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Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread-v3.3600661/ take it here if you want fam
You are also more than welcome to talk about Pidgeot in OU here as well.
Sadly many players are very adamant about tornadus being better than mega pidgeot. While hurricane can't miss for it, pidgeot still does take that Mega slot. Main build for it is usually the work up wallbreaking build that it has over tornadus.
What do you guys think about a future impact of Mega Heracross, Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie? Do you think that they, alonside Mega medicham, will outclasses Mega Metagross like in ORAS OU?
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Nothing's going to outclass Mega Metagross, as nothing really does what it does better, or even quite as well. Lopunny and Diancie I expect will have their place in the meta, but I don't think they're going to straight out dethrone Metagross, rather they'll add more worthwhile competition for the Mega slot, which right now competes mostly between Metagross, Mawile, Medicham, and the occasional Scizor for a bulky answer to Metagross (outside Stall which obviously favors Sableye).
I don't think so...Mega Diancie, with the Megas buff, can run Rock/Fairy/Fire/Ground coverage, wich is awesome. Plus the same speed tier of Mega Metagross and a passable bulk. The Diamond Storm buff will help it a lot too, now that it gets a +2 in Defense 50% of the time.
Mega Lopunny, unlike Metagross, can help the team with a little support, like Healing Wish and Subs+Baton Pass, while still having a good damage output:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 248-292 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 261-307 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 420-494 (130 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nothing even outclassed Metagross in ORAS so I don't know where this assumption is coming from. The only thing that would hurt Mega Meta with the addition of Lop and Diancie in the tier is more competition for the mega slot, but it would still be just as good. In fact, Diancie being around would actually be beneficial to Gross' already high levels of viability because of how solid of a check it is to it, and Lop doesn't even come close to OHKOing a healthy Mega Meta. The calcs you posted don't really prove anything against Mega Metagross, so I'm unsure of what their purpose is. Nothing will change the fact that Mega Meta is a splashable Mega that has very limited defensive counterplay outside of stall/Mega Scizor teams, and offensively it's fast and bulky enough to where it isn't even easy to revenge kill. Unlike other offensively based Megas, it also has fantastic defensive synergy which lets it pivot into Lele, Latios, Bulu, Magearna, etc. Just because Mega Meta might be used less in favor of other Megas, doesn't mean it will be any less good, especially considering that Mega Meta is always the Mega you want to use before anything else most of the time.
Eh, most Steels don't really wall it reliably anymore because of the mega Speed buff. Because it doesn't have to run Protect anymore, it can essentially run w/e the fuck it wants in the last slot. Moonblast / Diamond Storm / HP Fire / Earth Power will probably be the standard just because it maximizes coverage vs Steels; OHKOing Zone and Heatran is really nice as well as dealing solid damage to Pex, Metagross, and Magearna. I think Max Attack variants will be better this gen because of how dangerous Rock STAB is atm, and with 252 EVs, you are able to 2HKO SpD Steela after SR, which is incredible, as well as other stuff like Amoonguss, Fini, etc. Pressuring Chansey is also great. Still, there are other options you can run in the 4th slot too, which makes it pretty versatile. It can be used as an offensive rocker that beats Mega Sableye which is huge (trapped by Duggy but what isn't tbh) or something like Rock Polish to sweep late game. I think it's going to be a pretty stupid mon in all honesty. I know it's all theorymon, but it's just another huge threat to prepare for that is going to have limited defensive counterplay. It was crazy good in ORAS and that was with the restriction of running Protect, and now with the Mega buff and Diamond Storm being more spammable, it just sounds like a headache. Speaking of which, with Diamond Storm having a high chance to give Diancie +2 Defense, it could prevent Pokemon such as Mega Scizor from revenge killing it with BP, and thus losing to it 1v1 because of HP Fire. Just something to keep in mind lol.
when I said about a possible impact on Mega Metagross viability, I was talking about the ranks (Metagross was A- in ORAS, while Lopunny, Medicham and Diancie was A+, followed by Heracross in A). I know that the fact that it can come in Tapu Lele's face almost freely is a huge thing l, but I also think that it can drop from the S rank with those new Megas.
Oh, and I also think that Mega Gardevoir is a bit superior than Lele :p
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232 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 72-84 (23.9 - 27.9%) -- 90.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 78-93 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
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232 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 27-32 (8.9 - 10.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 34-40 (11.2 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
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And of course the matchup is just for a demonstration of power.
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I think Mega Lopunny will be better in this meta, as Slowbro and Mew are much rarer now, Tapu Lele means priority moves are less threatening, and it would be the 2nd fastest unboosted Pokémon in the tier after Mega Alakazam (and technically Aero, but that isn't used enough to be considered OU). The new mega evolution mechanics would also mean it could have that epic Speed right from turn one, so Fake Out wouldn't be as necessary, although it would likely still be a good option for it. Last gen it was a great choice if you wanted an anti-offense Pokémon, and I think it will be even better in SuMo.
Just my thoughts.
Just my thoughts.
Priority+STAB is a great thing for Mega Lopunny, just like with Mega Medicham (without STAB, of course). Chip damage against frail things is nice.
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252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 94-112 (32.9 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 238-282 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 78-93 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 117-138 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 97-115 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 76.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 246-289 (79 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 78-93 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- 25.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I wish that AT LEAST they give us the Mega Stone for Heracross, taking into account that Mega Pidgeot and Mega Steelix follow a numeral order in the Pokédex. If my logic is correct, the next Mega Stones should be for Ampharos and Heracross. Let's see what is the surprise in the first friday of May (yeah, every first friday of the month they give us some Mega Stones).
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Mega Gardevoir is probably going to be 100% dead when it comes out since Specs Tapu Lele's Moonblast hits harder then Mega Gardevior's Hyper Voice, and so does Lele's psychic. Tapu Lele is just Tapu lele, it doesn't take up a mega slot for something that can't hit as hard, it doesn't only run one set, it can actually hold an item, and doesn't even go down to priority moves, so I don't know how Mega Gardevoir can be better then Tapu Lele in any way, its actually a lot worse.
232 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 193-228 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 237-279 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lopunny is going to be amazing now thanks to the speed buff. Outspeeding Koko and Ash-Gren off the start is amazing, and it lessens the need to run Fake Out. This opens up a lot more opportunities for it to do cool stuff. It can do PuP+Baton Pass, SubPass, Healing Wish, Encore, Thunder Wave or Toxic, or some combination of them.
Also, I've been trying Medicham on Webs offense and I highly encourage you guys to try it out. With the Web down, you'll outspeed Koko and Gren while running Adamant, meaning they are no longer good options to revenge kill Medicham. It necessitates priority or fast scarfers as the only things that are decent options to stop Medicham.
Also, I've been trying Medicham on Webs offense and I highly encourage you guys to try it out. With the Web down, you'll outspeed Koko and Gren while running Adamant, meaning they are no longer good options to revenge kill Medicham. It necessitates priority or fast scarfers as the only things that are decent options to stop Medicham.
Megagross hits harder than Lopunny with better bulk and tough claws, but Lopunny has perfect coverage with STABs and a better speed tier. Megagross will still be the go to choice, but Lopunny will have a niche, probably.
Megacross will have its place with Megawile and Megacham as ridiculous strong physical wallbreakers (hello, STAB Pin missile), offering a midground with better bulk than Megacham and better speed than Mawile but less attack than either.
Megacross will have its place with Megawile and Megacham as ridiculous strong physical wallbreakers (hello, STAB Pin missile), offering a midground with better bulk than Megacham and better speed than Mawile but less attack than either.
Of course Modest Specs Lele hits harder than Gard, but with this you loose the speed tier of it (while 95 isn't that good, it's passable) and will be restricted to use only one move. Gardevoir have a better speed tier and some "counter moves", like WoW for Mega Meta and Scizor, plus having a similar bulk (more than Lele in Sp.Def). And if you don't want to use this kind of moves, Gardevoir has Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball, just like Lele.
The difference between 95 and 100 isn't that big of a deal tbh, especially since Gardevoir runs Modest so you don't even tie with base 100s, all you get is outspeed the 90s and 95s without +Speed nature that Lele can't outspeed or even tie when running modest. Switching moves is nice but with Lele most of the time you'll drop everything with Psychic so that isn't exactly a drawback. The only thing Garde has going for it is Wisp I guess but even that requires prediction because Scizor could just ohko with bp and Metagross might not switch right into Gardevoir to avoid a Wisp
232 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 193-228 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 211-250 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 294-346 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 322-380 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 338-398 (107.9 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 372-438 (118.8 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The most used nature of Mega Gardevoir that I saw and used in ORAS was Timid, and thinking about the huge number of Zygardes 50%, Mega Medicham and some Specs Modest Lele, I think Timid will be better again. For a plus, Gard win the 1x1 with Lele.
232 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 186-219 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 180-213 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I used Timid Lele because Modest will be dead anyway.
So first of all, the new megas introduced into the tier probably won't make Mega Metagross drop from S rank. A lot has changed for it this gen. Mew and Slowbro have fallen off, a plethora of fodder for Megagross has been introduced like Magearna, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, etc, and the Mega Speed change now lets Megagross access its base 110 Speed stat turn 1. Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Heracross would give more competition for the mega slot, but none would greatly affect its viability. Metagross is a solid check to all three of them, actually.
Next, Mega Gardevoir is certainly inferior to Tapu Lele, and I'm not quite sure what sound argument there really is for that assertion.
Pros of Tapu Lele:
-Psychic Terrain
-Item Slot
-Non Mega
-Better physical bulk
Pros of Mega Gardevoir:
-Better speed
-Better special bulk
-Better base sp. attack
-Will-o-Wisp
If you're running Mega Gardevoir, you're not running Mega Metagross, Medicham, Mawile, or Scizor (or any others). You can run Tapu Lele alongside any of them (granted it's a bad idea with Mawile and Scizor but the other two synergize well with it) if you want. Tapu Lele also provides team support with Psychic Terrain, which is massive. It elevates the power of Psychic type moves to sky high levels (Tapu Lele's Psychic hits harder than Gardevoir's because of this, also Choice Specs Moonblast hits harder than Gardevoir's Hyper Voice) and blocks priority moves for Tapu Lele and the rest of the team. Tapu Lele is also free to run an item, and that can be Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Shed Shell, Twisted Spoon, or a Z Crystal, and all are viable. It also has better physical bulk, but that's not that relevant. Mega Gardevoir has higher base speed, but it's only 100, which isn't amazing. It has better special bulk, and sp. attack, but as stated earlier, Tapu Lele actually hits harder. The main niche it has over Lele is Will-o-Wisp to punish physical attackers, but is that really worth it when you can just run Tapu Lele + another mega and get better results?
Yeah, I think you're right. It's sad to think about how GameFreak kills good mons (hello my friend Talon).
Talking about Mew and Slowbro...Don't you think they will rise a bit because Mega Medicham? They give Mega Meta a little headache too, doesn't they?
They're actually not great ways to handle Mega Medicham sadly. Tapu Koko is one of the best partners with Medicham, and even without Koko, Adamant Medicham (which is notably better than Jolly for wallbreaking) actually busts through Mew with HJK after Stealth Rock damage, or with Electric-Terrain boosted Thunder Punch. Slowbro folds to an unboosted Thunder Punch (2HKO, and a 1/3 chance to OHKO after SR.
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 225-265 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 204-242 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 306-362 (77.8 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Well if you're running Mew for the sake of switching into Medi then might as well run max def so the calc should look like this: 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 163-192 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
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