Liepard (Analysis) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Pokemon Researcher
#1
Done!

Since hide tags don't work, I uploaded the original skeleton here http://www.mediafire.com/view/f3ok3dcwq7o1hmr/Liepard.rtf to avoid scrolling through two analyses to get to the comments. And if it does work somehow and I'm just not aware, please tell me.
No download is required for that link btw, it should just be viewable as text.


Liepard

[Overview]

<p>With a support movepool of great moves such as Encore and Thunder Wave, Liepard can be quite an annoyance on the battlefield. A contender for the title of most frustrating Prankster Pokemon to face, Liepard can stack the paralysis and confusion status effects from behind the safety of a heightened-priority Substitute. Liepard needs all the help it can get as it lacks decent bulk and will go down fairly quickly to anything if left open to attack, but even so, with proper support and a little luck, it can be a solid player in any battle.</p>

[SET]
name: Swagger
move 1: Swagger
move 2: Thunder Wave / Encore
move 3: Foul Play
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Prankster
nature: Timid
evs: 148 HP / 68 Def / 68 SpD / 224 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>For those fortunate enough to have never run into this set, this Liepard takes advantage of Prankster to create a Substitute, then induce confusion with Swagger. Annoying but harmless enough, right? It would be if Liepard didn't have Foul Play. Foul Play uses the opponents' Swagger-raised Attack stats against them as they struggle to even damage Liepard back and avoid damaging themselves in their confusion. This strategy is very much luck-based, but if luck favors Liepard, it can easily sweep a team.</p>

<p>Thunder Wave and Encore both help Liepard stay behind a Substitute, as its defense stats are extremely bad. Thunder Wave stacks on top of Swagger to ensure opponents will be unlikely to attack anytime soon. Encore gives Liepard extra chances to set up at the cost of a secondary status. Foul Play, again, takes advantage of Swagger's Attack-raising effect, and also gives Liepard a needed option to handle Magic Bounce users.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Liepard's Speed EVs allow it to outpace Garchomp, and the defensive EVs maximize its overall bulk. Entry hazards are a necessity for this set as the opponent can otherwise just switch out constantly without fear. Pokemon that can reliably spread paralysis, such as Jirachi, Rotom-W, and Celebi, make great partners for Liepard and reduce its risk factor. Sand and hail remove Liepard's Leftovers recovery, so while it's not required, rain support can be very helpful. Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Forretress are able to set up entry hazards against Liepard and cripple its team for the rest of the battle, so Rapid Spin support can be very handy. ExtremeSpeed threatens this strategy a good deal, so be wary around Lucario and Dragonite. Imposter Ditto makes a great partner for Liepard as it can take advantage of the opponent's Swagger-boosted Attack stat and potentially steamroll though teams should Liepard fall.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>To be generous, Liepard's offensive movepool is bad, so even though it has Nasty Plot, don't bother with it. Priority Yawn can be nice for forcing switches alongside Encore, but there are very few situations in which it's better than Thunder Wave as Liepard can already render Pokemon useless with Encore. Liepard also has the gimmick of priority Assist, but diving into Assist-based teams would take an entire article.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Liepard is very frail but deceptively hard to shut down thanks to priority Thunder Wave, Swagger, and Foul Play punishing anything that wants to KO it. Magic Bounce users will just be hit with Foul Play, so they're not practical counters. Bulky Landorus-T is one of the best checks to Liepard as it can just come in and U-turn on it, resetting all of Liepard's setup, but other defensive Ground-types work almost as well. Pokemon with low Attack and/or a Dark resistance that don't really mind paralysis such as Leftovers Magnezone, Forretress, specially defensive Rotom-W, and specially defensive Heatran work perfectly as checks to Liepard. The former three Pokemon can also break its Substitute with Volt Switch while bringing in another Pokemon to KO it, while Heatran can Roar Liepard out. Ferrothorn works well thanks to Iron Barbs, but Rocky Helmet Skarmory is even better thanks to Roost and Whirlwind.</p>
 
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ginganinja

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#2
This thing single-handily made me quit pokemon for a fucking week it was so annoying gdi.

I don't like the actual set tho and your opponents made questionable plays that make it difficult for me to see if the sets even worthy. Anyway, the set I used (and run into the most) looks something like Foul Play / Thunder Wave / Swagger / Substitute, with Encore or Taunt over either Sub or T-Wave. The set itself is good and v, fucking annoying, since you can stall with Sub + T-Wave + Swagger while always having the option of killing something with Foul Play. I ran it with Spikes and a Scarf Ditto so I could copy the attack boosts given with Swagger if I got unlucky, and the hazards would discourage switching around to remove confusion. I prefer my set a heck of a lot more to yours but whatever, its not worth the OO mention you gave it IMO.

QC can weigh in on this or whatever but imo I prefer using swagger with Liepard, especially as its one of the better abusers of it.

OO assist as its also one of the things its got going for it. Those gay Assist Spore teams are a bitch to play against.
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Pokemon Researcher
#3
Ya know, I expected you to say the exact opposite about Swagger-Foul Play. It's just so horribly luck-based especially since all it takes is a U-turn to reset all you set up, which Landorus (-T or -I) would be more than happy to do. It's also entirely worthless against weatherless stall since Blissey or Chansey just don't care and can even cure teammates.

But even so, I can definitely see where it would be good because if it gets behind a Sub, that shit can snowball fast but god damn is it luck-based. I've ran into it a few time before but I run basically a VoltTurn team and after I realized how to beat it, it was never really an issue again and I'd imagine that better players would catch on to that quicker than I did.

I can make it a full set in the analysis if you want. Just post the EVs and anything you want said about it cause you definitely know the set better than I do.
 

alexwolf

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#4
Foul Play + Swagger + Sub + Encore/T-Wave is easily Lieapard's best set in OU and is actually very effective. Use it with some hazards support and maybe some paralyze support and you are set. While it is true that the strategy is luck based the odds are still in Lieapard's favor as long as it gets a free turn (whether this is by encoring something or forcing something out with the threat of Foul Play). Liepard is also very fast and can act as a check to threats such as Garchomp, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Kyurem-B (BTW all of those Pokemon except Dnite are forced out by Lieapard if they setup). Finally, priority Thunder Wave is really useful and can save a team from dangerous situations, which is just the icing on the cake.

So definitely add the Swagger set with a max HP / max Spe spread and a Timid nature.

I don't know about your set as i have never used it, so i have to test it first.
 
#5
I would like to suggest a Timid spread of 148 HP / 68 Def / 68 SDef / 224 Spd on the Swagger set (which really needs to be added, preferably as the first or only set). This gives you just enough speed to outpace Garchomp (who you can sorta keep in check with Foul Play), and the defensive EVs are used to maximize overall bulk (I know it looks weird, but it is a bit bulkier overall than 252/16/16 investment due to Liepard's particular defensive stats). The bulk investment could be changed to emphasize either physical or special bulk or some defensive benchmark if someone has a better idea for that.
 

Katakiri

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is a Pokemon Researcher
#6
For the people that want to test out my set, here's my team:
Winter (Liepard) (F) @ Dark Gem
Trait: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Encore

Clawz (Latios) (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 204 SAtk / 52 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Trick

Shleep (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 208 Def / 100 Spd
Lax Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

Jackle (Heracross) (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge
- Sleep Talk

Goodle (Scizor) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Donbalon (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SAtk / 144 SDef / 88 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split


Full team analysis: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3477956

Short version:
Liepard replaces Zoroark but the concept is the same; snipe sweepers with Sucker Punch along with all the other nasty tricks Liepard has like messing with the Pokemon that Sub on Landorus-T or Rotom-W like Gengar or Kyurem or w/e.
Heracross smashes Pokemon apart with CC & Megahorn. Megahorn can 2HKO Jellicent and CC 2HKOes Skarm so they aren't issues separately.
Latios deals with Keldeo and pairs up with Heracross to smash more stuff. I usually Trick early against stall or Sun.
Scizor is a jerk that preys on unsuspecting Celebi & Lati@s that want to HP Fire, Sub, or avoid Pursuit.
Rotom-W & Landorus-T are the "defensive" core and just keep momentum going for more smashing stuff with Heracross.

Really short version: It's VoltTurn with two wall breakers.

Edit: Added a placeholder for the Swagger set. Not sure which set QC wants listed first so I took a guess.
 

alexwolf

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#7
Foul Play + Swagger + Sub + Encore/T-Wave is easily Lieapard's best set in OU
I have already mentioned that i want to see the Swagger set first so you guessed right.

Make the spread on this set look like the one that Agent Gibs posted, and slash Encore after Thunder Wave.
 
#8
Just thought you should mention that Tornadus should get a mention in the checks & counters section as a fairly reliable counter, since it can come in on anything but Thunder Wave and a U-Turned counter, and cripple it with a faster Prankster Taunt, forcing it out unless it wants Tailwind set up in its face.
 

Gary

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#9
I'd definitely mention Breloom, and Justified users such as Terrakion and Lucario as checks to Liepard. Although most of them wont like taking a T-Wave to the face, Breloom can KO with priority Mach Punch regardless of paralysis, while Terrakion and Lucario can come in on a Foul Play, giving them a free +1 Attack boost. Conkeldurr is also a decent switch-in to T-Wave if its using Guts, giving it a free 50% Attack boost.
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Pokemon Researcher
#10
It seems my hitting my PC with a rock-method was finally successful! (Not really sure what the problem was but w/e)

Just finished the outline so at least it's QC ready. I'll work on the full write-up soon.
 

AccidentalGreed

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#13
It says timid and you're using foul play
Code:
252+ Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 208-246 (53.19 - 62.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 208-246 (53.19 - 62.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Foul Play's damage output is the same regardless of which nature and how much investment Liepard puts in its Attack. Therefore, Timid is preferred to lower confusion damage on Liepard's part. The physical aspect is merely there just so the attack is classified as something (allowing Liepard to be affected by contact abilities such as Static, Iron Barbs, and Flame Body).
 

ginganinja

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#18
Quick Points

-Your overview hypes up Liepard a little 2 much. Perhaps mention some of its weaknesses since currently I am aware of no flaws in using liepard.

First set:
-Explain what your EV spread does.
-Also mention that Liepard potentially enjoys spin support as it is quite possible for a Ferrothorn to switch in, set up 4 layers, and massively handicap you for the rest of the match.
-Also mention Ditto being an excellent partner, since if Liepard dies, Ditto can switch in, copy the pokemon + its swagger boosts, and attempt to clean.

Second Set

The unique combination of Sucker Punch and Encore creates many "win" situations for Liepard. For instance, Pokemon like Volcarona or Gengar are locked-down by Sucker Punch and Encore. They KOed by Sucker Punch if they attack, trapped into Encore the next turn if they don’t.
According to a quick calculation: 252+ Atk Dark Gem Liepard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 235-277 (75.56 - 89.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Please tell me that I am missing something because this doesn't scream "OHKO". You don't mention how helpless you are against stuff like Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Gliscor, here, or how your power drops off after the Dark Gem is used, or how pokemon such as Lum DD Dragonite can very easily still attempt to set up.

In general, I don't see any negatives to using Liepard in general in this analysis, save for perhapes the Checks and Counters section. Please mention its vulnerabilities + the other stuff I brought up.



EDIT @ Below

I 100% agree
 
#19
The most immediate thing that's wrong with the analysis is the 2nd set, it seems like it would be really bad in practice. I think it would be best if you removed it or dropped it into OO.
 
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Katakiri

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is a Pokemon Researcher
#20
Yeah I see what you mean, ginga. I have a tenancy to do that so I'll try to tone that down in the future.

I strongly believe the support set is fine. To put it simply, it's Prankster-abuse Whimsicott with STAB Sucker Punch instead of Leech Seed. It just trades (Sub)Seed for the ability to actually pick off something that it can't Encore. It might not be able to OHKO many mons neutrally without hazards but the exact same can be said for CB Scizor. The niche is there and the set is good enough at what it does to be noted so long as it's not pushed to do ridiculous tasks like OHKO things neutrally from full health with no hazards. Offensive Support can only do so much; if you want a support Pokemon to do more than 89% damage with a priority attack on a neutral hit, I wish you luck in finding one. I'll remove the Volcarona mention.

It's up to you guys in the end but that's how I feel.

I'll edit everything later today. In the middle of my last day of finals atm. @_@
 

ginganinja

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#21
I strongly believe the support set is fine. To put it simply, it's Prankster-abuse Whimsicott with STAB Sucker Punch instead of Leech Seed. It just trades (Sub)Seed for the ability to actually pick off something that it can't Encore. It might not be able to OHKO many mons neutrally without hazards but the exact same can be said for CB Scizor. The niche is there and the set is good enough at what it does to be noted so long as it's not pushed to do ridiculous tasks like OHKO things neutrally from full health with no hazards. Offensive Support can only do so much; if you want a support Pokemon to do more than 89% damage with a priority attack on a neutral hit, I wish you luck in finding one. I'll remove the Volcarona mention.
Couple of things. Firstly, I don't like how you are comparing its power to CB Scizor. CB Scizor has a permanent power boost on its Bullet Punch, while Dark Gem is a one time use, which limits your damage output quite heavily. Secondly, as I pointed out, your set is exceptionally vulnerable to any team that prefers to set up hazards, (Skarm, Ferrothorn, Forre being the common ones) hampering your team greatly. Thirdly, the set suffers against many common sweepers, while Liepard itself lacks significant bulk or useful resistances. Like for support pokemon, Liepard is already competing with hazard setters, as well as pokemon like Jirachi or Physically Bulky Politoed, any other support pokemon that comes to mind. These pokemon have more useful abilities / resistances / typing / utility than what Liepard brings to the table. Fast paralysis is nice, but the Swagger set does this just as well (although it cannot run Encore). Sweepers that I already pointed out, such as Garchomp, Lum DD Dragonite, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, these are all common, and threatening sweepers which you can really only Sucker Punch. Even if you actually manage to paralyse something, 9 times outta 10 you die at the end of the turn due to the insignificant bulk you have.

These are just some of the various problems I actually have with the set. Feel free to debate these with me if you want, I just don't see what I would use it for, which is why im having a tough time seeing it work.
 

Katakiri

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is a Pokemon Researcher
#22
Points well-made. I do think you're selling Sucker Punch+Encore a little short but I'm not going to argue over it. It's up to you guys decide whether to toss it or drop it down or w/e.

Aside from the fate of the 2nd set, I think I edited-in everything asked.
 
#23
Chunk the support set. Ginga's post addresses pretty much everything that I have against it. Other than that, it looks good, and I'd be glad to stamp it after the removal of that set.
 
#24
I think we should consider the possibilities of unburden as a viable set.
If you use a focus sash and nasty plot on the first turn, you can get two boosts in one turn as the focus sash is used and unburden activates. It's gimmicky, but it might work in the low tiers.
I mean, liepard is fast enough, but with a speed boost and a nasty plot boost, it could sweep despite its shallow movepool.
 
#25
Prankster already gives Liepard priority (infinite Speed) on everything it would ever want to use. Why would we waste an item slot AND an ability on something gimmicky that isn't guaranteed to work (or even likely?)
 

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