Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

[Banedon]

"The movie Avatar is so important to see solely because of its 3-d CGI technology which revolutionized movie experiences"

This is not me saying "the only reason to see it is because it's 3-D", this is me giving the "one reason it's so important".

No. That is you saying the only reason to see it is because it's 3-D. Actually both the first and the second interpretations are the same thing because in the second you refer to Avatar being in 3-D as "the one reason" it's so important - i.e. the ONLY reason it's so important. If you wanted to say that Avatar being 3-D is one reason to see it, but only one of many reasons, what you should've said is:

"The movie Avatar is so important to see partly because of its 3-D CGI technology which revolutionized movie experiences"

Alternatively, you could've said:

"this is me giving one reason it's so important"

By using "solely" and "the one reason" you immediately exclude any other possibilities.

If you truthfully meant to say that Ludicolo's typing is one of, but not the only, reason it's used in RD teams then I'm sorry I attacked this point so heavily. Next time though remind me to make allowances for your English not being very good.

Ludicolo is predictable. It almost always uses the same coverage types (Ice Grass Water) and 9/10 times it's Swords Dance.

It is? I thought ToF mentioned somewhere that a grand total of 17% of Ludicolo's used Swords Dance. Want me to find you the quote?

I wait for you to nominate Kabutops next round, by the way.

@below - I tried (see post #327), but Heysup decided to be less than civil.

 

[Stellar]

Banedon, if you really want to argue over semantics, that's fine, but I really don't see the need to throw in a blatant jab at Heysup with, "Next time though remind me to make allowances for your English not being very good." We all know that Heysup can, and does, speak English well.

I realize people are probably getting restless and really have nothing to talk about in the absence of a playable "current" ladder, but please can everyone cool their jets at try to keep things civil?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Froslass was nominated over Snover because it was quite possibly broken outside of Hail too. If only Hail made it broken, I'd probably be okay with banning Snover (like we did Abomosnow, who made Hail itself much more viable). I think we can all more or less agree that Kabutops isn't broken outside of rain, which is why I think we should focus on the Support characteristic in this case, not the Pokemon being supported.

I will grant that your team has more trouble with Kabutops than any of the other rain sweepers (and I didn't post the logs because I didn't want you to feel like I was "calling you out" or anything), but that's not the case for all teams. I 5-0'd a team with Specs Gorebyss today (they thought defensive Venusaur and Registeel were enough to wall it..ha), beat a Balanced team with Ludicolo as my last sweeper (Kabutops couldn't get past Quagsire), etc. I'm sure they have different opinions on what a "broken" rain sweeper is.

 

[Heysup]

Banedon, if you really want to argue over semantics, that's fine, but I really don't see the need to throw in a blatant jab at Heysup with, "Next time though remind me to make allowances for your English not being very good." We all know that Heysup can, and does, speak English well.

I realize people are probably getting restless and really have nothing to talk about in the absence of a playable "current" ladder, but please can everyone cool their jets at try to keep things civil?

Sorry if I seem frustrated, but posters like Smurf and Banedon really irritate me when they ignore relevant information and post irrelevant information and personal attacks in an especially snarky manner.

No. That is you saying the only reason to see it is because it's 3-D. Actually both the first and the second interpretations are the same thing because in the second you refer to Avatar being in 3-D as "the one reason" it's so important - i.e. the ONLY reason it's so important. If you wanted to say that Avatar being 3-D is one reason to see it, but only one of many reasons, what you should've said is:

"The movie Avatar is so important to see partly because of its 3-D CGI technology which revolutionized movie experiences"

Alternatively, you could've said:

"this is me giving one reason it's so important"

By using "solely" and "the one reason" you immediately exclude any other possibilities.

If you truthfully meant to say that Ludicolo's typing is one of, but not the only, reason it's used in RD teams then I'm sorry I attacked this point so heavily. Next time though remind me to make allowances for your English not being very good.

If only I didn't feel compelled to argue this pointless argument. If only...

From #C&C

<+Heysup> If I'm saying
<+Heysup> "Ludicolo is crucial to Rain Dance teams only because of its defensive typing"
<+Heysup> Does that mean "The only thing ludicolo uses is its defensive typing"
<+Heysup> sds / rs?
<+Reflect_Suicune> no
<+Reflect_Suicune> It would mean "Ludicolo is so important to rain dance teams only because of its defensive typing"
<+Heysup> i'm just on the forums
<Dubulous> lol
<+Heysup> and some guy
<+Heysup> is trying to make it sound like im saying something I'm not
<+Reflect_Suicune> well he is definitely wrong
<+Reflect_Suicune> but "lol"
<+Reflect_Suicune> "Ludicolo is crucial to Rain Dance teams" is the main sentence, and "its defensive typing" is the reason
<+Reflect_Suicune> I don't see how anyone could interpret it any other way really

Clearly I am saying that there is ONE reason why Ludicolo is "key", not that there is one reason that Ludicolo

Maybe solely confused you and i didn't need to use it. Solely makes much more sense when you take it in context, which is when it is being compared to Kabutops. Either way, it still wasn't what you were saying.

It is? I thought ToF mentioned somewhere that a grand total of 17% of Ludicolo's used Swords Dance. Want me to find you the quote?

This is true, however (I AM SPECULATING HERE) Ludicolo seems to run SD more often now, as those stats are fairly old(we don't have feb stats).

What I will say is that the other point I made is true though. Ice / Grass / Water is a very predictable and easy to beat combo, especially when only Water is hitting hard.

Froslass was nominated over Snover because it was quite possibly broken outside of Hail too. If only Hail made it broken, I'd probably be okay with banning Snover (like we did Abomosnow, who made Hail itself much more viable). I think we can all more or less agree that Kabutops isn't broken outside of rain, which is why I think we should focus on the Support characteristic in this case, not the Pokemon being supported.

Well Kabutops actually functions amazingly well "after Rain wears off" still. Like, 2-3 turns of Rain essentially allow it to break its counters, and sweeping without Rain is not so uncommon (read: our match with my balance team ugh) after that. If you consider that order, it makes a little more sense to compare Froslass and Kabutops.

Obviously it isn't as cut and dry as Froslass was because of its "almost BL" status outside of Hail, however if you consider "Swift Swim" as an advantage for Kabutops it doesn't seem that crazy to ban it for its ability to abuse Rain dance and break the offensive characteristic in Rain, where as no other Pokemon are becoming broken by rain. There are two ways to look at it:

1) Kabutops is the only thing "broken (imo)" in Rain, therefore ban it
2) Kabutops is broken when rain is being used, so ban Rain Dance

Option one would seem more reasonable to me.

I will grant that your team has more trouble with Kabutops than any of the other rain sweepers (and I didn't post the logs because I didn't want you to feel like I was "calling you out" or anything), but that's not the case for all teams. I 5-0'd a team with Specs Gorebyss today (they thought defensive Venusaur and Registeel were enough to wall it..ha), beat a Balanced team with Ludicolo as my last sweeper (Kabutops couldn't get past Quagsire), etc. I'm sure they have different opinions on what a "broken" rain sweeper is.

I mean I want to "believe" you here, but from literally every match and log I see otherwise. I mean I really doubt you're lying, it's just that it's speculation about what happened unless there are logs (I do speculate in the case of our battle, I'll admit, but I do have the logs).

@ Banedon below:

......what on earth are you talking about?

EDIT in response to your "PS": It doesn't matter. You can only interpret it one way. It also doesn't matter since "solely" was being used in a context (compared to Kabutops), and simply seems that it is worded "poorly" when taken out of that context (which you did). (Ludicolo has many reasons to be used on a RD team, but Ludicolo has one reason that it's ~=Kabutops good, which doesn't fulfill the offensive characteristic)

Oy. Showing a screenshot of someone making the same mistake as you shows what exactly? You are ignoring the subject of the sentence, as well as the context. For the last time. Just drop it for your own good.

 

[Banedon]

Lol ...

<+Heysup> If I'm saying
<+Heysup> "Ludicolo is crucial to Rain Dance teams only because of its defensive typing"
<+Heysup> Does that mean "The only thing ludicolo uses is its defensive typing"
<+Heysup> sds / rs?
<+Reflect_Suicune> no
<+Reflect_Suicune> It would mean "Ludicolo is so important to rain dance teams only because of its defensive typing"
<+Heysup> i'm just on the forums
<Dubulous> lol
<+Heysup> and some guy
<+Heysup> is trying to make it sound like im saying something I'm not
<+Reflect_Suicune> well he is definitely wrong
<+Reflect_Suicune> but "lol"
<+Reflect_Suicune> "Ludicolo is crucial to Rain Dance teams" is the main sentence, and "its defensive typing" is the reason
<+Reflect_Suicune> I don't see how anyone could interpret it any other way really

Clearly Ludicolo is crucial to RD teams because of its defensive typing. Right? I'm beginning to think you're trying to act stupid by producing a piece of "evidence" that fully supports what I'm saying. Wow, just wow. If only I didn't feel compelled to continue this pointless argument, but no ...

PS: You haven't asked Reflect_Suicune if he interprets your statement to mean "its defensive typing" is the ONLY reason Ludicolo is crucial to RD teams. I'll point out that nowhere in what Reflect_Suicune says does he support (or contradict, for that matter) this conclusion.
PPS: Since you went to such great lengths to get "proof", here's something I got, too. I got this screenshot out of another game I play. I had to leave out the Pokemon statement because Amanda isn't a Pokemon player (not as far as I know anyway). Enjoy.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1362/lolwutlu.jpg

EDIT: @ the above post

So you've said that someone made the same mistake as me. Bravo. Can I call Reflect_Suicune out for making the same mistake as you? Are you that insensitive to the idea that you may have ... *gasp* ... made a mistake? Or are you infallible? I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Your use of the word "solely" directly implies that there is only one reason to use Ludicolo on RD teams, and that is its typing offers more defensive options. If you meant it to mean anything else, you worded your sentence poorly. Your chatlog shows that you (at least when you got that log) still didn't understand what the fault is, too.

 

[HR.]

Banedon, you really should stop posting things that make no sense whatsoever.

 

[Reflect Suicune]

This thread is tl;dr, but I have to say some of you guys can do a much better, and far less disrespectful job of arguing... All I've seen is a whole bunch of random arguments, and even more random strawmans and insults. Banedon, your argument is cute, and admittedly quite entertaining, but it is not really an argument, just an attempt to challenge other users' integrity. You'd make a great politician, but you didn't really prove, or even state anything in like your last 20 posts... No this doesn't mean you pull up your 19th post that happens to prove one thing, because that kind of shit is exactly the problem with the recent discussion in this thread.

Or how having 8 turns of rain means you're less vulnerable to Substitute stalling is still

There is no subjectiveness or bias here. By default 8 turns of anything is less vulnerable to stalling than 5 turns of that same thing. 8 > 5 pal. If you aren't aware of that simple fact, then anything you say can be considered "subjective and biased speculation"

I am NOT singling you, this post is directed at just about everyone, and I am NOT taking Heysup's side - frankly I don't even really know who Heysup is, nor do I care. Regardless, this thread has gotten fucking retarded,

all I've seen is what capefeather described:

It's just putting words into people's mouths

and you CAN question one's opinions without questioning their values
Stop exploiting possible English errors and errors in understanding, grow some balls and compose a real fucking argument.

Also for the record "crucial" =/= "beneficial"... You came up with 300 ways to disprove his statement by showing other merits to Ludicolo on an RD team, but the reality is it was a subjective statement, and he has the right to believe that none of the other merits you pointed out are "crucial"... He did not at any time say no other reasons existed, he only implied that (whatever he said) was the most important one).

You guys need to just start over and go back to stating your cases.There are numerous valid arguments that either side can be using, and as such there is no excuse for display of immaturity in recent pages of this thread. I don't even really play UU and I can put together a better argument than some of you guys.
---
Personally I think neither Damp Rock, nor Rain, deserve any bans or restrictions. Yes the former makes the latter a very viable strategy, but there are already plenty of other very viable strategies in UU, all Damp Rock does is level the playing field for rain... Furthermore there is still the automatic opportunity cost in using Damp Rock, which is the loss of durability from no Leftovers, or the lack of outright power from no Life Orb/Expert Belt/Choice Specs/Stick/whatever. You still have to give up your item to use it...

Also, some people are exaggerating the effects of Rain. At the end of the day, only one type is affected, and there are plenty of Pokemon that resist Water. Most Pokemon that sport at least a 2x resist to Water can come in and check just about any Rain Dancer barring Ludicolo...

Kabutops is extremely potent, but the battle does not start with rainy weather and a +2 Kabutops. You still have to set the scene, and this can take AT LEAST 2 (usually 3) turns.

There is not a single Rain Dance Pokemon that does not have an extensive list of counters/checks, and even better is the fact that a lot of the same names come up multiple times. Gardevoir beats 9/10 Rain Dance members 1 on 1. And it does not even always need a Choice Scarf to do it.

Max Special Attack, Timid Gardevoir (no item involved) vs. standard Kabutops
97.5% - 114.7%

Max Special Attack, Timid Gardevoir (no item involved) vs. standard Qwilfish.
120.3% - 141.7%

Gardevoir can come in on Rain Dance, or even Swords Dance from anything but Ludicolo, Trace Swift Swim, and easily OHKO with Thunderbolt. It doesn't need Choice Specs or even Life Orb. Just for the sake of completion I will note that Gardevoir needs Choice Scarf to outspeed most Qwilfish, but does not need it for Kabutops, where it ties at worst. The exact same argument applies to Porygon2, although he always needs a Choice Scarf.

Edit: Qwilfish, Waterfall, after a Swords Dance, with Life Orb vs. maximum defensive Porygon2
93% - 109.4%
Porygon2 generally will fail to survive, but there are other options, plus you shouldn't be allowing your opponent to get both rain and a swords dance up in the first place. It IS possible for Porygon2 to outspeed (it needs only a Speed stat of at least 197 and a Choice Scarf to be guaranteed to outspeed even the fastest Qwilfish. Also note that this is just barely a KO, so this means there are numerous other Pokemon that can do the job just fine, including Venusaur, Slowbro, Blastoise, and Lanturn

This is admittedly just two Pokemon, but there are many others that can threaten most RD Pokemon either with their typing or traits. Off the top of my head...Poliwrath, Quagsire, Lanturn, Toxicroak, Altaria (lol, I know) just to name a few. This is completely ignoring the obvious option of carrying a Swift Swimmer of your own, designed to thwart their efforts. My point is there is a ridiculous number of options.

 

[Banedon]

There is no subjectiveness or bias here. By default 8 turns of anything is less vulnerable to stalling than 5 turns of that same thing. 8 > 5 pal. If you aren't aware of that simple fact, then anything you say can be considered "subjective and biased speculation"

The problem is that I not only didn't say that 5 < 8 or that not having Damp Rock doesn't make you less vulnerable to Substitute stalling, I raised this point long before Heysup did:

Damp rock advantage #3 and #4: you are a lot less vulnerable to Substitute stalling, and you don't have to carry Rain Dance on your sweepers.

I'm aware you did tl;dr the entire thread (I would've done the same if I were you; it is 18 pages long), so I'm not faulting you for missing it. But I do fault Heysup, especially since I've referred to it before and he either persistently ignored it, or couldn't find it but pretended he found it. I'll honestly say that I think Heysup systematically destroyed this thread about 3-4 pages ago by dismissing every counterargument raised as subjective and biased speculation. Since then the thread was basically meaningless bar a few constructive posts, hence your conclusion that my argument is "cute". I'd given up trying to convince Heysup.

Thanks for trying to rescue the thread. I haven't much to say in response to your post; like I said I've been on the fence about whether rain is overpowered or whether I'm bad. I'll just point out this thing though:

Personally I think neither Damp Rock, nor Rain, deserve any bans or restrictions. Yes the former makes the latter a very viable strategy, but there are already plenty of other very viable strategies in UU, all Damp Rock does is level the playing field for rain...

Heysup's argument is that Damp Rock doesn't make a difference, and that it is Kabutops which is overpowered. Hence according to him Damp Rock doesn't "level the playing field for rain" or makes rain "a very viable strategy", because it's viable without Damp Rock.

Also: here's something to think about.

Max attack LO Adamant +2 Kabutops vs. min/min Sceptile, using Aqua Jet: 43.4% - 51.2%
Max attack LO Adamant +2 Kabutops vs. min/min Sceptile in the rain, using Waterfall: 129.5% - 152.7%

Good example of why extra rain turns help RD teams sweep. Without rain up, Kabutops is forced to Aqua Jet against Sceptile, who'll return an OHKO. On the other hand, if rain is up, Kabutops is suddenly faster and will be the one to OHKO Sceptile.

PS: I swear, if Heysup dismisses these calcs as subjective and biased speculation while upholding his "but Swellow 2HKOes full health Uxie without Leftovers if it doesn't switches into Stealth Rock" argument, I'll puke.

 

[YaM]

Banedon... drop it. Just drop it. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. Dropping it helps the thread in my opinion.

Banedon - When to RD players it's obvious that Ludicolo brings so many more things to the table like its unique offensive typing i.e. being able to use STAB attacks vs. bulky Water types, as well as having access to attacks like Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch and Focus Punch for use against Pokemon like Poliwrath, Venusaur and Chansey, as well as its unpredictability, but don't worry guys: it's pretty clear that Ludicolo is on RD teams

Heysup - So then use Floatzel, it learns all of those attacks and has higher Speed and Attack. Why do you lose Ludicolo if not for its typing? Seriously it's stupid to have on your Rain team if it's typing isn't the main reason it's used; otherwise it's outclassed.

The typing works both offensively and defensively. I really think everyone agrees here so let's not argue anymore. This quote [Floatzel sentence] is why I compared Ludicolo to Floatzel... and Gorebyss to prove that specially Ludicolo isn't outclassed specially either. By the way, Gorebyss has only a 64% chance to have 2 Hydro Pumps hit in a row... I know this has nothing to do with Kabutops vs Ludicolo but I'm just pointing this out.

RS - Qwilfish vs Porygon2. You forgot Rain is up? It's 95.5% - 112.3%.




PS I will be doing this after Cress and PZ are banned

Also, on the subject of logs, I would like to see some people be more open, willing and honest in this regard. Like, say, use 3 different Rain dance teams (one normal, one without Damp Rock, one without Kabutops) then post the first 10 or so logs for each. If several people do this, it would produce both significant and unbiased samples to analyze, and although it may not prove much by itself, it will certainly help put certain arguments into greater perspective.

Please do analyze them when they're up, the last time I put logs up they were ignored.

 

[SJCrew]

I recently discovered another rain killer in the form of Golduck, with its little-known ability called Cloud Nine. If you're not familiar with it, it's exactly the same thing as Air Lock: ignores any and all effects of weather. With Specs, it can stand toe-to-toe with most rain sweepers and OHKO. Ludicolo is probably the only thing Golduck can't kill at max HP, even with SR damage, but it likes to use its one free switch-in trying to save its buddies from an imminent OHKO, but if I'm a dick and just use Signal Beam instead, it ends up dying without doing anything.

You'd be surprised at the number of ways you can find to stop rain teams when you're actually trying. It's not hard at all, people.

 

[Banedon]

Please do analyze them when they're up, the last time I put logs up they were ignored.

Think I'll analyze shrang's warstory here (doing it in the warstory itself seems inappropriate) -

I think the warstory doesn't prove anything either way, although it does bias against FlareBlitz a bit. Some points:

1. If the opening move hadn't been a crit then Qwilfish would've gotten a layer of Spikes up, which would mean FlareBlitz's Kabutops would've KO'ed shrang's Kabutops near the end. It also meant FlareBlitz didn't have anyone to absorb Toxic Spikes with, which really hurt his team.
2. Gorebyss suicided, which I bet must've been a mistake on FlareBlitz's part.
3. Uxie set up rain when it hadn't ended once, which I believe is again a mistake on FlareBlitz's part (he could've Yawn'ed, for example, which would've forced Moltres out and left no Substitute to break). However, shrang compensated by not sub-stalling ...
4. Hitmontop using Bulk Up against Mesprit was definitely a mistake. Switching to Moltres would've gotten a free sub, stall out some turns of rain and rack up Toxic Spikes damage.

So overall it was a decent game, and both players made mistakes ... but conclusion: no conclusion (>_<).

 

[SJCrew]

There's no such thing as a perfect game. One side can post logs all day regarding their stance, while the other side can easily hand wave it on the basis of hax/the player/the player's team or whatever. All in all, it was a fair match and the amount of luck involved was minimal. Shrang did get his point across in that it's perfectly possible for a well-prepared player to beat a rain team without the team itself being fundamentally flawed, and the fact that he managed to win even while making a few critical mistakes makes it all the more impressive.

Pokemon usually end up being broken when they can get their job done 9/10 and even well-prepared players can't do a thing about it. If your standard teams can't beat rain anymore, then stop being lazy and make a few changes to make sure it can. It's just another playstyle, like stall or HO, and is beaten about the same way: a little thought and progressive changes.

 

[flashbolt]

I recently discovered another rain killer in the form of Golduck, with its little-known ability called Cloud Nine. If you're not familiar with it, it's exactly the same thing as Air Lock: ignores any and all effects of weather. With Specs, it can stand toe-to-toe with most rain sweepers and OHKO. Ludicolo is probably the only thing Golduck can't kill at max HP, even with SR damage, but it likes to use its one free switch-in trying to save its buddies from an imminent OHKO, but if I'm a dick and just use Signal Beam instead, it ends up dying without doing anything.

Been discussed before, very early on in the thread (or it may have been in the np:Can't touch this). Either way, it is generally regarded that gardevoir and especially golduck don't count as rain counters unless it can be shown that they aren't a liability outside of rain.
Gardevoir is a more interesting case study than Golduck. Perhaps p2 too.

Banedon: you have been a victim of a misunderstanding, one of the imperfections of the English language. (the difference between formal and casual English). Either way, who cares even if he made one slip up, IMO that doesnt devalue anything else he said except that sentence, which (if the meaning is as you suggest) he wouldnt stand by anyway.

Perhaps we should stop this type of debate which says "if i can devalue your opinions and discredit you then i can disregard all your arguments" and focus on arguments. Even if the aforementionned style is a legitimate one, it is not productive. Lets restore this thread.

 

[Banedon]

Here's a random rain log for everyone to enjoy. It's against someone whose name is familiar, but I don't recognize, on ladder. He played very well, making some clutch predictions. It's also only my third game ever with rain, so I'm bound to make mistakes. Some bolded comments added by yours truly.

Hide

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Banedon sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
_Lead Test_ sent out Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Steinhauser has entered the room.
Banedon: Hm
Banedon: Why do I recognize your name from somewhere
Mesprit used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!

Mesprit used Sunny Day.
The sun began to shine!
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The sun continues to shine.
---
Mesprit used Shadow Ball.
Qwilfish lost 30% of its health.
Qwilfish used Rain Dance.
The sun faded.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.

I used Rain Dance here just in case he switched to a sun sweeper.
---
Steinhauser: Urp. I dunno
Mesprit used Sunny Day.
The rain stopped.
The sun began to shine!
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The sun continues to shine.
---
Steinhauser: You mean me, right? not Lead Test?
Banedon: No I mean Lead Test
Mesprit used Shadow Ball.
Qwilfish lost 34% of its health.
Qwilfish used Rain Dance.
The sun faded.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Mesprit used Sunny Day.
The rain stopped.
The sun began to shine!
Qwilfish used Explosion.
A critical hit!
Mesprit lost 100% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Mesprit fainted.
Banedon's Qwilfish fainted.
The sun continues to shine.

Major mistake here. If Qwilfish had had Swift Swim instead of Poison Point like he's supposed to have, Explosion would've neatly finished off Mesprit with Rain still up. Too bad.
---
Banedon: Wow I didn't give my Qwilfish Poison Point
Banedon: ** Swift Swim
Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
_Lead Test_ switched in Jumpluff (lvl 100 Jumpluff ?).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Jumpluff used Substitute.
Jumpluff lost 25% of its health.
Jumpluff made a substitute!
Uxie used Rain Dance.
The sun faded.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
---
Jumpluff used Encore.
Uxie got an encore!
Uxie used Rain Dance.
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.

I expected Encore but didn't want to switch out at once (wanted to go for U-turn, breaking the sub).
---
Banedon switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Jumpluff used Leech Seed.
Jumpluff's attack missed!
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
---
Jumpluff used Sleep Powder.
Mesprit fell asleep!
Mesprit is fast asleep!
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
---
Banedon switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
Jumpluff used Leech Seed.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Ludicolo used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Jumpluff!
Jumpluff's substitute faded!
Jumpluff used Encore.
Ludicolo got an encore!
The rain continues to fall.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Ludicolo's attack!
Arcanine was hurt by Spikes!
Arcanine lost 25% of its health.
Ludicolo used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Arcanine lost 32% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.

This crit actually meant a lot later ...
---
Banedon switched in Gorebyss (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gorebyss.
Gorebyss lost 12% of its health.
Arcanine used Toxic.
Gorebyss was badly poisoned!
The rain stopped.
Gorebyss is hurt by poison!
Gorebyss lost 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.

This was another major mistake. With only one turn of rain left I'm bound to have to switch out, which mean Gorebyss took damage for no reason whatsoever. Too bad.
---
Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
_Lead Test_ switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Poliwrath was hurt by Spikes!
Poliwrath lost 25% of its health.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
Uxie used Heal Bell.
Poliwrath used Substitute.
Poliwrath lost 25% of its health.
Poliwrath made a substitute!
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
Uxie used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Poliwrath used Encore.
Uxie got an encore!
The rain continues to fall.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.

Luckily min-speed Uxie is still faster than Poliwrath. He's got two Encores, so yeah.
---
Banedon switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
Poliwrath used Ice Punch.
A critical hit!
Ludicolo lost 63% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.

This crit will turn out to have major impact later as well ...
---
Ludicolo used Grass Knot.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Poliwrath!
Poliwrath's substitute faded!
Poliwrath used Substitute.
Poliwrath lost 25% of its health.
Poliwrath made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
Ludicolo used Grass Knot.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Poliwrath!
Poliwrath's substitute faded!
Poliwrath used Ice Punch.
Ludicolo lost 2% of its health.
Banedon's Ludicolo fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.

If no crit earlier I could've stayed in much longer. I think he stopped Substitute stalling here because he wanted enough HP to switch into the three layers of spikes later.
---
Banedon switched in Gorebyss (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gorebyss.
Gorebyss lost 12% of its health.
_Lead Test_ switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Gorebyss's attack!
Arcanine was hurt by Spikes!
Arcanine lost 25% of its health.
Gorebyss used Hidden Power.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 17% of its health.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Gorebyss lost 32% of its health.
Gorebyss used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 19% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Arcanine fainted.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

I used Ice Beam just in case Poliwrath came back in. It was just enough to kill, so the earlier crit mattered.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Camerupt (lvl 100 Camerupt ?).
Camerupt was hurt by Spikes!
Camerupt lost 25% of its health.
_Lead Test_ switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Poliwrath was hurt by Spikes!
Poliwrath lost 25% of its health.
Gorebyss used Surf.
Poliwrath's Water Absorb absorbed damage!
Poliwrath restored 25% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.

Well played double switch. The 25% on Camerupt won't matter since with me using rain he'll die even if he had 150% HP. In the meantime, Poliwrath gets in for free.
---
Gorebyss used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 59% of its health.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
Poliwrath used Encore.
Gorebyss got an encore!
The rain stopped.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.

His mistake here using Encore. Since I have Life Orb I'm obviously going to switch moves, and since Rain is still up I'm going to outspeed.
---
Banedon switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
_Lead Test_ switched in Jumpluff (lvl 100 Jumpluff ?).

Rain ended, so I'm not staying. Turns out he decided not to stay too. Good play, since if I'd stayed in I would've done almost no damage while he'd get to put up free subs and all that.
---
Jumpluff used Sleep Powder.
Jumpluff's attack missed!
Mesprit used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Jumpluff used Substitute.
Jumpluff lost 25% of its health.
Jumpluff made a substitute!
Mesprit used U-turn.
The substitute took damage for Jumpluff!
Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
---
Jumpluff used Sleep Powder.
Uxie fell asleep!
Uxie is fast asleep!
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
---
Jumpluff used Leech Seed.
Uxie was seeded!
Uxie is fast asleep!
The rain continues to fall.
Jumpluff's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's health was sapped by leech seed!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Jumpluff regained health!
Jumpluff restored 6% of its health.
---
Jumpluff used Leech Seed.
But it failed!
Uxie is fast asleep!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's health was sapped by leech seed!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Jumpluff regained health!
---
Jumpluff used Substitute.
But it failed!
Uxie woke up!
Uxie used U-turn.
The substitute took damage for Jumpluff!
Jumpluff's substitute faded!
Banedon switched in Gorebyss (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gorebyss.
Gorebyss lost 7% of its health.
Banedon's Gorebyss fainted.
The rain continues to fall.

If it weren't for Damp Rock there's no way I could've done this kind of thing. Absolutely no way. I also make a major mistake here by sacrificing Gorebyss for no good. Oh well.
---
Banedon switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
Kabutops's attack missed!
Jumpluff used Encore.
Kabutops got an encore!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Steinhauser: : {
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Jumpluff lost 100% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Jumpluff fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Camerupt (lvl 100 Camerupt ?).
Camerupt was hurt by Spikes!
Camerupt lost 25% of its health.
Banedon: Don't worry about it
Banedon: It's only my second game with rain
Banedon: I'm bound to make lots of mistakes
Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Camerupt used Rock Polish.
Camerupt's speed was sharply raised.
---
Steinhauser: Well it wasn't so much a mistake
Camerupt used Fire Blast.
Uxie lost 25% of its health.
Banedon's Uxie fainted.
Camerupt lost 10% of its health.
---
Banedon: I sacrificed Gorebyss
Banedon: Wasting one turn of rain
Banedon: That's a mistake
Banedon switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Camerupt used Fire Blast.
Mesprit lost 58% of its health.
Camerupt lost 10% of its health.
Mesprit used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Camerupt used Hidden Power.
Mesprit lost 5% of its health.
Banedon's Mesprit fainted.
Camerupt lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Banedon switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
Steinhauser: Naw, it died on switch-in
Banedon: Precisely
_Lead Test_ switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Poliwrath was hurt by Spikes!
Poliwrath lost 16% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Poliwrath fainted.
Kabutops used Swords Dance.
Kabutops's attack was sharply raised.
The rain continues to fall.

An extremely dangerous prediction here. I had only Kabutops left. If Camerupt had attacked, it would've been game, but he didn't.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Exeggutor (lvl 100 Exeggutor ?).
Exeggutor was hurt by Spikes!
Exeggutor lost 25% of its health.
Steinhauser: So your kabutops switch in didn't take any time
Banedon: Well it originally didn't need any time either
Kabutops used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Exeggutor lost 75% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Exeggutor fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

Bit of calcs here show that +2 LO Max attack Adamant Waterfall in the rain kills min/min Exeggutor who switched into 3 layers of Spikes, so I didn't take the risk on Stone Edge. Otherwise LO Max attack Adamant Stone Edge also has a good chance of scoring a OHKO on min/min Exeggutor at 75%.
---
_Lead Test_ has left the room.
Banedon wins!
Steinhauser: i guess switching out gorebyss at 6% was in itself a mistake
Actually it wasn't because Gorebyss was Encored into HP Grass @_@
Banedon: Yeah
Steinhauser: Well, looks like you came out on top
Steinhauser has left the room.
Banedon: Lucky

We both made mistakes. I think it's a great battle regardless, and I'd warstory it as a companion to shrang's if I had more time. gg!

PS: in case anyone wonders, I won the first "game" with this team when my opponent forfeited on turn one. The second I lost to hail stall, and this is the third. I didn't save the logs from the first two games. The first game was over on turn one, so it meant nothing; the second my opponent did Energy Ball with Snover at once - I expected at least one Protect - while I set up Spikes. Based only on my memory, I remember stall wars with his Stallrein (albeit with it raining, not hail) while I alternated between Uxie and Mesprit, U-turning to break the sub. I remember Ludicolo got in against Walrein but ate a Toxic, then attempted to Grass Knot as he Protected. After that I made the brave prediction to Focus Punch, but he switched to Froslass. I Surfed, killed and died to LO recoil. Then he sent out Snover again, forcing me to put rain back up. With rain back up I scored another kill, but again he sent out Snover, this time going to Glaceon as I put up Rain. Blizzard hit twice, killing Mesprit. I sent in Kabutops, but he sacrificed Snover to entry hazards, putting up hail for the last time. After that it was gg, with all my Rain Dancers dead.

PPS: rain log from game 3.

Hide

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Banedon sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
whistleblower sent out Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Banedon: Are you whistle?
whistleblower: no
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Qwilfish fell asleep!
Qwilfish is fast asleep!
---
Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
whistleblower switched in Venomoth (lvl 100 Venomoth ?).
---
whistleblower: this team
Banedon: Yes
Banedon: I stole it
Banedon: Well
whistleblower: it's Flare's isn't it
Banedon: 80% of it
Venomoth used Bug Buzz.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 66% of its health.
Uxie used Heal Bell.
---
Venomoth used Bug Buzz.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 34% of its health.
Banedon's Uxie fainted.
---
Steinhauser has entered the room.
Banedon switched in Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
whistleblower switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Qwilfish used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Qwilfish used Explosion.
Venusaur lost 100% of its health.
whistleblower's Venusaur fainted.
Banedon's Qwilfish fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Banedon switched in Gorebyss (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
whistleblower switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
whistleblower switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Gorebyss used Surf.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Azumarill lost 100% of its health.
whistleblower's Azumarill fainted.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Banedon: Sorry >_<
whistleblower switched in Rotom (lvl 100 Rotom).
whistleblower: motherwooper...
whistleblower: it's not time to get logs yet
Rotom used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Gorebyss lost 90% of its health.
Banedon's Gorebyss fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
whistleblower: cress is still here and so is Pz
Banedon: I forgot if I EV'ed to beat Scarf Rotom in the rain
Banedon: zzz
Banedon switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
whistleblower switched in Aggron (lvl 100 Aggron ?).
Ludicolo used Surf.
It's super effective!
Aggron lost 100% of its health.
whistleblower's Aggron fainted.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
whistleblower switched in Venomoth (lvl 100 Venomoth ?).
Ludicolo used Surf.
Venomoth lost 100% of its health.
whistleblower's Venomoth fainted.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
whistleblower: kinda unprepared for rain
whistleblower switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Banedon: Yeah sorry =(
Banedon: If no Damp Rock though
Steinhauser: Rain shits all over all-choice teams apparently
Banedon: If no Damp Rock
whistleblower: yeah
Banedon: Ludicolo wouldn't sweep
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Ludicolo lost 52% of its health.
Ludicolo used Surf.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 100% of its health.
whistleblower's Arcanine fainted.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
whistleblower switched in Rotom (lvl 100 Rotom).
Banedon: Your entire team is choiced?!
Ludicolo used Surf.
Rotom lost 100% of its health.
whistleblower's Rotom fainted.
Banedon wins!

Some chat edited out. Again, if it weren't for Damp Rock, Ludicolo wouldn't have swept the entire team, although I'd probably have won regardless. gg!

PPPS: @ToF post #443 below - why does everyone blame me when the first person to make an inflammatory post after Stellar wrote that was Heysup =.= I was fully prepared to drop it when Stellar intervened, but no ...

 

[SJCrew]

Either way, it is generally regarded that gardevoir and especially golduck don't count as rain counters unless it can be shown that they aren't a liability outside of rain.

Here's a more concise assessment of your statement: "those aren't counters because I said so." lol

All Golduck needs to do is be a Water type with decent speed and special attack to be usable (and hey, it is). As a bonus, it gets to check Moltres (most of them run Modest these days and if they're not, it's easy to tell by how much damage they're dealing). It also has Cross Chop to run mixed for Chansey, and it won't care about slightly weaker Surf if it's still OHKOing stuff like Rhyperior and Donphan on a regular basis, as well as OHKOing Omastar and Kabutops with HP Grass.

Golduck is working out great for me, I really don't see any reason to discount it as an effective method to deal with rain teams when it has a considerable bonus in its favor with Cloud Nine, while still maintaining its usefulness as a general special attacker with a good enough movepool to take on anything UU can dish out.

 

[ToF]

Banedon, if you really want to argue over semantics, that's fine, but I really don't see the need to throw in a blatant jab at Heysup with, "Next time though remind me to make allowances for your English not being very good." We all know that Heysup can, and does, speak English well.

I realize people are probably getting restless and really have nothing to talk about in the absence of a playable "current" ladder, but please can everyone cool their jets at try to keep things civil?

Can you all fucking read this post, or do you want me to reinforce stellar's point with flames targeted at everyone that cannot read properly? You're all lucky that stellar isn't the type to get angry very fast, or he would have probably already succumbed to 'attacking' instead of 'arguing'.

I've already told flashbolt this once, stop arguing over minor points that don't make a difference in the grand scheme of things. He at least listened, now its your turn to listen Banedon. Seriously does anyone know how to argue anymore? You guys make the fucking Jerry Springer show look like civil arguments as on a debate team or something...

 

[capefeather]

I know that the best immediate solution is to let this drop altogether, but I think that some things just need to be made clear.

Let's say that someone says, "The reason Garchomp is so broken is solely because of Sand Veil." That doesn't mean that Sand Veil is the only quality that Garchomp has that makes it broken (lol Gliscor). Yes, it has all these other qualities, but the quote is arguing that Sand Veil pushes it over the edge. (Not saying that it's true, though.) In the same way, Ludicolo has many great qualities for a Rain team member, but (as Heysup argues) its defensive typing pushes it over the edge into being a staple.

It was all a simple misunderstanding. There was a context to the word "solely" that wasn't caught. The important thing is that the context could reasonably have been caught. Also, the "he started it" argument has to be one of the least mature responses to make.

Heysup is calling things out as "subjective and biased" because, well, they are subjective and biased. In psychology, experiments are done "double blind", meaning that even the experimenters don't know (but they can find out afterward) which samples are in the control/placebo group. This is done in an effort to eliminate unconscious rigging/misinterpretation of the results into what the experimenters want (I forgot the term for this suddenly). Pokémon battles aren't double blind studies. You know which team is "supposed" to work, and this inevitably colours your judgment when you pick and choose logs, even if you are merely picking prominent opponents. This is why using the first n matches in a row is the best way to go about this, even if even that method is flawed. Ultimately, you can pick at any battle.

Maybe I'll post Rain logs too, but honestly I don't see the point. One interesting point, though, is that when I first used it, it gave me the same awkward feeling that just about every other new team does.

 

[Reflect Suicune]

Been discussed before, very early on in the thread (or it may have been in the np:Can't touch this). Either way, it is generally regarded that gardevoir and especially golduck don't count as rain counters unless it can be shown that they aren't a liability outside of rain.
Gardevoir is a more interesting case study than Golduck. Perhaps p2 too.

This is only partially valid... is Blissey not a liability against teams without Special Attackers? Choice Scarfers against teams without offense? Stealth Rock against a team of 6 resists (it IS a liability, be it a small one, when you have a pokemon with 3 moves for the entire battle and you didn't really accomplish anything), I could go on and on with this list, but I'm sure you get the point: There will ALWAYS be liabilities on your team, that is just how Pokemon works. To dismiss valid checks and counters simply because they do not otherwise dominate the metagame is quite illogical. Porygon2 beats plenty of things it just doesn't get used because until now (before rain), it doesn't beat anything else signigicantly better.

And yes YaM I did mess up that calc. I was testing some calcs between Qwilfish and some random Water-type pokemon and i forgot to switch back to Waterfall (so those calcs were accidentally done with poison jab).

You'd be surprised at the number of ways you can find to stop rain teams when you're actually trying. It's not hard at all, people.

I could not agree more.

 

[flashbolt]

This is only partially valid... is Blissey not a liability against teams without Special Attackers? Choice Scarfers against teams without offense? Stealth Rock against a team of 6 resists (it IS a liability, be it a small one, when you have a pokemon with 3 moves for the entire battle and you didn't really accomplish anything), I could go on and on with this list, but I'm sure you get the point: There will ALWAYS be liabilities on your team, that is just how Pokemon works. To dismiss valid checks and counters simply because they do not otherwise dominate the metagame is quite illogical. Porygon2 beats plenty of things it just doesn't get used because until now (before rain), it doesn't beat anything else signigicantly better.

Thanks for the correction. I should write with more clarity. Still, i think you know what i meant.

 

[Heysup]

I know that the best immediate solution is to let this drop altogether, but I think that some things just need to be made clear.

Let's say that someone says, "The reason Garchomp is so broken is solely because of Sand Veil." That doesn't mean that Sand Veil is the only quality that Garchomp has that makes it broken (lol Gliscor). Yes, it has all these other qualities, but the quote is arguing that Sand Veil pushes it over the edge. (Not saying that it's true, though.) In the same way, Ludicolo has many great qualities for a Rain team member, but (as Heysup argues) its defensive typing pushes it over the edge into being a staple.

It was all a simple misunderstanding. There was a context to the word "solely" that wasn't caught. The important thing is that the context could reasonably have been caught. Also, the "he started it" argument has to be one of the least mature responses to make.

You deserve a medal.

Anyway, back to my initial argument about banning Rain vs Kabutops:

I think people should think about Rain more like they think about Spikes, although ironically I think Spikes are broken and Rain itself isn't.

Spikes allow for so many Pokemon to absolutely annihilate the metagame without opposition. This makes more than one Pokemon fulfill the offensive characteristic for the whole match (assuming we agree, just for the sake of this argument, that Spikes are "easy" enough to keep on the field). Moltres is our favorite example, but the truth is that there are many others that this applies to as well, such as Swellow, who removes like 20 of its counters after 1 U-turn and Spikes.

For rain, our only example is Kabutops, in my opinion. Kabutops is the only Pokemon that is actually fulfilling the offensive characteristic, and while Ludicolo is arguably just as good or better overall, it simply does not sweep as significant of a portion of the metagame.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm not sure why you consider Kabutops the "only example". Recall that the characteristic for BL is "sweeps through a significant portion of the metagame". Every Swift Swimmer does this. The average team doesn't consist of three or four water resists, nor should it. Your average team is going to have Milotic and Venusaur and that's it. All the other Pokemon on it will die to double STAB water attacks. When you consider that Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Kabutops, and Gorebyss can easily muscle through such a team, I don't see why we exclude Kabutops.

Going back to your spikes example, my (non-rain) teams typically have MUCH more trouble with Swellow than they do with Moltres. They also have problems with DD Feraligatr if more than two layers of spikes are down. This doesn't mean I say "Swellow is broken and Moltres is not", since I recognize that running a Flash Fire Pokemon and three Fire resists while having only one Rock type simply makes my team more vunerable to Swellow.

 

[whistle]

@ Heysup (#446)

I actually feel like that analogy supports the "ban rain" side of the argument more than the "ban Kabutops" side of the argument. the analogy is rain:Spikes:Moltres/Swellow/etc; assuming that Kabutops, Swellow, and Moltres aren't broken under standard conditions (i.e. no rain or Spikes), the supporting factor is what pushes them over the edge.

Kabutops may be the overall most dangerous sweeper once rain is set up, but that doesn't necessarily prove that it's the one at fault. just like some teams are more vulnerable to Moltres than Swellow, some teams (ones with Poliwrath or Quagsire especially) are probably more vulnerable to Ludicolo than Kabutops. Kabutops may be "better" than Ludicolo overall, but each has advantages and disadvantages over the other and there's no reason why being the "#1 threat" makes Kabutops the thing that is broken. it's hard to figure out whether "it's Kabutops' fault" or "it's Rain Dance's fault" when you consider something like rain sweepers where both factors work simultaneously but when you isolate them by adding them one at a time I think it shows that Rain Dance is what's at "fault". consider a rain team without Rain Dance. Kabutops is probably the best Pokemon out of the lot, but none of them are broken. now if we add Rain Dance, a whole host of them become potentially broken, but Kabutops and Ludicolo got the same exact boost from the addition of Rain Dance (rain even makes things like sweeper Gorebyss completely viable), which suggests the problem probably lies more with the rain than with Kabutops itself.

also, something to note is that rain synergizes with a much smaller subset of Pokemon than Spikes do due to the inherently small number of viable rain sweepers, while basically every offensive Pokemon benefits from the presence of Spikes. so there are lots of Pokemon that benefit from Spikes, and if you try to figure out which ones get the most benefit you probably come up with a list of a few Pokemon just because there's so many to pick from. if you do the same thing to rain, you might just get one Pokemon because you're starting off with such a smaller list.

 

[Heysup]

I'm not sure why you consider Kabutops the "only example". Recall that the characteristic for BL is "sweeps through a significant portion of the metagame". Every Swift Swimmer does this. The average team doesn't consist of three or four water resists, nor should it. Your average team is going to have Milotic and Venusaur and that's it. All the other Pokemon on it will die to double STAB water attacks. When you consider that Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Kabutops, and Gorebyss can easily muscle through such a team, I don't see why we exclude Kabutops.

I went through in either this thread or the megathread about how the other Pokemon are easily handled and how Kabutops isn't.

tl;dr: Kabutops sweeps through every scarfer, priority user, bulky waters, and bulky non-water-type Pokemon while the others are all stopped by at least two of those four (Ludicolo: bulky water (Slowbro), bulky non-waters, and priority, Qwilfish: Bulky waters, bulky non-waters, priority, Gorebyss: bulky waters, bulky non-waters, priority (less so than the other two though)). Kabutops smashes through basically everything.

@ Heysup (#446)

I actually feel like that analogy supports the "ban rain" side of the argument more than the "ban Kabutops" side of the argument. the analogy is rain:Spikes:Moltres/Swellow/etc; assuming that Kabutops, Swellow, and Moltres aren't broken under standard conditions (i.e. no rain or Spikes), the supporting factor is what pushes them over the edge.

Well I tried to make it clear that Spikes and Rain were essentially the same thing in the opposite situation. Easy Spikes are in the situation where it breaks several Pokemon, therefore it is the culprit, and Rain Dance is only broken by Kabutops, meaning Kabutops is the culprit. Deductive reasoning suggests this anyway.

Kabutops may be the overall most dangerous sweeper once rain is set up, but that doesn't necessarily prove that it's the one at fault. just like some teams are more vulnerable to Moltres than Swellow, some teams (ones with Poliwrath or Quagsire especially) are probably more vulnerable to Ludicolo than Kabutops. Kabutops may be "better" than Ludicolo overall, but each has advantages and disadvantages over the other and there's no reason why being the "#1 threat" makes Kabutops the thing that is broken. it's hard to figure out whether "it's Kabutops' fault" or "it's Rain Dance's fault" when you consider something like rain sweepers where both factors work simultaneously but when you isolate them by adding them one at a time I think it shows that Rain Dance is what's at "fault". consider a rain team without Rain Dance. Kabutops is probably the best Pokemon out of the lot, but none of them are broken. now if we add Rain Dance, a whole host of them become potentially broken, but Kabutops and Ludicolo got the same exact boost from the addition of Rain Dance (rain even makes things like sweeper Gorebyss completely viable), which suggests the problem probably lies more with the rain than with Kabutops itself.

How are Ludicolo, Qwilfish, and Gorebyss broken?

also, something to note is that rain synergizes with a much smaller subset of Pokemon than Spikes do due to the inherently small number of viable rain sweepers, while basically every offensive Pokemon benefits from the presence of Spikes. so there are lots of Pokemon that benefit from Spikes, and if you try to figure out which ones get the most benefit you probably come up with a list of a few Pokemon just because there's so many to pick from. if you do the same thing to rain, you might just get one Pokemon because you're starting off with such a smaller list.

And? What's wrong with finding the one broken Pokemon in Rain Dance and banning what's broken? The reason we wouldn't do this for Spikes is because it affects so many. When you have a situation like Spikes, it's pretty clear that Spikes is the culprit and not every individual Pokemon.

 

[FlareBlitz]

How is Ludicolo stopped by Slowbro? Max/Max+ Slowbro takes 85.3% - 100.5% from +2 Seed Bomb, which is a nearly 100% chance of an ohko after rocks. Kabutops requires rocks and some spikes to say the same, and Stone Edge might not even hit. Ludicolo is also not stopped by priority, because even things like Absol Sucker Punches require residual damage to kill it, and weaker priority like Hitmontop's Mach Punch or Tcroak's vwave especially simply will not do much damage. All of those kill Kabutops. Note also that Ludicolo quad resists Aqua Jet, which can otherwise fuck up Kabutops. It's really odd to me that you mention "handles priority" as a positive for Kabutops when in pretty much all my games I switch it the fuck out of any priority user barring Absol.

Regarding scarfers, as I already mentioned, Ludicolo outruns everything up to +95 scarfers. I personally have not seen a faster scarfer in a long, long time.

Additionally, the only "bulky non-waters" that stops Ludicolo and not Kabutops are Weezing (Kabutops has a chance to kill it at +2 after rocks while Ludicolo does not) and Registeel (same). In exchange, Ludicolo has a much easier time with Quaggy, Poliwrath and Tcroak, all of which give rain huge problems to begin with.

All this isn't to say that Ludicolo is "better" than Kabutops, because Kabutops' reliable power without setting up and access to Aqua Jet is very useful. But I wouldn't replace my Ludicolo with another Kabutops if given the opportunity, because it wins me at least as many games as Kabutops does.

Now, about the spikes thing. You said earlier that "people should think about spikes like they think about rain", but now it seems that you want people to think of rain in the opposite way that they think about spikes. That doesn't particularly make sense to me, because they actually are very similar. They both cause drastic increases in the sweeping ability of different Pokemon, and while some Pokemon can obviously make better use of this (Moltres/Swellow versus Mothim or something) it's difficult to determine which of those top-tier Pokemon is "more broken", because they have varying strengths and weaknesses.
The point of this being, I don't think Kabutops is sufficiently better (or better at all, really) than any other top-tier swift swimmer to be conclusively considered the "problem" with rain.

 

[Heysup]

How is Ludicolo stopped by Slowbro? Max/Max+ Slowbro takes 85.3% - 100.5% from +2 Seed Bomb, which is a nearly 100% chance of an ohko after rocks. Kabutops requires rocks and some spikes to say the same, and Stone Edge might not even hit. Ludicolo is also not stopped by priority, because even things like Absol Sucker Punches require residual damage to kill it, and weaker priority like Hitmontop's Mach Punch or Tcroak's vwave especially simply will not do much damage. All of those kill Kabutops. Note also that Ludicolo quad resists Aqua Jet, which can otherwise fuck up Kabutops. It's really odd to me that you mention "handles priority" as a positive for Kabutops when in pretty much all my games I switch it the fuck out of any priority user barring Absol.

Vacuum Wave from Toxicroak is irrelevant when you consider that Toxicroak beats Ludicolo anyway, EVEN with +2 (Ice Punch doesn't even OHKO with Stealth Rock 71.8% - 84.4%). And Ludicolo loses versus Hitmontop too: Fake Out does 33.4% - 39.4% and Mach Punch does 50% - 58.9%. The combination does 83.4%-98.3%. That's usually a OHKO with Stealth Rock, and guaranteed with one round of Life Orb recoil. Not to mention you aren't setting up Swords Dance for free.

And the only Pokemon who's Aqua Jet is really threatening is CB Azumarill who OHKOes both of them with Waterfall and Double Edge respectively anyway after it survives Life Orb Seed Bomb and Stone Edge easily.

You also forgot Pokemon like Arcanine, Scyther, and Swellow who rely on Normal-type priority which definitely takes its toll on Ludicolo while Kabutops shrugs it off. But that's not too relevant to my original point.

I never said it "takes priority better", I said it sweeps through it when the others cannot. Kabutops can sweep through Absol (the deadliest priority user at the moment) and other priority users that severely weaken the other Rain sweepers. The Pokemon it loses too via priority beat the other Rain sweepers anyway, as well. I don't want to stray to far from using "common and not specialized priority users", so basically my main examples are Absol, Arcanine, and Swellow.

Regarding scarfers, as I already mentioned, Ludicolo outruns everything up to +95 scarfers. I personally have not seen a faster scarfer in a long, long time.

This is true, but there are a select few scarfers who outpace Ludicolo so I felt I was justified in including it.

I have definitely seen Scarf Zam, Sceptile (needs timid to outpace Kabutops, who could run Jolly if you want to bring that up), Raikou, Typhlosion, and Drapion used. You should also consider Scarf Froslass and Uxie since they often run Trickscarf. This isn't "many", but I think it's still enough to consider that Ludicolo can be stopped by certain Scarfers that are used at least a little bit.

Additionally, the only "bulky non-waters" that stops Ludicolo and not Kabutops are Weezing (Kabutops has a chance to kill it at +2 after rocks while Ludicolo does not) and Registeel (same). In exchange, Ludicolo has a much easier time with Quaggy, Poliwrath and Tcroak, all of which give rain huge problems to begin with.

What about Venusaur who is never OHKOed by Ice Punch and is usually OHKOed by Stone Edge?

There is also a similar situation with SubSeed Sceptile, and Leaf Storm variants will nail Ludicolo hard with an Overgrow boosted Leaf Storm.

My main point about Kabutops is that it doesn't need to take attacks because of Aqua Jet, higher attack, and superior Speed. Once you start taking hits, even if you have better defensive typing, you are going to go down much more often then something that can OHKO more Pokemon and avoid faster revenge killers.

All this isn't to say that Ludicolo is "better" than Kabutops, because Kabutops' reliable power without setting up and access to Aqua Jet is very useful. But I wouldn't replace my Ludicolo with another Kabutops if given the opportunity, because it wins me at least as many games as Kabutops does.

The point of this being, I don't think Kabutops is sufficiently better (or better at all, really) than any other top-tier swift swimmer to be conclusively considered the "problem" with rain.

I'm not even going to bother suggesting Kabutops is "sufficiently better", and I never really have suggested this overall. What I am suggesting is that Kabutops is the only thing fulfilling the offensive Characteristic. While Ludicolo excels at being a great switch in for bulky Waters, Grass attacks, Ground Attacks, and Electric attacks, (among other things), I am simply trying to say that Kabutops is simply sweeps a more "significant portion of the metagame".

Now, about the spikes thing. You said earlier that "people should think about spikes like they think about rain", but now it seems that you want people to think of rain in the opposite way that they think about spikes. That doesn't particularly make sense to me, because they actually are very similar. They both cause drastic increases in the sweeping ability of different Pokemon, and while some Pokemon can obviously make better use of this (Moltres/Swellow versus Mothim or something) it's difficult to determine which of those top-tier Pokemon is "more broken", because they have varying strengths and weaknesses.

I don't actually believe you think I want people to think that it's the opposite because what I said does make sense, but I will admit I didn't exactly word it the best.

As I said in my previous post: "Spikes and Rain are the same thing, but they are both in the complete opposite situation". Spikes is in the situation where it breaks a significant portion of the metagame. Rain, on the other hand, breaks only Kabutops (for the sake of this argument lets assume he is broken). This means Easy Spikes are broken, not Moltres, Swellow, DDGatr, etc. becuse of its ability to break many Pokemon as opposed to Rain which has one Pokemon broken under its effect.

If we can agree on this, then the big question would be "Is Kabutops really the only thing broken / is it broken at all?".