Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[Kejmur]

So, i took myself 2 days from this discuession and we have what? 20+ more pages than friday? Welp, getting straght into the point:

Sticky Web: broken move, give the offensive metagame im assuming there will be, any pokemon with the ability of using this move might get usage just for that sole reason: lowering all of the opposing offensive pokes Speed stat is ridicoulus, it basically saves you from any possible sweep, not to mention the horrible time offensive teams will have spinning this shit considering starmie is the standard premier spinner.

Mega-Lucario: welp, i found really funny how a lot of people tried to argue Mega Luke will ever be running Ice Punch when a +2 Adaptability CC prolly does 70+ to its standard ''counters'', aka Gliscor and Lando T (dont quote me on this tho) minor prior damage and welp, swept if thats your only answer. I can only think of Aegislash as a reliable counter... and it becomes a mind game between Kings Shield or not, if anybody seriously considers that a pokemon that can 6-0 entire teams given a single turn of set up and a simple prediction isnt broken... wtf am i talking about? this thing has Ekiller arceus+ levels of sweeping.

Most other megas have similar traits, incapability to be switched into except by an extremely sparse group, simple predictions costing games, etc.

Simple math prove it. There are things which still counter MegaLucario and remember that he can't hold item, so he looses some good amount of power without Life Orb (difference in power between Life Orb Lucario and MegaLucario isn't as huge as people make it and on moves which don't have Adaptability Life Orb Lucario outdamage MegaLucario). Of course he can be scary once you let him set-up, but you may say the same about SD Garchomp, DD Salamence, DD Dragonite, etc. He loves increased speed, but there are still many scarfers which outspeed him and handle his priority nicely (Scarf Jirachi for example, Scarf Heatran, Scarf Keldeo, etc.) or bulkier priority users or those which resist Bullet Punch (Mach Punch Infernape, Mach Punch Conkeldurr, Talonflame, CB Scizor, Azumarill, etc.). Offense will be able to handle him as his speed is good, but not something offense can't handle. And his bulk is pitiful, so he's easy to revenge kill (and in some situations finding this free turn may be really hard to Swords Dance). And he has serious 4MMS syndrome - He would like to have all ES/Bulletpunch/Ice Punch/Crunch/Stone Edge/Close Combat/Iron Head, but he can't, so something will always wall him.

Nidoqueen (survive even +2 Ice Punch), Weezing, Intimidate Defensive Gyarados (unless you have Stone Edge), Slowbro (without Crunch), Jellicent (Without Crunch), Gliscor (without Ice Punch), Landorus-I (without Ice Punch), MegaVenusaur (without Ice Punch), Aegislash, Intimidate Granbull (takes +1 Bullet Punch and KO back with Superpower), etc. etc.

I posted some calcs earlier on, here they are:

Slowbro 100% walls MegaLucario with Ice Punch. There's totally nothing he can do to beat Slowbro 1on1 with it.

Nidoqueen beats both versions, but she needs to be healthy to take +2 Ice Punch. With Jolly it hits:

72.92%-85.94%

With Adamant:

79.69%- 94.27%

2,56% chance to OHKO with SR up, but I think Lucario must use Jolly Nature to avoid being outspeeded by stuff like Keldeo or Infernape, which resist his priority Bullet Punch.

Looking further, Intimidate Defensive Gyarados also is great pick against MegaLucario.

+2 Ice Punch Adamant

30.96%-36.55%

+2 Crunch Adamant

32.99%-39.09%

+2 Close Combat Adamant

37.06%-43.65%

While Waterfall hits -1 Lucario for...

91.10%-107.83%

Honestly what I'm MUCH MORE worried about his wallbreaker sets, as his mixed stats are beastly. IMO this is what stall may despise as hell, not Swords Dance set as there are Pokemon which still 100% wall him. As I said - don't look at his stats and say 'OH AH BROKEN GGGG', because he can't use ANY item which increases his damage and while his base speed is good, it's still not enough against really offensive teams (and those will sure as hell get 1-2 revenge killers which can take his priority). Analyze it calmly and you'll agree with this. BTW accidently I gave you like, even though I disagree, lol.

The power-creep does look pretty bad when you consider the mega-evolutions, though. It's not the concept itself I have a problem with, it's that all but maybe 3 are designed for the sole purpose of being sweepers/wall breakers, and it will make building a stall team almost impossible. I would personally like to see them all restricted to Ubers right at the start, with testing then done on a case-by-case basis to see which ones are okay for OU.

Also, Avalugg would be awesome if permanent hail still existed. Leftovers + Ice Body + Recover = best Toxic staller ever.

Honestly I would rather see some Uber walls also tested here. With increased power creep why not allow something like Giratina (especially Giratina, as her lack of reliable recovery hurts and weaknesses to Dark/Dragon/Ghost types which are common in OU doesn't help) or Deoxys-D get their chance to play ? If some new defensive threats end up balancing this metagame, then why not give them a chance ? BTW from what I know Ubers metagame doesn't exist yet and everything (unless Smogon stuff decides to ban some stuff at start) is playable. IMO some of those should get a chance, but I guess that's me.

 

[Dark Pulse]

IMO, sticky web just makes Aegislash as a slow/bulky sweeper even move Viable - he doesnt care about outspeeding if hes gonna thwack you with a 150 base, potentially SD-boosted Iron Head/Sacred Sword/Night Slash - and if hes slower, hes never going to be vulnerable - just king's shield next turn. Who cares if they predict it? Unless theyre an SD booster, which you can just hit them if you expect it, then the turn wasted is not gonna phase you at all (oh no, they switched! I'll just hit the switchin with my dark/fighting almost unresisted moves)
to me, shadow sneak as its only physical ghost move is an annoyance (even something with 50 base power would make it more worthwhile than night slash) but I don't see how the priority is a good thing at all. If you leave them with 1% hp, you get KO'd with your now brittle 50 base defenses

 

[sidakarya]

That bit on there being very little to freshen up the meta was the sole reason I chose to ask about the new OU list. I was wondering if Fairies would do anything about the OU meta having been ruled by Dragons. I was also wondering if there'd be any additions or changes that would make Heatran a tad easier to counter, especially since it (at least to me) seemed to rely on some sort of plan where you had only a chance of countering him and you just had to cross your fingers and hope to a deity of choice that it worked lest you nerf the whole match for yourself.

If I'm not mistaken, we still don't have a confirmed list of all fairy retcons. I still can't find a confirmation or refutation anywhere about Mismagius, Blissey, the Lake Spirits and Cresselia (Milotic was confirmed as still pure Water just a few pages ago, sadly).

The power-creep does look pretty bad when you consider the mega-evolutions, though. It's not the concept itself I have a problem with, it's that all but maybe 3 are designed for the sole purpose of being sweepers/wall breakers, and it will make building a stall team almost impossible. I would personally like to see them all restricted to Ubers right at the start, with testing then done on a case-by-case basis to see which ones are okay for OU.

Also, Avalugg would be awesome if permanent hail still existed. Leftovers + Ice Body + Recover = best Toxic staller ever.

I do agree that while Mega-evolutions weren't a bad concept, the already powerful Pokemon really had no business having them. The ones that stand out to me as really hard to manage are M-Lucario, M-Blaziken and M-Gengar. M-Lucario having the most ridiculous mixed offensive stats outside Ubers, M-Blaziken having everything that made regular Blaziken broken and Baton Pass, and M-Gengar will obviously not be welcome in OU for a long time. Things like M-Houndoom and M-Manectric though, don't seem that OP by OU standards, and arguably a few megas are worse than their regular forms (hi M-Aerodactyl and M-Scizor).

 

[Pombo]

Sticky Web:
We have 2 possible scenarios for this move's distribution:
1- lots of mons learn it (just like SR)
2- few pokemon learn it (like electroweb or tspikes)
In the first scenario, even though this hazard will have effects potentially more devastating than other hazards, there are 2 (and not only 1) way to counter it.
The first is the obvious rapid spin. The second? Stick Web itself. Assuming the distribution is wide, there will be no reason not to carry this move in your own team. And deploying it means the opponent's Sticky Web is neutralized.
In the second scenario, the move wont be THAT troublesome. I dont think Sticky Web is enough reason to put an Ariados in your HO team.

 

[doughboy]

I can already see at least one good user of sticky web: Forretress. The thing gets every entry hazard already and fits the flavor as a Bug-type.

 

[CelestialRibbon]

If I'm not mistaken, we still don't have a confirmed list of all fairy retcons. I still can't find a confirmation or refutation anywhere about Mismagius, Blissey, the Lake Spirits and Cresselia (Milotic was confirmed as still pure Water just a few pages ago, sadly).

My only response to that is a highly petulant "bah."

 

[sidakarya]

My only response to that is a highly petulant "bah."

...

Because of?

Milotic? I actually hoped it would be Water/Fairy too. Oh well...

 

[Kejmur]

Sticky Web:
We have 2 possible scenarios for this move's distribution:
1- lots of mons learn it (just like SR)
2- few pokemon learn it (like electroweb or tspikes)
In the first scenario, even though this hazard will have effects potentially more devastating than other hazards, there are 2 (and not only 1) way to counter it.
The first is the obvious rapid spin. The second? Stick Web itself. Assuming the distribution is wide, there will be no reason not to carry this move in your own team. And deploying it means the opponent's Sticky Web is neutralized.
In the second scenario, the move wont be THAT troublesome. I dont think Sticky Web is enough reason to put an Ariados in your HO team.

My best guess here that only Galvantula and Ariados get it this time. Why ? Because Electroweb, which is another move based on spider web, in first two games Black & White was available only for them (and of course Smeargle). My bet is that GameFreak will introduce tutor for this move in possible Pokemon Z or something game. MAYBE Butterfree will get it as well, as Caterpie also produces some sort of webs, which would also make sense.

Maybe, but BIG maybe move will be learned by most Bug types, which also would make kind of sense, as it's a bug type hazard. Sticky Web Forretress would be awesome, on defensive Scizor sets as well. If it gets any wider distribution, then IMO only on all bug types. The way it works and how it is based on webs make it really unlikely on Pokemon which don't use those (most of them).

Also you should add Magic Bounce users, although switching in with Espeon or MegaAbsol against Bug types is really risky, taking into account how they are weak to Bug types (so Xatu sounds as the only one somewhat reliable right now).

 

[CelestialRibbon]

...

Because of?

Part of me is worried that the Fairy type isn't going to mean much for the OU meta. Then again, I doubt I'm up-to-date on all the info since new stuff is pouring out left and right.

 

[sidakarya]

Part of me is worried that the Fairy type isn't going to mean much for the OU meta. Then again, I doubt I'm up-to-date on all the info.

Togekiss, Mismagius and the Lake Spirits alone would make the Fairy-type quite relevant IMO. Togekiss itself is forcing a lot of dragons to change up their movesets just to cover it (getting new-found 4-slot move syndrome in the process...)

And that's not even getting into the potential stalling horror that is Fairy-type Blissey.

 

[Soda]

I'm 76.3% sure Galvantula and Ariados won't be the only Sticky Web users, however it might be limited. It's possible only mons that learn String Shot will get it. In such a case, Volcarona and Galvantula will be the only 'good' users of it. Galvantula is guaranteed to learn it though, and it has high speed and decent everything else, so it will have some presence in the metagame no matter what.

We likely won't know if Cresselia is Fairy or Fairy/Psychic (Please be mono-fairy) until December, possibly the same for Blissey. Here's hoping!

 

[Spenstar]

you can test retconned fairies with friend safari, right? Make sure you have a bunch of friends with the fairy type and see what comes up. That's how we discovered Togepi

 

[CelestialRibbon]

Togekiss, Mismagius and the Lake Spiriots alone would make the Fairy-type quite relevant IMO. Togekiss itself is forcing a lot of dragons to change up their movesets just to cover it (getting new-found 4-slot move syndrome in the process...)

And that's not even getting into the potential stalling horror that is Fairy-type Blissey.

...I almost entirely forgot that Togekiss existed. Yes, that would change things... Kinda looking forward to being amused by all the 4-slot move syndrome occurrences that are bound to happen.

 

[R_N]

you can test retconned fairies with friend safari, right? Make sure you have a bunch of friends with the fairy type and see what comes up. That's how we discovered Togepi

Doing this won't be able to test for the lake trio and cresselia, though. I don't think we'll know about those until december.

 

[sharazisspecial]

Has anyone done some furflou calculation/testing. How much "free" defense does it get? Does it half the damage after iv/evs or before?

 

[Senzura]

Has anyone done some furflou calculation/testing. How much "free" defense does it get? Does it half the damage after iv/evs or before?

From the testing I've done, it halves damage after all calculations

 

[Lord Raiden]

Mega evolutions were a terrible idea.

I predicted that they would be insanely overpowered in the orange islands speculation thread, and everybody shouted me down. Now look at what we have.

They haven't really had a chance to "do their worst" in any kind of controlled tournament setting, but the stats have been calculated, and there's not really much else to say. On top of that, most of the pokemon that have mega evolutions didn't need them at all, and those who will benefit from their mega evolutions could have used a regular evolution (or a branching/horizontal evolution), and only needed a little bit more added to their base stats so that they could compete with their higher-BST colleagues.

In addition, mega evolutions aren't really evolutions. They're glorified form changes. Sky Shaymin isn't called Mega Shaymin, and Origin Giratina isn't Mega Giratina. I'll be even angrier about them if it turns out that we only got 70 new pokemon because the mega evolutions were counted as "new pokemon".

I'll admit that I really like how some of the mega evolutions look, but you shouldn't add some feature to a game like Pokemon just because it looks cool. I'll be shocked if many of the mega evolutions aren't banned or moved to Ubers in a year or so.

 

[Soda]

What do you mean now look at what we have? Lmao, we have no semblance of a metagame yet. Don't be ridiculous. You can only have 1 Mega Evolution per team and they can't hold items. That's huge. The only non-legend Megas that might make ubers are Blaziken and Gengar. I don't see how that's such a big deal since you can still use regular Gengar. Most Megas are only vaguely better than their regular forms with items, if that. Some seem really good, no biggie though.

Megas are lovely.

 

[GreatEclipse]

Mega evolutions were a terrible idea.

I predicted that they would be insanely overpowered in the orange islands speculation thread, and everybody shouted me down. Now look at what we have.

They haven't really had a chance to "do their worst" in any kind of controlled tournament setting, but the stats have been calculated, and there's not really much else to say. On top of that, most of the pokemon that have mega evolutions didn't need them at all, and those who will benefit from their mega evolutions could have used a regular evolution (or a branching/horizontal evolution), and only needed a little bit more added to their base stats so that they could compete with their higher-BST colleagues.

In addition, mega evolutions aren't really evolutions. They're glorified form changes. Sky Shaymin isn't called Mega Shaymin, and Origin Giratina isn't Mega Giratina. I'll be even angrier about them if it turns out that we only got 70 new pokemon because the mega evolutions were counted as "new pokemon".

I'll admit that I really like how some of the mega evolutions look, but you shouldn't add some feature to a game like Pokemon just because it looks cool. I'll be shocked if many of the mega evolutions aren't banned or moved to Ubers in a year or so.

With you completely, except I also think most look much worse compared to the pre-evolves. "Overdesigned" is the perfect word for almost all of them.

Also, many have pointed out that power-wise, Megas tend not to be much better than the original forms without Choice Band/Specs or Life Orb, but forget that the drawbacks of those items were really important from keeping the users of them from completely overwhelming balanced and defensive teams.

 

[sidakarya]

With you completely, except I also think most look much worse compared to the pre-evolves. "Overdesigned" is the perfect word for almost all of them.

Also, many have pointed out that power-wise, Megas tend not to be much better than the original forms without Choice Band/Specs or Life Orb, but forget that the drawbacks of those items were really important from keeping the users of them from completely overwhelming balanced and defensive teams.

Actually, many of them are seemingly worse than their Choice Band / Life Orb equivalents. M-Garchomp, for example, which has 92 speed and needs a Sandstreamer holding a rock (and missing out on Leftovers, Choice Band etc.) to be a powerful wall-breaker.

 

[Senzura]

but the stats have been calculated,

Not really related to your post but I still feel like a gun is being jumped by basing mega stats on previous gen's base stats. Like I said earlier, if BP of moves are being changed, whats so strange about pokemon's BSTs being changed. Are we sure megas even HAVE base stats, and thats its not some multiplier of the original stats or something else silly?

 

[R_N]

I feel slightly altering moves is on a whole other level than straight up altering BSTs of pre-existing pokemon????

 

[Pombo]

Mega evolutions were a terrible idea.

I predicted that they would be insanely overpowered in the orange islands speculation thread, and everybody shouted me down. Now look at what we have.

They haven't really had a chance to "do their worst" in any kind of controlled tournament setting, but the stats have been calculated, and there's not really much else to say. On top of that, most of the pokemon that have mega evolutions didn't need them at all, and those who will benefit from their mega evolutions could have used a regular evolution (or a branching/horizontal evolution), and only needed a little bit more added to their base stats so that they could compete with their higher-BST colleagues.

In addition, mega evolutions aren't really evolutions. They're glorified form changes. Sky Shaymin isn't called Mega Shaymin, and Origin Giratina isn't Mega Giratina. I'll be even angrier about them if it turns out that we only got 70 new pokemon because the mega evolutions were counted as "new pokemon".

I'll admit that I really like how some of the mega evolutions look, but you shouldn't add some feature to a game like Pokemon just because it looks cool. I'll be shocked if many of the mega evolutions aren't banned or moved to Ubers in a year or so.

1- pokemon is a game. Games must sell. Childrens must want to have the game. I'm sorry for you if you think people produce games fillantropically (<- idk how to spell that) and that all they want is a perfect balance.
2- Giratina-O/Shaymin-S dont have +100 BST over their original formes.
3-I dont think anyone cares if you are angry or not.

 

[Soda]

I agree, old Pokemon BST shouldn't be touched. 90% of the time old moves are only slightly altered. The only appealing aspect of altering old Pokemon's BST is majorly changing Pokemon like giving Dodrio 200 ATK or something, you generally need to be drastic in your changes and that just doesn't seem necessary in my opinion. Goes too far. Gamefreak knows how to make a crappy pokemon viable if they'd really like to (I'm looking at you Sableye), give it really good moves or a good ability. Also, not every Pokemon can be OU! We do need some variety lol.

I really just need to know if Banette or Sableye get Prankster Topsy-Turvy. That genuinely spells ruin for every Dragon Dancer, Sword Dancer, Nasty Plotter, Calm Minder, etc. Gyarados would no longer be able to get a few Dragon Dances and sweep through 5 Pokemon like its nothing. That +2 Mega Lucario suddenly becomes -2 Atk and can't do anything about it. Etc.

 

[Gerard]

• Venom Drench [Poison] : It lowers the Atk, SAtk and Spe of the inflicted Pokemon.
  Considering how Poison got a buff this Generation with the introduction of Fairy-Type Pokemon, Venom Drench just might find itself being used with some regularity. Now the biggest downside is that Steel Pokemon won't give two f_cks about this move and the issue only compounds considering how popular Steel will continue to be. Still Venom Drench is an effective move that can neuter a ton of offensive Pokemon and allow the various Kalos Tanks to have a chance at hunkering down HO Pokemon+Teams

Honestly I rather use WoW (now more than ever with that 85 acc boost) than this move since the only way to use this move effectively is with a fast/prankster pokemon in a Toxic Spikes team, and I just think something like Will-o-Wisp would accomplish the same against the same targets, against special attackers it could be great but they have to be neither steel nor poison type nor flaying type, must be grounded so no levitate (goodbye Lat@s & hydreigon) and they must be slower than your Venom Drench user (try outspending Starmie, Alakazam & Gengar without prankster while maintaining your bulk) and their moves have been already been nerfed so right from the bat they will be weaker anyway, tbh I don't think is worth all the trouble.