Low Ubers

[COalex]

At the same time giving a 00ber one of the most accurate sleep moves and automatic passive damage isn't exactly most peoples idea of fair. Heck just look at the 00bers, Darkrai is the only one to get a sleep move period and still retains all the stats and movepool of a 00ber.

Well, if my calculations are right, then Darkrai only has 600 BST, hardly the "stats of an uber". The "movepool of an uber" is pretty debatable too; Darkrai's best stab is 80 BP, much less fearsome than most ubers, hell, much less fearsome than some OUs, too. His trademark sleep move, Dark Void, is completely outclassed by Breloom's Spore, and the only good moves he has to use with that great Special Attack are Dark Pulse, Spacial Rend, Focus Blast, Psychic, Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt.

For fun, let's compare Darkrai to Gengar. Darkrai has a base Special Attack that's 5 higher, and 15 more Speed. His sleeping move is 10% more accurate, and her gets Spacial Rend, for what it's worth. Gengar, on the other hand, swaps the Fighting weak for a Fighting immunity, the Psychic immunity for a Normal immunity, and gets a Ground immunity via Levitate instead of the situational Bad Dreams. Darkrai's only saving grace is really his lack of a Pursuit weakness.

For the record, if Darkrai tries to sweep instead of sleep, Azelf has an almost identical movepool but trades 10 Speed and Special Attack for Levitate, Nasty Plot, Flamethrower, and Explosion. Ouch.

I'm not saying that Darkrai isn't amazing, don't get me wrong. But if he was tested in OU, I think people might realize that he's nothing that we haven't seen before. Maybe.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think the sleep plus the speed is what gets people going. Try to remember a few things:

-1 v. 1 Breloom defeats everything slower than it (sleep clause + switching mitigates this a bit). Thank god it's fairly slow

-Speed is not like attack. There is no difference between being outsped by 90 points or by 1 point. If you are outsped, you are outsped. Period. So the difference between gengar or azelf and Darkrai in OU is huge. Just as the measly 2 point difference between Salamence and Garchomp means a world of difference.

90% sleep move on a poke with great sp.ATK and that is outsped by no truly OU pokes (Ninjask, electrode, jolteon, crobat and aerodactyl are all kind of meh-ish, even the ones listed in OU are barely OU-almost-BL), and tied by only 1 truly OU poke (Weavile).

Darkrai may be an only 600 BST, but compared to other 600 BSTs he's incredibly specialized, which means something huge. It means the difference between Dragonite and Salamence for example. Pidgeot and Starraptor have about the same BST, but you wouldn't compare them, right? Comparing Darkrai to something like Jirachi is just as bad an idea.

 

[Bologo]

I think the sleep plus the speed is what gets people going. Try to remember a few things:

-1 v. 1 Breloom defeats everything slower than it (sleep clause + switching mitigates this a bit). Thank god it's fairly slow

-Speed is not like attack. There is no difference between being outsped by 90 points or by 1 point. If you are outsped, you are outsped. Period. So the difference between gengar or azelf and Darkrai in OU is huge. Just as the measly 2 point difference between Salamence and Garchomp means a world of difference.

90% sleep move on a poke with great sp.ATK and that is outsped by no truly OU pokes (Ninjask, electrode, jolteon, crobat and aerodactyl are all kind of meh-ish, even the ones listed in OU are barely OU-almost-BL), and tied by only 1 truly OU poke (Weavile).

Darkrai may be an only 600 BST, but compared to other 600 BSTs he's incredibly specialized, which means something huge. It means the difference between Dragonite and Salamence for example. Pidgeot and Starraptor have about the same BST, but you wouldn't compare them, right? Comparing Darkrai to something like Jirachi is just as bad an idea.

Ok, but remember, Dark Void is actually only 80% accurate. As for the speed thing, there is Choice Scarf that so many things run already, such as Heracross that eliminate Darkrai with ease. Plus a weakness to U-Turn is a really bad weakness as well, which means that this thing is screwed by Crobat. Mach Punch also screws him over.

Breloom is still more annoying than Darkrai IMO because Breloom's sleep move + Focus Punch is a lot more deadly than Darkrai's sleep + Focus Punch, and unlike Azelf, Darkrai can't learn Nasty Plot. If Azelf can still be stopped once it gets a Nasty Plot, I'm sure that Darkrai can too.

Most of the time when you're comparing things that have the same base stat total, it's more the typing and movepool that you need to consider when comparing. Eg. Darkrai's movepool is pretty equal to the other 600 BSTs if you think about it, and it has the crappiest typing out of them as well with few resistances. It dies the easiest out of them, and doesn't have a huge damage dealer like Draco Meteor like the dragons. However, it is the fastest of them and has the highest special attack of them, with an OK ability (gamebreaking without sleep clause, OK with it, good for sleep talkers though).

Remember, Darkrai was banned when the metagame was thought to be super-offensive, but now it's all super-defensive, and this means that Darkrai can be stopped a lot easier than was initially thought.

 

[Forsety]

For fun, let's compare Darkrai to Gengar.

I don't think thats such a good idea given the old saying 'apples & oranges', but what the heck.

Maybe you can attempt to compare them in their roles but raw power can hardly begin to be compared. Darkrai essentially does utilize a specialist role, is pretty damn good at it and has that much more juice behind everything. So its basically got both variety AND power which Gengar lacks on the defensive side and physical offense.

With that said it has all those moves but does it really need to use them all? Dark Pulse alone has great power and 20% chance of flinch along with 125 speed. Add in something extra for your troubles like a cover move or Calm Mind and your set really.

I'm not saying that Darkrai isn't amazing, don't get me wrong. But if he was tested in OU, I think people might realize that he's nothing that we haven't seen before. Maybe.

Sometimes theres a limit to what you can test. Not even one sane person here wouldn't think Darkrai would become the biggest OU ever.

Ok, but remember, Dark Void is actually only 80% accurate.

Its also the only 600+ BST pokemon that even has a sleep move, a reliable one at that. The next pokemon of that calibur to have a sleep move is Uxie with Yawn or I suppose the much slower XD Mew with the less accurate Hypnosis.

If something like Tyrannitar, Garchomp, Salamance, Dragonite learnt Sleep Powder or Dark Void I could assure you hell would break loose too.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't see why people are debating what should or shouldn't be OU. The point of this is to see what performs poorly in uber, not what should be bumped down to OU. The only ones that should be considered being bumped down to OU would be Manaphy and Deoxys-E, and Manaphy's Tail Glow makes it very awesome indeed, and Deoxys-E would be a lot more broken in OU than people think.

But if that's the way discussion is steering, let it I say. Deoxys-E, despite its incompetence in ubers, definitely is too good for OU. Its main tool is Superpower. With Superpower, Blissey no longer walls you as the day is long! Weavile or Tyranitar can't just come in and Pursuit you while you're helpless! Then you also get the insanely powerful Psycho Boost. Nothing but resistances or very dedicated special walls can take many Psycho Boosts. A Life Orb set seems to be very useful in OU.

Deoxys @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
104 Atk / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Hasty / Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Psycho Boost
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
- Grass Knot / Ice Beam / Pursuit / Extremespeed / Taunt / etc.

This seems like it could break a lot of stuff. As mentioned earlier, Superpower is awesome against Blissey and common Pursuiters. Psycho Boost is insanely powerful, Shadow Ball and Ice Beam is for Cresselia or Ground-types/Tangrowth respectively. The last slot shows just how diverse this monster is. Ice Beam or Grass Knot if you run Shadow Ball in the fourth slot, Pursuit could be used to switch into opponent Psychic attacks and Pursuiting them away, Taunt cripples lots of defensive stuff, and despite how odd Extremespeed sounds, it could be used to kill off CB Dugtrio who tries to Sucker Punch. Definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Post away if you disagree.

 

[Influx]

No, Wobbuffet also has no counters. I think that is a pretty good reason for him to be uber. But we're not going to debate that here.

I don't know the test results of Deoxys-S yet, but if people find him not broken enough then he is obviously the worst. However, I still think you can make a somewhat good case for Ho-oh - he is essentially at ~200 max HP most of the time, which is about as much as Shuckle has except without the extreme defenses. That's pretty horrible.

You can set up on a Wobbufet though. It has no offense, only Mirror Coat, Counter, DB, and a Filler.

Jsut Stall him out with SD or something.

 

[Blu]

Why is Wobbuffet considered as an uber? He's such an easy pokemon to counter.

Anyways, Latios w/ soul dew can destroy teams. Hurrah for Sp.Atk and Sp.Def boost

 

[COalex]

I don't think thats such a good idea given the old saying 'apples & oranges', but what the heck.

How are they uncomparable? Similar stat distribution, both have a sleep move and the speed to use it, and their STABs are similar.

Maybe you can attempt to compare them in their roles but raw power can hardly begin to be compared. Darkrai essentially does utilize a specialist role, is pretty damn good at it and has that much more juice behind everything. So its basically got both variety AND power which Gengar lacks on the defensive side and physical offense.

I fail to see how Darkrai's "specialist role" doesn't apply to Gengar too. Aren't they both fast sleepers/special powerhouses? I also don't see how Darkrai has more versatility than Gengar; it gets Calm Mind to Gengar's Explosion, while Gengar trades a bad typing for an amazing three immunities and bucketfuls of resistences.

With that said it has all those moves but does it really need to use them all? Dark Pulse alone has great power and 20% chance of flinch along with 125 speed. Add in something extra for your troubles like a cover move or Calm Mind and your set really.

If you want to use Calm Mind, your set is basically Calm Mind/Dark Void/Dark Pulse/attacking move, which is good but not too difficult to counter (hello, Primape!).

Sometimes theres a limit to what you can test. Not even one sane person here wouldn't think Darkrai would become the biggest OU ever.

Not even one sane person here wouldn't think Blissey would become the biggest OU ever.

Oh wait.

Its also the only 600+ BST pokemon that even has a sleep move, a reliable one at that.

Mew gets Hypnosis via XD iirc, which you actually mention in your post. And yet you still say that.

If something like Tyrannitar, Garchomp, Salamance, Dragonite learnt Sleep Powder or Dark Void I could assure you hell would break loose too.

Well it's a good thing they didn't, then!

 

[Jibaku]

Darkrai resists Pursuit btw, someting that Gengar loses out on.
Primeape actualy takes a fair amount of damage from Dark Pulse, and then the opponent switches out to Cress to beat Primeape. Once Darkrai is brought back in again, the cycle starts over until Primeape dies. Cress, on the other hand, can switch into Primeape all day.

 

[Age of Kings]

IIts also the only 600+ BST pokemon that even has a sleep move, a reliable one at that. The next pokemon of that calibur to have a sleep move is Uxie with Yawn or I suppose the much slower XD Mew with the less accurate Hypnosis.

Rephrase that the the only reliable 600+ Pokemon that learns a nice sleeping move, since that's certainly news to Slaking and Shaymin.

 

[dragonsyth1]

No, it's Deoxys-E.

I'd agree that Deoxys-E is one of the worst. In OU it's incredibly broken but in ubers not so much. His speed is irrelevent compared to Deoxys-A's, because 150 outspeeds what it needs to (Darkrai, once-DD'd Adamant Rayquaza, etc.), and people usually find ways to beat Attack Deoxys' speed that beats Speed Deoxys' as well.

lol at ur sig, 8%+96%=102%.........

i think manaphy, without rain manaphy isnt great, and rain is harder to keep out without a kyogre.

 

[Forsety]

Rephrase that the the only reliable 600+ Pokemon that learns a nice sleeping move, since that's certainly news to Slaking and Shaymin.

Probably but Yawn isn't reliable with its turn delay and Grasswhistle is ass. As long the message got across.

Mew gets Hypnosis via XD iirc, which you actually mention in your post. And yet you still say that.

Keyword being reliable. That extra 10% accuracy makes alot of difference and I clearly said Mew is "MUCH SLOWER".

I fail to see how Darkrai's "specialist role" doesn't apply to Gengar too.

Obviously you're incapable of reading since somehow you interpreted the exact opposite of what I said and that Darkrai plain overpowers it in that role.

it gets Calm Mind to Gengar's Explosion

And Darkrai is actually capable of using physical moves without sacrificing itself with or without Swords Dance.

IIf you want to use Calm Mind, your set is basically Calm Mind/Dark Void/Dark Pulse/attacking move, which is good but not too difficult to counter (hello, Primape!).

Don't even go there, Primeape switches in then what? Its slower anyway, it'll be blasted to hell or outswitched. Also Gengar gets easily revenge killed/trapped by Pursuit or Sucker Punch in D/P. At least Darkrai still has the joy of actually being able to switch out.

 

[Dragontamer]

You can set up on a Wobbufet though. It has no offense, only Mirror Coat, Counter, DB, and a Filler.

Jsut Stall him out with SD or something.

Hello Encore. Now while I switch out to my bellyzard / Nasty Plot Porygon / Sub Dance Garchomp / whatever, you're stuck using SD again (can't switch out due to shadow tag).

Why is Wobbuffet considered as an uber? He's such an easy pokemon to counter.

Anyways, Latios w/ soul dew can destroy teams. Hurrah for Sp.Atk and Sp.Def boost

Okay... Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to counter a Wobbuffet switchin when it has Shadow Tag?

 

[Brawley]

I must say that an wobbuffect leads are quite good, and plus, encore is dangerous as it can then give you a free switch to Rayquaza who only needs 1 turn to set up and sweep. In standards it can help Dragonite, Garchomp, Infernape, Azelf, etc set up. Also Mew will not be allowed in standard. I once beat a whole team (advance testing) with:
Mew@Leftovers
252 hp/150 hp/108 Sp. Defense
Taunt
Toxic
Seismic Toss
Soft boiled.

Not to mention hwo insanely broken the nasty plot and sword dance sets would be with recover. >_>

 

[Lou Cypher]

Y'know, I'd welcome Deoxys-S into the OU metagame. Just because he can break a wall or two, which is DIRELY needed. Yes, his usage will be insanely high. But once people figure out how to deal with him (Something tells me Metagross will like this news), he'll be just another top-tier OU.

 

[Bologo]

Well, about the Darkrai thing, I just feel that he deserves to at least get tested like all the 600 BST pokemon were. That's what I feel about that,and that's really the message I wanted to convey by mentioning that.

Deoxys-s doesn't seem like it would be that hard to counter in OU. There's so many things that carry Pursuit and Sucker Punch, plus U-Turn is on many things as well. If Deoxys-s gets popular, it'll just set a newer magic number for Choice Scarfers so they can beat out his speed with it on, then he won't seem too threatening after that since he can't take many hits at all.

Heh, I think it's been pretty much decided that Deoxys Normal is the worst uber in the game since it's the only one that actually outclassed by anything. Heck, even Ho-Oh gets Sacred Fire to use off of 130 base attack which is also the strongest physical fire move in the game.

 

[Brawley]

Deoxys-S would be cool in standard. and I agree Darkai should be tested.

 

[umbarsc]

Deoxys-s doesn't seem like it would be that hard to counter in OU. There's so many things that carry Pursuit and Sucker Punch, plus U-Turn is on many things as well. If Deoxys-s gets popular, it'll just set a newer magic number for Choice Scarfers so they can beat out his speed with it on, then he won't seem too threatening after that since he can't take many hits at all.

That's why I suggested Extremespeed. If some dumbass Dugtrio or something tries to Sucker Punch you, Extremespeed it. Also, the "magic number" a Choice Scarf user has to get to to beat Deoxys-E is 336, which not even max speed Jolly Garchomp gets with a Scarf.

U-Turn? Why is that mentioned at all? And about Pursuit, like I explained, the most common ones (Heracross, Weavile, Tyranitar) are all crushed by the power of Psycho Boost or Superpower. The only one that I can think of that could get in on him would be Metagross.

You said a lot of things counter him easily, but you didn't specify on what, exactly. The three OU special walls (Snorlax, Regice, Blissey) all get annihilated by Superpower, Psycho Boost destroys anything not resistant to it in a couple hits (other than aforementioned Superpower-weak walls), Cresselia eats Shadow Balls. It outspeeds absolutely everything except for a couple of near-max speed Choice Scarf users, and can OHKO a lot of them with his awesome STAB move or other super-effective hits.

I'll run some more specific damage calcs later, but the general consensus is super-effective 120 Base Power move off of decent attack = dead or near-dead Blissey, and neutral STAB 140 Base Power move off of decent SpAtt = tears shit up.

 

[Brawley]

Well bulky waters (Suicune, Swampert, Milotic, Slowking, Vaporeon, Slowbro) Seem like good counters, and so do any other fairly bulky pokemon, also its not gonna be hurting anything it can't hit for super effective.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Bologo-- good points. Here are my opinions though:

Ok, but remember, Dark Void is actually only 80% accurate. As for the speed thing, there is Choice Scarf that so many things run already, such as Heracross that eliminate Darkrai with ease. Plus a weakness to U-Turn is a really bad weakness as well, which means that this thing is screwed by Crobat. Mach Punch also screws him over.

I could say the same about weavile or ttar, and that never got in their way. Having weaks to common types is a problem that a lot of the strongest OU pokes have-- but they do well regardless. Heatran is 4x weak to EARTHQUAKE for god's sake. Pure Dark may not be the best defensive typing, but it's certainly not the worst either.

Plus, when you're as fast as weavile or Darkrai, no one gives a damn about your defensive typing. :P

Not to mention that CS pokes are not exactly the most sneaky things about. Darkrai also can't be trapped well, with resistance to pursuit and Dugtrio's Sucker Punch.

Breloom is still more annoying than Darkrai IMO because Breloom's sleep move + Focus Punch is a lot more deadly than Darkrai's sleep + Focus Punch, and unlike Azelf, Darkrai can't learn Nasty Plot. If Azelf can still be stopped once it gets a Nasty Plot, I'm sure that Darkrai can too.

. . . aren't you underestimating special attacks flying off of 135 sp. ATK. Darkrai has the same sp. ATK as PZ. Lacking adaptability makes a difference, but download PZ performs well even when it gets something dumb like attack.

Most of the time when you're comparing things that have the same base stat total, it's more the typing and movepool that you need to consider when comparing. Eg. Darkrai's movepool is pretty equal to the other 600 BSTs if you think about it, and it has the crappiest typing out of them as well with few resistances. It dies the easiest out of them, and doesn't have a huge damage dealer like Draco Meteor like the dragons. However, it is the fastest of them and has the highest special attack of them, with an OK ability (gamebreaking without sleep clause, OK with it, good for sleep talkers though).

When you consider that Darkrai is flying attacks off or 135 sp. ATK instead of Salamence's 110 sp. ATK . . . I think he's doing ok for damage. Also how the hell is Darkrai's Movepool non-satisfactory?

-Bolt/Beam
-Fighting/Dark
(A lot of pokes would kill to be able to pull of even 1 of these 2 comboes)
-Double Status (W-o-W + DV)
-Stat Boosters in CM and Swords Dance

Plus a handful of other cool moves like Special Rend, taunt and pursuit . . .

More than satisfactory ain't it?

Remember, Darkrai was banned when the metagame was thought to be super-offensive, but now it's all super-defensive, and this means that Darkrai can be stopped a lot easier than was initially thought.

Tanks are even easier to fuck up with Subs, Taunts and Status. Darkrai would just tweak its gameplan. It's got the speed to pull off those types of nasty tricks well too.

 

[Mekkah]

Heh, I think it's been pretty much decided that Deoxys Normal is the worst uber in the game since it's the only one that actually outclassed by anything. Heck, even Ho-Oh gets Sacred Fire to use off of 130 base attack which is also the strongest physical fire move in the game.

Being outclassed by one means nothing when comparing him to the others. As Obi said, the only reason things worse than Deoxys-Normal are used is because there's a better substitutes.

However, if Deoxys-Attack > Deoxys-Normal, then that doesn't mean that other things > Deoxys-Normal automatically. They are apples and oranges at best.

 

[COalex]

Keyword being reliable. That extra 10% accuracy makes alot of difference and I clearly said Mew is "MUCH SLOWER".

Since when is 70% unreliable? Also, while Mew is slower than Darkrai, 100 Base isn't slow by any standard.

Obviously you're incapable of reading since somehow you interpreted the exact opposite of what I said and that Darkrai plain overpowers it in that role.

Obviously.

And Darkrai is actually capable of using physical moves without sacrificing itself with or without Swords Dance.

Sure, it can, but how would a moveset look with a physical move? Dark Void/Dark Pulse/Physical Move/Filler, and Darkrai really doesn't want to split his EVs, especially with only 90 base Attack.

Don't even go there, Primeape switches in then what? Its slower anyway, it'll be blasted to hell or outswitched. Also Gengar gets easily revenge killed/trapped by Pursuit or Sucker Punch in D/P. At least Darkrai still has the joy of actually being able to switch out.

The Primape comment was mostly sarcastic, and I already brought up Pursuit.

For somebody who said that Gengar and Darkrai were "apples and oranges", you spent an awful lot of your post talking about Darkrai's advantadges over Gengar. Without trying to make any accusations, you kind of dodged the main question here: why does Darkrai not merit testing?

 

[Brawley]

A mixed moveset for Darkai would be: Dark Void/Dark Pulse/Focus Punch/thunderbolt. Which works pretty well by the way.

 

[Hyra]

For somebody who said that Gengar and Darkrai were "apples and oranges", you spent an awful lot of your post talking about Darkrai's advantadges over Gengar. Without trying to make any accusations, you kind of dodged the main question here: why does Darkrai not merit testing?

Because it would replace Gengar!!!

But seriously, I don't know why not. Anyways, Gengar will always love its immunities to three common types while Darkrai only has one to an uncommon type. Meaning that Gengar will still get use. Hm... I actually don't see Darkrai being to broken?

It doesn't get Nasty Plot, right? I see it as no more threatening a sweep then Porygon Z then. Darkrai doesn't have the defenses to use Calm Mind, few outside of Suicune, Blissey, and Raikou do anymore.

 

[umbarsc]

Well bulky waters (Suicune, Swampert, Milotic, Slowking, Vaporeon, Slowbro) Seem like good counters, and so do any other fairly bulky pokemon, also its not gonna be hurting anything it can't hit for super effective.

He learns Grass Knot, which hits Slowbro, Milotic, and Suicune for 100 BP, and Swampert for 80 BP (with a quad weakness), or can utilize Thunderbolt. Plus all of them get worn down by Psycho Boosts eventually.

Really, Deoxys' insane movepool is what makes it so hard to counter. Superpower busts up Blissey, Regice, and Snorlax, Psycho Boost hits everything but dedicated Special walls (most of which are wrecked by Superpower) and resists (which means Steel-, Psychic-, and Dark-types). Dark types, especially Weavile and Tyranitar, are hit hard by Superpower, and some Steel-types (the ones without insane Def like most), and Psychic-types can be hit by Shadow Ball.

This is Deoxys-A's main selling point: think special Psychic sweeper that doesn't get fucked over by Weavile revenge-kills!