Metagame LGPE OverUsed

[dandecember]

After laddering for a few days here are my thoughts on a few mons:

• Mega Alakazam: Y'all are failing the people by not having Mega Zam as an S rank. It's the best offensive mon in the meta due to having limited checks. It's primary check is almost mandatory because it's on every team, and without A-Muk teams get 6-0'd. Truly threatening.
• Mega Charizard X: Poor zard. It just can't catch a break. It has nearly everything a mon could want in this meta, with good typing for the meta, solid bulk, a good speed tier, and potential to break. Then they gave us permanent stealth rocks. Top of B is probably about the right place for it, as it can still come in at 50% (after rocks) and roost on things like muk.
• Gengar: Mega is outclassed by zam as a purely offensive mon, but it does have a niche with access to wisp. Regular Gengar is a terror to deal with on Mega zam+Gengar offensive cores. They share checks, but their checks don't have reliable recovery. I would probably move it to A.
• MelMetal: As JTD783 said: It's very strong, particularly with t-wave. My zard X team has been running fire blast just to ohko it. It has some solid checks, but has coverage for them and 135 hp makes it hard to take out, even for special attackers.
• Eevee: It's been said before, but all of its moves are ridiculous. Having access to the only reliable way to remove status alone will keep it S for the forseeable future.
• Kabutops: Probably shouldn't be unranked. It has a niche in beating all of the common lead stealth rockers. Priority Aqua Jet is useful in a metagame where zapdos is strong (and therefore so are its checks) and mega zam/mega aero are running through teams. Far from top tier, but probably more consistent than all of lower C and half of upper C.
• A-Muk: Mandatory unless you want to lose to Mega Zam or Mega Gengar. Also functions as a soft zapdos check.
• Rhydon: Good because of Zapdos and Muk being so common.
• Mew: Does everything. Also S for the forseeable future.

I'll definitely be trying nidoqueen, moltres, dodrio, and A-sandslash soon.

 

[zbriggs]

After laddering for a few days here are my thoughts on a few mons:

• Mega Alakazam: Y'all are failing the people by not having Mega Zam as an S rank. It's the best offensive mon in the meta due to having limited checks. It's primary check is almost mandatory because it's on every team, and without A-Muk teams get 6-0'd. Truly threatening.
• Mega Charizard X: Poor zard. It just can't catch a break. It has nearly everything a mon could want in this meta, with good typing for the meta, solid bulk, a good speed tier, and potential to break. Then they gave us permanent stealth rocks. Top of B is probably about the right place for it, as it can still come in at 50% (after rocks) and roost on things like muk.
• Gengar: Mega is outclassed by zam as a purely offensive mon, but it does have a niche with access to wisp. Regular Gengar is a terror to deal with on Mega zam+Gengar offensive cores. They share checks, but their checks don't have reliable recovery. I would probably move it to A.
• MelMetal: As JTD783 said: It's very strong, particularly with t-wave. My zard X team has been running fire blast just to ohko it. It has some solid checks, but has coverage for them and 135 hp makes it hard to take out, even for special attackers.
• Eevee: It's been said before, but all of its moves are ridiculous. Having access to the only reliable way to remove status alone will keep it S for the forseeable future.
• Kabutops: Probably shouldn't be unranked. It has a niche in beating all of the common lead stealth rockers. Priority Aqua Jet is useful in a metagame where zapdos is strong (and therefore so are its checks) and mega zam/mega aero are running through teams. Far from top tier, but probably more consistent than all of lower C and half of upper C.
• A-Muk: Mandatory unless you want to lose to Mega Zam or Mega Gengar. Also functions as a soft zapdos check.
• Rhydon: Good because of Zapdos and Muk being so common.
• Mew: Does everything. Also S for the forseeable future.

I'll definitely be trying nidoqueen, moltres, dodrio, and A-sandslash soon.

________
Im liking the idea of gengar with M-Zam, what moveset and nature would you run on gengar in this case(sorry just getting used to the game again after like 8 years off).

Also wondering your opinion between rhydon vs nidoqueen as the teams rocker?

 

[Funbot28]

Mega Alakazam: Y'all are failing the people by not having Mega Zam as an S rank. It's the best offensive mon in the meta due to having limited checks. It's primary check is almost mandatory because it's on every team, and without A-Muk teams get 6-0'd. Truly threatening.

While I do agree that Mega Zam is an extremely threatening mon and a contender for best Mega Evolution in the format alongside Mega Aerodactyl, I do not feel its on the same caliber of Mew and Eevee-S. While it does one job in revenge killing extremely well due to the power and speed it has, it is kinda linear on what it can accomplish because of its rather limited movepool. The popularity of Alolan Muk, Melmetal and to a lesser extent Mega Gyarados also all take on Mega Zam to a certain extent if they have not been chipped enough. Running coverage in Shadow Ball and Dazzling Gleam can be detrimental at times when you have to forego option such as Substitute, Recover, and Taunt as well. For these reasons, I feel Mega Zam fits best in upper A for now.

 

[dandecember]

________
Im liking the idea of gengar with M-Zam, what moveset and nature would you run on gengar in this case(sorry just getting used to the game again after like 8 years off).

Also wondering your opinion between rhydon vs nidoqueen as the teams rocker?

+speed -Atk on both. Both of them have very threatening speed tiers. I haven't tried nidoqueen yet, but Rhydon is very solid.

 

[zbriggs]

While I do agree that Mega Zam is an extremely threatening mon and a contender for best Mega Evolution in the format alongside Mega Aerodactyl, I do not feel its on the same caliber of Mew and Eevee-S. While it does one job in revenge killing extremely well due to the power and speed it has, it is kinda linear on what it can accomplish because of its rather limited movepool. The popularity of Alolan Muk, Melmetal and to a lesser extent Mega Gyarados also all take on Mega Zam to a certain extent if they have not been chipped enough. Running coverage in Shadow Ball and Dazzling Gleam can be detrimental at times when you have to forego option such as Substitute, Recover, and Taunt as well. For these reasons, I feel Mega Zam fits best in upper A for now.

As a total noob right now ( been out of the meta for years) can you explain how and why substitute is a solid move to have. In my simple mind i see it as a 1/4 hp sac, which is just going to die in the same turn. What is the purpose and situation in which this move excels?

+speed -Atk on both. Both of them have very threatening speed tiers. I haven't tried nidoqueen yet, but Rhydon is very solid.

recommended Gengar moveset in this meta?

 

[dandecember]

recommended Gengar moveset in this meta?

Well if you're using it to overwhelm zam checks like in the core I suggested, it would be something along the lines of Shadow Ball/Sludge bomb/Thunderbolt (dazzling gleam is an option too)/Will-o-wisp. Gengar has some options, so it's worth trying on other cores with different movesets too. You could actually run sub as well for that offensive set.

And that brings me to the other question you asked, which was about sub. It has a lot of uses. Preventing status and allowing setup opportunities are usually the ones that come to mind. For example, opponent switches out to their check and you sub on a mon with swords dance. Free swords dance or free hit. Opponent tries to paralyze your fast offensive mon with t-wave to cripple it. Sub prevents that status and ensures you only take 25% for that next attack. It's a bit nuanced to use correctly and will likely take a bit more experience to understand.

 

[zbriggs]

Well if you're using it to overwhelm zam checks like in the core I suggested, it would be something along the lines of Shadow Ball/Sludge bomb/Thunderbolt (dazzling gleam is an option too)/Will-o-wisp. Gengar has some options, so it's worth trying on other cores with different movesets too. You could actually run sub as well for that offensive set.

And that brings me to the other question you asked, which was about sub. It has a lot of uses. Preventing status and allowing setup opportunities are usually the ones that come to mind. For example, opponent switches out to their check and you sub on a mon with swords dance. Free swords dance or free hit. Opponent tries to paralyze your fast offensive mon with t-wave to cripple it. Sub prevents that status and ensures you only take 25% for that next attack. It's a bit nuanced to use correctly and will likely take a bit more experience to understand.

Thanks for the Info man. Appreciate the help!

 

[dandecember]

Thanks for the Info man. Appreciate the help!

No problem. Another effective use of sub is for scouting. Seeing what your opponent's answer is to what you have in without really having to deal with it immediately.

 

[Shade-Ow]

This is pretty cool ; as someone who hasn't played since Gen 5, I can actually learn about some of the new mechanics without being overwhelmed by the enormous amount of Mons and sets/EV spreads I would have to face in classic Gen 7 OU.

Mew, Eevee-S and Melmetal should probably be looked into ; although they somewhat do have decent checks (you still need to figure out which set Mew's running), Mons that are mandatory on any team just aren't healthy. M-Zam is also pretty stupid considering it can tear through everything that's not Aloan-Muk. So basically it feels like if your team doesn't have Mew, Eevee-S, Melmetal and Aloan-Muk, you're doing something wrong.

 

[dandecember]

This is pretty cool ; as someone who hasn't played since Gen 5, I can actually learn about some of the new mechanics without being overwhelmed by the enormous amount of Mons and sets/EV spreads I would have to face in classic Gen 7 OU.

Mew, Eevee-S and Melmetal should probably be looked into ; although they somewhat do have decent checks (you still need to figure out which set Mew's running), Mons that are mandatory on any team just aren't healthy. M-Zam is also pretty stupid considering it can tear through everything that's not Aloan-Muk. So basically it feels like if your team doesn't have Mew, Eevee-S, Melmetal and Aloan-Muk, you're doing something wrong.

Eevee definitely isn't mandatory. It's just really good bc it fills roles that can't otherwise be filled. Luvdisc would be good at doing what Eevee does.

 

[kantotrainer90]

I play on Lets Go comp and I know alot of people here are talking about Showdown. Since Mewtwo isn't banned when your playing random online people can anyone tell me if the viability list includes Pokemon that would be good to deal with Mewtwo?

 

[Jrsmash9]

I think melmetal is actually better then eevee because it is required on every team unlike eevee. HO doesent need eevee while it still needs melmetal and mew.

 

[ShadowShadoge]

I think melmetal is actually better then eevee because it is required on every team unlike eevee. HO doesent need eevee while it still needs melmetal and mew.

Yeah. I never see a team without Melmetal.

I play on Lets Go comp and I know alot of people here are talking about Showdown. Since Mewtwo isn't banned when your playing random online people can anyone tell me if the viability list includes Pokemon that would be good to deal with Mewtwo?

M-Gyara. Always takes a hit from it and OHKO's with Crunch. 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Mewtwo Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[JTD783]

Yeah. I never see a team without Melmetal.


M-Gyara. Always takes a hit from it and OHKO's with Crunch. 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Mewtwo Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

EVs don't exist in this meta. It should be: 0 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 74-90 (42.2 - 51.4%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

Shade-Ow Slowbro is a very solid Melmetal check. Any strong special attacker pressures it but the risk of getting T-Waved or taking a million from DIB makes it hard to deal with.

 

[Shade-Ow]

Grinded a lot but I grow tired of having the same Melmetal vs Melmetal fight every game ; it all comes down to the final speed tie every time too ; (starting to consider using a Jolly nature). Even when I lead it and the opponent has an entire full health party at his disposal, it seems his only answer is sending his own ; other things that might be able to switch into it usually can't do more than 70% in return because he's so bulky, which means they'll take another hit and die. Also most Mons that could actually check it are almost never seen because of their weakness to stealth rock.

 

[Failure999]

What about the fact it can also learn all the elemental punches? Fire and Thunder Punch...
Unrelated: So Articuno and Moltres best natures are no longer Timid in Lets Go? It's Naive?

Yes, It does get those, but you have to take note, it has only a base 80 attack, well below other, much stronger attackers, with some also being able to set up as well. It's outclassed by Zard X, who has all the coverage it mostly needs but is held back even then by the unfavorable matchup with the top threats. As a ghost type, it... still is outclassed by Mega Gengar. Its slow, weaker than you'll like, has only mediocre defenses and has many weaknesses that are commonly found like Ground, Water and the likes.
Also, The Legendary Trio have naive natures so as to have a better attack to deal with Chansey. Moltres and Articuno run Sky Attack to do so, which has increased base power and is a STAB physical attack.
So, just a question, is a mixed Cloyster set with Surf/Hydro Pump and Icicle Crash viable? It does hit on both spectrums, avoiding getting walled by physical walls.

 

[widget624]

So, just a question, is a mixed Cloyster set with Surf/Hydro Pump and Icicle Crash viable? It does hit on both spectrums, avoiding getting walled by physical walls.

Icicle crash isn't in let's go. Ice shard is the only physical ice move it learns.

Ice Punch is the only other physical ice move in the games.

 

[Yoshi]

In terms of Cloyster, I would recommend running this:

Cloyster
Level: 50
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Shell Smash
- Tri Attack

Cloyster does not have a good physical move pool, and Surf is really enough for damage. Unfortunately, it means you probably need at least some chip on the opposing team on top of Stealth Rock damage, but it is well worth the consistency. Also, while Omastar makes better use of its ability to use special moves, Cloyster can out speed Mega Aero and Mega Zam after one Shell Smash boost, making it better.

 

[LGPE OU Test]

Just wanted to post a couple of thoughts on the metagame so far, which is so nostalgically reminiscent of RBY OU, it's scary!

I've been testing a few teams on ladder, I definitely think Bulky Offense and Hyper Offense teams thrive the most in this metagame. Every team should be adequately prepared to deal with threats like Mega Alakazam, Mega Gengar, Mega Gyarados, Melmetal, etc. I've preferred HO teams on ladder, as there is a decent skill ceiling required to successfully utilize one, but just as in RBY OU, Psychic types remain dominant. For me, one of the most devastating offense cores that exists as the moment is (Mega)-Alakazam + (Mega)-Gengar + Nasty Plot Mew. Having two psychic type set up sweepers and one annoying ghost type can be extremely dangerous, as soon as Alolan Muk is removed. In fact, one of my favorite Gengar sets right now is SubWisp, because if Gengar has sub up, it can proceed to burn threatening dark types like Alolan-Muk and Mega-Gyarados, and really just neuter their effectiveness. Some other options I've considered are Disable and Sub + 3 Attacks Gengar, but generally Wisp seems to be the optimal choice.

Here is the team I've been using to ladder with, it has generally done well (I'm currently at 1287, which is decent but I'm definitely planning on laddering some more)

https://pokepast.es/ca63c2e573a92714

The way this team works is simple. Try to get up rocks with (Mega)-Aero, and against opposing Aero leads, lead with Melmetal and either Double Iron Bash or T-Wave if you predict a switch. After that, if you haven't mega evolved Aero, you have an option of either mega evolving Alakazam or Gengar and coupled with Nasty Plot Mew, really do some damage. Alolan Muk is the teams psychic type resist and does a fantastic job of solidifying the team. Overall, I really like this meta and hope to discover some great things in the future.

 

[Shade-Ow]

Here is the team I've been using to ladder with, it has generally done well (I'm currently at 1273, which is decent but I'm definitely planning on laddering some more)

https://pokepast.es/ca63c2e573a92714

The way this team works is simple. Try to get up rocks with (Mega)-Aero, and against opposing Aero leads, lead with Melmetal and either Double Iron Bash or T-Wave if you predict a switch. After that, if you haven't mega evolved Aero, you have an option of either mega evolving Alakazam or Gengar and coupled with Nasty Plot Mew, really do some damage. Alolan Muk is the teams psychic type resist and does a fantastic job of solidifying the team. Overall, I really like this meta and hope to discover some great things in the future.

Is there a point running two rest Mons when you don't have Eevee ? How often do you get to have them rest and survive till they wake up ?

 

[tennisace]

Also, The Legendary Trio have naive natures so as to have a better attack to deal with Chansey. Moltres and Articuno run Sky Attack to do so, which has increased base power and is a STAB physical attack.

This is pretty bad advice tbh. Chansey isn't common in the first place, and you're better off either using Toxic or U-turning out of Chansey. Two turn attacks with no way to get rid of the charge turn aren't good. They don't even deal with Chansey because it can either Teleport or switch out on the charge turn into a Rock-type. If it's Aerodactyl. then you get outsped and OHKO'd while being locked in.

 

[JTD783]

popping in again for more thoughts. I reached somewhere around top 60 on ladder earlier so I've seen a lot more. Takeaways: Mega Zam is insanely good, Zapdos is amazing, Melmetal is busted, Eevee is one of the most cancerous mons I've ever played against (including Aegislash and Genesect in OU and Mega Ray in ubers), not because it's super strong but because guaranteed burn + leech seed + offensive heal bell + [insert last move] is so frustrating to switch into without having one's team heavily crippled in the process and every team should use it, mew is busted, fire blast Alolan Muk is a really cool tech against Melmetal, Slowbro is a nice blanket check, don't run dodrio / other "slow" set-up sweepers because Zam or others will curbstomp it, don't bother trying to prevent rocks on your side just get yours up and move on, run Toxic and Thunder Wave on everything because if opponent's Eevee drops then they're fucked, haven't seen Exeggutor Starmie Dragonite Arcanine and others even once, stall is bad because everything hits hard there's no hazard control and its too hard to check everything while not dying to status.

Perhaps you could have guessed this based on my ramblings, but unless some suspect tests occur or the meta develops significantly I will never play LGPE again. It's horribly unbalanced and overcentralized, and too many games come down to Will-o-wisp misses, speed ties, matchup, etc. "lol shut up JTD you salty fucking {insert ban-worthy insult}", yeah you're probably right but in any case this meta makes me want to go commit Lavender Town so I'll wait until things improve. later, and best wishes :)

Hide

 

[LGPE OU Test]

Is there a point running two rest Mons when you don't have Eevee ? How often do you get to have them rest and survive till they wake up ?

More often than you'd think. Alolan Muk and Melmetal compose the defensive backbone of my team, so I need them to be as healthy as possible to deal with a wide variety of threats, in general. While I do lose some momentum, running Rest allows me to win mirror matches at times because of proactive playing.

Another team I've looked into is a Bulky Offense team featuring Mega Gyarados. This team has currently reached #1 on the ladder (congrats koishi luna) and is a relatively optimized build. The objective of the team is to set up SR and then spread status to slowly chip down the opposing team until Mega Gyarados can finish the opposition off. Bulk Up Mew is an incredibly efficient phazer and really accomplishes the goal of phazing and spreading status. All in all, this team proved to me that the most successful teams in this meta will need to take advantage of SR + status in order to overwhelm the opposition. I'd recommend placing this as a sample team, so newer players can quickly garner ladder points tennisace

https://pokepast.es/4f1f537064da157b

Finally, offensive teams often resort to having a defensive backbone composed primarily of Alolan Muk and Melmetal. It is easy to exploit this with some unorthodox sets. One such set I was looking into it "Double Dance" Mew. In particular, this set is quite niche but allows one to overcome Alolan Muk and Melmetal quite easily, which can allow for potential partners such as Mega Alakazam and Gengar to wreck havoc. Obviously, because this variant of Mew forgoes any reliable form of recovery, partners like Starter-Eevee work best with it. Either a Naive or Naughty nature can be used, but I prefer Naughty because Mew always claims a OHKO on Alolan Muk at +1 after SR damage. Additionally, Flamethrower has a 81.3% chance of OHKOing Melmetal after SR damage (the OHKO becomes guaranteed if you run Fire Blast, but the drop in accuracy can be detrimental at times). In these calcs, I used Mega Aggron and changed its stats to match Melmetal's and removed Filter.

+2 0 SpA Mew Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron-Mega: 192-226 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0+ Atk Mew Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 158-186 (87.7 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

https://pokepast.es/e096551c73495a3e

I really want to test this variant of Mew out on another future build, I think this metagame is very young and many creative sets are yet to be discovered!

 

[ShadowShadoge]

EVs don't exist in this meta. It should be: 0 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 74-90 (42.2 - 51.4%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

Shade-Ow Slowbro is a very solid Melmetal check. Any strong special attacker pressures it but the risk of getting T-Waved or taking a million from DIB makes it hard to deal with.

Sorry, never realised that.

 

[dizzSA]

Does LGPE have abilities? I didn't notice them anywhere. Or is it just a Showdown limitation that doesn't allow blank abilities?