Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

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haunter

Banned deucer.

Salamence Mega
Aerilate
HP 95 Atk 145 Def 130 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 120 BST 700

After much anticipation, ORAS is finally here! A few questions are on everybody's mind: what megas will reign supreme? what will the metagame be like? more importantly...what's the status on Mega Salamence?

It's been immediately evident to anyone who's played the ORAS OU ladder that Mega Salamence is incredibly centralizing and difficult to play around. The boosted Defense makes it hard to revenge kill with the most common priorities. The 120 base Speed means that it's able to outspeed many wanna be revenge killers (Lati@s, Thundurus, Keldeo, Starmie etc) even whitout a dragon dance under its belt. On the top of that, M-Salamence gets an Attack boost and Aerialite, which makes its Return/Double Edge hit stupidly hard even when unboosted.

Many top players from both Tournaments and Pokémon Showdown consider Mega Salemence's presence detrimental to the correct development of the ORAS metagame and have been asking us to take quick and drastic measures against it. The OU Council is currently considering quick banning Mega Salamence to Ubers. However we're not totally opposed to suspect testing it.

The purpose of this thread is for us to gather information on how Mega Salemence's presence in the metagame is perceived by the playerbase.

Rules for posting in this thread:
1) keep the discussion civil;
2) no one liners nor uninformed posts;
3) stick to the topic of Mega Salamence and its role in the metagame, we don't care about whether you like our tiering process or not.

Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
 

heritage

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Yes, please.
Alright, let me start this out by saying...
Mega Salamence is completely broken. I remember when people were saying Aerilate would be useless on it, but we've proved them wrong. It also has Intimidate before Mega Evolving, giving it even more bulk. Salamence has access to Dragon Dance, which boosts its already high Attack to insane levels, as well as giving it a Speed boost. It has fantastic bulk for a sweeper, allowing it to take many hits, even Super Effective hits, extremely easily. It has reliable recovery, as well as a way to heal statuses. It has the capability to sweep many teams with little to no effort. There is no such thing as a Mega Salamence counter. Every team must have at least 2 checks to it or risk getting swept. It pressures team building more than any other Pokemon ever has before. Dare I say that this dragon is better than Arceus himself?
With out a doubt in my mind, and the minds of many others, this thing should be quick banned.

Tr;dl: Just fucking quick ban it already
 
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Well the facts are it is bulky from the huge increase to defense it has intimidate to make it even more bulky. It has access to all the tools to beat out it's "counters" and you cant really counter it without knowing it's entire set. I myself am trying to find a way to build a team that can beat it and stlll keep up with the meta but I have had no luck. I think it has the same problems as gen 4 salamence when it got banned.
 
The problem with Mega-Mence is not only bulk, raw power and speed, it has the movepool and coverage (Eq, fireblast and hydro pump) with 120 Spa to get past its wanna be counters. Its wannabe counters depend heavily on the coverage move.
The effectiveness DD/Sub/roost/Return set is also a testament to its power as it can brute force its way through a team with only 1 free turn. I sometimes find myself afraid to nab a KO with something that Mega-Mence can set up a sub/DD. Your offensive team gets murdered then. Defensive teams can hope to phaze but it still can win as a last Mon.
It should be quick banned.
 
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Just bann it. Even if you would go for a suspect test, the end result will be the same thats almost certain therefor testing it is a waste of time. Salamence is easily on par with mons like Blaziken and Kangaskhan, he is even worse than Lucario imo because Lucario had a very hard time setting up due to its miserable bulk, Salamence however can set up on pretty much everything that doesnt have stab Ice Attacks. He is like Pinsir on steroids and Pinsir was already an A+/S rank threat before Oras. Salamence is so much better than Pinsir, its not even funny. The only thing its lacking compared to Pinsir is priority, but honestly who needs priority with 120 base speed + Dragon Dance? The speed, the power, the bulk (living LO Mamoswines Ice Shard despite 4x weakness i mean come on GF), the movepool, this mon is just over the top and needs to go.
 
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i feel this needs to be quick banned.This thing is a monster to try and play against after one single dd nothing at all can switch in and people are running pokes like scarfed greninja just to beat this thing

It also has bulk i here the "well use mamo" argument come up so often.It has the bulk that ice shard is not a guaranteed OHKO with minimal investment in defence off a BANDED mamoswine.Mence is like shaymin sky in 5th gen its so broken I'm expecting a unanimous decision nearly
 
Mega Salamence should definitely be quick banned to ubers. It's certainly too strong with Aerilate and can take hits all day thanks to its 130 defense, letting it set up on too many things. Even if you can manage to counter some sets, like the mono-attacking one or toxic/burn it, a decent M-Salamence team with enough support can always get some kills with it. There are just very few revenge killers like Weavile, Mamoswine and Scarf Greninja (after +1) and less reliable counters (Zapdos maybe? Rotom-W has to have HP Ice to beat it one on one, but even then it can lose to it), so it is a very centralizing mon. Not the way with aegislash, in which case you had to use certain moves to not get countered by it, but the way you have to use a slot or more specially for Salamence to not get destroyed by it. And even that doesn't guarantee a thing.

People even tend to use counter teams specialized in countering the Sub DD M-Mence teams you see everywhere to have a chance. But even similar to Mega Kangashkan it doesn't even need support to wreck almost the entire tier, why a suspect test is not needed imo, especially if everyone would vote for a ban anyway.
 
Something that Haunter didn't mention is that it has more than enough Special Attack and Speed, and the correct movepool, to run a decently effective Special Attacking set. A set with some combination of Aerialate Hyper Voice, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast and Hydro Pump can deal heavy damage to the Intimidaters and Physically Defensive Electrics that are typically used to check Mence. Special Attacking sets also completely ignores Burns. While it's not a mainstream set by any means, it's more than useable and does a very effective job of hurting it's typical checks and counters.
 
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People have been running stuff like Cresselia, Porygon 2, and Scarfed Noivern in an attempt to shut this thing down. Base form can easily get the Dragon Dance up with Intimidate crippling stuff like Mega Gallade and Lopunny even when they carry Ice Punch. I don't have the relevant calculations off the top of my head, but I specifically remember ADAMANT Mega Glalie's Ice Shard only doing like 70% or so a lot of the time (and that's without the Intimidate) with Return OHKOing or 2HKOing most things in kind. I don't even think Ice Shard + Stealth Rocks is a guaranteed kill with Mega Glalie. That is very and sickening definition of Power Creep at its worst. It has the ability to slaughter basically any Mega bar Slowbro or Sableye who need several boosts or status to meet it.

People occasionally run Dragon stab along with Flying to smash Rotom-W and friends. Forget Fairies, Aerilate will knock them out. Even Mega Diancie gets outsped and earthquaked unless it has a Rock Polish under its belt.

Sure you can try to Prankster WIll-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave it, but that's hardly a full stop. The opposing team can give it Wish or Cleric support, Refresh, Substitute, Fire Blast for Skarmory, Roost-Stall out Stone Edges from Landorus. It's always going to cost the opponent one to two Pokemon.

There is playing smart and there is just plain stupid broken.
 
There's really nothing to consider here. You have to build at least one or two counters into your team (Physically Defensive Rotom-W running HP-Ice is probably among the most reliable) specifically for this monster. Even the Unaware users won't help, because he hits hard enough stock to put them into the ground. Nearly every team I see runs it, and for good reason. He's fast, he's bulky, he's strong, good god, a lot of specific counters for it barely work as is, and depending on his set, it might not work at all. For the sake of the meta game, Quick Ban MegaMence.
 
Of course it should be quick-banned, is there really any question to it?

It completely dominates the tier, bar a very few select Pokemon. The ability to run either the bulky set with substitute/etc. or just give it DD and a few attacks allows it to destroy practically everything. Coupled with a solid special attack and special movepool, it can take it's pick of bulky, mixed, physical, or special (and support if you count the fact it gets Wish and a great defense stat). It does all of it's roles exceptionally well and has virtually no reliable counters/checks (again, aside from a few select Pokemon which wouldn't be used much otherwise).

I'd say more but not much more needs to be said.

Quick-Ban Mega Salamence.
 
Yeah IMO there's no really no point in suspect testing, it's a waste of time and I think everyone agrees that this thing needs to go. Intimidate + Aerilate + great bulk + DD + Roost is simply too much for the tier. This thing can 6-0 entire teams. DD + Refresh can even set up on Porygon2 who is supposed to be an answer to this thing. Life Orb Ice Shard also fail to KO 252 HP Mega Salamence. Even with teams having more than one answer to this thing, it's still not guaranteed you won't get swept late game and Healing Wish paired up with this make this even harder to deal with. TLDR quick ban.
 
While Aerilate gives this monster some ball-bustingly powerful STAB with no drawbacks and fantastic offensive typing, that's not what really makes this thing broken. What does is its bulk, thanks to it's crazy physical defense (and decent sp.def) amplified by Intimidate when it's in its base form. This makes snagging dragon dances an absolute doddle, and you can't try and whittle its health down to revenge kill it with priority on the revenge kill either thanks to its access to Roost, and there's nothing apart from Weavile or Mamoswine that can use their priority to take this thing down when it's healthy. Even Prankster Priority status is unreliable because Mence often gets to set up a substitute ahead of time, can actually exploit burns by running Facade over Return, or can just flat out heal itself with Refresh. In the meantime it only needs one DD to outspeed all of the relevant metagame threats, and there's very little that can stand up to taking +1 Aerilate Returns and retaliate. Most of the few things that do get blown away by its other attacking options, which are as broad and effective as they come, with the right moves to smash everything that resists Flying, whether that's EQ, Fire Blast or just extremely powerful Dragon STAB. Long story short, thanks to the combination of its bulk, power and coverage, it usually only needs one free turn to set up and blow an entire enemy team clean out of the water, and these free turns are extremely easy for it to get. Your offensive checks are limited to Mamo and Weavile (barring ridiculous shit like Scarf Greninja,) and Mence can get past both of these with the right set and a timely Intimidate, and neither of them have a hope in hell of switching in safely. I guess it does have some counters in the shape of physically bulky Porygon2 and Cresselia, but even these need to have their health preserved if they want to switch in safely, and their value in the rest of the metagame is somewhat questionable, plus running these forces you into using a very specific, bulky-focused team archetype.

So yeah. If this doesn't warrant an instant ban then I'm not sure what does.
 

Clone

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Mence is borked and needs to go. And instead of saying anecdotes from my experience on the ladder about how Mence sweeped me, I'll just bring up a few key points in how incredibly broken he is:

  1. His ability pre mega: intimidate. Normally this isn't an issue, but in this case, it is. On it's own it's not a big deal, but the fact that Mence has a gargantuan base 130 defense post mega is ridiculous. Even Landorus T can't 2HKO with Stone Edge after Intimidate. And that's Scarf Lando.
  2. His bulk. Going soon wih intimidate, his bulk is unreal. He sets up on everything with a simple SubDD set. Why? Because nothing can break him. Physical attackers are forced out after Mence comes in, leaving him a free turn to Sub or DD. After that only a few select scarfers outspeed him. And the only priority he's weak to, Ice Shard, can't even OHKO him if he's at full. And that's assuming you have a Weavile or Mamoswine on your team. Both have LO btw.
  3. His power the only things that can stomachs his hits are defensive mons. And even then they die while only giving him set up opportunities. The only defensive Pokémon that can actually stand up to SubDD Mence reliably is Skarmory. Everything else is set up on. And what does Skarmory do? whirlwind and delay the inevitable. Then Skarm does later in the match and yu lose. Rotom can't break Mences subs without significant SpAtk investment, which severely cuts down his bulk. Porygon2 can somewhat take him on, but only with a PhysDef EV spread and if Mence hasn't megad yet. And it's not like Mence has bad synergy with fighting types or anything. Everything else just dies.
  4. All his defensive answers die to the special set. Literally. He has Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, and Hydro Pump, more than enough to beat his normal 'counters'. And it's not like a base 120 SpAtk hits soft or anything.
  5. Dragon Dance. He needs one to sweep. Just one. And he gets that DD against literally 75% of the tier. No scarfer can beat him at that point bar Greninja, which is pretty bad lol.
  6. Aerielate.
I shouldn't have to say more. But there is more. There's just no need to list even more traits about a mom I've already proved to be more broken than Lucario. Anyone who disagrees with me doesn't understand the terms 'checks and counters' correctly, and is probably not a great player. I, as well as every other half competent player, can agree that Mence needs to leave as soon as possible.
 
Yes, i agree MegaMence is OP (i used one a while back), i don't really see what the big problem. Anything that resists flying and has good physical bulk walls out the sub set. And Skarmory walls most offensive sets unless its running fire blast, in witch it has to invest SpA in so your losing out on valuable Evs. Im not saying its not OP, but that i would be happy to see it stay in OU.
MixMence is also ridiculously common, and off of a base 120 Special Attack, he really doesn't need to invest much, if anything in Special Attack. just slap a special move or two on him and you're ready to go.
 
I used Honko's coverage calc (granted it's Gen 5, but PS's calc is down and can't do One VS All anyway), and the results are similar to that of Mega Lucario's (after a DD for Salamence and SD for Lucario) for the physical set. The fact that it has a special set or has the option to run Fire Blast basically means that there are almost no counters to this Pokemon, and few checks. Furthermore, Mega Salamence has far greater Defence and resists many common priority moves, such as Mach Punch and Aqua Jet, preventing it from being picked off by priority alone. Mega Salamence also has greater speed, and can outspeed every common scarfer in OU after a DD.
Hence, it should be quickbanned.
 
This thing has to go. If you don't run very specific counters like a max HP Mega Altaria, it sweeps your whole team, and good players can still play around those counters. It takes little skill to use, and its impact on the meta is INCREDIBLY unhealthy; on par with Mega Kangaskhan.

Plus I feel a suspect test would be pointless, seeing as we've already experienced it a significant amount on the ORAS OU ladder, and it's clear from the overall response from the community that any vote would be an overwhelming majority in favour of a ban.


Quick ban this thing.

Edit: the few suggested answers to it, such as scarfed Greninja or Noivern, show in their rarity and nicheness just how over-centralising this thing is.
 
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I think its pretty clear how it is bad for the metagame, its almost a perfect pokemon for OU standards: it has the speed to kill its checks, defense to take priority, a boosting move in dragon dance and intimidade to make it easy to boost itself, an absolutely great attack combined with an useful ability. It makes people run Mamoswine/Weavile if they don't want to auto-lose when Mega Mence is on the opponent team. I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be quick banned, a suspect testing would seem waste of time tbh.
 

KJ Corp

~ fish wind vane ~
Yes, i agree MegaMence is OP (i used one a while back), i don't really see what the big problem. Anything that resists flying and has good physical bulk walls out the sub set. And Skarmory walls most offensive sets unless its running fire blast, in witch it has to invest SpA in so your losing out on valuable Evs. Im not saying its not OP, but that i would be happy to see it stay in OU. EDIT: Noivern checks this guy if he's behind a sub cause of infiltrator
The problem is that last mon megamence beats skarm and a lot of other defensive pokemon. Ban it now.
 
QuickBan Mega-Salamence

TL;DR QuickBan Megamence

jk but seriously I think this thing has ways to be handled, but regardless of those ways he is still way too centralizing and just outright overpowered. I mean porygon2, skarmory, rhyperior, rotom-w, are all ways that he can be played around but salamence can pick and choose the sets he wants and fuck over his would be counters, which is very characteristic of a broken mon. Very reminiscent of kanghaskhan, and if we quick ban megamence I think we can effectively make a balance metagame way faster than it took us last gen.
 

Soul Fly

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I'll err on the side of caution and advise a suspect test. A very early suspect test but at least some semblance of a testing. I have been experimenting with a fair few counter-styles myself and am not fully convinced that it won't be mitigated in the future. Can there at least be a grace period of general observation instead of a quickban? Let players at least try out new stuff and try to get some playstyles to work? ATM 99% of the posts before me are unsubstantiated bitching. (getting a lot of smogonbird vibes)

Then at least we can have a more concrete discussion and reasoning than people just lazily c/p'ing mega mence attributes (or bolded annoying one-liners from new/sub100 posts users without any sort of reasoning whatsoever) and making straight jumps to such a conclusion. I'm seeing a lot of wagon jumping.

EDIT @ ^above: nice edit
EDIT @ below: that's not good reasoning, either. even if it's anti-quickban...
 
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Can't say much more than anyone else did already.
The fact that you need to run at least one very whacky check or "counter" to not get completely stomped every battle should be reason enough, but if you take a look at the tools you're forced to fight this monster with, it becomes even more clear, since pretty much none of them are universally able to even check all sets.
So i'm definetely going with the option to quickban Mega Salamence and hope that we'll soon have a more fun and diverse ORAS OU.
 
My immediate Knee-jerk reaction was to say Quick-Ban, but a few people are evidently saying they've found counter measures.

That said, I can't think of enough counter-measures myself.

I think for the interrim it might be ideal to try a bit of the Aegislash Suspect method: Make MegaMence and non-MegaMence ladders. Only players who are willing to compete with Mence will play there, so we'll see if they can actually adapt to a Meta Game without it. Meanwhile, we can see if a Metagame without it is healthier.
 
The main problem with MegaMence is akin to Greninja, it's incredibly versatile and practically any set is incredibly effective. Straight Sub DD? Amazing. Mixed? Just as, if not even more effective. After roughly ~40 matches on the ORAS OU ladder, there were roughly 6 different sets running around...ranging from offensive with Double-Edge to the dastardly Sub-DD.
The hindrance that this poses to the tier is that it is extremely hard to prepare for, as its movepool, Speed and Defense buff after mega-evolving mean that there are no true and feasible counters within the tier. Skarm? Fire Blasted by a MixMence. Rotom-W? Set up by a Mence with max HP (which is quite common on the ladder). And that's just its quiet side.
Having intimidate before mega-evolving mean that it can set up on many physical attackers, or set up on their forced switch, and sweep through teams. Sub-DD allows it to avoid burns from WoW Rotom-W and Sabelye, and paras from Thundy. This thing is a monster. Quite literally.

Therefore, I advise an extremely early suspect test or a quickban.
 
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