT the unrestricted one on Showdown i.e. one that includes species clause, sleep clause, etc. The Candy-less metagame and the one with Candies are vastly different from each other. The "normal" mode of battle, in my opinion, should not be the standard OU, because the new implemented Candy mechanics make this metagame unique and different, as well as being more balanced. A candyless metagame is basically just Sun and Moon with restrictions on moves and species and EV's. Not unique, not fun, and not what Game Freak intended.
Unfortunately, implementing that kind of meta is not under our control. However, in terms of making it the standard meta, the "council" quite disagrees with that idea. We don't really like candy metas because they make games unecessarily longer and things are just overly bulky. We want a meta where things are just a bit more fast paced, which is why this is the meta that is being used for the standard OU. For the record, TI made this decision if you were curious and want more details.
2. This goes for any and all formats: Suspect test Stealth Rocks. As you all know, there is no Rapid Spin or Defog, and this means that getting up any hazard, in this case only Rocks, is permanent. In my opinion, this restricts teambuilding immensely and limits what is viable in this metagame. Pokemon like Mega Charizard-X, Mega Pinsir, Moltres, Arcanine, Mega Beedrill, and Scyther would become viable, and some would help stabilize OU in my opinion. Plus, current teams would not have to either focus an entire 'mon on getting up Rocks, or a moveslot on a role compressed team member. Outside of Taunt, there is no way to prevent Aerodactyl or any other Stealth Rock user from getting up what is essentially free damage the entire match. I think Game Freak made an honest mistake in including it into the game, but luckily we have the power to rectify this.
We have discussed this a little bit among the current "council" and that is not our number one priority right now. While I agree with everything that you're saying, if we were to look at anything right now it would most definitely be Mew. Banning Stealth Rock is sort of a hard concept to sell on Smogon, that has been shown in the past in metas like ORAS OU and such. However, once we kind of get the whole suspect process thing going in general (not for anything specific), as well as having a more official council established, I think we'll certainly talk about Stealth Rock, but it isn't the first thing on our list right now unfortunately.
3. Can't believe I'm saying this...Take a Look at whether Eevee-Starter is broken. Right now, it is ranked S on this thread and S+ on mine -- it's obvious that it is not only necessary for complete teams, but that it is able to 1v1 a majority of the metagame. It's ability to cure status, passively heal itself, and spread burn on all physical attackers, without being able to have these be Taunted, makes it the perfect support Pokemon in both Candy-less and Unrestricted. It has diverse sets as well, being able to Haze set up users, or Paralyze fast threats, or setting up screens, or even massively healing itself with Bouncy Bubble. Under NO circumstances are we banning Sappy Seed by itself; that was a poll on one of the early beta Showdown servers, and it breaks the concept of having no complex bans. Sure, single moves that only one Pokemon can receive have been banned in the past (Geomancy was banned from OU at one point because Smeargle could learn it and BP it) and singular abilities have been banned to bring in one particular Pokemon (Gen 5, Sand Veil was banned to bring in Garchomp), but allowing any kind of complex ban is a slippery road that could lead to a few people dictating exactly how everyone plays in strange ways. Eevee-Starter should be the only thing considered here, and I think that should only happen IF it happens after a Stealth Rock test.
I think we're under agreement from discussion that Eevee isn't broken. It's not actually able to 1v1 the majority of the meta like you say, I'd like to know some examples there. It's actually a lot more frail than I think you think it is, being able to be OHKOd by the majority of the meta. In terms of being able to cure status, that's something that is a complete necessity for this meta. Burn and Toxic would absolutely be completely unhealthy if Eevee did not exist in my opinion. I think spreading burn 100% of the time whilst doing damage is certainly something we can look into. I don't think banning Sappy Seed or Sizzling Slide is a complex ban by any means. As a matter of fact, it is a perfectly viable option, as no other Pokemon get the moves. If a bunch of other Pokemon had them and they weren't broken with them, that would be a different story. I can assure you Tennisace won't be dictating anything in terms of how we play this game, I think he's being very careful on what he wants to test and such, so don't worry about that haha. But personally, I really don't think we should outright ban Eevee, but rather look into Sappy Seed or Sizzling Slide (most likely the latter imo).
4. In all formats outside of Candy-less (if you implement a non-AG Candy boosted tier), Mewtwo should eventually have a test. While I initially thought that it might be able to break through its common checks such as Alolan-Muk, Mewtwo is, in practice, just as susceptible to being walled by a single member on a team as any other Pokemon. Mega Gengar and Mega Alakazam already have comparable offensive stats. The problem and question that has to be asked is if it would become centralized in any way or potentially be able to break through its checks. But I think it's worth looking at eventually after Stealth Rocks and Eevee are figured out.
Mewtwo is definitely off the table, so maybe you should post in the candy thread? I know for sure tennisace doesn't want to test it.
 
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tennisace

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#19
To add on a bit:

-Like has been said multiple times, LGPE OU will be candyless. Battles turn into huge slogs with candies because a flat increase to HP and defenses > a flat boost to offenses. This isn't just Gen 1 with Gen 7 mechanics, or Gen 7--. This metagame separates itself with unique Pokemon and sets, good battle pacing, and strategy options never seen before in other metagames (double megas with no drawback). Yes, candies are part of LGPE. I just don't believe they're the right choice to balance the metagame around. Currently, the Nexus server's LGPE OU is candied, so if you're interested in that sort of format I'd recommend playing there.

-Changing the timer is off the table imo. It requires special coding & isn't in line with other OU tier standards, which all use the PS timer.

-In terms of potential suspect tests, Mewtwo is 100% off the table here. It is faster than all but 3 Pokemon, stronger than the vast majority, has great coverage, can run more sets than Mew, has the same great support options, etc etc etc. I'm not going to say never to SR but that's a very tricky subject and I would rather balance the Pokemon first than looking at what is generally viewed as an integral part of this and every other metagame SR exists in. Eevee may be looked at in the future (specifically Sizzly Slide) but the first thing looked at will probably be Mew, for reasons others have given here and something I will address in a separate post at a later date (real specific, right?).

Right now, this metagame is in its infancy. Lets give everything time to settle in before we start shaking it all up.
 
#23
4. In all formats outside of Candy-less (if you implement a non-AG Candy boosted tier), Mewtwo should eventually have a test. While I initially thought that it might be able to break through its common checks such as Alolan-Muk, Mewtwo is, in practice, just as susceptible to being walled by a single member on a team as any other Pokemon.
MMX has different counters from MMY, which is enough to say it isn't walled in any mode of LG.

MMX straight up destroys anything with Bulk Up + SlideQuake or Facade if it sets up enough (with Recover, fast speed, Rock Slide to threaten Aero, and the possiblity of Taunt, its hard to not do). The only real thing that can take MMX out is Gengar-M (and other mewtwo), who can't switch in, takes Mewtwo's mega slot, and speed ties at best. Possibly BU/Wisp/DTail Mew could work.

MMY (and reg Mewtwo) may be countered by Alolan Muk, other Darks, and Melmetal but it can always run bulky Wil-o-Wisp or any coverage (even EQ). More so for regular Mewtwo, but it can run a more effective Bulk Up set due to higher attack and speed.
 
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#24
Just giving my two cents about the potential suspects
Eevee should definitely not be suspect tested, this mon is way too frail to take on the whole metagame as people claim. And its role as the only cleric in the game makes it actually very healthy addition an otherwise status-centric meta. The only thing that is annoying is sizzly slide

Also stealth rocks is pretty dumb and should be banned, because unlike gens 4-7, there is literally no way to stop it. Taunt is not a countermeasure at all since your taunt user can't be out at all times, and it hugely decreases viability to any flying type which leads to much less diverse meta

About mew i have no idea, i havent faced it enough i feel to comment
 
#25
Some currently unranked mons:

Venusaur: Decent bulky attacker, I guess?

Charizard: Good movepool but is worse than Arcanine. Roost + Wisp could work.

Blastoise: Good movepool but is worse than Starmie. I don't know why anyone would use this unless it's mega.

Mega Beedrill: Fast and strong. Not much in the meta to punish U-Turn spam. Poison Jab, U-Turn, Drill Run, Roost / Toxic / Brick Break seems like the optimal set.

Mega Pidgeot: Garbage.

Golbat: Decently fast (base 90 speed), access to Roost, Taunt, Defog, Whirlwind, Haze, U-Turn gives it some utility.

Vileplume: Aside from learning Moonblast it's probably just an inferior Venusaur.

Tentacruel: Decent speed and power but aside from special bulk it's outclassed by Starmie. Doesn't get Rapid Spin.

Magneton: Garbage.

Cloyster: Shell Smash, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Posion Jab / Protect / Tri Attack / Self-Destruct / Ice Shard. Looks good, just watch out for Zippy Zap.

Exeggutor: Strong and tanky. It was good in Gen 1 so maybe it will still be decent. I don't know. Same applies to Alolan version.

Marowak: Garbage. Same applies to Alolan version.

Mr. Mime: Worse version of Alakazam. Garbage.

Scyther: Probably bad.

Jynx: Probably bad.

Electabuzz: Maybe usable as a mixed attacker.

Magmar: Most likely a worse Arcanine.

Pinsir: Garbage. Same applies to the mega.

Kabutops: Maybe usable.
 

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