I guess Stealth Rock is enough, I just forgot how can't Cresselia learn these Rocks lol...but anyway, Cresselia is probably a better option to teams that aren't lackin' its Rocks and Mesprit is still viable
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Lockdown (Now Playable!)
- Thread starter Sugarbear
- Start date
Yes, definitely. That's why Mesprit is in C-, and Cresselia is in A+.
Also, Politoed and Ninetales almost definitely need to go up. For them to be ranked below Mega Abomasnow is just shameful, especially considering how Abomasnow takes up a mega slot and hail is just generally so bad. For the latter I can see competition from MChar-Y, but if they get rocks up Charizard is almost a liability post lockdown.
Politoed and Ninetales are the best weather (to Rain and Sun respectively) setters, they could be at least in B+ rank imo. They won't care for Taunt, Politoed have awesome bulky and Encore. Ninetales have Fire Blast and Solarbeam + Sun, definately hurts a lot, that's enough, they can switch in in the end of 6th turn, then the Rain or Sun will be almost guaranteed and won't even care so much about another weathers. Sun is a quite good due to turn Solarbeam into a spammable move and Fire Blast will be many powerful. About Rain, it will guarantee your Hurricanes and Blizzards and Water-type moves will hurt like a truck, and won't do a little passive damage to each user that isn't from one specific type.
I think Mega Abomasnow is ranked as highly as it is due to the fact that it's particularly useful on Trick Room. His ability to set hail is secondary to his role as a slow offensive powerhouse. That said, I do agree that Politoed and Ninetales should move up to B or B+.
OK, update coming
As per your suggestions, Politoed and Ninetales will be moved B+
Thundurus is going to A+ - can set and abuse rain, also has priority Taunt and Thunder Wave and a great movepool
Volcanion is going to B+ - good on rain, sun and grassy terrain
Chandelure is going to B - hits like a freight train in Sun, and can also counter set Trick Room
The issue with Mesprit is that between Mew and Cresselia it has virtually no niche. It is something of a hybrid between the two, but Mew and Cress both have reliable recovery so they can set up more effects more easily.
Some other Pokémon to discuss.
Mega Venusaur B/B+/A- - one of the best Grassy Terrain setters, and a good check to offensive Rain teams as well
Rhyperior - B / B+ - A great Pokémon to use in Trick Room due to its great physical bulk and Solid Rock means it doesn't fear priority that isn't Aqua Jet. Swords Dance coupled with STAB EdgeQuake makes it tough to stop in Trick Room, although it needs Trick Room to shine
Talonflame A- / B+ - Loves Sun teams, and while fast frail Pokémon normally struggle in this meta thanks to Gale Wings Brave Bird Talonflame isn't too bothered by Trick Room.
Serperior A- / B+ - One of the better Grassy Terrain setters, it also has Taunt to stop other slower leads setting up. Can set up Sunny Day as well, and still hits very hard after a Leaf Storm
Froslass B - A great Spikes lead due to its good Speed, Taunt, Thunder Wave and Cursed Body. It can also set up Rain
Also thanks to the people who voted for Lockdown, shame it didn't win but oh well.
As per your suggestions, Politoed and Ninetales will be moved B+
Thundurus is going to A+ - can set and abuse rain, also has priority Taunt and Thunder Wave and a great movepool
Volcanion is going to B+ - good on rain, sun and grassy terrain
Chandelure is going to B - hits like a freight train in Sun, and can also counter set Trick Room
The issue with Mesprit is that between Mew and Cresselia it has virtually no niche. It is something of a hybrid between the two, but Mew and Cress both have reliable recovery so they can set up more effects more easily.
Some other Pokémon to discuss.
Mega Venusaur B/B+/A- - one of the best Grassy Terrain setters, and a good check to offensive Rain teams as well
Rhyperior - B / B+ - A great Pokémon to use in Trick Room due to its great physical bulk and Solid Rock means it doesn't fear priority that isn't Aqua Jet. Swords Dance coupled with STAB EdgeQuake makes it tough to stop in Trick Room, although it needs Trick Room to shine
Talonflame A- / B+ - Loves Sun teams, and while fast frail Pokémon normally struggle in this meta thanks to Gale Wings Brave Bird Talonflame isn't too bothered by Trick Room.
Serperior A- / B+ - One of the better Grassy Terrain setters, it also has Taunt to stop other slower leads setting up. Can set up Sunny Day as well, and still hits very hard after a Leaf Storm
Froslass B - A great Spikes lead due to its good Speed, Taunt, Thunder Wave and Cursed Body. It can also set up Rain
Also thanks to the people who voted for Lockdown, shame it didn't win but oh well.
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Actually, Mesprit gets Imprison but Mew and Cresselia do not. So I'd say C or C+ since Imprison really is the ultimate trump card against opposing setters. I'd still vastly prefer Mew, but there looks to be enough of a niche for this guy to have his own place.
However, I'd say this is irrelevant. Suicide setters have serious 4MSS in this meta, and with only 6 turns to get the job done spending a turn on recovery isn't in the cards. These are pokemon are liabilities after lockdown, you don't want to waste precious moveslots keeping them healthy.
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Taunt > Imprison IMO. Imprison only stops them using the moves you know, and the effects fade if the user switches out. Taunt lasts longer, and stops them setting up anything. Imprison isn't blocked by Magic Bounce which is something I guess. I think Mesprit is fine in C-, maybe C but C+ is going too far.
I think that's a gross oversimplification. Imprison is awesome because it gets around the very counter-measures that people use to beat Taunt in the first place. Literally everything you'd use to prepare for Taunt is useless (even counter-productive) against Imprison. I also don't know what you mean about Taunt lasting longer. Imprison lasts until the user switches out, so it can last longer than Taunt. It's still not perfect; phasers can get rid of you and other forms of setup can get in under your skin, but it's a cool move that gets to shine in this meta due to the rampant over-preparation for turns 1-6.
It's solidly slower, meaning mew can't stop rocks w/o taunt (and it get mcoat to stop that) while also being able to set up your weather after they do on turn 6, allowing you to get yours up for good.
Venusaur-Mega is an awesome Terrain setter, and good against Water types, A- thanks to Thick Fat and good bulk;
Talonflame to B+, is one of the best naturally Fast Offensive Pokémon thanks to Gale Wings to avoid Speed Control;
Rhyperior in Trick Room is solid, seems a good to B;
Serperior is a good Grassy Terrain and deals many damage thanks to Contrary + Leaf Storm, B+ imo;
Frosslass...well, is a good Taunter, Spiker and have Thunder Wave, but aside of this, isn't a great niche, but enough to B I think.
OK, viability rankings update:
Venusaur-Mega: A-
Talonflame: B+
Rhyperior: B
Serperior: B+
Froslass: B-
Also, here's a Lockdown Analysis of Mega Camerupt. If any of you would like to share an analysis, go right ahead. You can use bullet point form if you wish. All I request is that you use Showdown's export feature to list the sets.
Venusaur-Mega: A-
Talonflame: B+
Rhyperior: B
Serperior: B+
Froslass: B-
Also, here's a Lockdown Analysis of Mega Camerupt. If any of you would like to share an analysis, go right ahead. You can use bullet point form if you wish. All I request is that you use Showdown's export feature to list the sets.
Mega Camerupt is the best mega to use on Trick Room teams. The lowest Speed of all fully evolved Pokémon combined with great Special Attack and Sheer Force make it extremely threatening. Its typing gives it useful Steel, Fairy and Fire resistances with an Electric immunity, and it has pretty solid bulk too. While Mega Camerupt is happiest in Trick Room, it can also work well on a variety of team archetypes, like Sun, Sandstorm and even Grassy Terrain.
That said, the lava camel still has its faults. If you can't get Trick Room set up, it really struggles, and Mega Camerupt struggles with Rain teams. But despite its flaws, if you can provide Camerupt with the minimal support it needs it's sure to put in the work for you.
Special Attacker
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def / 1 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Toxic / Solar Beam
Moves
Fire Blast is Camerupt's nuke, with Sheer Force boosting its power to huge levels. Earth Power is the reliable STAB, hitting the Rock-types and opposing Fire-types that resist Fire Blast. Ancient Power OHKOes Charizard-Y and Talonflame. Hidden Power Ice OHKOes Garchomp, while Toxic can be used to cripple walls this set can't muscle through like Poygon2. If you have Sun support, Solar Beam should be used in the last slot to OHKO Slowbro and hit other bulky Water-types hard.
Set Details
248 HP EVs give Camerupt solid bulk, with Special Attack maximised as most of this set's moves are Special. The rest is in Defence to help against physical priority moves. A Quiet Nature ensures you will be as slow as possible, and therefore as fast as possible in Trick Room. If you're running this set outside Trick Room, run a spread of 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe with a Modest Nature - this lets Mega Camerupt outrun Relaxed Quagsire and 2HKO it on the switch with Earth Power. Solid Rock is Camerupt's best pre mega ability.
Usage Tips
Mega Evolve as soon as you can, as the extra power and bulk are usually more beneficial than the extra Speed. This set can be played as either a late game cleaner or an early to mid game wallbreaker. Bring Camerupt in on Pokémon that can't do much back to it, like Thundurus and Charizard-Y, and fire off powerful attacks. Generally Fire Blast will be your go to move, as it hits much harder than anything else Camerupt has.
Team Options
Trick Room setters are very helpful for this set. Whimsicott can set up Trick Room and Sun for Camerupt, and the 2 get good synergy: Whimsicott resists the Ground and Water moves Camerupt is weak to, while Camerupt resists the Steel, Fire and Poison type moves Whimsicott is weak to. Cresselia can set up Trick Room, Sun and even Gravity, all of which Camerupt can take advantage of. It can also use Lunar Dance to give it a second shot at sweeping. Other Pokémon that can abuse Trick Room like Conkeldurr and Escavalier make good teammates - they can also smash through Chansey.
Other Options
Camerupt can set up Sun, Sandstorm and Stealth Rock - however, it would rather have a teammate do it. Rock Slide can be used, but it doesn't OHKO anything Ancient Power doesn't. Yawn and Roar could be used as phasing options. Will-O-Wisp can be used to cripple physical attackers, although Toxic is generally better on Mega Camerupt.
Checks and Counters
Chansey - Nothing Camerupt has can 2HKO Chansey, while it can cure itself of Toxic with Natural Cure
Water types - Defensive Water types can normally handle one Earth Power and OHKO back with their X4 super effective STABs. Azumarill and Crawdaunt can revenge kill Camerupt in Trick Room with their STAB Aqua Jets. However, if it has Sun Support Solar Beam will do massive damage.
Special Walls - Special walls like Specially Defensive Cresselia can take anything Cmaerupt has and stall it out with Toxic. However, Toxic will put them all on a timer if they lack Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Refresh
That said, the lava camel still has its faults. If you can't get Trick Room set up, it really struggles, and Mega Camerupt struggles with Rain teams. But despite its flaws, if you can provide Camerupt with the minimal support it needs it's sure to put in the work for you.
Special Attacker
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def / 1 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Toxic / Solar Beam
Moves
Fire Blast is Camerupt's nuke, with Sheer Force boosting its power to huge levels. Earth Power is the reliable STAB, hitting the Rock-types and opposing Fire-types that resist Fire Blast. Ancient Power OHKOes Charizard-Y and Talonflame. Hidden Power Ice OHKOes Garchomp, while Toxic can be used to cripple walls this set can't muscle through like Poygon2. If you have Sun support, Solar Beam should be used in the last slot to OHKO Slowbro and hit other bulky Water-types hard.
Set Details
248 HP EVs give Camerupt solid bulk, with Special Attack maximised as most of this set's moves are Special. The rest is in Defence to help against physical priority moves. A Quiet Nature ensures you will be as slow as possible, and therefore as fast as possible in Trick Room. If you're running this set outside Trick Room, run a spread of 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe with a Modest Nature - this lets Mega Camerupt outrun Relaxed Quagsire and 2HKO it on the switch with Earth Power. Solid Rock is Camerupt's best pre mega ability.
Usage Tips
Mega Evolve as soon as you can, as the extra power and bulk are usually more beneficial than the extra Speed. This set can be played as either a late game cleaner or an early to mid game wallbreaker. Bring Camerupt in on Pokémon that can't do much back to it, like Thundurus and Charizard-Y, and fire off powerful attacks. Generally Fire Blast will be your go to move, as it hits much harder than anything else Camerupt has.
Team Options
Trick Room setters are very helpful for this set. Whimsicott can set up Trick Room and Sun for Camerupt, and the 2 get good synergy: Whimsicott resists the Ground and Water moves Camerupt is weak to, while Camerupt resists the Steel, Fire and Poison type moves Whimsicott is weak to. Cresselia can set up Trick Room, Sun and even Gravity, all of which Camerupt can take advantage of. It can also use Lunar Dance to give it a second shot at sweeping. Other Pokémon that can abuse Trick Room like Conkeldurr and Escavalier make good teammates - they can also smash through Chansey.
Other Options
Camerupt can set up Sun, Sandstorm and Stealth Rock - however, it would rather have a teammate do it. Rock Slide can be used, but it doesn't OHKO anything Ancient Power doesn't. Yawn and Roar could be used as phasing options. Will-O-Wisp can be used to cripple physical attackers, although Toxic is generally better on Mega Camerupt.
Checks and Counters
Chansey - Nothing Camerupt has can 2HKO Chansey, while it can cure itself of Toxic with Natural Cure
Water types - Defensive Water types can normally handle one Earth Power and OHKO back with their X4 super effective STABs. Azumarill and Crawdaunt can revenge kill Camerupt in Trick Room with their STAB Aqua Jets. However, if it has Sun Support Solar Beam will do massive damage.
Special Walls - Special walls like Specially Defensive Cresselia can take anything Cmaerupt has and stall it out with Toxic. However, Toxic will put them all on a timer if they lack Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Refresh
Why isn't Ferrothorn ranked? It is the slowest viable user of Spikes and the second slowest even borderline viable Stealth Rock user, allowing it to lay after Defog is used (which is useful because of Lockdown) to ensure at least one layer is up after the lockdown turn. In addition, its defensive typing and general splashability on BO is a big draw, and it also acts as a really nice TR check on rain teams (with the slowest viable Gyro Ball in the meta and access to Grass-type coverage to deal with opposing Water-types which try to take advantage of the rain) which is huge utility in general, and given how good rain is it has a huge advantage of being one of the most consistent stops to it. Its ability to annoy/heal itself and its teammates with Leech Seed, have lots of utility, blanket check a load of stuff and pressure physical attackers with its immense bulk and access to Iron Barbs is more than enough to warrant a high ranking imho (I'm thinking something like A- or B+; it belongs in the same rank as Forretress at the lowest).
Speaking of rain, Jellicent is viable for two reasons:
I have no preference for Jelly's position, just thought I'd bring it up.
Speaking of rain, Jellicent is viable for two reasons:
- Counters Keldeo, Volcanion and a few other dangerous Pokemon while blanket checking a buttload due to its disgusting bulk
- It is extremely helpful for balanced and defensive teams in the rain matchup due to Water Absorb
I have no preference for Jelly's position, just thought I'd bring it up.
While I agree with Ferrothorn's ranking, I don't think Spikes are a viable move for him. Removing hazards is easier than setting them in the meta, and with only 6 turns before lockdown it's basically impossible to wear down an opponent's defogger sufficiently to prevent it from doing its job. Unless you have lots of team support to keep those hazards up it's unwise to spend more than one turn laying them. I think Froslass is the only viable spikes setter in the meta, having a sufficiently fast Taunt to stop many defoggers while also spinblocking... and even then it's prevented from doing its job by Magic Bounce and can potentially have its work undone by Mental Herb Defoggers so its current B- rank is probably a bit generous if anything. Ferrothorn is still very good, though; one of those pokemon that you can slap Stealth Rock on and still expect it to pull its weight with its three other moveslots after lockdown.
Speaking of which, anyone got any ideas on how to make spikes stacking work in this meta? It's harder to set, but just as easy to remove as other field conditions, and as a result needs more team support. There is no reasonable way you're going to wear down an opposing defogger/spinner/bouncer in only 6 turns so stopping a last-turn hazard removal is much easier said than done. The potential reward looks very good, but the number of threats you need to account for to make it work (and the level of team support that entails) looks completely unmanageable. I can see it being very powerful if you're specifically counter-teaming someone who is vulnerable to it, but you'll basically auto-lose if you encounter a threat that has a good matchup against your setters...
Speaking of which, anyone got any ideas on how to make spikes stacking work in this meta? It's harder to set, but just as easy to remove as other field conditions, and as a result needs more team support. There is no reasonable way you're going to wear down an opposing defogger/spinner/bouncer in only 6 turns so stopping a last-turn hazard removal is much easier said than done. The potential reward looks very good, but the number of threats you need to account for to make it work (and the level of team support that entails) looks completely unmanageable. I can see it being very powerful if you're specifically counter-teaming someone who is vulnerable to it, but you'll basically auto-lose if you encounter a threat that has a good matchup against your setters...
OK, Lockdown's been nominated for OMotM (thank you to whoever did that) let's try to make it win people! I know we're going up against the titans that are Inheritance and Sketchmons, but I feel lucky!
Also, Ferrothorn's now A-, Jellicent is in B.
Also, Ferrothorn's now A-, Jellicent is in B.
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Double post yay! Lockdown's been nominated for OMotM (thanks to whoever did that), so let's get some discussion going! I'm going to make a roles compendium. If you feel I missed any Pokémon, please let me know. I won't be listing every Pokemon that can do a certain thing, just the more viable ones. If anyone would like to chip in you're more than welcome.
Trick Room Setters / Counter setters
(XL Forme)
Weather Setters
Sun
Rain
Trick Room Setters / Counter setters
Weather Setters
Sun
Drought:
Sunny Day:
(XL Forme)
Sunny Day:
Rain
Drizzle:
Rain Dance:
Rain Dance:
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This meta is getting a huge buff in SuMo, with great new abilities like Surge Surfer and Electric Surge I actually hope that this doesn't win OMotM til after SuMo so that I can see how everything will play out in the ladder.
(I really wanna use electric terrain and rain together)
(I really wanna use electric terrain and rain together)
Oh well, thanks to the people who voted for this to be OM. Shame it never won, but oh well. SuMo should give Lockdown a good buff - as lost heros said we've got Tapu Koko and Raichu-A making Electric Terrain teams much more threatening, but Bruxish could also be a great Trick Room setter if it learns the move (many Psychic types can) due to Dazzling giving it a priority immunity. Sandslash-A could be interesting too, as it's said to be slower than standard Sandslash and it gets STAB Gyro Ball and Swords Dance. In fact Hail itself could be more threatening too. Staying optimistic.
Update: This meta is now playable on the ROM server. Thank you ukerab
Gen 7 now have
Slush Rush and two new Snow Warning fully-evolved Pokémon (Alolan Ninetales and Vanilluxe, though I think the last won't be useful)
Abilities to set all Terrains and Surge Surfer
A new Sand Stream though I don't think Gigalith will ever be useful
But this meta will be better when playable in Gen 7, now Terrains and Hail are buffed.
Slush Rush and two new Snow Warning fully-evolved Pokémon (Alolan Ninetales and Vanilluxe, though I think the last won't be useful)
Abilities to set all Terrains and Surge Surfer
A new Sand Stream though I don't think Gigalith will ever be useful
But this meta will be better when playable in Gen 7, now Terrains and Hail are buffed.
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Agreed, going to re submit when the submissions are open again