This was what i was thinking. Bite is needed for sure to deal with ghosts. Beat up is too unreliable i feel especially after 1 or 2 of your pokemon are fainted. I am thinking superfang may be your best option as a 4th move. Trailblaze will probably be best if you really need something against rock types, as since vs bulky waters unless its a 4x weakness population bomb is still better. And i think super fang would do just as much if not more damage vs most rock types at full health, and then you can probably population bomb them from their to kill them or get close, or use bite.
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Pokémon Maushold
- Thread starter StarFalcon555
- Start date
This was what i was thinking. Bite is needed for sure to deal with ghosts. Beat up is too unreliable i feel especially after 1 or 2 of your pokemon are fainted. I am thinking superfang may be your best option as a 4th move. Trailblaze will probably be best if you really need something against rock types, as since vs bulky waters unless its a 4x weakness population bomb is still better. And i think super fang would do just as much if not more damage vs most rock types at full health, and then you can probably population bomb them from their to kill them or get close, or use bite.
Never thought that these bunch of funny aah mice would convince me to actually step in on the competitive scene after years of lurking but sure why not! Now my current passion has been building teams around them and watch these idiots sweep literally everything in sight. (Well once its checks have been removed, of course hhahhahhaa a ah a)
I almost thought we were gonna get the second coming of Cinccino but boy am I glad Pop. Bomb works like Triple Axel. Bite is almost mandatory in every set though if you don't want to get completely walled by Ghosts, that or you have Chi-Yu in your team which deals with both that and the steels it wants removed. (may or may not need scarf)
Early games had me trying out Magnezone with it to dispatch steels but. Man it's. Not Good Right Now. 50% of teams either run Gholdengo, Corvi or both, and the former's ghost type flips the bird at Magnet Pull while the latter can U-turn out to something that then earthquakes Zone and it instantly dies.
This 'mon really loves subs for Tidy Up setup too - and I preferred Orthworm over Cyclizar because it's so slow and fat that it usually can get Maushold in safely while avoiding for the sub to get yeeted immediately on entry and then for the mice to immediately dissolve into sand because hello Mach Punch.
If you run Tidy Up you generally can ditch Trailblaze, but if you don't it can still find merit to smack some bulky water and pretend to setup and pray the foe's Chien-Pao isn't scarfed or something. (No, it does not die to Ice Shard, even if Terabanded.)
Found Garganacl to be terrifying against the mice too - it shrugs off both a Tera-boosted PB and its coverage, blocks Thunder Wave, clicks Iron Defense 3 trillion times, and then Body Presses the mice to the nether realms. Encoring it to ID and Taunting it could work???????? question mark????????? but I have yet to use taunt kits, might try that next time. Meowscarada I think is also to watch out for since it naturally outspeeds Maus and can knock off its Lens - and now all you have is a sad bunch of useless lab rats.
Overall though even if my chaotic family is completely one-dimensional the sheer satisfaction I get at sweeping teams with these sanrio-looking mf when I get the opportunity to is just so good.
Also Rocky Helmet is a war crime. Bring your own nights into dreams catto.
I almost thought we were gonna get the second coming of Cinccino but boy am I glad Pop. Bomb works like Triple Axel. Bite is almost mandatory in every set though if you don't want to get completely walled by Ghosts, that or you have Chi-Yu in your team which deals with both that and the steels it wants removed. (may or may not need scarf)
Early games had me trying out Magnezone with it to dispatch steels but. Man it's. Not Good Right Now. 50% of teams either run Gholdengo, Corvi or both, and the former's ghost type flips the bird at Magnet Pull while the latter can U-turn out to something that then earthquakes Zone and it instantly dies.
This 'mon really loves subs for Tidy Up setup too - and I preferred Orthworm over Cyclizar because it's so slow and fat that it usually can get Maushold in safely while avoiding for the sub to get yeeted immediately on entry and then for the mice to immediately dissolve into sand because hello Mach Punch.
If you run Tidy Up you generally can ditch Trailblaze, but if you don't it can still find merit to smack some bulky water and pretend to setup and pray the foe's Chien-Pao isn't scarfed or something. (No, it does not die to Ice Shard, even if Terabanded.)
Found Garganacl to be terrifying against the mice too - it shrugs off both a Tera-boosted PB and its coverage, blocks Thunder Wave, clicks Iron Defense 3 trillion times, and then Body Presses the mice to the nether realms. Encoring it to ID and Taunting it could work???????? question mark????????? but I have yet to use taunt kits, might try that next time. Meowscarada I think is also to watch out for since it naturally outspeeds Maus and can knock off its Lens - and now all you have is a sad bunch of useless lab rats.
Overall though even if my chaotic family is completely one-dimensional the sheer satisfaction I get at sweeping teams with these sanrio-looking mf when I get the opportunity to is just so good.
Also Rocky Helmet is a war crime. Bring your own nights into dreams catto.
Why are people suggesting Trailblaze and Bullet Seed over Low Kick?
For those curious, here is my math on why Wide Lens is just needed for Maushold. Let me know if I've gotten something off here but from these calcs you get an extra 61% from having the item, which just can't compete with anything else.
Two things - Both are boosted by Technician and hit Ghosts :)
But do not hit Steels.
Also, if Low Kick isn't boosted by Technician, it has at least 80 power anyway, and likely more due to the typical weight of Rock-types and Steel-types.
Population Bomb on Maushold is disproportionately stronger than the rest of its movepool such that Immunities are often the only thing you'd click other moves for.
Assuming 10 hits w/ Wide Lens, Technician Pop Bomb hits for 450 BP after STAB. Cut in half to 225 BP on a singular resist, that is still far stronger than basically any coverage move will (reliably) hit for (Technician Bite on Ghosts is effectively 180 BP, so weaker but necessary because of the Immunity). For Maushold to prefer a move over Population Bomb requires the Mon to have a Quad Resist (which means Rock/Steel so lol) or a Ghost Type Immunity (which obviously doesn't advantage Low Kick anyway). This all on top of the consideration that PB is high power to compensate their low Attack, on top of committing to Wide Lens instead of a Boosting item.
The Mice are a Gimmick in OU, but you gotta go whole hog on the gimmick to get them mileage.
You severely overestimate Maushold. A 450-BP move does not break past decently bulky resistances (which will often be fairly heavy) on something with 75 base Attack. If you do not believe me, run damage calculations or actually use Maushold.
That's not the point I'm making. The point the BP comparison was to illustrate is that Population Bomb is disproportionately stronger than anything else this mon can click that in whatever tier you try to battle with it, it's going to click its coverage moves maybe 2% of the time it's attacking. Nowhere did I say the Mon was strong with the move, I was pointing out that it was extremely weak in most other aspects because the High BP of this move was being (over)compensated for.
Put another way, consider the Low Kick suggestion. Low Kick with anything less than 120 BP is weaker on a 2x weakness than Population Bomb is on a 2x resistance (120 BP hits 240 BP vs 225 BP for resisted Bomb). It's not hitting that much harder while coming off of the already-cited Weak stats.
For Low Kick to be a preferable move requires all of the following
- Hit for its 60 BP threshold or greater (so effectively 80 BP minimum since 60 gets Technician). This part is pretty reasonable since Rock and Steels, if not most Pokemon in general, will be 25 kg or heavier.
- Resistance to Population Bomb (so at least one of Steel or Rock Type)
- A quad Weakness to Fighting (Limited to mostly-unviable Rock/Steel Mons, Alolan Sandslash, and the Bisharp line)
- Not a Ghost-Type (since that just entails an immunity to both moves anyway)
The pool of things Low Kick will hit significantly harder than Population Bomb is so narrow that Maushold's extremely meager performance isn't much improved by running it. Maybe in the inevitable NU this Mon drops to the above targets will be more common, but for those trying to use this thing for D-Rank fun right now, it's not a remotely efficient use of a moveslot.
I mentioned this before in this thread but the design of this mon is basically a Baby Bootleg version of Dracovish (as in it works on the same principle even if it is significantly less impactful before my point gets misconstrued as in the first reply): You click one move virtually every turn it attacks (Fisheous Rend/Population Bomb), and if you ever click another move, it's because your main one literally cannot do anything to the target and this one will(Water Absorb or Ghosts respectively).
While the maths behind this post are correct, i think they are a bit misleading. Wide lens provide a 61% boost in average, but that does not mean it will always be better than Choice Band, even though Choice Band does less damages in average, and this is because an other factor has to be taken into account : the variance (I'll explain what this is later in the post, do not worry)
First of all, it should be mentionned that the odds for Choice Band to do more damages than Wide Lens is around 46%. This means that, each time you click Wide Lens Population bomb, there is a 46% chance you would have done more damages if Maushold had the Choice Band item. This makes sense since Choice Band does less damages in average.
Let X the number of hits Population Bomb does with Wide Lens, and Y the number of hits Population Bomb does without any items.
Then we can write:
P(n ⩽ X) is the probability that X is greater or equal to n.
P(n = X) is the probability that X is equal to n.
P(n ⩽ Y) and P(n = Y) work the same way.
We want to compute P(X ⩽ 1.5*Y) - The idea being that one Choice Band Population Bomb hit is 1.5 times stronger than a Wide Lens Population Bomb hit. As X and Y are two independents events, we can use the following formula:
P(X ⩽ 1.5*Y) = Sum(n, from 0 to 10, P( X ⩽ 1.5*n)*P(Y = n))
Which i computed thanks to a Python script. Pay attention to the P( X ⩽ 1.5*n) part, as X is an integer, while 1.5*n is not.
Then we can write:
P(n ⩽ X) is the probability that X is greater or equal to n.
P(n = X) is the probability that X is equal to n.
P(n ⩽ Y) and P(n = Y) work the same way.
We want to compute P(X ⩽ 1.5*Y) - The idea being that one Choice Band Population Bomb hit is 1.5 times stronger than a Wide Lens Population Bomb hit. As X and Y are two independents events, we can use the following formula:
P(X ⩽ 1.5*Y) = Sum(n, from 0 to 10, P( X ⩽ 1.5*n)*P(Y = n))
Which i computed thanks to a Python script. Pay attention to the P( X ⩽ 1.5*n) part, as X is an integer, while 1.5*n is not.
So, what does Choice Band bring to the table over Wide Lens?
In a nutshell, Choice Band is higher risk but higher reward compared to Wide Lens. Even though there is a higher risk if you run Choice Band, it can also potentially do much more damages. This is comparable to some extent to moves that have a higher base power but reduced accuracy.(Focus Blast vs Aura Sphere, Ice Beam vs Blizzard, etc.) In other words, Wide Lens Population damages will be in average closer to their average damage than how close Choice Band damages are to their own average. (= Choice Band has a higher variance than Wide Lens)
Considering that the odds for Choice Band to make better damages than Wide Lens are very close to a coinflip (46%), and that Wide Lens is not that stronger than Choice Band in average (1.61/1.5 = 1.07 times stronger), I think Choice Band is worth thinking about. In some scenarios it can even have higher odds to score an OHKO against certain stuff, thanks to the higher variance and the larger amount of damages it is possible to do with Choice Band.
I mean, Choice Band also makes it so you can't really use Tidy Up, so I'd rather Wide Lens.
Gravity gives a 1.705x bonus (ie another 10% from base) while allowing you to hold Protective Pads to deal with the extremely splashable Rocky Helmet hardcountering you.
Dare I say it, this is endgame. Population Bomb becoming a 100% safe click means the behemoth of power known as Maushold (or rather, 300 BP Population Bomb before STAB and Tera) becomes impossible to truly counter, and that makes it an extremely menacing force to the entire meta. Even Ghosts can't switch in due to coverage in Technician-boosted Bite or Thief. (the latter becoming an important option in the scenario Pads get knocked off, as it still allows you to deal with Rocky Helmet)
And while it is on a timer, it's very easy to just refresh said timer in order to get the full benefit again, and Gravity just so happens to be amazing support for the likes of Great Tusk (allowing it to deal with Tera Flying Roaring Moon, have something for Dragonite, and OHKO Balloon Gholdengo) and Chi-Yu. (making Fire Blast reliable and giving it on average a 1.175x boost)
Oh yeah, and that's without mentioning the access to sleep moves that many viable mons have, including Azumarill, Skeledirge, Gengar, Blissey, and most importantly Iron Valiant. (?!!! yes, it really becomes able to shut down anything with perfect accuracy Hypnosis)
And although this is mostly relevant to Natdex OU due to the only reliable OU setter being Masquerain (C+), I should also mention the synergy with Sticky Webs that have received a massive buff since last gen thanks to Good as Gold blocking Defog.
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How does Masquerain learn Gravity? I checked Serebii and can't find any info on it there
Garchomp
I was talking about Masquerain learning Sticky Web, apologies it that was vague.
Bruh, your pads???
If Gravity was good, it would be a mainstay in every generation. It's not. Do the math.
Apologies if it's blunt, but Population Bomb having been introduced this gen, this argument is null.
But guess what, Gravity+Sing Evopass is the reason Baton Pass got banned in gen 7 Ubers. I believe this is plenty proof it can be good when you use it right.
Here on top of its use in turning Hypnosis into a better Spore (perfect accuracy sleep on fast mons being the reason sleep moves are completely banned in many OMs like AAA/STABmons/BH/MnM anyway), it also lets the Protective Pad variant of an already powerful move get a 1.7x bonus, which combines extremely well with Maushold's excellent speed tier and can be further bolstered by terastal.
Consider if Population Bomb did not make contact, would Maushold be Ubers? Yes, it definitely would. Gravity enables such a scenario, hence why it seems extremely overlooked and just waiting to become the next big trend.
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Comparing Maushold to Baton Pass is just plain stupid, like Christ. The gimmick is dumb, and Gravity Protective Pads isn't taking Maushold out of D Rank. And no, Maushold is not Ubers if Population Bomb was non contact, since that doesn't stop Maushold from being revenge killed by priority, certain Scarfers or Booster Energy users due to it's pathetic bulk.
You're missing the point hard, here.
Max hits Maushold hits
In a fresh new meta with little stuff banned, this appears unremarkable, but once we hit standards closer to last gen's, this is absolutely terrifying. Of course Population Bomb does make contact innately, so we won't see Maushold getting banned so easily. (and I myself agree it's decent at best and never banworthy)
But I myself, lost the point. Mea culpa. Originally I only wanted to point out there actually was an alternative to Wide Lens in OU, which, I concede it is unlikely to change anyway. What it can however change, is Natdex. This is an entirely different matter, but the quality of Gravity and Sticky Web setters here is much higher with the likes of Lando-T and Shuckle, and those just so happen to make Maushold capable of not being outsped by what you mentioned. And again, they're even more potent this gen with Gholdengo around.
Someone had to point it out, so I did.
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I think the problem with Gravity is that in OU, there aren't really any notable gravity or web setters right now which is why Wide Lens is the only super viable item choice on Maus. Pads and Choice Band Maus are neat options but the inconsistency on Pop Bomb kinda kills me from trying either since we lack good, flexible gravity setters. However, I do agree that in NatDex, Pads or even Band Maushold could definitely work just because good pokemon like Lando-T get Gravity so Pop Bomb just becomes amazing despite Normal's ass offensive capabilities. Hell, I might try building a NatDex team with them right now. There is of course the issue with having to get Gravity set up over and over again (since Pads Pop Bomb is inconsistent), and then getting Maus back in without it dying, but I definitely see merit to the idea if you can keep momentum.
Once the Normal resistances/immunities are out of the way Maushold is just ridiculous for a pokemon with such low attack. It's comparable to if Cincinno had Huge Power, if you get lucky with Population Bomb hits like a nuke every turn. Maushold does has some merits with Tidy Up as well, but overall it's pretty poor and one dimensional.
It's me again, the Maushold enthusiast!
After tinkering about with teams, I found that Indeedee-F is a pretty fun partner for Maushold!
Access to Psychic Surge + Dual Screens is a pretty nice combination that goes well with Tidy Up sets. Not only it helps the mice set up with more safety, but it also means the terrain protects Maushold from revenge killers like Mach Punch Breloom or Sucker Punch Chien-Pao. This also means you might be able to run Tera-Dark more safely to dispatch common answers such as Gholdengo and Dragapult - In particular, Pult is outsped by, and dies to a +1 Tera-Dark Bite from Maushold, and it also 2HKO's Gholdengo.
Psychic Terrain also prevents Grimmsnarl, common lead, from taunting dee due to gaining priority on status moves from Prankster. Which means all you need to do is set up dual screens, bring up the mice, Tidy Up some, and then start demolishing everything. Of course, the Rocky Helmet problem still remains and some odd Pokémon might run Brick Break or some other thing, but hey, even the lil' mice can't be good at everything.
Even so, it is my duty to keep on using the goofy aah mice and soon become the Maushold Meister. Have you guys found any other good partners for Maushold too?
---
EDIT: Rather than double-posting, I'll add a few replays where the Maus swept as well as my most successful Maushold build so far:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763416689
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1767226185
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1765828756
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763668325
The Maushold Build:
Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
Encore is perhaps Maushold's most useful tool to deter SD setup sweepers and ID Garganacl from doing much. It naturally outspeeds a good chunk of setup sweepers, too, which allows the Sanrio family to lock them in an Encore loop while it sets itself up with Tidy Up. Tera-Dark +1 Bite outspeeds and OHKO's Dragapult, and also 2HKO's Gholdengo (OHKO on Nasty Plot Ghold if you manage to get two Tidy Ups in.) Truly a terrifying force, if still gimmicky.
After tinkering about with teams, I found that Indeedee-F is a pretty fun partner for Maushold!
Access to Psychic Surge + Dual Screens is a pretty nice combination that goes well with Tidy Up sets. Not only it helps the mice set up with more safety, but it also means the terrain protects Maushold from revenge killers like Mach Punch Breloom or Sucker Punch Chien-Pao. This also means you might be able to run Tera-Dark more safely to dispatch common answers such as Gholdengo and Dragapult - In particular, Pult is outsped by, and dies to a +1 Tera-Dark Bite from Maushold, and it also 2HKO's Gholdengo.
Psychic Terrain also prevents Grimmsnarl, common lead, from taunting dee due to gaining priority on status moves from Prankster. Which means all you need to do is set up dual screens, bring up the mice, Tidy Up some, and then start demolishing everything. Of course, the Rocky Helmet problem still remains and some odd Pokémon might run Brick Break or some other thing, but hey, even the lil' mice can't be good at everything.
Even so, it is my duty to keep on using the goofy aah mice and soon become the Maushold Meister. Have you guys found any other good partners for Maushold too?
---
EDIT: Rather than double-posting, I'll add a few replays where the Maus swept as well as my most successful Maushold build so far:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763416689
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1767226185
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1765828756
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763668325
The Maushold Build:
Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
Encore is perhaps Maushold's most useful tool to deter SD setup sweepers and ID Garganacl from doing much. It naturally outspeeds a good chunk of setup sweepers, too, which allows the Sanrio family to lock them in an Encore loop while it sets itself up with Tidy Up. Tera-Dark +1 Bite outspeeds and OHKO's Dragapult, and also 2HKO's Gholdengo (OHKO on Nasty Plot Ghold if you manage to get two Tidy Ups in.) Truly a terrifying force, if still gimmicky.
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b e
It's me again, the Maushold enthusiast!
After tinkering about with teams, I found that Indeedee-F is a pretty fun partner for Maushold!
Access to Psychic Surge + Dual Screens is a pretty nice combination that goes well with Tidy Up sets. Not only it helps the mice set up with more safety, but it also means the terrain protects Maushold from revenge killers like Mach Punch Breloom or Sucker Punch Chien-Pao. This also means you might be able to run Tera-Dark more safely to dispatch common answers such as Gholdengo and Dragapult - In particular, Pult is outsped by, and dies to a +1 Tera-Dark Bite from Maushold, and it also 2HKO's Gholdengo.
Psychic Terrain also prevents Grimmsnarl, common lead, from taunting dee due to gaining priority on status moves from Prankster. Which means all you need to do is set up dual screens, bring up the mice, Tidy Up some, and then start demolishing everything. Of course, the Rocky Helmet problem still remains and some odd Pokémon might run Brick Break or some other thing, but hey, even the lil' mice can't be good at everything.
Even so, it is my duty to keep on using the goofy aah mice and soon become the Maushold Meister. Have you guys found any other good partners for Maushold too?
---
EDIT: Rather than double-posting, I'll add a few replays where the Maus swept as well as my most successful Maushold build so far:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763416689
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1767226185
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1765828756
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763668325
The Maushold Build:
Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
Encore is perhaps Maushold's most useful tool to deter SD setup sweepers and ID Garganacl from doing much. It naturally outspeeds a good chunk of setup sweepers, too, which allows the Sanrio family to lock them in an Encore loop while it sets itself up with Tidy Up. Tera-Dark +1 Bite outspeeds and OHKO's Dragapult, and also 2HKO's Gholdengo (OHKO on Nasty Plot Ghold if you manage to get two Tidy Ups in.) Truly a terrifying force, if still gimmicky.
[/QUOT
beat up is better