-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
I think your stance on purely flavor/aesthetic form differences like Alcremie, Vivillon, and whatnot largely depends on what you engage in Pokemon for and what you expect from different Pokemon you like best.
If you're mainly interested in Pokemon for the battling aspect, then yeah, you're probably not gonna care much about multiple forms that are purely aesthetic or there for flavor/lore.
But if you're the collector type who loves collecting Pokemon, or you're just deeply interested in worldbuilding and the Pokemon world and are interested in this kind of stuff, then you're probably more likely to like at least some of these mons. People who are purely into Pokemon for collecting may find a lot of fun in collecting these forms and it brings a new fun value in trying to catch and evolve multiple of the exact same species for the sake of their collection. Some other people may just find it cool that one Pokemon can have so many aesthetic differences for a variety of reasons like with the likes of the Flabebe line and the multiple Vivillon forms across the world. Evolving many different Alcremie forms from Milcery through a variety of spins in-game.
The main thing that makes Pokemon so appealing to a wide audience is that everyone has their own reasons for being into Pokemon. This is Smogon, a board of forums focused on competitive Pokemon battling, so naturally a lot of people who frequent here will be into Pokemon for the battling aspect (I myself included admittedly). But there are many who don't see Pokemon battling as the main reason they're into Pokemon, and they may find value in things we as the type who enjoy Pokemon for its battling aspect don't really find value in. Most of us here on these forums may not care much for mons with purely aesthetic form differences like Vivillon, Florges, and Alcremie having these different appearances because they don't affect their battle capabilities, which is the main thing we're into Pokemon for, but some people who just love collecting Pokemon or just like these forms because of worldbuilding may genuinely find merit in these mons and value in collecting them or just them existing.
Some people say "variety is the spice of life", and as cliche as it is, in this case that does apply with Pokemon as a whole in a weird way. There are many kinds of people who can be into Pokemon for different reasons, and all kinds of Pokemon exist in different ways, and as such just about any Pokemon that exists can appeal to all different kinds of people and each individually to different crowds. Even Pokemon that don't seem appealing to many of us here who are into Pokemon for battling can still have merit to other people who enjoy Pokemon for a different reason that isn't the battling aspect. That's why Pokemon has historically appealed to so many people and become so popular worldwide after all.
If you're mainly interested in Pokemon for the battling aspect, then yeah, you're probably not gonna care much about multiple forms that are purely aesthetic or there for flavor/lore.
But if you're the collector type who loves collecting Pokemon, or you're just deeply interested in worldbuilding and the Pokemon world and are interested in this kind of stuff, then you're probably more likely to like at least some of these mons. People who are purely into Pokemon for collecting may find a lot of fun in collecting these forms and it brings a new fun value in trying to catch and evolve multiple of the exact same species for the sake of their collection. Some other people may just find it cool that one Pokemon can have so many aesthetic differences for a variety of reasons like with the likes of the Flabebe line and the multiple Vivillon forms across the world. Evolving many different Alcremie forms from Milcery through a variety of spins in-game.
The main thing that makes Pokemon so appealing to a wide audience is that everyone has their own reasons for being into Pokemon. This is Smogon, a board of forums focused on competitive Pokemon battling, so naturally a lot of people who frequent here will be into Pokemon for the battling aspect (I myself included admittedly). But there are many who don't see Pokemon battling as the main reason they're into Pokemon, and they may find value in things we as the type who enjoy Pokemon for its battling aspect don't really find value in. Most of us here on these forums may not care much for mons with purely aesthetic form differences like Vivillon, Florges, and Alcremie having these different appearances because they don't affect their battle capabilities, which is the main thing we're into Pokemon for, but some people who just love collecting Pokemon or just like these forms because of worldbuilding may genuinely find merit in these mons and value in collecting them or just them existing.
Some people say "variety is the spice of life", and as cliche as it is, in this case that does apply with Pokemon as a whole in a weird way. There are many kinds of people who can be into Pokemon for different reasons, and all kinds of Pokemon exist in different ways, and as such just about any Pokemon that exists can appeal to all different kinds of people and each individually to different crowds. Even Pokemon that don't seem appealing to many of us here who are into Pokemon for battling can still have merit to other people who enjoy Pokemon for a different reason that isn't the battling aspect. That's why Pokemon has historically appealed to so many people and become so popular worldwide after all.
Which is probably the majority of what goes into that type design work. "Hey this would be a cute gimmick, yeah?" "Oh wouldn't this look cool?" "I think this would be some fun flavor"
It's simple, people who dont have 100% collector brain can find a favorite or have a bit of randomness that doesn't super effect anything, and people who do like collecting things can have something to collect if they want.
Alcremie gets a little crazy but honestly gamefreak threw a bone with that: the minisprites only tracks the flavor, the pokedex only tracks the flavors and Home just straight up gives you all the decoration variants for each color the moment they're deposited.
Sinistea & Polteageist are the only ones that kind of annoy me just because it's so minor and so rare that it kind of flips from "oh how quaint" to "ok could you really not give ANY other tell for this*". Like I get that's the joke but in this specific case it just lands on maybe reign it back a little.
Even then as a collector I just...don't collect it. So not a big deal; meanwhile collecting the miniors or the alcremies was really easy and I wound up collecting all the squawkabillies on accident while hatching eggs.
*using a different pot evolution item doesn't count.
My main issue is that the forms just feel like they look different because they can. While the Rotom forms vary wildly in their actual battle performance, I like them as alternates because they also do a neat job of showing off the Pokemon's natural flavor at the same time by hopping between machinery. Shellos and Gastrodon are purely aesthetic but it's a habitat thing that makes enough sense and is easily distinguished, same to Deerling/Sawsbuck.
I collect a bit in Pokemon at least and one reason I hate so much of the form spam is because a lot of it feels much more transparently like game mechanics being dressed up for form bloat. Toxtricity's difference is based on its nature, with the two forms having different reactions to confrontation... despite that already being the inherent concept of natures to begin with, and I don't get how that influences the Physical difference compared to something like Climate, Sex, an Evolution Item, or even something like Alcremie's different forms for sweets and mixing. This one probably bothers me the most because on top of an evolution factor that takes me out of the world (as is usually my Monster Collector mindset), the form has like 1 relevant difference between the two to the point I ask why even bother with it that move swap.
Alcremie is tolerable enough for me in concept, mostly annoyed that they did WAY too many of these things for a non-interchangeable Form like Furfrou had. Just have it evolve differently with another Held Sweet instead of making 70 variations and then giving up when you have the Shiny too.
Sinistea is a case of "I see the idea, but also this is dumb in a game." If the distinction is down to the pot given the different evolution, just make Sinistea evolve from one base form into different Polteageists with the respective Pots.
There's also a cynic in me who's annoyed at this form-spam picking up since they went to 3D. The bad cases come out feeling like a lazy way to give a Pokemon a collection gimmick and say "look we can retexture shit!" and bloating things. At least something like Pyroar has a basis I can recognize and gel with even as a strictly cosmetic difference, but Forms-for-Forms' sake just feels to Collection what IVs and EVs feel like to Competitive play: Something that turns non-players of that style away for looking tedious and unapproachable for little purpose.
I collect a bit in Pokemon at least and one reason I hate so much of the form spam is because a lot of it feels much more transparently like game mechanics being dressed up for form bloat. Toxtricity's difference is based on its nature, with the two forms having different reactions to confrontation... despite that already being the inherent concept of natures to begin with, and I don't get how that influences the Physical difference compared to something like Climate, Sex, an Evolution Item, or even something like Alcremie's different forms for sweets and mixing. This one probably bothers me the most because on top of an evolution factor that takes me out of the world (as is usually my Monster Collector mindset), the form has like 1 relevant difference between the two to the point I ask why even bother with it that move swap.
Alcremie is tolerable enough for me in concept, mostly annoyed that they did WAY too many of these things for a non-interchangeable Form like Furfrou had. Just have it evolve differently with another Held Sweet instead of making 70 variations and then giving up when you have the Shiny too.
Sinistea is a case of "I see the idea, but also this is dumb in a game." If the distinction is down to the pot given the different evolution, just make Sinistea evolve from one base form into different Polteageists with the respective Pots.
There's also a cynic in me who's annoyed at this form-spam picking up since they went to 3D. The bad cases come out feeling like a lazy way to give a Pokemon a collection gimmick and say "look we can retexture shit!" and bloating things. At least something like Pyroar has a basis I can recognize and gel with even as a strictly cosmetic difference, but Forms-for-Forms' sake just feels to Collection what IVs and EVs feel like to Competitive play: Something that turns non-players of that style away for looking tedious and unapproachable for little purpose.
Tera Blast being a special move when non-terastalized. Make the move a dead slot on physical attackers when non-tera'd, which is a shame since it would've been nice neutral coverage to have. Breloom, for example, would kinda like it vs resist to its stabs like D-Nite or Iron Moth to hit them with a moderately strong neutral attack when not Tera'd. Instead, its just completely useless against these guys since its coming off its crappy special attack.
I'm pretty sure Tera Blast always goes off the higher attacking stat, even when not Tera'd.
Nah, it doesn't. Only when Terastalized. Figured this out the hard way when I used it on an Iron Moth and it did no damage lol.
Source: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tera_Blast_(move)
The page doesnt' say that at all though.
OK I see it now thanks, I glanced by the "when terastallized" part
I've found I have less patience for aesthetic-only differences, as well as several other misc features, following gen 8 and Dexit. Instead of being able to accept different aspects for different people, I'm aware that something has to give. Obviously I would prefer if the parts I didn't use got cut instead of the parts I did use, so that sort of thing just comes off as a reason why I haven't found current games worth getting.
I just think you're cynical boss. I think there are issues with some of their approach to designs, but the idea of form bloat seems bizarre to me. Why do forms need to be special? They're just enriching a concept a bit, and they all come from an idea in line with the original pokemon. I wish more pokémon had forms! It's worldbuilding in a way we rarely get.
The design of forms seem much more made for you to pick your favorite than to collect them all (hi spinda), and even if you are a fan of collecting, they expect you to just collect the guys you like, not every single form they ever make. Disliking the concept because of participating in an unintended type of collection seems weird to me.
I wish we had more squawkability forms. I want a red one
The only one that really got ridiculous was Alcremie for me, boy was that a slog.
Oh I am so frustrated to learn this just now - then again, the completionist in me wouldn’t have been happy if I half assed it. The whole twirling to evolve mechanic would’ve been fine for me if it was any other normal evo, making use of an otherwise purely aesthetic (but fun) feature. But man, my thumb was sore after all those forms…. especially when I occasionally didn’t get some *just right*
Why is Oricorio-Electric always the first version available? It's not that this is a bad type, quite the opposite. Flying/Electric is an incredible defensive typing, so until Revelation Dance at 40, there's no reason to ever switch to another type. Even after 40, it's basically Pom-Pom unless you know you're walking into a fight where you need something else. Why make a mon with a gimmick the player should avoid touching all playthrough?
Because I'm 90% sure Oricorio's form wasn't switchable for most of Sun and Moon's development and it was just added later.
Also, unrelated to the above, why are Greninja's eyes always closed in SV outside of battle?
They aren’t closed, it’s just squinting to give it more of a frog-like look.
And Greninja has actually always been like this, it’s just that the only time you could have seen it “outside of battle” before now was in Pokémon-Amie/Refresh. (Summary screens before SV used the Pokémon’s in-battle pose.) But it’s eyes are squinted there. They’ve also been shown that way at times in the anime, and in Greninja’s concept art.
It's literally the same texture as when it sleeps.
I was watching im a Blissey's video on the competitive grind for perfect Pokemon, and here is a very good comment from the comment section:
" It'll forever frustrate me that the only games that had full Battle Frontiers were in generations where getting competitively viable Pokemon was a nightmare. "
" It'll forever frustrate me that the only games that had full Battle Frontiers were in generations where getting competitively viable Pokemon was a nightmare. "
Gonna have to say the issue here is that Greninja is depicted with "open" eyes in his official artwork. The Squinting eyes in battle would make sense when he has to be hyper focused on combat, but that doesn't appear to be what they were going for. On Bulbapedia, the images in which the eyes are drawn this way depict it in a more relaxed state or outright sleeping as noted, so I get the impression eyes "open" is battle mode and eyes "squinted" is chilled out. I've seen people squint hard enough to the point their eyes essentially look closed, probably the same effect but then no one would notice that minute a difference and they just used the same eye texture.
Really? Lt. Surge was not from Kanto?
He's explicitly a foreigner, yes. His title was The Lightning American originally, with dialog in the PWT iirc that implied he's probably from Unova the initial not-america setting.
I mean I guess if we want to split hairs he's probably, like, nationalized into being Kantonian but that's the gist.
I mean in a way it makes sense for Lt. Surge to be the one who they represent. Alola has a bunch of Kanto influences for nostalgia bait reasons, and it's sometimes said that immigrants can be the most devoted to their new country. In that sense, a guy who came to Kanto and liked it enough to settle in makes for a pretty solid export. Plus, as others have said, it's Hawaii which has a bunch of American influences, so the "Lightning American Unovan also makes sense."
Lt. Surge was referred to as American in RBY, back when the Pokemon regions were supposed to stand in for the corresponding parts of Japan, and there is an NPC at the PWT who speculates about him being from Unova. While the latter is not explicit confirmation, it does give the impression that Surge is a foreigner whom people do not presume to be from Poke-Japan/Kanto as they would most of the other Leaders, and LGPE rematch dialogue has him say
Though it is interesting to note that the anime depiction of the Gym doesn't really call back to Surge (or any existing Gym) compared to the game's more direct send-up.
Which more or less confirms he is not a Kanto born citizen at least, something they seem to retain even if they're less overt about American/Unovan origin or any specific place he came from.
Perhaps this was deliberate or ironic for the Gym reference. My theory is that Surge is from Alola and the Gym was borrowing from him as a naturalized Emigrant with a prominent reputation, especially since real life Hawaii is sort of a mid-point between the US and Japan/East Asia, militarily or culturally. Malie City is very Eastern-influenced, Johto in particular being referenced (Johto being a sister region to Kanto and one of the more overtly "Japanese" presenting regions of the original 4) a few times, so the city itself may be the inverse meeting: a Japanese cultural residence/settlement in a foreign region, featuring a Gym-tribute derived from a foreigner's established in Japan.
Though it is interesting to note that the anime depiction of the Gym doesn't really call back to Surge (or any existing Gym) compared to the game's more direct send-up.
When it’s dozing off in Picnic, yeah, but when it’s actually put to sleep in battle, its eyelids shut completely. Either way, the overall point is the same.