Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

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I'm not the best player around I'll confess to that but Anyone can see just how ridiculous Mega mance is. Centralising is actually putting it kindly considering what damage it can do. Its stupdily unpredictable and can run anything from Full physical sweeper, to mixed stall breaker, to Defensive Wish support if it wanted to and it Would still work. Atleast with Mega maw you knew it was physical when facing it but thats not a luxury you have here. You can literally pick and choose what kills you and anything thats troublesome can be dealt with thanks to mances massive movepool. Diancie bothering you run hydro Pump, Heatran use earthquake, Slowbro just Sub then set up. Thunder Wave Klefki got you down Use refresh. I would even go as far as saying mega Khan was more balanced then this since as far as Im aware (Correct me if Im wrong) That thing had actual counter's that were still somewhat OU viable. Where as mega mance can literraly choose what it lose's to and has the bulk to survive every revenge move everything short of Banded Weavile its that bulky. This thing can set up on foul play users like Mandibuzz, Sableye and umbreon (I know its not ranked dont chide me lol). Foul play is supposed to be an anti-sweeper tool yet here is a pokemon who can tank it at +1 and with enough Def investment Roost it off. That alone should tell you how broken it is. No other Unresisted physical sweeper has such a luxury

Mega mance is almost the perfect pokemon with no real weakness's or counters while being troubled only slightly by stealth rock. It doesn't fear burns cause it has Substitue, Taunt and Refresh, Doesn't fear foul play, Is extremly unpredictable in that it has Multiple viable sets that have a similar pay off to sweeping sets, Cant be beaten Like mawile could with mind games, Cant be revenged by scarfers or priority and has no real counters and only Shaky checks. Short of Bending over backwards to fit in multiple Checks in every team Just how are we supposed to deal with this thing.

Please Just Quick Ban it
or if you must have some testing put it to an immeadite player vote.
 
There is little to debate if we'd do the suspect testing. The shit this monster can do is unreal. It's DD+Sub+Roost is a proof enough how ridiculous it is as no pokemon should be able to get away with shit like that but it actually can. And it even has so many other sets that can easily beat strong flying resist mons that it is just downright ridiculous. And even though this monster needs little support Latias and many other mons can support it so easily it only needs a one turn to end the game mid-game.

tl;dr: no point in suspect testing, just quick ban Mega Salamence.
 

Clone

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He only reason why I would be for a suspect test is so that I can get another vote towards the TC Badge.

But seriously though, Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan were quick banned in XY, so there's already precedent for quick bans in OU. Mence is obviously broken, and arguably worse than those two, so wantin to play in a cancerous meta while a suspect test is going on makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
 
Quick-ban Mega Salamence. The beta ORAS ladder has given us time to test it, and it's easy to both sweep with and lose to, even with two or more checks on a team. The bulky Substitute set is perhaps the most dangerous, as it makes Salamence much harder to revenge kill or status with Prankster pokemon. which in turn has led to a number of distorted, and otherwise inefficient sets including Modest Rotom-W to break M-Mence's substitutes with Volt Switch. What allows M-Mence to be such an effective user of Substitute is its immense bulk, backed by Intimidate, and the extremely fast speed tier it sits at, allowing it to place some EV investment in its defenses whilst still outrunning the vast majority of the OU metagame, making it very easy to set up a Substitute; in addition, thanks to Aerilate and 145 attack, it's going to hit enormously hard without a boost. I think it may be fair to draw a comparison to Mega Charizard-X, which was considered to be S-rank on the XY OU viability rankings. Aside from the much higher speed after Mega Evolving, Mega Mence is also able to get away with mono-Aerilate coverage, giving it an additional moveslot to play with over Zard-X, which has to run at least two attacks to avoid being walled.
 
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boltsandbombers

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Basically agreeing with most of the points that others said, after having quite a bit of experience with mega mence I'd like to share my thoughts.
  • Having intimidate AND 130 Defense after mega evolving makes it ridiculously bulky, allowing it to setup on the majority of the metagame. As many have stated, it can easily survive LO Ice Shards from Mamoswine / Weavile and KO in return after any prior damage. More importantly, it easily sets up on Landorus-T, as not even stone edge can 2HKO, which is pretty crazy.
  • Overcentralization - because of mega mence, I've seen some really obscure sets or pokemon in OU just to handle it. For example, pokeaim used exactly enough SpA on his Rotom-W to break Mega Mence's substitutes with volt switch, therefore it lost a significant amount of bulk leaving it weaker to other mons. I've even seen HP Ice on defensive Rotom-W just for mega mence, which is normally sub optimal. Brave Bird Skarmory has also risen in popularity specifically to break salamences subs, losing out on a utility move. People even started using scarf greninja to outspeed mence after a DD. In addition, porygon2, usually a "meh" pokemon in OU has shot up in usage due to its ability to trade salamence's Intimidate supported by its bulk to take its hits. However, it can only copy the intimidate once, and after mence mega evolves it has much more trouble handling it.
  • Versatility - while the most common and effective set is Sub / DD / Roost / Return, mence has a plethora of ways to break past its "checks and counters." While Skarmory is usually a great answer to mence, it gets fried by fire blast. Rhyperior, which I have had quite a bit of use with lately, does a great job of checking mence, that is unless it runs hydro pump. Also, it could run Hyper Voice to hit physically bulky pokemon such as slowbro and hit though substitutes. Remember, this is coming off of base 120 SpA, which is nothing to scoff at.
  • Lastly, sheer power - flying is such a great typing offensively this generation, as shown with the effective playstyle of birdspam. With only three type resists, mence has no issue running just mono-flying coverage.
Overall, I think that mega salamence is way too powerful, over centralizing, broken, etc in this meta, so it should be Quick Banned.
 
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It was pretty obvious that this thing is going to be broken unless it gets a nerf to its speed or attack (which isn't the case).
Intiminate from its base form + great bulk allows this thing to pretty much turn any physical attacker into a set-up forder.
Furthermore, Aerialate makes high base powered Normal Type moves into Life Orb-Boosted Flying Type Moves on which it gets STAB on top.

We already know that Flying is now the prominent offensive Typing similar to how Dragon was last generation but instead spamming powerful Outrages, you spam powerful Returns, Frustration (to troll Dittos), Trash or Double Edge. I have seen people use Facade to bypass Burn-Drops and at this point Salamence can just go as a mono-Flying attacker with Roost, Dragon Dance, Flying STAB and Substitute/Refresh.
People started to use things like Noivern to bypass Substitute or things like Porygon2 to just deal with this thing.

Unlike Mega Lucario, while Mega Mence can still go special, you can't do anything once it safely comes into something because you know it is going to set up and there is nothing to can do, most at the time, to stop it.

For that reason, I feel quick banning it, is only reasonable.
 
Lol guys just use cloyster

no but seriously ban it now. ORAS ladder showed its dominance sure it can be stopped by zapdos/skarm but they can be worked around and mence creates way to much centralization just ban it
 
After watching it being played constantly in various of ways, the only real counter for mence is mence. Mega mence, truly needs to just be quick banned. Yes you have some counters like ninja, but the thing is this thing legit takes everything out. Nothing stops it, and it's absolutely terrifying to play against. I mean yeah you can play around it but everyone either runs the standard sub dd mence or bulky mence, and with this being in the meta it's the only things kids will use. It's like going back to the beginning where you won't see diversified teams because everyone's objective is the same and that's to win.
 
lol it switched in on, gave the intimidate boost to, and proceeded to use LO Defiant-boosted Bisharp as sub/DD set up fodder.

It single-handedly turns half the meta into a liability. It's not designed for 6v6 singles play, because GF stopped caring about introducing cancerous elements into the singles metagame a long time ago.

When a 'mon gives one player a disproportionate advantage over his opponent just by virtue of slapping that 'mon onto the team, the metagame suffers. Mega Salamence is disproportionately bulkier, faster, more versatile, and more powerful than any other pokémon in the singles metagame.

Quickban.
 
What else is there to be said at this point? Everyone's said everything there is to be said about it, it's possibly more broken than Uber's current Megaray problem, It's forced people into using fucking choice scarf greninja, this thing has to go.
Huh, scarf ninja can try to revenge kill but if it is behind a sub, mence can just smack it with frustration, infiltrator Noivern will do though. And even then, if you see something that could outspeed and kill you on team preview, you don't need to setup and just punch holes in the enemy team and switch out. If you're afraid about it's longevity due to stealth rock weakness, that's what healing wish is for and your weakened check stopped being a check. If you manage to take it down, the rest its team WILL clean you up.

The sheer pressure it puts on you once it's in forces you to make the safest play which can easily allow the mence team to build up momentum until you break.
 
lol it switched in on, gave the intimidate boost to, and proceeded to use LO Defiant-boosted Bisharp as sub/DD set up fodder.

It single-handedly turns half the meta a liability. It's not designed for 6v6 singles play, because GF stopped caring about introducing cancerous elements into the singles metagame a long time ago.

When a 'mon gives one player a disproportionate advantage over his opponent just by virtue of slapping that 'mon onto the team, the metagame suffers. Mega Salamence is disproportionately bulkier, faster, more versatile, and more powerful than any other pokémon in the singles metagame.

Quickban.
Couldn't have said it better man.
 
Well, this is a no-brainer. Mega Salamence is by far the best Pokémon to step into OU for a long time. There are many good sets thanks to Salamence's good movepool, having access to moves such as Return, Hyper Voice, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Dragon Dance, Roost, Tailwind and Outrage to break most of OU. This is even more dangerous coming off something with great offensive stats and great physical bulk backed up by an amazing ability pre-Mega. Tbh, there is literally no reason not to use Mega Salamence as it is great at just about anything it wants to do, and a player with Mega Salamence is automatically at an advantage against any player not using it. Mega Salamence is, simply put, just too good, and definitely unhealthy to the OU metagame as a whole. I support a quickban.
 
This motherfucker is easily as broken, if not more broken than Mega Kangaskhan. It might not having the unbelievably disgusting power Mega Kanga has, but it's even bulkier, faster, and completely and utterly devoid of reliable counters whereas Mega Kanga had Sableye and Skarmory. It can set up against basically everything that doesn't have a 4 times super effective attack or priority status. The sheer fact that it's omnipresently used in conjunction with Magnezone oppresses almost all Steel-types into Shed Shell, giving the benefit of simply not getting your ass swept by MMence with zero arduousness on the opponent's side, being a more optimal choice over Leftovers which are more beneficial against the entire metagame except one strategy: DragMag with Mence and Magnezone, if that even requires enough skill to constitute a strategy. It also makes so many Pokemon less viable than they should be. It's being so damn good drastically increases the opportunity cost of all other Mega evolutions in OU, and also makes certain Pokemon like Mega Venusaur seem like total deadweight because the metagame is littered with Mence. No, the metagame is Mence. Quickban this thing, no suspecting required at all.
 

TheEnder

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Okay, I'm actually gonna write up my thoughts pretty in-depth, as this is a interesting subject. As anyone who has tried to ladder on the ORAS OU ladder knows by now, Mega Salamence is a huge presence, and a really dangerous one, too. Not only does it have access to a plethora of coverage moves, giving it the ability to go physical, special, and even mixed, but due to its bulk, it pretty much sets up with Dragon Dance on up anything of its choice, making it really hard to deal with. Some of the few answers to the "standard" physical set consisting of Dragon Dance | Return | Roost | Earthquake or Substitute include Zapdos with investment in Special Attack, Rotom-W with investment in Special Attack, Skarmory with Whirlwind and investment in Attack, physically defensive Slowbro with Ice Beam, and physically defenisve Porygon-2 with Ice Beam. The thing is though, all of these checks, bar Porygon-2, are beat by the specially offensive set, which is what makes Mega Salamence ever so hard to deal with.

Some might say that the metagame can adapt, using some lesser-used Pokemon to take it on, but in my honest opinion, that would slow down the evolution of the metagame incredibly much. If you want to see Porygon-2 used on every single team, you are going to be looking at a stale, and boring, metagame. Mega Salamence is a powerhouse, which quickly resulted in it being used on every other team. The over-centralization is just like with Mega Mawile, just 10x times worse, as revenge killing Mega Salamence is far from easy. Basically, keeping Mega Salamence is the tier would heavily limit teambuilding, and this was the reason we banned Aegislash and Mega Mawile in XY, right?

However, quick banning it means we won't get to see how the metagame would adapt Mega Salamence. We have, in a way, got to see that by the pre-game ladder, but seeing how the metagame would settle could bring us different point of views. I haven't been around for long enough to have experienced any other quick bans, so I don't know how the situations were in earlier games. Mabye innovative sets, raises and drops in usage, and new teambuiling structures could lessen the problem everyone has with Mega Salamence at the moment. While this seems teampting, it of course has a catch. Because of its raw power and bulk, builing around to handle is incredibly hard, which again, as i stated, would slow down the evolution of the metagame. If only Mega Salamence was a little more underpowered, this could be a hard question, but with the current standings, I think it is a no-brainer: Quick Ban
 
I've noticed the following arguments have come up against quickbanning MegaMence and I thought I would try and help debunk them early on:
1. Pokemon X and Y are good checks to MegaMence, so it's not broken
The main issue is that most of the checks are only good checks under the assumption that Mega Mence is running a particular set. Your Skarmory will not appreciate Fire Blast and your Rhyperior will not appreciate Hydro Pump. Not only that, but I'm willing to bet your list of decent checks to MegaMence is very small. That means that a Mega Sal user only has to deal with a small number of checks during teambuilding and an even smaller number of checks in battle to be able to sweep, especially since most of the checks lack any sort of real core synergy. As others have said, in terms of what needs to be accounted for during teambuilding and in battle for a MegaMence users, MegaMence users have to deal with far less of the meta than the rest of us who have to pack at least 2 MegaMence killers just to have a shot against a good MegaMence user.

2. Just burn it or paralyse it and it's crippled
There are so many ways around it. If it's behind a sub, neither method works. The party can carry a cleric. Heck if the Mega Sal user wants he could run Refresh on it and just wait until the Status inflictors are dead to use it. This is an unreliable way to deal with Mega Sal and should not really be brought up as a counter argument.

3. We need more time to actually see it on the ladder and see if it can be countered easily.
Haven't we had like a month already? How much more time do we need?

As for my sentiments, I think everything that needs to be said has already been said (props to -Clone- for the particularly well-worded post). Like many others, I see no reason why we can't quick ban it given that I haven't seen any particularly good counter-arguments come up in any ORAS thread.
 
The evidence is that it's a very centralizing pokemon. It has very few checks and none of them are truly safe from the diversity in it's movepool.

I see Mega mence as a 'Use or suffer' situation. If you don't use one, you're going to have to tailor a larger than comfortable chunk of your team in order to avoid being swept by it, which inevitably leaves your team weak to other high rank threats in OU.

All in all it's likely to create an unhealthy meta with very little variety between teams.
And since we've had an ORAS OU beta and have seen how it dominates the meta there is no reason not to ban it.
 
How is this even questionable?
This thing is like mMaw on steroids. It's so incredibly easy to use it's not even funny.
145 Atk + Aerialate (however you spell that shit) is insane. However, if that was where it stopped, I'd be okay with it. Combine the fact it comes in on ANY physical attacker not named banded weavile/mamo and sets up in its face is ridiculous. It has no counters outside of extremely niche ones, and the fact Scarfed Ninja is a thing is an indication of insane overcentralization.

TLDR; Why go through Chemo when you can just remove the cancerous tumor?
 

Croven

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To be honest, I think that the ORAS OU ladder has proven just how much MegaMence is over centralizing and overpowered. Its combination of incredibly high bulk, incredibly high Attack, incredibly high Speed, and an incredibly vast movepool. I see very, very few reasons that Mence should not be quickbanned, or at the least suspected.

First, off, let's bring in his immense bulk, something that was a bit of a wild card when MegaMence was announced. It has 95/130/90 bulk, which is extraordinary for any Pokemon, be it a wall, tank, sweeper, wallbreaker, etc. It has higher Defense than Slowbro (not mega of course), and coupled with Intimidate, it can set up on pretty much the entire physical spectrum of the metagame. I can't provide calcs atm, for reasons we all know, so I'm just going to go off of what I remember. It sets up on fully invested Landorus-T, who has a sky high 145 Atk stat, for those who forgot. Besides Mamoswine and Weavile, M-Mence can just DD and go off on any physical attacker, which is just stupid for a sweeper with an Attack stat of 145, coupled with Aerilate. Can even Azumarill 2hko this, if it has HP and Defense investment? It's possible, but all Mence has to do is DD once, and then fish for a miss, or just KO it with a +1 Aerilate Return. His decent 90 SpDef and Dragon typing can also let him set up on a wide array of the special metagame, such as Keldeo, Landorus, Charizard formes, etc. Dragon typing gives him an incredible amount of resists, and with his 95/90 bulk, it'll let him get up a DD or two, which is all he needs to obliterate an opposing team. Point is, incredibly stupid bulk lets him set up on an incredibly stupid amount of mons and then threaten them with an incredibly stupid Attack stat coupled with an incredibly stupid ability in Aerilate.

Second, that Attack stat is the complement to its insane bulk. 145 base Atk along with one of the most powerful abilities in Aerilate puts his Attack at sky high levels. After 1 or 2 DD's (which is incredibly easy to obtain, thanks to his bulk which i mentioned previously), it 2HKO'es almost the entire tier, barring very bulky resists (Zapdos, Skarm, etc). This is true for a lot of good sweepers, so I guess it isn't as incredible itself. However, this Attack that many, many OU sweepers are jealous of, with the incredible bulk needed to set up, and finally the Speed to outspeed all relevant Scarfers (bar Greninja LOL), make it inherently broken.

Lastly, as if that wasn't even enough, this monster has a movepool wider than the ocean itself. Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Outrage, Return, Roost, DD, Refresh, Substitute, Hyper Voice, etc. This is just the icing on the cake. It completely makes this Dragon one of the most broken things that OU has ever seen. This movepool (along with a very good 120 Special Attack stat) makes it incredibly versatile, and allows for so much creativity with this, that teams that may be built to counter the SubDD set (which is definitely the best and most used set, which is hard to counter in itself), it'd just get shredded by any other set that this thing can run. Rhyperior? Hydro Pump. Skamory? Fire Blast. Electrics? Outrage. Now, admittedly, this case is slightly different than Greninja, who can run whatever the hell it wants and still kill shit. True, sets become subpar, but it can be worth it to just obliterate a said "counter" and then proceed to sweep the opposing team. Its unpredictability is just too insane, and this sends it wayyy over the edge. Point is, his movepool is just too expansive to even consider in OU, especially with his stats.

I have to cut this short, not enough time right now. Sorry if I made the post incredibly long, but I felt like ranting about Mence (and it's my first post that is actually contributing to something), so feel free to point out flaws in my points, etc etc. Anyway, my main point is Mega Salamence for Quick Ban. His bulk, Speed, Attack, ability, and movepool is just too much for OU to handle. This thing needs to go.
 
After watching it being played constantly in various of ways, the only real counter for mence is mence. Mega mence, truly needs to just be quick banned. Yes you have some counters like ninja, but the thing is this thing legit takes everything out. Nothing stops it, and it's absolutely terrifying to play against. I mean yeah you can play around it but everyone either runs the standard sub dd mence or bulky mence, and with this being in the meta it's the only things kids will use. It's like going back to the beginning where you won't see diversified teams because everyone's objective is the same and that's to win.
Greninja can't counter, scarf Greninja is a shaky revenge killer.

This guy has everything going for him, great bulk, which is boosted further by intimidate, the movepool to do everything he wants and turn everything into a soft check(there are no counters) and reliable recovery on top.

As sand teams have shown us he doesn't need to be the ace of the team, he can just demolish some stuff go down and let the rest of the team do whatever they want with impunity.

It's versatility, sheer power, bulk, and the fact that it makes every team better just by sitting there makes him the most over centralized mega OU has seen. This thing is a Lucario, Aegislash, Mawile love child in the way it accomplish a losing condition to the other player and a disturbing amount if momentum killing just by coming in.

This thing needs to go. Quick ban this over centralizing lizard.
 
Hi everyone, this is my first message but I red this forum for a while, sorry if I make some mistake in the rules of posting here.

Anyway, MegaMence has certainly a huge power in this meta and makes a lot of pressure against unprepared teams! I think that neither a well prepared team against it can deal with it without sacrifices. The common bulky set dd/return/sub/roost is very difficult to deal with and the force of this monster is the versatility of way how it can be played. Counter Skarmory is a good counter but Fire Blast take it down easy and we can make more examples just like this.

Anyway I really didn't have so much trouble to deal with it, but maybe enemies hadn't well prepared team and didn't play it so well as we may expect. Scarf Ninja is maybe the best counter of Mence, but you can't play it without the sacrifice of a mon.

Get the Mence in Uber tier #quickban

P.s. Sorry for some english mistakes :--)
 

Adamant Zoroark

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We all knew Mega Salamence would get banned since the day it was announced. Come on, we all knew this will result in a quickban.

I mean, come on, we're looking at something with no hard counters and only a handful of checks, and Mega Salamence has the bulk to set up with ease. Oh, but don't forget that Mega Salamence has 120 base Speed, so it'll outspeed just about every standard Choice Scarf user. Good luck checking this thing through speed, so your best bet is through taking a hit. Zapdos, Skarmory (and even then Skarmory won't enjoy a Fire Blast if Mence has it), Rotom-W (pretty sure I saw a replay of SubDDMegaMence beating this thing pretty easily), Slowbro, hell, even Mega Aerodactyl can take one hit and that's your best bet if you're running offense which usually can't afford to run the former four Pokemon.

Mega Salamence is so good that you have no reason not to run it unless you're running Mega Aerodactyl to check the damn thing in the first place (or you're using a stall team.) But you really don't need to use the "No reason not to run it" argument to justify a quickban. Mega Salamence can set up and sweep with little to no effort thanks to its great bulk and amazing Speed which allows it to outrun nearly everything including Choice Scarf users. This meets the Generation IV offensive characteristic of an Uber, and while those aren't used anymore, they are still a solid indicator of what's probably broken. We're looking at something that's fast enough to sweep even through most Choice Scarf users (people are actually running Choice Scarf Greninja just to check this thing), bulky enough to set up with ease, and powerful enough to actually hit hard while sweeping. Is Mega Salamence Meta Knight?
 
This mega salamence problem reminds of the salamence problem in late gen 4 hg/ss.What made it uber was lack of revenge killers and insane coverage (no immunity outrage, fireblast and eq). This caused cb scizor usage to skyrocket, being 1 of the few things able to ohko mence after rocks.
Fast forward 2 gens and we find this problem repeating itself. It got the speed it needed to no longer be outclassed by chomp/lati@s and insane bulk. It got even a better main stab, flying gets no immunities, backed by a greater attack stat with essentially a life orb boost.
Intimidate coupled with a ridiculous base 140 defensive stat, make it come in on any physical attackers and set up. This trait also makes revenge killing far more difficult.

Defensive checks namely landorus-t become set up bait as roost gets rid of its stone edge/rock slide weakness. Skarmory can sort of beat mono flying mence, but it'd need to be carrying counter. Ferrothorn gets 2hkoed by +1 return by the same set.
In order to beat status, refresh is a utilized option and it lives a x4 weak priority move. I once lost a game I was certain i'd win, because my opp was running Max defensive salamence and my ice shard from weavile did 60%.

in short it has the tools to beat anything stopping it from sweeping entire teams, and for this it should be auto-banned.
 
When scarf Noivern is seeing legitimate use in OU, you have a problem. There is no realistic argument for keeping Mega Salamence, it's extremely broken on all fronts. The physical bulk really is the main issue that pushes it over the edge because with intimidate + boosted base 130 defence is sets up for free on so many pokemon. I don't really want to go on as everything has already been said already, but when you can tank a -1 super effective outrage from Garchomp rather comfortably and use it as setup bait, uh, yeah.

Think about it for a minute, when have we ever seen a pokemon this broken in OU? I know that question is relative to each generation, but even with that considered I would say that Mega Salamence might be one of the most broken things we have ever seen. It's literally better than half of the ubers tier. It certainly dwarfs things like Mega Lucario and Blaziken, and is even more ridiculous than Mega Khan which is seriously saying something when you consider that parental bond is mind numbingly stupid.

I honestly wish it wasn't this good because I was really looking forward to seeing Metagross and Salamence become great threats once again, but I guess it's only Metagross that will see the light of OU. Mega Salamence has a really cool design too, not silly, not ugly, just extremely menacing and badass. *Sigh* Quickban. Lol it's going to be gone before we get to enjoy its 3D animations.
 
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