Mega Evolutions

[Its_A_Random]

This thread will be tightly moderated to keep discussion focused/on topic/whatever.​

Okay so from what you can tell from a Tournament Match & several posts in Feedback what the problem is. A lack of codification on Mega Evolution rules has lead to conflict over what the actual mechanics are, & that is because the Mega Evolution rules tell us nothing on what exactly to do! :o

Mega Pokemon Clause is a new Clause in CAP ASB XY, and the battlers can set the number of Mega Pokemon they want to allow in a battle. (E.G. No Megas, 1 Mega, Unlimited Megas etc.) Mega Pokemon Stones are linked to the Pokemon specifically and, like in-game, are not subject to any item removal or suppression effects such as Trick, Switcheroo, Embargo, or Magic Room. Knock Off does not get the power boost on a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. In ASB, Mega Evolved Pokemon retain all of their base form's Abilities, and several Mega Pokemon that duplicate base form abilities have associated effects noted on their Mega Stone's Item Description. In Single Ability Battles, Mega Evolutions will have the ability of the Mega Evolution after Mega Evolving, but will retain any effects from the base form's ability (ex. a Moxie Pinsir that got an attack boost before Mega Evolving.)

A Pokemon can Mega Evolve on any action in a round under any condition (Except before the first action of a round), including Sleep, Freeze, or Taunt. Mega Evolution does not itself take up an action, and does not have an inherent Energy Cost (it may activate abilities that do, such as Drought or Sand Stream). Mega Evolution occurs before any other action takes place, regardless of priority (Pokemon will mega Evolve in the speed order of the Pokemon if multiple Pokemon are Mega Evolving). Mega Evolved Pokemon remain Mega Evolved for the duration of the battle once they have activated Mega Evolution. Mega Evolved Pokemon will act with the speed priority they had prior to Mega Evolving on the Mega Evolution action, but will act with their updated Speed in subsequent actions. Their ability will be in effect immediately (ex. Mega Charizard Y summoning Drought), as will the updated accuracy boost if they have a +Spe nature.

Mega Evolution can be used as part of a Chance Substitution if the Pokemon has not yet Mega-Evolved. (ex. Charizard Mega Evolve A2 if X uses Rain Dance A1)

So I guess we need a few discussion points to get the ball rolling...

• Mega Evolution on send-out: This goes against in-game precedent, & removes the art of surprise. There is another trivial issue involving doing this, before the opponent switch phases, before you counter-switch that will need to be resolved. In spite of that, should we allow this? If so, when should it happen? Why?
  
• Mega Evolutions vs. Substitutions: Okay so I schedule a Mega Evolution for A1, & create a non-push back substitution for some move. Then it triggers for A1. What happens to the Mega Evolution? Should my Pokémon mega evolve irrespective of the substitution, or does the Mega Evolution action get overridden & never occur? What should happen & why?
• Mega Evolution Syntax: Mega Evolve\n<action-string> (\n meaning new line for those who have never coded in C or whatever else uses it) is a subject of controversy due to inconsistency in allowance, primarily due to it not being actually tied to a particular action, unlike (Mega Evolve) <Action>. Should it be allowed as far as allowing a mega evolution is concerned? If so, should it be defaulted/tied/whatever to a particular action? Why?
  
• Mega evolved Pokémon fainting then reviving: So a trainer's Mega Pokémon has died & they have no mega evolutions left. Some crazy mechanic triggers & their Mega Pokémon is revived. Should it come back as their Mega Pokémon? If not, then should they be able to re-mega evolve if they have no mega evolutions left? In-game precedent says no to both, but should it be different in ASB? Why?

The ultimate goal of this thread is to have a concrete set of rules for Mega Evolution for the future that everyone knows & can understand. If there is any other topic regarding Mega Evolution you would like to bring up, this is the thread to do so.

General forum rules apply here, so no flaming/trolling etc., as it may result in your post being warned.

Otherwise, time to tackle this issue... @_@

 

[Frosty]

I feel that being able to Megavolve in every action of a round just opens up a can of worms. Just the implications on subs is enough to give me one hell of a headache.

Personally, I feel that megavolutions should happen at the begining of a round before anything else happens, necessarily before A1. With that, Megaevos won't be tied to an action (it will happen after stealth rock damage), so issues 2 and 3 would be solved, since:
a) If you sub for A1, A2 or A3, you won't affect megavos to begin with, since it will happen at (uuuuh) A0.
b) If you regard Megaevos as A0, the syntax would be irrelevant, since whether or not you write it together with another action, it will happen before them all.

For simplicity it works wonders and I have yet to see a reason for allowing megaevos mid-round, in spite of all the complications it brings.

For "1" I am indifferent (couldn't care less) and for "4" go with in-game, as there is no reason why not IMO.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

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I like what Frosty said.

But if we had to tie M'evo-ing into an action, then I see no reason why we shouldn't allow "ALWAYS [Mega Evolve on action X]" as a legit sub.

As for the other topics:

1) I would agree with the idea of in-game precedence here.
2) My 2 cents already covered this somewhat, but I guess that this should be allowed as well to give more options to Pokémon Mega Evolving.
3) I guess that another solution would be to have the Mega Evolution take place between actions. Then the Pokémon would have all the benefits of Mega evolution the following action without the headaches. But no Mega Evolving after a3 - that wouldn't fit into anything we know about the game.
4) I don't know in-game precedence here, but I see no good reason why the Pokémon should not come back Mega Evolved if that is the in-game precedence. It's not a new Mega-Evolved Pokémon, it's the same one that's come back for more rounds. (But not if there's a clause limiting how many Mega-Evolved Pokémon you can have at one time, and a M'evod Pokémon fainting would allow for a new Pokémon to Mega Evolve and that advantage is taken.)

 

[ZhengTann]

Gonna post another perspective.

The current Mega Clause in the quote tags are comprehensive enough, IMO, that we can fit in the possibility of Mega-Evolution being tied into a single action. There would be no problems in speed tiering (well, none that I can see yet), and it opens up avenues for tactics instead of ruling inconsistencies.

1. Since we have to equip upon send-out, any non-sleeping opponent will realise your intention to Mega-Evolve as soon as he/she read your Mega Stone equipped. Not knowing when you'd do so though, adds an extra layer to battling tactics (albeit one that may not be useful to the masses).
   
2. There's a line of syntax known as "push actions back", which I think can cover the Mega-Evolution as long as it is tied to the action aforementioned. Let's say [Mega-Evolve] Solarbeam > Fire Blast > Fire Blast. IF Hail is used A1 THEN replace A1 with Taunt and push remaining queue back. Activation of the sub would mean a new queue: Taunt > [Mega-Evolve] Solarbeam > Fire Blast. Simple as that. Or, Recover > Torment > Taunt. IF Trick Room is used THEN replace that action with [Mega-Evolve] Taunt and push actions back. Might work to overcome certain difficulties in, say, turn order?
   
3. Read 2 above.
   
4. Revival as a Mega-mon sounds about okay. I originally liked the idea of reviving as a normal mon, thus freeing up the slot, but then I remembered the prospect of dealing with, say, Mega-Lucario after I defeated Mega-Gardevoir only for my opponent to revive her up as a normal Gardevoir.

Of course, my perspective usually comes from in-anime possible logic, so here goes the "Red's Charizard versus Mewtwo in Origins" scene as an example of mid-battle Mega-Evolution. I'd like to quote Zar that in-anime precedence is a good route to choose, unless in-game precedence offers a better balance mechanics, which is what I, in my short-sightedness, may have missed here. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Frosty's idea is simplest and does not compromise flavor or precedent enough imo that we should not go with it. That's all I really have to say on the matter.

 

[LupusAter]

What about considering Mega-Evolutions as always happening on the action they are ordered, unless specifically stated otherwise in the sub? There are almost no situations in which MEvolving brings a distinct disadvantage to the Megamon, and those can be easily covered in the sub. It would keep the option of not MEvolving in the 1% of cases where it can be applicable, and avoid useless busywork in the other 99%.

 

[Mulan15262]

1. Mega-Evolve on send-out: I think that this should not be allowed. This would remove the element of surprise that it has (or otherwise is supposed to have). This also defies in-game precedent.
2. Mega-evolution + substitutions: I think that Mega-Evolution should be seperate from the orders. Meaning that if I have the orders "[Mega-Evolve]Bite-Tackle-Bite If the foe uses Protect, replace with Hyper Beam", and the foe uses Protect a1, I should still mega-evolve a1.
3. Mega-evolution syntax: I think that a command to mega-evolve without a tie to any action should mean mega-evolving a1, simply because that is what you would usually want.
4. Fainted Mega-evolved pokemon being revived: I do not have an opinion on this topic.

 

[Gerard]

I think we should just make [Megavolve] & the action itself separate from each other unless told otherwise by the trainer. We already do this in abilities that toggle like Sand Stream, where if I do [Sand Stream] Crunch and I use a Counter sub I'm still gonna use Sand Stream A1 unless I said so in my sub, the same could apply to Megavolving, where you 1) Megavolve A1 unless told an specific action were to megavolve & 2) Megavolve is done on the action were it's placed unless the trainer orders otherwise. I think this makes everything simple and avoids future misunderstandings.

 

[Dogfish44]

Discussion seems to be dying. Anyone who has a final position (ZhengTann, Frosty, others) would be much obliged to write out a final form of their desired way to handle mega evolutions, if not I'll try to write it up for the sake of voting.

48 Hour Warning

 

[ZhengTann]

Okay. First I'll c/p the original Handbook entry (as quoted by IAR on OP), and then I'll add my alterations in bold. Also strikethrough'ed some phrases that conflict with the concept of tying Mega Evolutions into a single action.

Mega Pokemon Clause is a new Clause in CAP ASB XY, and the battlers can set the number of Mega Pokemon they want to allow in a battle. (E.G. No Megas, 1 Mega, Unlimited Megas etc.) Mega Pokemon Stones are linked to the Pokemon specifically and, like in-game, are not subject to any item removal or suppression effects such as Trick, Switcheroo, Embargo, or Magic Room. Knock Off does not get the power boost on a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. In ASB, Mega Evolved Pokemon retain all of their base form's Abilities, and several Mega Pokemon that duplicate base form abilities have associated effects noted on their Mega Stone's Item Description. In Single Ability Battles, Mega Evolutions will have the ability of the Mega Evolution after Mega Evolving, but will retain any effects from the base form's ability (ex. a Moxie Pinsir that got an attack boost before Mega Evolving). If a Pokemon Mega-Evolves, it will use up one Mega slot, and the battler will be barred from further Mega Evolving if all Mega slots have been used up at that point in battle.

A Pokemon can Mega Evolve on any action in a round under any condition (Except before the first action of a round), including Sleep, Freeze, or Taunt. Mega Evolution must be tied to any single action, though it does not itself take up an action, and does not have an inherent Energy Cost (it may activate abilities that do, such as Drought or Sand Stream). Mega Evolution occurs before any other action takes place, regardless of priority (Pokemon will mega Evolve in the speed order of the Pokemon if multiple Pokemon are Mega Evolving). Mega Evolved Pokemon remain Mega Evolved for the duration of the battle once they have activated Mega Evolution, even if the Mega Evolved Pokemon fainted and is revived. Mega Evolved Pokemon will act with the speed priority they had prior to Mega Evolving on the Mega Evolution action, but will act with their updated Speed in subsequent actions. Their ability will be in effect immediately (eg. Mega Charizard Y summoning Drought), as will the updated accuracy boost if they have a +Spe nature.

Mega Evolution can be triggered when a battler posts his/her orders, specifying the action in which Mega Evolution takes place (eg. Thunderbolt > Thunderbolt > [Mega-Evolve] Outrage). Mega Evolution can be used as part of a Chance Substitution if the Pokemon has not yet Mega-Evolved. (eg. Charizard Mega Evolve A2 if X uses Rain Dance A1) (eg2. Gardevoir replace A1 with Encore, pushing back Mega Evolve and remaining action string if Y uses Endure A1)

Any feedback is much appreciated. You may even improve upon it and present it as your own as long as it follows the goal of tying Mega Evolutions into a single action, because I'll be away from 15th to 17th of March.

 

[Frosty]

Mega Pokemon Clause is a new Clause in CAP ASB XY, and the battlers can set the number of Mega Pokemon they want to allow in a battle. (E.G. No Megas, 1 Mega, Unlimited Megas etc.) Mega Pokemon Stones are linked to the Pokemon specifically and, like in-game, are not subject to any item removal or suppression effects such as Trick, Switcheroo, Embargo, or Magic Room. Knock Off does not get the power boost on a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. In ASB, Mega Evolved Pokemon retain all of their base form's Abilities, and several Mega Pokemon that duplicate base form abilities have associated effects noted on their Mega Stone's Item Description. In Single Ability Battles, Mega Evolutions will have the ability of the Mega Evolution after Mega Evolving, but will retain any effects from the base form's ability (ex. a Moxie Pinsir that got an attack boost before Mega Evolving.)

A Pokemon can Mega Evolve before the first on any action in a round under any condition (Except before the first action of a round), including Sleep, Freeze, or Taunt. Mega Evolution does not itself take up an action, and does not have an inherent Energy Cost (it may activate abilities that do, such as Drought or Sand Stream). Mega Evolution occurs before any other action takes place, regardless of priority (Pokemon will mega Evolve in the speed order of the Pokemon if multiple Pokemon are Mega Evolving). Mega Evolved Pokemon remain Mega Evolved for the duration of the battle once they have activated Mega Evolution. Mega Evolved Pokemon will act with the speed priority they had prior to Mega Evolving on the First Mega Evolution action, but will act with their updated Speed in all subsequent actions. Their ability will be in effect immediately (ex. Mega Charizard Y summoning Drought), as will the updated accuracy boost if they have a +Spe nature.

Said command isn't affected by substitutions unless stated so on the specific sub. Mega Evolution can be used as part of a Chance Substitution if the Pokemon has not yet Mega-Evolved. (ex. Charizard Mega Evolve A2 if X uses Rain Dance A1)

As for "1" and "4", don't really have an opinion.

 

[tavok]

Just wanted to say that Mega Evolution pushing back with the action is perfectly ok in my opinion. If you don't want to push the mega-evolution back you could just state it in your sub. Example:

[Mega-Evolve] Close Combat - Brick Break - Close Combat
- IF Counter, THEN [Mega-Evolve] Aura Sphere instead.

While this could lead to multiple actions having the [Mega-Evolve] thing, we should leave it like that and just take the first into account, that so it doesn't get too complicated.
OR we could ad an extra sub for Mega Evolutions, which would act like KO substitutions in that they would not take a sub. This substitution is only to Mega-Evolve, not to do something if the opponent does it or something.

Example:

[Mega-Evolve] Close Combat - Brick Break - Close Combat
- IF Counter, THEN Aura Sphere instead.
- Always [Mega-Evolve] A1

This could surely use some tweking, but that's what I have in mind for the moment.

Also, if you can guess which Pokémon my example is about you have more than 2 brain cells deserve a cookie.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

I would think that the Mega Evolution substitution could be counted as am add-on to the frequency clause.

IF [x], THEN [y], BUT ALWAYS [Mega-Evolve action n].

or...

IF [x], THEN [y], BUT ALWAYS [Mega-Evolve action n] AND [something something action i].

 

[Gemini Taurus]

(I was told that this is the place to post this, if this should be elsewhere please let me know)
Concerning Mega Evolutions in 1 Ability battles:

I have recently been informed that if a Pokemon with a Mega Evolution is being used in a one ability battle, if you wish to use the MEvo ability, that you must select the mega evolution's ability before evolving, leaving you with no ability until that point. Even though most people will be Mega Evolving immediately upon sendout, this seems like an odd ruling to me.

I propose that instead of being left in an abilityless situation, that trainers should select one of their other abilities, and then upon mega evolution, they can choose whether or not the MEvo ability will overwrite the old one. To me this follows in game precedent more closely, yet still allows the trainer to use a non MEvo ability if they wish.

In the case that this proposal is disliked could we please put this rule in the handbook, as it is a fairly obscure ruling.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I support SubwayJ's ruling and the premise that Mega-Evolution should be specified when ordering as a condition at the start of the round/A0. They make the most sense, even if the effects will seldom be felt.

 

[Its_A_Random]

(I was told that this is the place to post this, if this should be elsewhere please let me know)
Concerning Mega Evolutions in 1 Ability battles:

I have recently been informed that if a Pokemon with a Mega Evolution is being used in a one ability battle, if you wish to use the MEvo ability, that you must select the mega evolution's ability before evolving, leaving you with no ability until that point. Even though most people will be Mega Evolving immediately upon sendout, this seems like an odd ruling to me.

I propose that instead of being left in an abilityless situation, that trainers should select one of their other abilities, and then upon mega evolution, they can choose whether or not the MEvo ability will overwrite the old one. To me this follows in game precedent more closely, yet still allows the trainer to use a non MEvo ability if they wish.

In the case that this proposal is disliked could we please put this rule in the handbook, as it is a fairly obscure ruling.

Whoever gave the ruling was incorrect in the first place, & this proposal is supposed to be the actual ruling. Nothing obscure about it, especially given it is already in the mega evolution part of the handbook:

In Single Ability Battles, Mega Evolutions will have the ability of the Mega Evolution after Mega Evolving, but will retain any effects from the base form's ability (ex. a Moxie Pinsir that got an attack boost before Mega Evolving.)
(NB: This implies that you have to choose one of the non-mega Pokémon's abilities, & then it is replaced upon mega evolution.)

 

[starwarsfan]

I'd like to bring up this for discussion, as it does relate to mega evolution.
Also yay an excuse to bump this thread.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

That seems the correct ruling, seems to fall in line with standard precedent of recency superseding past actions.

 

[Dogfish44]

48 Hours till thread closed.

 

[ZhengTann]

Long past 48 hours. May I?

Slate:
Retain Mega-Evolution's description
Adopt ZhengTann's proposal
Adopt Frosty's proposal

Mega Pokemon Clause is a new Clause in CAP ASB XY, and the battlers can set the number of Mega Pokemon they want to allow in a battle. (E.G. No Megas, 1 Mega, Unlimited Megas etc.) Mega Pokemon Stones are linked to the Pokemon specifically and, like in-game, are not subject to any item removal or suppression effects such as Trick, Switcheroo, Embargo, or Magic Room. Knock Off does not get the power boost on a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. In ASB, Mega Evolved Pokemon retain all of their base form's Abilities, and several Mega Pokemon that duplicate base form abilities have associated effects noted on their Mega Stone's Item Description. In Single Ability Battles, Mega Evolutions will have the ability of the Mega Evolution after Mega Evolving, but will retain any effects from the base form's ability (ex. a Moxie Pinsir that got an attack boost before Mega Evolving). If a Pokemon Mega-Evolves, it will use up one Mega slot, and the battler will be barred from further Mega Evolving if all Mega slots have been used up at that point in battle.

A Pokemon can Mega Evolve on any action in a round under any condition (Except before the first action of a round), including Sleep, Freeze, or Taunt. Mega Evolution must be tied to any single action, though it does not itself take up an action, and does not have an inherent Energy Cost (it may activate abilities that do, such as Drought or Sand Stream). Mega Evolution occurs before any other action takes place, regardless of priority (Pokemon will mega Evolve in the speed order of the Pokemon if multiple Pokemon are Mega Evolving). Mega Evolved Pokemon remain Mega Evolved for the duration of the battle once they have activated Mega Evolution, even if the Mega Evolved Pokemon fainted and is revived. Mega Evolved Pokemon will act with the speed priority they had prior to Mega Evolving on the Mega Evolution action, but will act with their updated Speed in subsequent actions. Their ability will be in effect immediately (eg. Mega Charizard Y summoning Drought), as will the updated accuracy boost if they have a +Spe nature.

Mega Evolution can be triggered when a battler posts his/her orders, specifying the action in which Mega Evolution takes place (eg. Thunderbolt > Thunderbolt > [Mega-Evolve] Outrage). Mega Evolution can be used as part of a Chance Substitution if the Pokemon has not yet Mega-Evolved. (eg. Charizard Mega Evolve A2 if X uses Rain Dance A1) (eg2. Gardevoir replace A1 with Encore, pushing back Mega Evolve and remaining action string if Y uses Endure A1)

Mega Pokemon Clause is a new Clause in CAP ASB XY, and the battlers can set the number of Mega Pokemon they want to allow in a battle. (E.G. No Megas, 1 Mega, Unlimited Megas etc.) Mega Pokemon Stones are linked to the Pokemon specifically and, like in-game, are not subject to any item removal or suppression effects such as Trick, Switcheroo, Embargo, or Magic Room. Knock Off does not get the power boost on a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. In ASB, Mega Evolved Pokemon retain all of their base form's Abilities, and several Mega Pokemon that duplicate base form abilities have associated effects noted on their Mega Stone's Item Description. In Single Ability Battles, Mega Evolutions will have the ability of the Mega Evolution after Mega Evolving, but will retain any effects from the base form's ability (ex. a Moxie Pinsir that got an attack boost before Mega Evolving.)

A Pokemon can Mega Evolve before the first on any action in a round under any condition (Except before the first action of a round), including Sleep, Freeze, or Taunt. Mega Evolution does not itself take up an action, and does not have an inherent Energy Cost (it may activate abilities that do, such as Drought or Sand Stream). Mega Evolution occurs before any other action takes place, regardless of priority (Pokemon will mega Evolve in the speed order of the Pokemon if multiple Pokemon are Mega Evolving). Mega Evolved Pokemon remain Mega Evolved for the duration of the battle once they have activated Mega Evolution. Mega Evolved Pokemon will act with the speed priority they had prior to Mega Evolving on the First Mega Evolution action, but will act with their updated Speed in all subsequent actions. Their ability will be in effect immediately (ex. Mega Charizard Y summoning Drought), as will the updated accuracy boost if they have a +Spe nature.

Said command isn't affected by substitutions unless stated so on the specific sub. Mega Evolution can be used as part of a Chance Substitution if the Pokemon has not yet Mega-Evolved. (ex. Charizard Mega Evolve A2 if X uses Rain Dance A1)

Mods may close this and open up a Voting.